Convergence of Signs tells us the Return of Jesus is very Near and the Rapture is Imminent!!

[Naomi25]

We need in any case to keep 'looking unto Jesus (Hebrews 12.2), not for signs and wonders...

I think signs and wonders can help us 'keep looking up', as we're surrounded daily by tragedy. But by themselves they shouldn't be the only reason why we're looking up. I think we should expect his return daily because the bible tells us too, it tells us to live that way, in expectation and in godliness. But yes, too right we need to be keeping our gaze upon him!

 

[CoreIssue]

Maybe Elijah did go to heaven, after all he and Moses appeared to Jesus and the disciples. Matthew 17:3

So Enoch, Moses and Elijah are in heaven. You must admit they were special people, taken to heaven for a special reason. I think that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses. [I would like to collect the postage stamp on the letter Elijah sent!]

It is your use of this to prove a general 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, that I object to.
That fanciful idea is the one that seriously contradicts scripture.

Moses was already dead, so yes, his spirit was already in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were taken to heaven per the Bible.

Moses cannot be one of the two witnesses because that means he would die twice.

Neither has anything to do with the rapture.

 

[Naomi25]

Nothing happened to those living in a bubble Naomi. ISIS appeared out of nowhere, ISIS be-headings, international economies are collapsing, riots are increasing, churches are closing, earthquakes are increasing, disease and pestilence are increasing especially in foods, volcano in Hawaii, volcano's are erupting more, the list goes on......

We are the generation in Matt 24, we are in that time frame, 1948 + 70 = 2018, Psa 90:10, be in 80 years, 2021-2028. Jesus is at the door.

Well...these things didn't happen on the dates of "sky events" either...they've just happened over the course of the past few years. So...which is it...either these signs in the sky herald particular events...which should be obvious and corresponding...or they do not, in which case they are just events in the sky to mark the passage of times and seasons, as they always have been.

My point: Corresponding events and reactions must link. If you are saying that these signs in the heavens matched up with events on earth, then they must be obvious. Saying "that blood moon corresponded with ISIS coming to power"....only, ISIS had been growing in power in the vacuum created by Al Qaeda and you can't actually pinpoint when they came to power, because power where? In Iraq? Syria? Specific towns? Suddenly your blood moon is not so corresponding and precise. And the same goes for the rest. The solar eclipse showed what? A 0.1% increase in volcanic activity because of the Hawaii erruption? Volcanoes are errupting more? But how much more? It would have to be fairly obvious to be able to link it to a sign in the sky. Especially if men are supposed to "quake with fear" at such signs and the corresponding actions here on earth.

You see...there are just too many things that don't add up. You want these things to be true, so you see statistics when there just aren't any.

 

[Naomi25]

Although we agree with much of what you have stated in regards to many of these “signs” having been with us all throughout the age, we must disagree with your statement viz.

“Christ and Paul do not give us a great deal of information about the time of our Lord’s return”

Actually the scriptures are full of this information; one need only have their eyes open to see it. The Apostle Peter gives us the clue as to where we are to be looking, not to the sky, but to the more sure word of prophecy (2 Pet 2:19), which you would do well to take heed as a light shining in a dark place (this present world). Unfortunately most are either ignorant or simply not interested enough to make the effort to study prophecy, to their own loss.

2 Peter 2:19 is Peter talking about false teachers enticing others to become as they are: slaves to sin and deceit. I can't quite see how it has any bearing on how we should be looking to prophecy or the scriptures to determine the when of our Lords second coming.

Yes it’s true that they (our Lord and the Apostles) did not know of the time of the his return then, for it was not the “due time” for its disclosure, the book (the divine testimony concerning this as well as many other events recorded in prophecy) having been concealed, sealed up until the “time of the end” (Dan 12:9), and then only to be reveal to the wise, not the wise in worldly wisdom and understanding, in the teachings of men and the professed church, but the wise in spiritual understanding, in the truth of God’s word, those begotten of the Lord’s spirit who are awake and who are looking, looking to more sure word of prophecy that that day, the parousia (presence) of the Lord should not take them unawares, as a thief in the night.

And, I suppose those that aren't as "woke" as you, in the same agreement and interpretation, will not have the wisdom or understanding begotten of the Lord's spirit.

Look...I'm not saying that Christ, Peter and Paul (those being the major NT writers) didn't have plenty to say about these last days. I'm saying that over and over again we are told that we will not know the day. So claiming that there are signs that tell us these ARE the very last days, is somewhat contradictory to what Christ himself told us, don't you think? We may observe these signs and say we are most certainly getting closer. Ever closer. But when a fixed point in time is only known by God the Father, it is foolishness to try and put a label on it from this side of things. It's like trying to play pin the tail on the donkey when the donkey is the rest of time and the tail is Christ's return. Yes...it's going to be sometime between now and the end of time! Go!

Unfortunately even as the nominal fleshly house felled in the day of their visitation (Luke 19:44) so too the nominal spiritual house is felling in the day of their visitation, both stumble over the same thing a failure to rightly understand both the object (the purpose), and the manner of the Lord’s two advents.

Okay...enlighten us! If you're so down with the knowing and understanding, gives us bible and verse that shows when Christ will be knocking on the door. If you can't, you're just proving my point. The signs aren't for knowing times. Not at all. They're for knowing he is in control and moving history to it's final consumation. The birth is proceeding.

 

[CoreIssue]

Well...these things didn't happen on the dates of "sky events" either...they've just happened over the course of the past few years. So...which is it...either these signs in the sky herald particular events...which should be obvious and corresponding...or they do not, in which case they are just events in the sky to mark the passage of times and seasons, as they always have been.

My point: Corresponding events and reactions must link. If you are saying that these signs in the heavens matched up with events on earth, then they must be obvious. Saying "that blood moon corresponded with ISIS coming to power"....only, ISIS had been growing in power in the vacuum created by Al Qaeda and you can't actually pinpoint when they came to power, because power where? In Iraq? Syria? Specific towns? Suddenly your blood moon is not so corresponding and precise. And the same goes for the rest. The solar eclipse showed what? A 0.1% increase in volcanic activity because of the Hawaii erruption? Volcanoes are errupting more? But how much more? It would have to be fairly obvious to be able to link it to a sign in the sky. Especially if men are supposed to "quake with fear" at such signs and the corresponding actions here on earth.

You see...there are just too many things that don't add up. You want these things to be true, so you see statistics when there just aren't any.

In general, the Bible says naturally occurring events in the sky will increase, which is true . The events themselves are not supernatural and most assuredly not tied to the law of Moses.

A lot of the list is dramatically increasing issues around us.

The unique ones are the restoration of Israel, homosexuality being increasingly accepted and legalized. Increasing laws against Christianity and some others. The Roman Empire being restored is in work. Since 1948 Israel and Jerusalem have been world wide issues.

The generation that sees the restoration of Israel will see the second coming. The second coming is exactly 7 Hebrew years after the rapture and revealing of the AC.

So when you put it up altogether the warning is there.

 

[Naomi25]

I already showed you that's not true.

From 70 A.D. to 1948 Israel did not exist.

The Nation of Israel did not exist. The people of Israel did, and they have been hated and killed just fine without a piece of land.

In vast increases in knowledge began in the 20th century.

You say that like before that people where stupid and living in caves. What about the tower of babel, where God was so alarmed at the progress of people that he decided to confuse their languages just to 'set 'em back a bit'?
What about the contruction of some of the ancient wonders of the world? Hand made? That takes some incredible engineering feats.
Maybe not all people were learned, but some most certainly where. Plato, Aristotle? Some of the greatest minds where those we recognize as "ancient" minds. What of those even who are biblical characters? Paul himself had a towering intellect. The Pharisees and those who learned the OT memorized the whole thing.
What the 20th Century has is technology. But "increases in knowledge" has been happening forever. It's lead to the point where we were able to start developing the technology we have now, but it was built on the backs of giants.

The gospel was not preached throughout the world until the 1900s.

Except that bit in the bible where Paul said it was. So, you know, your understanding of "throughout the world" and his were perhaps different. I'm thinking I might side with the biblical interpretation, sorry.

Homosexuality being accepted nationally and legalized is even more recent.

Again, that depends on perspective. From the perspective of our Grandparents time...sure. They would have a fit.
But from Ancient Rome's time? Pffst! We've barely scratched the surface of perversion compared to them. Did you know that Emperor Nero, after killing his pregnant wife, had a guy castrated and then dressed him as a woman and then married him?

 

[CoreIssue]

The Nation of Israel did not exist. The people of Israel did, and they have been hated and killed just fine without a piece of land.


You say that like before that people where stupid and living in caves. What about the tower of babel, where God was so alarmed at the progress of people that he decided to confuse their languages just to 'set 'em back a bit'?
What about the contruction of some of the ancient wonders of the world? Hand made? That takes some incredible engineering feats.
Maybe not all people were learned, but some most certainly where. Plato, Aristotle? Some of the greatest minds where those we recognize as "ancient" minds. What of those even who are biblical characters? Paul himself had a towering intellect. The Pharisees and those who learned the OT memorized the whole thing.
What the 20th Century has is technology. But "increases in knowledge" has been happening forever. It's lead to the point where we were able to start developing the technology we have now, but it was built on the backs of giants.


Except that bit in the bible where Paul said it was. So, you know, your understanding of "throughout the world" and his were perhaps different. I'm thinking I might side with the biblical interpretation, sorry.



Again, that depends on perspective. From the perspective of our Grandparents time...sure. They would have a fit.
But from Ancient Rome's time? Pffst! We've barely scratched the surface of perversion compared to them. Did you know that Emperor Nero, after killing his pregnant wife, had a guy castrated and then dressed him as a woman and then married him?

But Israel as covenant is talking about the country/nations. As individuals they are called Jews or Israeli.

The prophecy is about the nation/country of Israel.

History is history. So many people are obsessed with rewriting to fit their desires.

Your perspective on history does not change the history itself.

An old tee times the world meant the known world, such as the Empire of Babylon, Medo Persia and Rome. China, South America and Africa, in example, didn't exist in their thinking.

 

[Naomi25]

I can appreciate this. The general times and season. That's the overall general sense that I get.

I made a bit of a 'call' on the now defunct Rapture Ready forum a little over a year ago. I was working on a theory and the night of the Las Vegas shooting, I felt compelled to post it unfinished. Going with the often quoted "birth pang" thing every time almost any thing of any significance happened, I extrapolated that out a little bit.

Being a man and not even a father, I do not swear by this, but are not birth pangs a single significant event than then dissipate and then return in greater magnitude and then abate... lather, rinse, repeat. And do they not start to occur with less and less time in between?

Now on that website was a gentleman who lives in California and was threatened by those fires in early 2017. Record fires. Then came other records. A big quake in Mexico City. Then I was affected by hurricane Harvey, another record. I began to see this as a 'season of records' and possible the first actually discernable true birth pang? Then the record shooting occurred and I posted this developing theory later that evening. The Texas church shooting follow this declaration by about a month. 2017 was a record breaking year for the most $Billion dollar disasters.

But in that post I also suggested that if my theory was correct then what we would see would be an eventual settling down of these records at some future (at that time ) point. And that if that happened, then when would an experience a lull only to be greeted by yet a worse second distinguishable birth pang at some point later!

And that if birth pangs do come closer to one another then once the second one started and finished then we would know that a third one will be coming even sooner and will be even worse. This until Ezekiel 38/39, Isaiah 17, Proverbs 83, the Rapture, you name it.

So that period of records did quiet down. Sometime early in 2018.

Not that this year hasn't had it tragedies. But nothing like that period that lasted most of last year. So my question would be to mothers is if the period in between birth pangs goes back to normal or is it just better than being in a birth pang? You know what I mean? It is back to level ground or just a valley that is better than the previous or next birth pang?

I just read a news headline that said Trump said to Erdogan in a phone call that "You know what? Its yours!" in reference to Syria. This stock market is looking really bad right now. Could we be on the verge of another distinguishable birth pang? Again, mothers, birth pangs are distinguishable, right!?

If so, it could mean a period even worse that the fat part of 2017! Which was just downright awful. Another question for the mothers, do the subsequent birth pang also last longer or are they the same or are they perhaps shorter but more intense? I know that they are more intense.

I could be all wrong about this and hope that I am. But this random pattern of Old Lady McDonald's 'birth pang here and a birth pang there' doesn't seem to fit the pattern of actual birth pangs. So if this correct, we should fasten our seats. Do what we have to do and do it quickly. Gather in some supplies of whatever works for you.

Me... I am literally heading for the hills. But this was already a consideration for me personally and only one of the two forks that I might have taken. Was indecisive until this week. I am serious though about making amends with people or whatever sort of 'business' that anyone needs to do in the present life. That, though, is always a good idea.

This...this is good. As in...thought provoking. As a mother, I can tell you...you are spot on about the birth pangs. It does work exactly like that. The pain comes, then it leaves for a bit, but then it comes back, a little harder and a little longer. The "off" times get shorter and the "on" times get longer and stronger. Until it's time for the delivery; and while there's joy in that knowledge, that's also the scariest, most painful part. It doesn't usually last long and by golly, there's no stopping it.

I think when we come to scripture the question we need to pause and ask is this: when Jesus mentioned birth pangs, did he just mean that his coming is as inevitable as the coming of a child (once labor starts...heck, once your pregnant, you're not getting out of it!). Or did he mean that we are to see the end of the world as the same as labor...the convulsions leading to new life?

I think we must see it as both, in the context of how Christ used it. "All these things (calamaties) are but the beginning of birth pains".
He isn't, here, speaking of his imminent return, but of the woes of this life, wars, famines, false Christ's, earthquakes and the like. These are the beginning of the contractions.

And then Paul, in Romans 8:22 tells us that the whole of creation has beein groaning in childbirth. Again, this implies the labor, not just the inevibility of the birth itself.

So, what can we take away from it? I think you may be right. These contractions will become more and more obvious. I think last year, people would have been blind not to stop and see how fast and thick it was coming for a time. I know many Amillennialist who even commented on it. As to how soon another contraction will come, and then another after that to begin to perhaps give us a little idea of 'how far apart' they are...well, we'll just have to wait and see. But I do think that these 'pangs'...the intensity and frequency of these things, will perhaps be the most faithful gauge, for want of a better word...to tell us the lateness of the hour. If that makes sense.

Yeah. But it gets even worse! I just read some headline blurb today that the most popular 2019 calendar in Japan is one with a bunch of pictures of a shirtless Putin. More popular than their own celeb's calendars.

Why don't they just roll over and let him rub their bellies while their at it? Please. The guy postures like a megalomaniac. Why would anyone want to toss gasoline on that flame?

Not sure? I always heard it was for the Catholic meatless Fridays, but that was about temporarily abstaining from meats. Not actual vegetarianism. Personally I ceased my 4 months or so of veganism less than 24 hours before this thread started. Did so for health reasons just like I started it for health reasons. But it sure has become a pseudo-religion hasn't it!?

I never sweated it as Daniel and company show that abstaining for a time is not all bad.

I think it's "big" now because people are all "save the animals". People at the moment are all about having a cause to scream about.
Personally, I don't care if someone wants to avoid meat because they just want to. Sometimes I just can't eat it...my stomach is like: "nope! Not today!" But then, other days it's like: "Bacon! God is awesome!"

They certainly could.


That's just it. Only recently did we have a period where the contractions are becoming distinct and not just scattered and random. I think up until now (well, last year) that they have only been little kicks. So contractions do mean the baby is due soon? On what time scale is certainly debatable. But if we are entering into the next significant, distinguishable contraction, then we can start to get an idea of the time scale. And have some idea of what may just be around the corner for us!

Blessings.

Yeah, true. It can, when going into labor, take a bit to figure out if you are, actually, having birth pains. This is usally because by the time you're "ready to go" your so uncomfortable all the time, it can be difficult to tell! And I suppose that can fit just as well into this scenario. The world has been in trouble for a long while, experiencing all these 'aches and pains'. Christ said we would have these things. But by golly, when the labor kicks in for real, there is no way to mistake it...unless you're one of those freakish women...but let's ingore them for the sake of the conversation!! It will be very interesting to see if another, very obvious "pang" comes along soon. I mean...considering how long it took to work its way up to last years, it may not be for some time, really. But, as I'm keen for this "baby", I can hope we'll see another one soonish. Still...we won't truly be able to know how long this 'labor' will last. I suppose til the contractions run together and the chaos is almost unstoppable. Can you imagine it? No wonder the bible says men will quake and faint from fear.

 

[Naomi25]

In general, the Bible says naturally occurring events in the sky will increase, which is true . The events themselves are not supernatural and most assuredly not tied to the law of Moses.

A lot of the list is dramatically increasing issues around us.

I can agree that these things are increasing in occurance. And I think that, yes, that does hold meaning for us, and we should be watching. I just think we cannot...should not lay a claim to the moment being upon us because of these things. It's beyond us to know that.

The unique ones are the restoration of Israel, homosexuality being increasingly accepted and legalized. Increasing laws against Christianity and some others. The Roman Empire being restored is in work. Since 1948 Israel and Jerusalem have been world wide issues.

The generation that sees the restoration of Israel will see the second coming. The second coming is exactly 7 Hebrew years after the rapture and revealing of the AC.

So when you put it up altogether the warning is there.

Yeah...see, this is where we part company. While I do agree that Israel being restored to her land is remarkable and it signifies God is working a plan for her, I do not see in scripture any such thing saying Christ's return must be within the generation of that event happening.
Also, Christianity has always been hated and persecuted. We are seeing it more here in the West, but for most of the world, it's business as usual. I don't think we are taking that into account when we try and pin dates and prophecy onto our exact experiences. Christ does not time his return to coencide with the suffering of the Evangelical Western Church after ignoring decades of his people dying as matyrs across the globe.
The EU has been around for ages...could it be the Roman Empire reborn? Maybe. But it's getting rather stale for something reborn. It's members are abandoning it like rats from a sinking ship and if they don't halt their immigration policies, they are going to become Islamic states rather than Roman...especially with the immigration pact they just signed.
And, well...7 years. Man...I could go into that. I'll just say that I don't read that anywhere either. I see the bible talking about time periods; perfect time periods to fulfill God plans, and cut off periods...cut off because those on this 'chess board' must play with God's rules. They have certain time frames they must fit into.

 

[Naomi25]

But Israel as covenant is talking about the country/nations. As individuals they are called Jews or Israeli.

The prophecy is about the nation/country of Israel.

History is history. So many people are obsessed with rewriting to fit their desires.

Your perspective on history does not change the history itself.

An old tee times the world meant the known world, such as the Empire of Babylon, Medo Persia and Rome. China, South America and Africa, in example, didn't exist in their thinking.

Ok. Israel. There's a few things I'd say about Israel.
First: regardless of them being back in the land, their cohesion as a national people was still essential. They wouldn't have been able to come back to their land as a people if they'd been assimilated into the lands they'd been driven out to 2000 years ago. As terrible as their persecution has been, it has also shown us something: God must still have a plan and a love for them...Satan would surely not have focused so much hate towards them otherwise, don't you think?

Secondly: I actually do believe that Israel being back in her land is significant, I just don't think you can show, biblically, that that significance rests on a division between Church and Israel. Biblically, Paul tells us we are one in Christ; and that is the only way to the Father. I think Romans teaches that this plan God has for the Jews, is to graft them back into the vine: Christ. That makes us all one. That is the opposite of this notion of a separate plan for Church and Israel.

And Thirdly: I have to ask you...if you guys put so much weight on this notion of "imminency", then why couldn't have Christ come back until Israel was in it's land again? Doesn't that make a lot of ...not-sense, to you? Or, are you saying that all this teaching you get from the bible that teaches imminency only "comes into effect" once Israel is back in her land? And that, everyone reading the bible before that happened was supposed to understand that intuitively and correspondingly juggle their theology?

 

[CoreIssue]

Ok. Israel. There's a few things I'd say about Israel.
First: regardless of them being back in the land, their cohesion as a national people was still essential. They wouldn't have been able to come back to their land as a people if they'd been assimilated into the lands they'd been driven out to 2000 years ago. As terrible as their persecution has been, it has also shown us something: God must still have a plan and a love for them...Satan would surely not have focused so much hate towards them otherwise, don't you think?

Secondly: I actually do believe that Israel being back in her land is significant, I just don't think you can show, biblically, that that significance rests on a division between Church and Israel. Biblically, Paul tells us we are one in Christ; and that is the only way to the Father. I think Romans teaches that this plan God has for the Jews, is to graft them back into the vine: Christ. That makes us all one. That is the opposite of this notion of a separate plan for Church and Israel.

And Thirdly: I have to ask you...if you guys put so much weight on this notion of "imminency", then why couldn't have Christ come back until Israel was in it's land again? Doesn't that make a lot of ...not-sense, to you? Or, are you saying that all this teaching you get from the bible that teaches imminency only "comes into effect" once Israel is back in her land? And that, everyone reading the bible before that happened was supposed to understand that intuitively and correspondingly juggle their theology?

The Bible is crystal clear God is not finished with Israel by a long shot.

Nor is Satan finished with trying to wipe them off the face of the earth.

In the church age believing Jews and Gentiles are church.

As far as grafting goes it is an olive tree, not a vine. The olive tree is symbolic of Israel.

Romans 11:16-24 New International Version (NIV)
16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The olive tree has always been. When the church is rapture Israel will return under the new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel.

We are currently under the covenant given by Jesus at the Last Supper.

The olive tree has never ceased to be Israel. The new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel will commence when the church is raptured.

Immeninency has been a reality since Jesus ascended. But conditions were given for what had to happen before it would occur.

So while the apostles didn't know when it would happen, they knew it was subject to what Christ said had to occur first. A reality I think Paul may pretty clear to the Thessalonians.

But of course the view of that fulfillment has changed over the centuries. And many times people tried to set dates when what had to occur had not and could not the time.

Unless you can point something out that was required that cannot occur yet, then it is up to the father as to when to tell the son to go get his bride.

So unless I missed something I am ready to go and I don't give up more than 15 years max before were gone. But I'm not going to be sitting on a hilltop waiting, I will keep working and trying to serve God until then.

 

[Naomi25]

The Bible is crystal clear God is not finished with Israel by a long shot.

Nor is Satan finished with trying to wipe them off the face of the earth.

In the church age believing Jews and Gentiles are church.

As far as grafting goes it is an olive tree, not a vine. The olive tree is symbolic of Israel.

Eh, sure. Vine, tree. Christ uses both to describe himself. I'm having a bad morning and mixed them up, but it doesn't really change the point about my illustration or the text I referred to, I think.

Romans 11:16-24 New International Version (NIV)
16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The olive tree has always been. When the church is rapture Israel will return under the new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel.

Okay, sure...the olive tree has always been. But...where is the verse that says that there will be a rapture and THEN Israel will be under the new covenant?

We are currently under the covenant given by Jesus at the Last Supper.

The olive tree has never ceased to be Israel. The new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel will commence when the church is raptured.

The Olive Tree is Christ, not Israel. That is what the Romans passage stresses. Those not faithful to the tree, to Christ, have been removed...unbelieving Israel. Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted onto the tree.

If the tree is Christ, why would a Rapture need to take the Church (including believing Jews now) out of the way before other Jews can come to him? And again, where are the verses backing this up, explaining this?

Immeninency has been a reality since Jesus ascended. But conditions were given for what had to happen before it would occur.

Wait...how does that even make sense?? "Christ could return at any second...but not until Israel is back in the land. Sure...that could take up to 2000 years to happen...but he could arrive any second!"

So while the apostles didn't know when it would happen, they knew it was subject to what Christ said had to occur first. A reality I think Paul may pretty clear to the Thessalonians.

But this would mean that the doctrine of Imminency couldn't be. If Christ's return was "subject to other things happening first", that would mean it cannot be Imminent, by definition, until all those conditions have been met.

But of course the view of that fulfillment has changed over the centuries. And many times people tried to set dates when what had to occur had not and could not the time.

Unless you can point something out that was required that cannot occur yet, then it is up to the father as to when to tell the son to go get his bride.

So unless I missed something I am ready to go and I don't give up more than 15 years max before were gone. But I'm not going to be sitting on a hilltop waiting, I will keep working and trying to serve God until then.

Well...good way to be! Ready whenever, but working in the meantime. I think that's all any of us can do, despite all our differences on this subject, yeah? I mean, when it all boils down to it, we all just want the same thing: Christ to return. We love his presence in our lives now, we love the work of the Spirit now, but we know he's promised something more, and we long for that!

 

[n2thelight]

The Convergence of Signs tells us the Return of Jesus is very Near and the Rapture is Imminent!! What kind of life would you live if you really believed the rapture is imminent and that Jesus may return today?

Imminent and signs don't go together.

 

[CoreIssue]

="Naomi25, post: 484780, member: 7237"]Eh, sure. Vine, tree. Christ uses both to describe himself. I'm having a bad morning and mixed them up, but it doesn't really change the point about my illustration or the text I referred to, I think.

Okay, sure...the olive tree has always been. But...where is the verse that says that there will be a rapture and THEN Israel will be under the new covenant?

Try the book of revelations.

And the book of Jeremiah and Hebrews for the new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel.

The Olive Tree is Christ, not Israel. That is what the Romans passage stresses. Those not faithful to the tree, to Christ, have been removed...unbelieving Israel. Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted onto the tree.

The olive tree is never called Christ. Always Israel.

If the tree is Christ, why would a Rapture need to take the Church (including believing Jews now) out of the way before other Jews can come to him? And again, where are the verses backing this up, explaining this?

Revelations 3:10 and the whole book of revelations.

Wait...how does that even make sense?? "Christ could return at any second...but not until Israel is back in the land. Sure...that could take up to 2000 years to happen...but he could arrive any second!"

But this would mean that the doctrine of Imminency couldn't be. If Christ's return was "subject to other things happening first", that would mean it cannot be Imminent, by definition, until all those conditions have been met.

I don't support the traditional doctrine of imminancy. We don't know when Christ will return but we do know some things have to occur before he does. How fast those things happen to the end has always been the question we cannot answer.

Well...good way to be! Ready whenever, but working in the meantime. I think that's all any of us can do, despite all our differences on this subject, yeah? I mean, when it all boils down to it, we all just want the same thing: Christ to return. We love his presence in our lives now, we love the work of the Spirit now, but we know he's promised something more, and we long for that!

[/QUOTE]

 

[Naomi25]

Try the book of revelations.

And the book of Jeremiah and Hebrews for the new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel.

I'm sorry, but this does not "cut it". You are saying that the bible specifically lays out that there is a distinction between the Church and Israel, covenantal wise for their redemption, and that for their covenant to "kick in" the Church has to be removed first. If you want this interpretation to stand, you need to provide precise verses, not just suggest books of the bible that you think might back you up. Chapter and verse, please.

I can show you Chapter and verse how I arrive at the conclusion that for redemption, regardless of nationality (Jew or Greek) people must come to Christ; in which they become one body of believers. If you think that there is more beyond that, you must show it.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” -Romans 10:12–13

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. -Ephesians 2:11–16

The olive tree is never called Christ. Always Israel.

You run into two problems here. First, the bible tells us that Christ IS the true Israel...Israel as she was truly meant to be.

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” -Matthew 2:13–15


When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. -Hosea 11:1


And secondly, when reading Rom 11, it doesn't make much sense to say that Israel was pruned off herself. The tree was cut off the tree?
No, Christ, the true Israel, the root stock, the trunk of the tree, is what holds life steady. Israel...national Israel, if they were unfaithful, as the branches were cut off Christ, and believing Gentiles were grafted in. Made one with Christ, one body, and as it says in Rom 9:6-8, we become "offspring of the promise".

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, -Romans 11:17

Clearly, here, Christ is being referred to as the olive tree.

Revelations 3:10 and the whole book of revelations.

"I will keep you from the hour of trial" is, undoubtably, an interesting verse, with lots of possible interpretations. But there is simply no way you can build a doctrine of separate timetables for separate peoples...even though they must be saved by the same thing...out if it.
Likewise with the book of Revelations...many different interpretations abound about it, but it's not what I would call probably the best bet for trying to build the basis for something like this. I mean...you could try...again...with chapter and verse please. If you think Revelation is a literal and chronological march through of events, it shouldn't be that hard, right?
But...I don't think you can do it, because I don't think there is anywhere in scripture that lays out for us this separation of both peoples, covenants in different time frames etc, that you are pushing for.

I don't support the traditional doctrine of imminancy. We don't know when Christ will return but we do know some things have to occur before he does. How fast those things happen to the end has always been the question we cannot answer.

I think it's a strange juxtaposition, really. Many of the 'signs' the bible talks about are those we've always seen...but they will become more intense. Some of the 'signs'...as you say...could happen within moments of his arrival (the sky darkening, stars falling etc). We have all the verses telling us we cannot know the day or hour, and yet we're also told that as we see the day approaching we are to lift up our heads!
Sometimes I wonder if it's a bit like...when...you are expecting guests to arrive. You know that they are coming that day, but for reasons, you're not sure when...just 'that day'. And so the whole day is filled with an excited expectation...you're not sure when they'll pull up, but by golly, it's gonna be that day!
Well, with Christ, the time frame is a little different, but as Christians we can have the same assurance and expectation. And every time we see a sign...an increase of them or some such, it's like we've just heard a car drive by and our excitment level jumps a little, reminding us what we're waiting for. Sometimes its accompanied by an aching heart...when will all the hurt and suffering be over? But God has it all in his hands, regardless of all our speculations and 'to and fro-ings'. That's comforting to me.

 

[Enoch111]

First, the bible tells us that Christ IS the true Israel...Israel as she was truly meant to be

The Bible tells us no such thing, and that is simply a misinterpretation. That is as ABSURD as saying that Queen Elizabeth = England.

How can Christ -- the King and Redeemer/Savior/Deliverer of Israel -- be *Israel* (the true redeemed and restored kingdom under Christ)?

ROMANS 11
26 And so all Israel [REDEEMED ISRAEL, THE NATION] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [CHRIST THE REDEEMER], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[REDEEMED ISRAEL, THE NATION]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Verse 26 is from Isaiah 59:20: And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

So, how can the Redeemer be the redeemed? And why do Christians present absurdities when Scripture is plain?

 

[CoreIssue]

I'm sorry, but this does not "cut it". You are saying that the bible specifically lays out that there is a distinction between the Church and Israel, covenantal wise for their redemption, and that for their covenant to "kick in" the Church has to be removed first. If you want this interpretation to stand, you need to provide precise verses, not just suggest books of the bible that you think might back you up. Chapter and verse, please.

I can show you Chapter and verse how I arrive at the conclusion that for redemption, regardless of nationality (Jew or Greek) people must come to Christ; in which they become one body of believers. If you think that there is more beyond that, you must show it.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” -Romans 10:12–13

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. -Ephesians 2:11–16




You run into two problems here. First, the bible tells us that Christ IS the true Israel...Israel as she was truly meant to be.

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” -Matthew 2:13–15


When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. -Hosea 11:1


And secondly, when reading Rom 11, it doesn't make much sense to say that Israel was pruned off herself. The tree was cut off the tree?
No, Christ, the true Israel, the root stock, the trunk of the tree, is what holds life steady. Israel...national Israel, if they were unfaithful, as the branches were cut off Christ, and believing Gentiles were grafted in. Made one with Christ, one body, and as it says in Rom 9:6-8, we become "offspring of the promise".

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, -Romans 11:17

Clearly, here, Christ is being referred to as the olive tree.

"I will keep you from the hour of trial" is, undoubtably, an interesting verse, with lots of possible interpretations. But there is simply no way you can build a doctrine of separate timetables for separate peoples...even though they must be saved by the same thing...out if it.
Likewise with the book of Revelations...many different interpretations abound about it, but it's not what I would call probably the best bet for trying to build the basis for something like this. I mean...you could try...again...with chapter and verse please. If you think Revelation is a literal and chronological march through of events, it shouldn't be that hard, right?
But...I don't think you can do it, because I don't think there is anywhere in scripture that lays out for us this separation of both peoples, covenants in different time frames etc, that you are pushing for.

I think it's a strange juxtaposition, really. Many of the 'signs' the bible talks about are those we've always seen...but they will become more intense. Some of the 'signs'...as you say...could happen within moments of his arrival (the sky darkening, stars falling etc). We have all the verses telling us we cannot know the day or hour, and yet we're also told that as we see the day approaching we are to lift up our heads!
Sometimes I wonder if it's a bit like...when...you are expecting guests to arrive. You know that they are coming that day, but for reasons, you're not sure when...just 'that day'. And so the whole day is filled with an excited expectation...you're not sure when they'll pull up, but by golly, it's gonna be that day!
Well, with Christ, the time frame is a little different, but as Christians we can have the same assurance and expectation. And every time we see a sign...an increase of them or some such, it's like we've just heard a car drive by and our excitment level jumps a little, reminding us what we're waiting for. Sometimes its accompanied by an aching heart...when will all the hurt and suffering be over? But God has it all in his hands, regardless of all our speculations and 'to and fro-ings'. That's comforting to me.

New covenant is to the houses of Judah and Israel. So, unless you're into replacement theology there is your distinction.

Revelation 3:10 says the church will be removed from the earth.

After the church verses there is zero mention of Church or Christians on the earth. But there's plenty mention of Israel, Jerusalem, 12 tribes of Israel, and the temple.

As far as redemption, after the rapture, law returns bringing with it animal sacrifices.

It will be like in the Old Testament for salvation. No born again until you die.

Christ will be there, as King and high priest of the temple.

Temple went from stone to Christians and will return to stone.

You quoting church verses does not apply to law and Israel.

Jesus is never called Israel. He is the offspring of Abraham through Israel. But that does not make himIsrael.

Christ is never called the olive tree.

As far as your verse on Israel, the nation of Israel was called out of Egypt. And calling his son out of Egypt is prophecy, but it does not say his son is Israel.

As for "I will keep you from the hour of trial" You obviously have not studied the linguistics. Keep from is tereo ek,
Which means protection by removal. The hour of trial is the tribulation. And the place of tribulation is everybody that lives on the earth.

God does not try or test his people. But it says everybody on the earth will be. So how do you protect by removal when it is the whole earth and everybody on it.

Matthew and such make it clear, his church is snatched away to join him in the clouds in heaven, meaning raptured.

The rapture is like a thief in the night. The second coming every eye will see. The two events are seven Hebrew years apart.

There were just humans on the earth. Then God separated them into Jews and Gentiles. He gave the Jews a covenant which did not include Gentiles.

Israel failed, divorced, God gave a covenant Gentiles at the Last Supper Christ declared his blood covenant, which is not new covenant Judah and Israel.

When the time of the Gentiles, the church age, ends, the church will be rapture and Israel return. And they will have a new covenant with the houses of Judah and Israel.

If you can't see separation I don't know what to tell you. You are reading things by what you want to see, not what is said.

1 Corinthians 1:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

To me both are valuable.

As well in the apostasy Bible is quite clear many calling themselves Christian will walk away from what the Bible teaches. Some to a state of being weak Christians and some to a state of being pretenders.

The Bible says in the last days true believers will cry out for the Lord to come. We are at that time.

 

[Naomi25]

The Bible tells us no such thing, and that is simply a misinterpretation. That is as ABSURD as saying that Queen Elizabeth = England.

How can Christ -- the King and Redeemer/Savior/Deliverer of Israel -- be *Israel* (the true redeemed and restored kingdom under Christ)?

ROMANS 11
26 And so all Israel [REDEEMED ISRAEL, THE NATION] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [CHRIST THE REDEEMER], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[REDEEMED ISRAEL, THE NATION]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Verse 26 is from Isaiah 59:20: And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

So, how can the Redeemer be the redeemed? And why do Christians present absurdities when Scripture is plain?

This is not an unbiblical or an absurb notion. We know the promise God made to Adam and Eve to save mankind was from an "offspring". We know that God promised Abraham that his "offspring" would bless the world and receive the covenant promises made to him. We know that God changed Jacob's name to Israel and that this was to carry out his plan for a people to be his own, a people to bring about this "offspring" that would both bless the nations and crush the head of the serpant. And we are told in Galatians by Paul that when God made this promise to Abraham, that he was talking about Christ..."offspring" being singular. Paul confirms that everyone IN Christ may share in the covenant blessings, but the promises, the prophecies, where about Christ.

This is traceable, biblical fact.

The reason you are having a problem with this is that you are not understanding who Israel was. They were not just a national peoples. If you recall, "Israel" came to be when Jacob had his name changed, so in point of fact, Israel was a person first, then a nation, so I can't see how it's a problem if it's again represented in a person.
But that aside, Israel is, or should have been, more than just a national group. It was also supposed to be a royal priesthood to light the way for all nations (Ex. 19:5–6; Isa. 42:6)...something they failed to do, which Christ suceeded in. In Hosea 11:1 we see how God "replays" the failures of Israel in Christ. He calls Jesus out of Egypt. Jesus passes through the water (baptism) and the wilderness and does not put his God to shame. He stands as the true light of the world, as the Son of God who does not turn from God in faithlessness. This is why he is the true Israel. Israel is a spiritual designation, something we see in Romans 9-11, something that Jesus Christ is absolutely...perfectly. We become Israel by becoming united with him...being grafted into him. That is the only way people become true offspring of Abraham.
The meaning of Romans 9-11 here is quite clear. And again, this is all traceble, biblical, fact. Not made up, not absurd. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is not an unbiblical or an absurb notion. We know the promise God made to Adam and Eve to save mankind was from an "offspring". We know that God promised Abraham that his "offspring" would bless the world and receive the covenant promises made to him. We know that God changed Jacob's name to Israel and that this was to carry out his plan for a people to be his own, a people to bring about this "offspring" that would both bless the nations and crush the head of the serpant. And we are told in Galatians by Paul that when God made this promise to Abraham, that he was talking about Christ..."offspring" being singular. Paul confirms that everyone IN Christ may share in the covenant blessings, but the promises, the prophecies, where about Christ.

This is traceable, biblical fact.

The reason you are having a problem with this is that you are not understanding who Israel was. They were not just a national peoples. If you recall, "Israel" came to be when Jacob had his name changed, so in point of fact, Israel was a person first, then a nation, so I can't see how it's a problem if it's again represented in a person.
But that aside, Israel is, or should have been, more than just a national group. It was also supposed to be a royal priesthood to light the way for all nations (Ex. 19:5–6; Isa. 42:6)...something they failed to do, which Christ suceeded in. In Hosea 11:1 we see how God "replays" the failures of Israel in Christ. He calls Jesus out of Egypt. Jesus passes through the water (baptism) and the wilderness and does not put his God to shame. He stands as the true light of the world, as the Son of God who does not turn from God in faithlessness. This is why he is the true Israel. Israel is a spiritual designation, something we see in Romans 9-11, something that Jesus Christ is absolutely...perfectly. We become Israel by becoming united with him...being grafted into him. That is the only way people become true offspring of Abraham.
The meaning of Romans 9-11 here is quite clear. And again, this is all traceble, biblical, fact. Not made up, not absurd. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

Replacement theology.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm sorry if you don't like it.

And I'm sorry you cannot recognize Bible truth when you see it. Your entire post is untenable, but there would be no point in listing each error one by one.

You do not even know that the *seed* of Abraham has three applications in the Abrahamic Covenant, depending on the context.