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Common ground

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by Angelina, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    The key word here Oz, would be 'seems', but you ought to know me well enough by now to know that I don't define myself by labels like you're trying to do here.
    Obviously God initiated salvation, and he draws us to Jesus, but it is our choice as to whether we accept Jesus or not. It's pretty simple, and I haven't said anything that would justify your conclusions. I also don't label myself as an Arminian. If you only understand people based on old doctrine, then you really don't understand people. I believe in predestination exactly as it is defined in the New Testament and as I have already indicated to Angelina. There is no other kind of predestination that would make us as puppets. We made have been programmed to know God as Paul teaches in Romans 1, but that is as far as it goes.
    Our free will as a matter of submission to God or not. Always has been, always will be.
     
  2. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    You are concluding that God giving something requires it be pre programmed to do something, and you would of course, be wrong. Paul clearly teaches that predestination is always foreshadowed by foreknowledge. Just as Paul teaches that there is an order to the gifts of the Spirit in the church, there is also an order in the way God does things. He created Adam and Eve, and even though in our view they failed, we are where we're at.
    God was, is, always has been the initiator. That doesn't mean that there is only one way for us to respond, as if we were robots.
    Grace is grace, but it still requires actuve participation. If one refuses to participate, for ANY reason, it is their choice, they are NOT predestined or pre-programned to do so.
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Stan,

    Pejorative language doesn't work with me.

    You say, 'I believe in predestination exactly as it is defined in the New Testament'. And what is that? Are you telling me that your understanding of predestination is the only correct New Testament version?

    Your view still fits best with the teaching of Semi-Pelagianism. You may not like labels, but eventually you will need to come down on the side of one of them - Augustinian, Arminian or some other view.

    You say 'it's pretty simple'. Try telling that to those who debate Calvin's vs Arminius's views. And you've been among those who debate such issues.

    Oz
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    .
     
  5. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Define "Those whom he foreknew in this passage?" I believe that the writer speaking, is an Apostle because further down it says ~ As it is written,

    “For your sake we are being killed all day long;
    we are accounted as sheep to be slaughtered.” Romans 8:36

    It kinda confirms my belief that the Apostles whom God foreknew, were predestined to become his disciples, then his Apostles who preached the good news of salvation through Jesus, which was received by everyone else.


    True...

    I did not know Luke wrote Hebrews 6:4-6... :huh: and is not the writer speaking to Jewish believers who desire to fall back into following the law???
     
  6. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Typically you deflect with accusations Oz. It is becoming increasingly tedious to deal with your fallacious assertions when you can't or won't answer simple questions and choose to deflect in this manner.

    Your opinion doesn't make it so, it's just your opinion, and as I've said many times, I don't subscribe to any of the doctrines you name regardless of what you think.

    It definitely is pretty simple and for the most part people that I debate with about Calvinism, cuz I don't claim to be Arminian, usually end up walking away and not being able to defend themselves. Now how about you answer my questions instead of deflecting to other issues?
     
  7. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Yes indeed, Paul is an apostle, called of Jesus just like all the other apostles were. Paul is quoting Ps 44:22 in v36, so I'm not really sure what you're looking for?

    No, Paul is talking about those that love Jesus. That means they have accepted him as their Savior. So yes it can or does include the apostles, but is directed at all those who have accepted Jesus as Paul himself states here. Paul shows here that we are called after we are predestined. As I said, throughout the New Testament foreknowledge always precedes predestination.

    Yes, through what I have read and studied, Luke wrote Hebrews. Here it is referring to apostasy but not necessarily falling back into following the law, although that could be a form of apostasy. Hebrews is directed at all believers, not just Jewish converts.
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Stan,

    Go back to #81 where you said of me, 'If you only understand people based on old doctrine, then you really don't understand people'. You are goading me and that is not supposed to be allowed on CyB. I hope one of the moderators will deal with your kind of language towards me.

    Have I ever said you were an Arminian? No, I said you seem (a word I used deliberately) to be semi-Pelagian in your understanding of salvation.

    Oz
     
  9. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    And you should know better than to say so, when it isn't. In my opinion it is your disingenuous way of trying to start arguments. You read enough of my posts to know that I have never exposed any of the doctrines you indicated. So why do? I'm not goading you, but then again you apparently don't understand what goading is?
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Stan,

    I do know what goading is and you've done it here again. Oxford dictionaries gives the definition of 'goad' as, 'Provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate an action or reaction' (2016. s v goad). I will not be providing any answers to you until you quit your goading of me.

    Oz
     
  11. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Then I suggest you look in the mirror, because you're the one doing all the goading, when you reply to my posts with the type of condescending or self-serving responses that you do. Asking you direct questions is not goading, it's just addressing your obvious intentions.
     
  12. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Scripture written from the O/T prophets were being fulfilled during the times of the Apostles because everything prior to the death and resurrection of Christ was pointing toward Christ and everything written after were pointing toward the Apostles teaching and eternal life through Christ. I think Paul is speaking about His followers and those who believe in him through their word. JMO

    I think you will find plenty of opposition from various scholars who believe otherwise. Many advocate the position that Hebrews were written by Paul. I beg to differ and believe that Hebrews was written by Peter simply because Peter was called to the Jewish community rather than the Gentiles.

    Bless ya!
     
  13. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    You've kind of done a left turn here, what does this have to do with predestination?


    Well I didn't say there wasn't any opposition to it I said it is widely accepted that Luke is considered the forerunner now. The following book makes a lot of points in that regard. From my perspective and having read it for so many years, Hebrews is much more Lukan that it is Pauline.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=iB65AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=Lukan+authorship+of+Jesus&source=bl&ots=6spZwYn7_j&sig=DQnuUBnJ6J3VW2zw_j9RBtQ78mw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjynL7Siq3LAhUBE2MKHUmhCd0Q6AEIJTAD#v=onepage&q=Lukan%20authorship%20of%20Jesus&f=false
     
  14. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Possibly because I haven't been here for a few days and forgot where my thoughts were leading toward... :unsure:


    ...no you didn't however, it came across like it was a fact...and it ain't :huh: IMHO I think Hebrews could just as easily have been written by Peter.. :unsure:
     
  15. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Bin dare dun dat! :p

    Well that could very well be, as I am VERY convinced about the evidence I've read. :) You should give the book a go.
     
  16. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    what book???? :unsure:
     
  17. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    The book I posted the link to in # 93 above.
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Angelina,

    Who do you think these early church fathers regarded as writing the Book of Hebrews. See HERE
     
  19. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

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    IMO, Hebrews 2:3 prohibits the book to have been written by someone who walked with Jesus personally or Paul (who spoke with Jesus in visions).

    “how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,” (Hebrews 2:3, ESV)
     
  20. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    I totally agree, which is why Luke would also fulfill this, as all of his knowledge of Jesus was second hand.
     
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