Common ground

[Wormwood]

I think it would be interesting to discuss our common belief in the physical resurrection of the dead (starting with Christ) and how that impacts our theology, daily lives and eschatology.

 

[OzSpen]

I think it would be interesting to discuss our common belief in the physical resurrection of the dead (starting with Christ) and how that impacts our theology, daily lives and eschatology.

Would this forum of 'Inter-faith Discussion' be the appropriate directory for a discussion on the bodily resurrection of Christ and the bodily resurrection of believers in the future? I'm thinking of a passage such as 1 Corinthians 15:12-23 (ESV):

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope[a] in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Where is the appropriate place for a thread with a title such as, 'Jesus' bodily resurrection guarantees saints' bodily resurrection'.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

I think it would be interesting to discuss our common belief in the physical resurrection of the dead (starting with Christ) and how that impacts our theology, daily lives and eschatology.

I've never heard of any Christian that doesn't believe in the resurrection, but hey go for it!

 

[Wormwood]

Hey there,

I know that there are many denominations on this forum but I am interested in finding out how many of us actually believe in things that would be generally accepted as common Christian beliefs and practices. :huh:


Your thoughts?

I was just going off the OP. Seems like the thought behind this thread was to discussing things that are common Christian beliefs. I assume we all believe in the resurrection of Jesus and future resurrection of the just and unjust. Just thought we could pick through the implications of that.

For instance, Paul points to the reality of the resurrection of Jesus as God's means of determining that Jesus would be judge of the world (Acts 17:31). Also, Matthew's account of the resurrected Christ shows Jesus declaring to his disciples that due to his resurrection "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go..." Also, I was reflecting on Revelation 11:6 (which I believe is referring to the Church) and how we have been given power in our witness of the risen Christ to impact the world spiritually in profound ways. Your thoughts on this? What are the implications of a bodily resurrection of Jesus and our future resurrection?

 

[OzSpen]

I was just going off the OP. Seems like the thought behind this thread was to discussing things that are common Christian beliefs. I assume we all believe in the resurrection of Jesus and future resurrection of the just and unjust. Just thought we could pick through the implications of that.

For instance, Paul points to the reality of the resurrection of Jesus as God's means of determining that Jesus would be judge of the world (Acts 17:31). Also, Matthew's account of the resurrected Christ shows Jesus declaring to his disciples that due to his resurrection "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go..." Also, I was reflecting on Revelation 11:6 (which I believe is referring to the Church) and how we have been given power in our witness of the risen Christ to impact the world spiritually in profound ways. Your thoughts on this? What are the implications of a bodily resurrection of Jesus and our future resurrection?

Wormwood,

I think you still have to clear away the debris of bodily vs metaphorical resurrections before we can get to what the resurrection of Jesus was and belief in its necessity for salvation to be obtained (I'm jumping ahead of myself).

Kimberley Winston obtained a comment from Professor Scott Korb of New York University, aged 37 at the time, a non-practicing Catholic, who moved from a literal to a symbolic resurrection. His concept of the resurrection is, ‘What I mean is that we can reach the lowest points of our lives, of going deep into a place that feels like death, and then find our way out again — that’s the story the Resurrection now tells me. And at Easter, this is expressed in community, and at its best, through the compassion of others’. Korb rejects ‘the miracle of a bodily resurrection’. For Korb, this change from literal to metaphorical resurrection ‘has given the story more power’. For him the metaphorical view allows people to return to the story year after year and find new meaning in it.

Winston turned to retired Episcopal, unorthodox, liberal bishop, John Shelby Spong and his ‘famously liberal interpretation of Christianity in his 1995 book, Resurrection: Myth or Reality? that ‘caused a dust-up’ with his question, ‘Does Christianity fall unless a supernatural miracle can be established?’ Spong’s answer is, ‘No’ when he rejected the physical resuscitation interpretation in favour of, ‘I think it means the life of Jesus was raised back into the life of God, not into the life of this world, and that it was out of this that his presence’ (not his physical body) was manifested to certain witnesses’. [This information is taken from my article,Junk you hear at Easter about Jesus’ resurrection].

Oz

Works consulted
Winston, K 2014. Can you question the resurrection and still be a Christian? National Catholic Reporter (from Religion News Service), April 17. Available at: http://ncronline.org/news/theology/can-you-question-resurrection-and-still-be-christian (Accessed 15 April 2016).

 

[Wormwood]

Oz,

Yes, I understand that seeing the resurrection as a merely symbolic act is prevalent among some liberals. I think that is what would make our conversation on the topic so encouraging as I am sure we would all reject such nonsense. I think Paul addresses this question about as directly and powerfully as one possibly could in 1 Cor. 15. I would not consider a person a Christian if they do not believe in a literal bodily resurrection. Even an atheist understands this. Consider this account with renowned atheist Christopher Hitchens...

During a recent trip to Portland, Oregon, noted atheist Christopher Hitchens laid down some seriously good theology. Most people recognize Hitchens as the author of the bestselling bookGod Is Not Great: Why Religion Poisons Everything. Since the book's publication in 2007, Hitchens has toured the country debating a series of religious leaders, including some well-known evangelical thinkers. In Portland he was interviewed by Unitarian minister Marilyn Sewell. The entire transcript of the interview has been posted online. The following exchange took place near the start of the interview:

Sewell: The religion you cite in your book is generally the fundamentalist faith of various kinds. I'm a liberal Christian, and I don't take the stories from the Scripture literally. I don't believe in the doctrine of atonement (that Jesus died for our sins, for example). Do you make any distinction between fundamentalist faith and liberal religion?

Hitchens: I would say that if you don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah, and that he rose again from the dead and by his sacrifice our sins are forgiven, you're really not in any meaningful sense a Christian.

Sewell wanted no part of that discussion so her next words are, "Let me go someplace else."
This little snippet demonstrates an important point about religious "God-talk." You can call yourself anything you like, but if you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for our sins and then rose from the dead, you are not "in any meaningful sense" a Christian.
Dr. Ray Pritchard, "Christopher Hitchens Gets it Exactly Right," KeepBelieving.com (2-1-10)

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Yes, I understand that seeing the resurrection as a merely symbolic act is prevalent among some liberals. I think that is what would make our conversation on the topic so encouraging as I am sure we would all reject such nonsense. I think Paul addresses this question about as directly and powerfully as one possibly could in 1 Cor. 15. I would not consider a person a Christian if they do not believe in a literal bodily resurrection. Even an atheist understands this. Consider this account with renowned atheist Christopher Hitchens...

WW,

N T Wright has written one of the most detailed expositions on The Resurrection of the Son of God (Fortress Press 2003) that I have read. He takes a different approach to you.


In an interview with Sam Hailes of eden.co.uk, Wright was asked (followed by his answer):

6. You’ve argued strongly that Jesus physically rose from the dead as a historical event. Do you have to believe this teaching in order to be a Christian?

Anyone who is in any sense a Christian cannot with any consistency believe that Jesus stayed dead. I have friends and colleagues who I know to be praying Christians who worship regularly and lead lives of practical Christian love and service but who really struggle with the bodily resurrection. I would say that looks like a muddled Christian who needs to be put straight. Of course some of them would say exactly that about me!

But if you say Jesus died and nothing happened but the disciples had some interesting ideas, then you have cut off the branch on which all classic Christianity is sitting. This generation needs to wake up, smell the coffee and realise serious Christianity begins when Jesus comes out of the tomb on Easter morning. This is not a nice optional extra for those who like believing in funny things. (available at: 'People have very odd ideas about Jesus' 2015).

Discussion on the nature of Jesus' resurrection and the consequences of such a belief could provide some fruitful or contentious discussion.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, there are a number of issues that I disagree with in regards to NT Wright's theology. He is a brilliant man, but I think some of his theological leanings will prove to be very problematic. In any event, I think the bodily resurrection is an area of essential belief and not just someone who is "muddled." In Romans 4, Paul seems to make the case that what made Abraham's faith transformative was its confidence in the notion that God gives life to the dead and believed in that which seemed beyond hope:

“as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”” (Romans 4:17–18, ESV)

As I see it, if a person cannot trust that God can raise the dead, then they have no faith...at least not the faith that would call them a child of Abraham. The bodily resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental precept of the Christian faith. Not only is it a view which is void of faith, but as I see it, any view of the NT that can see the narratives in this regard as sheer hyperbole or allegory is a hermeneutic that severely undermines Scriptural authority in every way.

 

[StanJ]

IMO, there is no doubt at all as to the validity and reality of the Resurrection. This issue is not a new testament one but was the sole difference between Sadducees and Pharisees. Jesus arrested many times as did Paul in many of his letters. In fact Paul's words were that he did not want Believers to be ignorant of what was to come and made a concerted effort to clearly demonstrate that the resurrection will directly follow Jesus' return.

It seems to be a common ground issue here at CB, as no one has disputed otherwise?

 

[StanJ]

Now how about the Bible?

I for one accept without reservation that our current Canon of scripture, although not directly translated from autographs, is inspired/God breathed.
It is our Arbitrator in all things Christian.

Can I get an amen?

 

[lforrest]

Now how about the Bible?
I for one accept without reservation that our current Canon of scripture, although not directly translated from autographs, is inspired/God breathed.
It is our Arbitrator in all things Christian.
Can I get an amen?

With or without the Apocrypha?

 

[StanJ]

With or without the Apocrypha?

Without.

 

[lforrest]

Without.

Then you may have an amen.

 

[OzSpen]

Now how about the Bible?

I for one accept without reservation that our current Canon of scripture, although not directly translated from autographs, is inspired/God breathed.
It is our Arbitrator in all things Christian.

Can I get an amen?

Now how about the Bible?

I for one accept without reservation that our current Canon of scripture, although not directly translated from autographs, is inspired/God breathed.
It is our Arbitrator in all things Christian.

Can I get an amen?

I will give an amen to the canon in the autographa (original manuscripts). We do not have it, but we have a very good representation of it in English, but it's not the original language.

I will not say Amen to the Apocrypha being in the autographa of the canon.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Look at that! 4, count em 4, AMENS! Does this mean we have consensus?

 

[lforrest]

Look at that! 4, count em 4, AMENS! Does this mean we have consensus?

There is a first time for everything.

 

[Angelina]

There is a first time for everything.

Amen...

 

[Angelina]

It would be interesting to find out how many times various churches did communion. Our small Pentecostal church did communion once a fortnight and the Pastor would choose various members of our congregation to lead the service and choose the ushers if needed...

 

[StanJ]

It would be interesting to find out how many times various churches did communion. Our small Pentecostal church did communion once a fortnight and the Pastor would choose various members of our congregation to lead the service and choose the ushers if needed...

All the congregations I've ever been in since I was saved did it once a month.

 

[OzSpen]

It would be interesting to find out how many times various churches did communion. Our small Pentecostal church did communion once a fortnight and the Pastor would choose various members of our congregation to lead the service and choose the ushers if needed...

Most Baptist churches here in Brisbane that are affiliated with the Baptist Union celebrate the Lord's Supper once a month, as do Wesleyan Methodist churches. Presbyterians do it once every 3 months. In the last years of their lives, my parents attended a Christian Brethren assembly and they took the Lord's Supper every week. Some Pentecostal churches celebrate it weekly.

Oz