Confidence or Arrogance?

[mjrhealth]

Hmmm, funny how you think Christ would disagree with and contradict what the Spirit of Christ had previously revealed as truth to His own prophets.

Christ contradict nothingit is men and there foolishness.

It is grace we are saved by faith, it is a gift, and the law has noting to do with salvation, just arrogance and pride of man.

All the religions of the world tell us there way is the only way, Christ told man that He is. But many trying to entrr in via the back door.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Just another religious man refusing to leave His religion for Christ.

Mat_6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[brakelite]

the law has noting to do with salvation

Actually, that is far from the truth. Our own works has nothing to do with salvation, sure, but God's commandments? In Revelation 12:17 nd 14:6 we are given a description of God's people in contradistinction to those who receive the mark of the beast...those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. You will not find a verse anywhere in scripture saying what you would like it to say...that the law has nothing to do with salvation. How can you claim to be saved therefore when Christ fulfilled the law in order to save?

 

[mjrhealth]

How can you claim to be saved therefore when Christ fulfilled the law in order to save?

Simple, I trust God dont you, and please, show me one man who keeps His commandments, just one man besides Christ, you wont find one not on this earth, plenty of deceivers, hypocrites who claim they do, but not one that does.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Indeed, we speak when we are really led by God to so and we remain silent whenever we are ignorant or God so leads us.

Actually this is not saying we speak when lead by God to do so.
It is saying when ever we speak we speak the truth.

 

[mjrhealth]

It is saying when ever we speak we speak the truth.

We do?? whos truth might that be,?? Every religious organization upon this earth, claims to have the truth, there are very few Christians who would say they dont have all the truth, the only "truth" I know is Christ so it is Him i will believe.

 

[brakelite]

Simple, I trust God dont you

Trust God to do what exactly? And yes, I trust God. Without Him I am nothing. Without Him I can do nothing.

show me one man who keeps His commandments

I cannot do that, but in heaven, I will show you plenty...in fact, it will be everyone who is there. How can I say that with so much confidence? Because scripture is clear that outside the gates are the murderers, the adulterers, the liars, the thieves, the idol worshipers...in other words mjr, no one will be given entrance who doesn't obey God's commandments. Now the question next is quite obvious, when one considers our weakness and lack of personal holiness and righteousness. HOW???

 

[brakelite]

show me one man who keeps His commandments,

You say the law has nothing to do with salvation. What means this then...
"for love fulfills the law". Your challenge above that I should show you one man who keeps the commandments. Now I don't know anyone well enough to judge either way. Do you? On another note, are you suggesting that it cannot be done, to keep God's commandments?

 

[mjrhealth]

Trust God to do what exactly? And yes, I trust God. Without Him I am nothing. Without Him I can do nothing.

Very much agree.

I cannot do that, but in heaven, I will show you plenty...in fact, it will be everyone who is there. How can I say that with so much confidence? Because scripture is clear that outside the gates are the murderers, the adulterers, the liars, the thieves, the idol worshipers...in other words mjr, no one will be given entrance who doesn't obey God's commandments. Now the question next is quite obvious, when one considers our weakness and lack of personal holiness and righteousness. HOW???

I asked you to show me one that Keeps His commandments. just one, is it not so hard...

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Please just one.

as for Righteousness, the only Righteousness that matters is His,

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

i can go on, but your flesh will never be satisfied.

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,..

we know where you stand

Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[mjrhealth]

On another note, are you suggesting that it cannot be done, to keep God's commandments?

It cant I wait for you to show me just one, you cant even keep the Sabbath without profaning it, for the Sabbath is resting from ones own works, and the law is guess what, ones own works.

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Forgot one thing, next time you got to your sabbath meeting all dressed up in your finest outfit, just stop and take a hard look in the mirror, and when you stand there long enough, you will realize that all you can see is the outside of the cup.

When I did attend church many years ago, in summer it was shorts t-shirt and sandals, because I didnt go to impress men, for God showed me a long time ago, that no matter how many layers of clothing you throw on yourself, He can see through it all.

 

[brakelite]

I wait for you to show me just one

Am I God that I should divide the sheep from the goats?

 

[Dave L]

I would hope not. If someone is genuine in searching for truth, and trusting in God and not in their own understanding, then I would be amazed it took so long for God to reveal to such an earnest searcher where to go. For me, it took two weeks for God to start revealing truths I had never seen in previous denominations I had been committed to, and the direction He wanted me to take. It actually was my own distrust of that direction and my own ignorance that it took me 5 years to commit to the actual denomination that taught all the truths that I had discovered.
Since then I discovered I was not the only one who held such a prejudice. Once I got past that, honesty compelled me to admit that my church not only taught truth as I had read in scripture, but also welcomed challenges and debate. Your inference that all denominations 'demand blind obedience" seems to me a very general brush stroke my personal experience rejects.
I have found in my experience on this forum an actual reluctance to seriously debate specific doctrines that are more unique to my denomination. Folk prefer to denounce my church than to discuss what we actually teach. The old "shoot the messenger" trip.

The problem BL is that every denomination indoctrinates their subjects. And it is the error they revolve around that divides them from the rest of the body of Christ into being a denomination. And from that point on their members only see things their way when reading the bible.

 

[Dave L]

I see problems in denominational bias also. Yet in my own, more so than in any other, there is robust debate, discussion, and study on all aspects of scripture where many do disagree with the official guidelines of the church. This is as it should be. Our church's guidelines are just that. Not a creed whereupon fellowship is awarded or rejected, but simply a genuine summary of belief that will always be open to further revelation.
I also see problems in bias against denominations. A failure to agree with a denominations understanding of scripture because "you see" things different, and you put it down to "their denominational bias" when all along it may be your own. Non-denominationalism is in fact the largest denomination, and by its very nature is prejudiced against other denominations. The difference between yours and mine, is mine is at least relatively uniform in beliefs...but not as you suppose because it is demanded, but people join it because that is what they already have discovered for themselves. Very few are born into my denomination, though there are families that go back several generations. They join often from others as a result of searching for more than what their previous denomination offered.

You reject the law...therefore in you is no light. Isaiah 8:20

All denominations have common truth. But the reason they exist is because of the errors that divide them from the rest of the body of Christ. So in knowing this, I take a little here and a little there, learning from each, but never learning about the others from one point of view.

 

[Dave L]

Not my experience.

You will not find too many that studied independently for years before choosing a Church or belief system. Most of the forums I've read over the years are indoctrinated individuals debating indoctrinated individuals. None ever studying beyond their own self imposed limits.

 

[Dave L]

You’re WRONG! Not sure how, but i thought i would contribute

I would offer a reward for any you can produce who studied independently before choosing a denomination. Most debates are not between Christians, but between the denominationally indoctrinated. You cannot debate truth if all know the truth.

 

[marks]

this is the beauity of Diversified Oneness,
#1. the Son Standing in the water at his baptism is the "Share" of God in flesh, per Phil 2:6-8.

#2. the Holy Spirit desending in the likeness as a Dove.

#3. what I'm about to say is not for argument .. ok, but for scriptual FACTS. please show from the bible that the Voice at the baptimal is the Voice of God. remember, not argument but for seeking TRUTH. and we cannot afford any assumptions.

now when you get that scripture proving that the "Voice" at the Lord's Baptism is God's voice, if you will answer me this,

in John 1:3 reconcicle it with Isaiah 44:24 as to who "made" all things. is this the same person or not.

with your answer it will answer your question at the same time.... and when you do, you will see "Diversified Oneness" clearly.
Love in Christ Jesus,

PICJAG.

Hi PICJAG,

Thank you for running through this! Lest this turn to debate, per your request I'll leave it as is. But I do feel I understand your viewpoint better!

Much love!
Mark

 

[101G]

Hi PICJAG,

Thank you for running through this! Lest this turn to debate, per your request I'll leave it as is. But I do feel I understand your viewpoint better!

Much love!
Mark

this was not posted for a debate, nor argument, but enlightment by "discussion", but I don't want to hijack the OP topic. I have a discussion on this topic in "Jesus the Holy Spirit" in the debate forum.

but thanks for your understanding of the viewpoint better!

be blessed.

 

[mjrhealth]

Am I God that I should divide the sheep from the goats?

All i am asking you is for you to show me just one who keeps the law, Considering from Moses to today, not a single Jew who where given the law, and the sabbath as a covenant with God has ever being saved by the law, how is it that you think you can do it. How long has the SDA religion being around?? Yet still not one..

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What can the law not do,, ,Save anyone
WHat did the law do ...

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Our prisons are filled with people who tried and failed. All you are doing is walking in unbelief, and have no idea of what JEsus did nor God from His birth to now. Still living in the OT.

this bit

Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

you are mixing law with grace, the flesh with the Spirit and it killing you.

 

[brakelite]

I would offer a reward for any you can produce who studied independently before choosing a denomination.

I will put my hands up for that reward. Thanks. I produce me.

All i am asking you is for you to show me just one who keeps the law, Considering from Moses to today, not a single Jew who where given the law, and the sabbath as a covenant with God has ever being saved by the law, how is it that you think you can do it.

Interesting twist in terms here. At first you say "no-one can keep the law". Then you say "no-one has been saved by the law". So what is it we are talking about here?

• Whether anyone can obey God?
• Or whether anyone by obeying God can be saved?

There is a very big difference. Or are you suggesting something else?

 

[mjrhealth]

I will put my hands up for that reward. Thanks. I produce me.

Interesting twist in terms here. At first you say "no-one can keep the law". Then you say "no-one has been saved by the law". So what is it we are talking about here?

• Whether anyone can obey God?
• Or whether anyone by obeying God can be saved?

There is a very big difference. Or are you suggesting something else?

Well actually no there is no difference, see the Jews where never obedient to God by the law, have you not read,

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

and

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

again

Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

thats why

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

but keep working it will just tire you out.

as I said, all just unbelief...

 

[brakelite]

Well actually no there is no difference,

I think there is a term people use for this kind of denial...cognitive dissonance.
The concept of righteousness by faith has been explained to you so many times, and you keep jumping through hoops to deny its power to change lives. You deny the intent, the very work and purpose of the gospel: Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. You deny the power of God to change people's lives to such an extent that Romans 8:29 may be fulfilled.

In order to justify your twisted truth, you somehow deny that the image of Christ could be a life in harmony with the laws Christ obeyed. In order to substantiate and justify your lack of faith you need to make an indictment against any who does have the faith to believe that whatever they become...whatever they accomplish...whatever Christ accomplishes in and through them, is their own works of vanity and pride. You resent them because they refuse to partake of your presumptuous faith that says sinners can enter heaven...you exalt "love", then deny the power of love. You exalt "love", but deny what love really means. You deny its fulfillment of law, by trying to make love something that cannot recognise law. It must be incredibly difficult for you when you attempt to mentally cope with scriptures such as...
"If you love Me, keep My commandments"...
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love."..
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him"...'
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God....
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I have no doubt now that you will twist this around as if these were my own words, and not scripture. But I will tell you this one more time.
Receiving Christ is the same as receiving love...His Spirit...His life....His power.
Receiving those things brings forth fruit...one of which is a life and mind conformed to Christ...we have the mind of Christ. We walk as He walked. In love. And love fulfills the law. If the law was not being fulfilled in the life, then we do not have the love of Christ in the life. It is really that simple. The law can never be divorced from grace...it is grace that empowers us to keep the law...through the love of Christ in the soul. And the measure of our love will always be in comparison to the measure and stature and fulness of Christ...we are filled with His righteousness. Righteousness is not a cloak that covers sin/lawlessness...righteousness is the very life blood that flows into us through our connection to the Vine. It is the tyransforming power of the holy Spirit that radically changes lives and frees us from the bondage of sin and iniquity. Obedience therefore to the laws of God become a natural growth of our abiding in Christ...the fruits of righteousness displayed in our love for God, (the first 4 commandments) and our love for man, (the last 6, including the real depth as you described above...heart service...not just outward appearance.)