Contradiction Or Paradox?

[Marymog]

This is not a debate thread. I can't keep it from becoming one, of course, but let the record show that it was never my purpose for starting it.

I believe that most disagreements stem from either a refusal or lack of recognition that the solution involves accepting that God has the power to claim things which, if originating from humans, would be considered talking out of both sides of one's mouth.

For instance:

***And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved. (1 Corinthians 11:19


***Ephesians 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


I have chosen a mild example to start. But I have no doubt that the question of unity versus division could be debated at length on this forum. In this example, it seems to be that division is a temporarily necessary reality, but that unity should be the ultimate goal of the church.

I personally find the presence of paradox in Scripture quite fascinating.

Does anyone else have any examples of passages that seem to contradict each other, but are actually both quite true?

Hi,

In context the 1 Corinthians 11:19 passage is in regard to eating the Lords Supper as stated in vs 20. Paul then clears up the "differences" in vs 21-34. He says that those that do not "eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord". The ones that do eat/drink in a worthy manner are "approved" (vs 19). This ties in with the passages from Ephesions 4 that you quoted. 'We all come in the unity of the faith in all things when the whole body fitly joins together'. We cant' fit jointly together if some are eating the Lords Supper in an unworthy manner.

It seems to me that when Jesus called Peter satan that was contradicting many other passages written about Peter.

My two cents worth....Mary

 

[amadeus]

The paradox here is that Jesus, Who is fully God, can rest and work at the same time without violating the definition of either. He could not have sinned; otherwise, He could not be, as the Bible says, "without sin" (Hebrews 9:28).

The LORD GOD rested on the seventh day of creation week. Did the worlds hold themselves up during that day? Clearly, He was working while He was resting. Exodus 20 gives the example of this rest as God's rest on the inaugural 7th day of the creation week.

There was no change in the ten commandment law and if Jesus possessed an indestructible life, then He was not made in all things like unto His brethren (Hebrews 2:17).

We should break free from the boxes that we keep ourselves and God in and which cause us to say heinous things like "Jesus sinned."

Then again, what is "work" or "rest" to God? Are they same for men? Is there a carnal versus a spiritual work or rest? Jesus had no place to rest/lay his head.

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

Does this mean he did not rest his physical body at night or at all?

"And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish." Matt 8:24-25

 

[justbyfaith]

and if Jesus possessed an indestructible life, then He was not made in all things like unto His brethren

In Hebrews 7:16, He came after the power of an endless life. I believe that some other translations (other than the kjv) translate that as "indestructible".

You can reject such translations. But then, you would have to be willing to concede that modern translations are watered down and inaccurate.

If you are not willing to concede that, then "indestructible" is a valid translation of what is written in the verse.

 

[BarneyFife]

The fact that He was resurrected does not change the fact that He died.

 

[charity]

Paradox:- a situation or statement that seems impossible, or is difficult to understand, because it contains two opposite facts or characteristics.

Hello @BarnyFife,

Thank you for causing me to consider the paradoxes found in Scripture, for I have not considered them before, and a reference to the work of another on the subject has enlightened me, and given me food for thought.

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time
James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
In Matthew 23:11 Jesus said, “Whoever wants to be greatest, should be everyone’s servant.”
In Mark 9:35 Jesus said, “Anyone who wants to be first, must be the very last.”
In Luke 17:33 Jesus said, “Whoever tries to keep their lives will lose it, and whoever loses their lives will keep it.”
In 2 Corinthians 12:10 and 13:9 Paul said, “When we are weak we are strong.”
James 1:2 says, “Count it all joy when you fall into various trials.'

* Simple examples for a beginner like myself.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[WaterSong]

That is what I am saying (John 5:18). Except that Jesus didn't sin when He violated the sabbath; because with a change in priesthood came a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12 and context). He came not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless (indestructible) life.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2: 27-28 If anyone had a right to "work" on Sabbath day it was he.
In doing this he demonstrated doing the work of God did not violate Sabbath.

 

[ChristisGod]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2: 27-28 If anyone had a right to "work" on Sabbath day it was he.
In doing this he demonstrated doing the work of God did not violate Sabbath.

Amen

John 5
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[WaterSong]

Amen

John 5
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

hope this helps !!!

I hope so too. Thank you for posting that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Paradox:- a situation or statement that seems impossible, or is difficult to understand, because it contains two opposite facts or characteristics.

Hello @BarnyFife,

Thank you for causing me to consider the paradoxes found in Scripture, for I have not considered them before, and a reference to the work of another on the subject has enlightened me, and given me food for thought.

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time
James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
In Matthew 23:11 Jesus said, “Whoever wants to be greatest, should be everyone’s servant.”
In Mark 9:35 Jesus said, “Anyone who wants to be first, must be the very last.”
In Luke 17:33 Jesus said, “Whoever tries to keep their lives will lose it, and whoever loses their lives will keep it.”
In 2 Corinthians 12:10 and 13:9 Paul said, “When we are weak we are strong.”
James 1:2 says, “Count it all joy when you fall into various trials.'

* Simple examples for a beginner like myself.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Excellent. Thank you for contributing.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2: 27-28 If anyone had a right to "work" on Sabbath day it was he.
In doing this he demonstrated doing the work of God did not violate Sabbath.

That's right, He did not violate the spirit of the sabbath day laws; although He did violate the letter.

That is plain for all to see.

Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Jhn 5:16, And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

I consider that verse 18 is the estimation of the apostle under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Again, Romans 7:6 is paramount to our understanding here.

As well as Hebrews 7:12 and context.

 

[ChristisGod]

jbf has no idea of what the sabbath day means nor what work means in the commandments. Here are my top 10 reasons why below:

1- you shall not do any work- as in the same work of the other 6 days of the week
2- the Priest's " worked " in the temple on the sabbath
3- that day was a break for man from his work to devote to God
4- doing Gods work on that day is not a violation of the sabbath
5- Jesus healing the man was doing Gods work hence no violation.
6- turn your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words (Isaiah 58:13)
7- honoring and worshipping God on the sabbath is not a violation but indeed is a command which Jesus was obeying.
8- Jesus healing on the sabbath was fulfilled the Sabbaths design not breaking its command
9- Jesus answers His self righteous critics- "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:23-24).
10- This is how one should look at Scripture with understanding and proper exegesis understanding its context.

BTW- Jesus did not violate the letter of the law- He fulfilled the law perfectly down to the very letter of the law. To say otherwise is to accuse Jesus of sin just like the Pharisees who were religious hypocrites did numerous time to the Son of God. He is Holy and Perfect just like the Father which is why He said My Father is working and so am I working and I only say and do what I hear and see My Father saying and doing.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Truther]

Learn a little history

Acts 2 is trustworthy history.

 

[Grailhunter]

Acts 2 is trustworthy history.

kool

 

[ChristisGod]

Jesus did not violate this law, He clarified for us what this law was intended to mean from the start. We were not made to keep God's law about the sabbath, but this law was made for us to understand what it means to enter God's rest.

Amen !

 

[Grailhunter]

I think you guys have accidentally stumbled on an interesting topic.

Can God break "the Law?"

If not, why is it that God cannot break the Law?

If God breaks the Law, what can we do about it? Is there a Supreme Supreme Court lol?

Did the Jews think that Christ broke the Law?

For Christ to say He was the Son of God...was that against the Law?

Did the Jews believe that Christ had the right or power to forgive sins? If He did, was that a violation of the Law?

Was Christ the first Jew to heal people? Where did the Jews think that Christ got that power?

 

[Enoch111]

That's right, He did not violate the spirit of the sabbath day laws; although He did violate the letter.

More baloney from JBF. Christ could neither break the letter nor the spirit of the Law. Who do you think gave the Law to Moses?

 

[MattMooradian]

For Christ to say He was the Son of God...was that against the Law?

No! Clearly, by Jesus' response, it is ordinary to claim to be a son of God. "Ye are all sons of God..."

 

[Grailhunter]

No! Clearly, by Jesus' response, it is ordinary to claim to be a son of God. "Ye are all sons of God..."

lol...Do you think the Jews took it that way?
Children of god? Jews the children of God? Christians the children of God....usually lower case ahhh!?

 

[justbyfaith]

jbf has no idea of what the sabbath day means nor what work means in the commandments. Here are my top 10 reasons why below:

1- you shall not do any work- as in the same work of the other 6 days of the week
2- the Priest's " worked " in the temple on the sabbath
3- that day was a break for man from his work to devote to God
4- doing Gods work on that day is not a violation of the sabbath
5- Jesus healing the man was doing Gods work hence no violation.
6- turn your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words (Isaiah 58:13)
7- honoring and worshipping God on the sabbath is not a violation but indeed is a command which Jesus was obeying.
8- Jesus healing on the sabbath was fulfilled the Sabbaths design not breaking its command
9- Jesus answers His self righteous critics- "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:23-24).
10- This is how one should look at Scripture with understanding and proper exegesis understanding its context.

BTW- Jesus did not violate the letter of the law- He fulfilled the law perfectly down to the very letter of the law. To say otherwise is to accuse Jesus of sin just like the Pharisees who were religious hypocrites did numerous time to the Son of God. He is Holy and Perfect just like the Father which is why He said My Father is working and so am I working and I only say and do what I hear and see My Father saying and doing.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus did not violate this law, He clarified for us what this law was intended to mean from the start. We were not made to keep God's law about the sabbath, but this law was made for us to understand what it means to enter God's rest.

More baloney from JBF. Christ could neither break the letter nor the spirit of the Law. Who do you think gave the Law to Moses?

God said, "thou shalt not do any work on the sabbath day" (Exodus 20:10)

Yet Jesus claimed to be working on the sabbath day. (John 5:16-18).

Now, either Jesus was lying, or else He was working on the sabbath day.

In denying this, you are removing one of the major scriptures by which we can prove the Deity of Christ.

Because if Jesus did not break the sabbath, as John 5:18 so clearly determines, then He also did not say that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Therefore the JW's, Christadelphians, and others who deny Christ's Deity will love your post, @Christophany...

Now, I am certainly not saying that Jesus did not have the right to violate the letter of the sabbath day laws because He was God.

Jesus is indeed the Lord of the sabbath...He redefined the sabbath so that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days...and He also redefined it so that the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

However, in the original estimation of the sabbath day law, it should be clear that it says that you shll not do any work on it...

Jesus said, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work; and that day was the sabbath.

There is no getting around the fact that Jesus worked on the sabbath day...and that this was a violation of the letter of the sabbath day laws (Exodus 20:10).

Paramount to our understanding, therefore, is Romans 7:6 and Hebrews 7:12 and context.

The Lord most definitely re-defined the sabbath day laws; and He had every right to do so because He is the Lord of the sabbath day.

Therefore He did not sin; even though He violated what was previously on the books as being the letter of the sabbath day laws.

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course, God can break the law. We should not think that God has less freedom of will than we do. However, God would never break His own laws.

Essentially what is a sin?

Not at first, but after hearing Jesus' response, they were convicted and walked away.

Convicted of what? You do know they had Him crucified. lol Shortly after the high priest tore his robes.