Coronavirus spreading

[ScottA]

Fake News.

Viruses kill every year. It's normal.

The "normal" death toll in just the USA is staggering: Burden of Influenza

Go about your business.

 

[Justadude]

Fake News.

What exactly is "fake"?

Viruses kill every year. It's normal.

The "normal" death toll in just the USA is staggering: Burden of Influenza

And the coronavirus is much, much more lethal.

Go about your business.

Just ignore it all?

 

[ScottA]

What exactly is "fake"?

And the coronavirus is much, much more lethal.

Just ignore it all?

The sky is not falling.
It's a virus.
It happens every year.
It's a different strain every year.
Some years are worse than others.
These annual epidemics are estimated to result in about 290 000 to 650 000 deaths every year.
You want to panic, then panic.

 

[Enoch111]

You want to panic, then panic.

Have you noticed how all the media are just chock full of reports about coronovirus (and the political virus called Bernie Sanders)? So now they have latched on to another panic-creating issue and they will beat it death. That is called fear-mongering.

"President Donald Trump on Sunday wrote that passengers traveling from certain high-risk countries will be screened before boarding as well as when they arrive in the United States.

The administration on Saturday expanded travel restrictions on Iran, where dozens of deaths have been reported in recent days, and raised an advisory that Americans should refrain from going to parts of Italy and South Korea, where the COVID-19 coronavirus has triggered quarantines..."

Trump: US Will Screen Travelers From High-Risk Countries Upon Arrival

On the other hand, feckless Justin Trudeau in Canada has decided to put all Canadians at risk by failing to do what is right and responsible.

 

[Yehren]

It may pose a bigger problem for the American economy than for American healthcare. If people panic, that will make things worse.

Right. The very worst thing to do right now, (and it's Trump's instinctive response to anything he doesn't understand) is to clamp down on information. Muzzling CDC and epidemiology people in the government means that we have the choice of believing Pence or various epidemiologists outside goverrnent, all of whom are more knowledgeable than Pence.

Not a good thing; it's ideal for rumors to get established.

That is exactly what Trump is doing.

The problem with Trump is that he lies so often and so blatantly that no one with any sense trusts anything he says. Remember Sharpiegate?

It's not just that he lied to us, it's that he actually believed that he could fool us by marking in his own story with a Sharpie.

He is calming the fears of the fearful.

He's already contradicted the predictions of his own epidemiologists. That's not calming. That's alarming.

"We have done an incredible job. We're going to continue," Trump said during a Black History Month reception at the White House. "It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear."
...
His statements add to the mixed messages from his administration about the novel virus, recently named COVID-19.

On Tuesday the CDC issued a warning to Americans that it is only a matter of time before the virus spreads in the US.

"It's not so much of a question of if this will happen in this country anymore, but a question of when this will happen," Dr. Nancy Messonnier, the director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said during a press call.
Trump claimed coronavirus could 'disappear' in the United States, adding to the administration's mixed messages

Unlike Obama, who actually encouraged those infected with Ebola to enter the States and caused more deaths.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama on Saturday urged Americans to avoid hysteria over Ebola, and played down the idea of travel bans from Ebola-ravaged countries in West Africa, explaining that restrictions could make things worse.
Obama says Ebola travel ban could make things worse

As it turned out, he was right.

More importantly, he deferred to the knowledge of epidemiologists, who quickly contained the virus. Mandatory quarantining of people who had contact with Ebola, quickly isolated the cases in the United States. No American who had not traveled in Africa died from the disease. Already, we've crossed that threshold with coronavirus. You were misled. Obama's willingness to let epidemiologists use rational control measures quickly ended the hazard in the United States. Donald's Trump's attempt to cover things up backfired. Now, we're going to see more cases and more people die.

 

[Yehren]

he sky is not falling.
It's a virus.
It happens every year.
It's a different strain every year.
Some years are worse than others.

Right. It's not the end of the world. This virus spreads more effectively precisely because it's not as virulent as ebola. Cuts to CDC and other public health agencies made things worse, but we're recovering. More people will die now than should be the case, but it will likely not be as devastating as some people think.

The panicky move to control information by requiring every agency to run their information through Pence, just increased the suspicion that it was a bigger problem than it is. Trump's instinctive reaction to trouble is to impose secrecy. It's a bad idea, and likely made things much worse.

 

[Yehren]

While it is true the Democrats will be certain to criticize Trump whenever they can and people who hate Trump may invent rumors, he's not helping the situation by the things he says. His history of lying doesn't make him credible. Exaggerating things to try to calm people also is misguided, so saying there would be a vaccine in two months didn't help. Remember Sars and Mer? There never was and still isn't a vaccine for them.

To be sure, Trump doesn't want people to panic or to blame him when they start to fear things. He is also probably in a panic himself about his chances of being re-elected if the Dow Jones really collapses. I approve of him wanting to calm people down; but honestly, he's not the person to do it. His devout followers seem to believe his every word, but even some of them don't. Mike Pence also doesn't seem like the best person to put in charge. Really now. Why not let the Surgeon General or someone at CDC do it? Having Pence do it makes it look political. So far as I can see, the Surgeon General is a sensible person -- and a doctor too.

There's a lot of sense in what you're saying. No doubt some democrats are gloating over the way this was handled. But it borders on criminal to claim that democrats are hoping for massive deaths so Trump gets blamed.

Most sensible is your suggestion to pick a non-political person who is a well-experienced epidemiologist to handle things, including information. That would go a long way to heading off panic.

 

[Josho]

It may pose a bigger problem for the American economy than for American healthcare. If people panic, that will make things worse.

Suppose people stop going to work in warehouses and trucks stop delivering to stores. Food supplies could run low in stores; but if people panic, they might be bare.

We already saw Wall Street take a dive. Don't be surprised if it goes down more. I expect it to. American businesses who may be making some profits now could show losses; and the fact is American businesses have too much debt. The American government has permitted it. In 1992, there were 98 US companies with a Triple A rating. That means they had good business practices and a low or reasonable debt level. Today that's down to two: I think they are Johnson & Johnson, and Microsoft.

Supply chain problems will likely hurt businesses' profits. How many businesses are ready to weather the storm if it comes? Tim Cook said they're already reopening some factories that were closed temporarily. Maybe Apple will the weather the storm. I wonder about other businesses; and as this virus spreads to other countries, expect more supply chain problems especially in poorer countries. China has a reasonably good health care system. What about things mined in poorer countries that get shipped to richer countries to go into manufacturing?

While it is true the Democrats will be certain to criticize Trump whenever they can and people who hate Trump may invent rumors, he's not helping the situation by the things he says. His history of lying doesn't make him credible. Exaggerating things to try to calm people also is misguided, so saying there would be a vaccine in two months didn't help. Remember Sars and Mer? There never was and still isn't a vaccine for them.

To be sure, Trump doesn't want people to panic or to blame him when they start to fear things. He is also probably in a panic himself about his chances of being re-elected if the Dow Jones really collapses. I approve of him wanting to calm people down; but honestly, he's not the person to do it. His devout followers seem to believe his every word, but even some of them don't. Mike Pence also doesn't seem like the best person to put in charge. Really now. Why not let the Surgeon General or someone at CDC do it? Having Pence do it makes it look political. So far as I can see, the Surgeon General is a sensible person -- and a doctor too.

Using the word "hoax" was unfortunate. I knew Trump meant the Democrats would try to spin things; but the way he put it made it sound as if there was no such thing as a corona virus except in the minds of Democrats. Limbaugh also didn't help when he said it was the common cold.

While accusing the Democrats of politicizing it (and that may be right in some cases), it is obvious that Trump himself and his pals are also politicizing it. I'd like to have a President who could calm people when they start to get fearful because they actually believe what the President says. We need a President devoted more to telling the truth than trying to put his own spin on the facts to benefit him politically.

Well when they get a vaccine they need to be affordable, and possibly even the government should step in and pay for vaccines for those that are less fortunate, as we are talking about people's lives, if a lot of people die because they cannot afford to see a doctor, that's just not right.

 

[ScottA]

Have you noticed how all the media are just chock full of reports about coronovirus (and the political virus called Bernie Sanders)? So now they have latched on to another panic-creating issue and they will beat it death. That is called fear-mongering.

"President Donald Trump on Sunday wrote that passengers traveling from certain high-risk countries will be screened before boarding as well as when they arrive in the United States.

The administration on Saturday expanded travel restrictions on Iran, where dozens of deaths have been reported in recent days, and raised an advisory that Americans should refrain from going to parts of Italy and South Korea, where the COVID-19 coronavirus has triggered quarantines..."

Trump: US Will Screen Travelers From High-Risk Countries Upon Arrival

On the other hand, feckless Justin Trudeau in Canada has decided to put all Canadians at risk by failing to do what is right and responsible.

Right, this all very serious...but equally serious is fear.

 

[quietthinker]

Righto all you armchair forecasters including both the yay and the nay sayers, the only perspective that matters is recognising the signs of the times. When this is done and your lives are in order then alarm is mitigated. Jesus said, when you see all these things then lift up your heads and rejoice for your redemption draws near. Luke 21:28

 

[ScottA]

Right. It's not the end of the world. This virus spreads more effectively precisely because it's not as virulent as ebola. Cuts to CDC and other public health agencies made things worse, but we're recovering. More people will die now than should be the case, but it will likely not be as devastating as some people think.

The panicky move to control information by requiring every agency to run their information through Pence, just increased the suspicion that it was a bigger problem than it is. Trump's instinctive reaction to trouble is to impose secrecy. It's a bad idea, and likely made things much worse.

Yeah, unfortunately anything and everything is now a weapon against Trump. If there was a school shooting that would be the latest rhetoric, but it's a virus...so here we go.

 

[Giuliano]

That is exactly what Trump is doing. He is calming the fears of the fearful. Unlike Obama, who actually encouraged those infected with Ebola to enter the States and caused more deaths.

Can you tell us how many cases of Ebola there were in the US? Can you tell us how many people died of Ebola in the US? When infected people (like doctors who caught it while working in other countries) returned, how many people did they pass it on to? How long did it last?

Do you know why Obama had that policy? Health experts said more people would die if travel was restricted the way some people wanted.

Experts Oppose Ebola Travel Ban, Saying It Would Cut Off Worst-Hit Countries

Ultimately, health specialists said, a ban would do more harm than good because it would isolate impoverished nations that are barely able to cope with the outbreak, and possibly cut them off from the international aid workers who provide critical help to contain the disease.

The White House on Thursday repeated its opposition to such a ban. President Obama said that he was following the advice of health experts and that “a travel ban is less effective than the measures that we are currently instituting.”

He listened to people who knew what they were talking about, unlike Mike Pence thought he could solve the HIV problem in Indiana by praying about it. He opposed the experts, and the HIV outbreak was disastrous.

Article here: How Mike Pence Made Indiana’s HIV Outbreak Worse

The only reason you and your Left-Liberals hate Trump is because he has accomplished what he said he would do, and he is draining the Swamp (but not as quickly as he should have). And he has also exposed the hypocrisy and lies of the Left and the Leftist media (the propaganda arm of the Democrats).

You spew this kind of garbage out as if you can make it true by saying it. You're way too political about it. I don't see that Trump has accomplished much at all. Oh wait, I forgot he completely solved the problems with Iran and North Korea, didn't he? Oh yes, and he has that wall built on the border, and yes, Mexico is paying for it.

Why do you write such crazy things? While I don't love Trump, I also don't have any wish to see a disease outbreak or an economic collapse. I actually agree with several of his stated goals -- but don't see him delivering on his promises. I think you may need a mental check up.

So now the Leftists are left with a genuine extreme Leftist -- Bernie the Communist (who honeymooned in Moscow), and is now an admirer of Fidel Castro, Lenin, Stalin, and that gang of Communist thugs who destroyed the Soviet Union and are now destroying Venezuela. (And this is the party of John F. Kennedy who recognized the Communist threat even though he was a Democrat).

More trash talk. Sanders is way too far to the left for me; I'll probably vote Libertarian if he's the candidate; but I'm not going to lie about him. I heard what he said about Castro. I also know Sanders was right when he said Castro solved the literacy problem in Cuba. I also knew some things about that that Sanders didn't mention. How did Cuba get the highest literacy rate in the world? How did a Communist country that couldn't solve its own economic problems do that? Do you know? You don't. If you did, you'd probably not say so but go on saying how bad Castro was and how bad Sander is. Well, I despised Castro and don't like Sanders; but what does my emotions have to do with anything? Castro did succeed at getting people in Cuba literate. Yes, even our enemies can do some things right. You are right about a few things from time to time, maybe by accident, but you're still right about some things.

Your kind of talk and Trump's kind of talk could make things worse.

Many of the poorer states are Republican strongholds, and Trump better make sure resources are spent so that any outbreaks in the US aren't a lot worse in Republican areas than in Democratic ones. He can't be too blatantly political about it; but Republicans who voted for him may not like it if he keeps calling it a "hoax" while their family members are getting sick and can't get adequate health care. I wouldn't worry so much about wealthier Democratic areas like Massachusetts, New York and California. I imagine they'll be able to dig up resources on their own if Mike Pence's plan is a flop. I worry more about the rural areas and the poorer states that usually vote Republican and where Trump has a lot of supporters. If the corona virus spreads to those areas, we could have a real mess -- perhaps worse than the mess Pence helped create in Indiana.

Let's be reasonable. Trump wants to be re-elected. That means he wants this situation handled in a way that doesn't create panic about the health risks by overreacting; and he surely doesn't want that kind of panic to make the Dow Jones go down more. The situation needs to be handled effectively -- and I'm sure he wants to do that. I hope he can do that. I doubt he can handle it in a way that makes most Americans feel he has the situation under control. Wishful thinking and lying are not going to solve this problem.

 

[Yehren]

The administration’s continued dismissal of the severity of the situation has also exacerbated concerns that it has not taken the threat seriously enough – and that it is already in a weakened position because of funding and personnel cuts to health programs.


The Trump administration has repeatedly proposed significant cuts to health and science agencies, including in the 2021 budget, in which he called for a close to 10% reduction in Health and Human Services funding overall and a nearly 16% slash at the CDC.


While Congress has ignored those proposed cuts and instead increased funding to the CDC and National Institutes of Health, some initiatives aimed at battling epidemics have been cut or eliminated.


In 2018, when the White House declined to provide the agency with additional resources, the CDC downsized by 80% programs designed to prevent the spread of infectious diseases. The same year, the administration shuttered the National Security Council’s global health security unit.


Robert O’Brien, Trump’s national security adviser, has suggested such cuts were part of a “streamlining” of the NSC. But former officials have expressed concern.


“This is why you have a National Security Council,” former Pentagon speechwriter John Gans, who wrote a book about the NSC, told NBC News this week.


Experts told the Guardian public health funding issues predate the Trump administration.


“It’s a lot of peoples’ fault,” Benjamin said, adding that the current administration has “exacerbated” the matter.


“Any time something new like this happens, it’s going to be messy,” the APHA executive director said of the coronavirus. But “several of the administration’s actions have undermined our preparedness.”
Coronavirus: Trump's mixed messages 'undermines public trust', experts say

 

[Yehren]

Yeah, unfortunately anything and everything is now a weapon against Trump.

This time, he made the weapon, and then gave it to the democrats. Covering up is never a good idea.

 

[Giuliano]

One of my kids plays on a traveling sports team, and we're scheduled to go to a major international tournament later this month. There's already talk of cancelling it if the outbreak gets worse.

I'm not an expert so I can't say if that kind of event should be canceled or not. I did find it interesting though that Trump went to India to speak in an arena with over 100,000 people. So far there's been only one or two cases in India and not in that area; but I wondered if that was wise.

If your child's team cancels that event, there's more to it than the disappointment. These things have an economic impact too. I read that a professional soccer match was held in an empty area in Italy. Some are wondering if the Olympics will go forward in Japan. Hong Kong has already seen such a reduction in people spending there, businesses are at risk of failing. Their solution (if it works) is to give every permanent resident money so businesses don't go bust.

Article here: Subscribe to read | Financial Times

We've seen in this thread that with some people, any criticism of Trump at all generates cries of "Trump Derangement Syndrome", as if the man were perfect and beyond questioning.

It doesn't encourage rational discussions, that's for sure. It's almost as if they love him so much, everything else should be sacrifice on the altar of his worship. That's how fascism can rise. I don't think we're that far gone yet, but there are some people who seem to hate the press and anyone else who expresses any criticism. I guess freedom of the press and free speech aren't that important to them. They may even think Congress should rubber stamp everything Trump wants.

That he put Pence...a man with a very anti-science history...in charge of our response shows that he sees this as primarily a political issue, rather than a public health issue. That ain't good.

It doesn't inspire confidence in me, that's for sure.

I was wondering the other day if maybe "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is real -- but found, not in people who oppose him, but in people who say some very odd things trying to support him.

February 11 -- Hank Kunnerman was saying God would protect the US from this virus because Trump was President.

Hank Kunneman: God Will Protect the U.S. From the Coronavirus Because of Trump | Right Wing Watch

During services at his Lord of Hosts church in Omaha, Nebraska, on Sunday, right-wing pastor Hank Kunneman proclaimed that God would protect the United States from the coronavirus because of President Donald Trump and his administration.

“Listen to the words that I speak to you at this moment, says the Living God,” Kunneman prophesied. “Why do you fear, United States? For I have spoke to you before, and I speak to you again. I have extended and opened a window of mercy to this nation at this time. Therefore the virus that they speak of, the prognostication, the diagnosis—my mercy is the quarantine that shall be greater than what they have spoken to you, United States.”

“Because of the administration that stands in this land, who honors me, who honors the covenants of your forefathers and of the Constitution, and because they have aligned themselves with Israel, and because they have sided on the right side of life—life in the womb, life given outside of the womb—therefore I give life to this nation, and I give mercy,” Kunneman said, on behalf of God. “Do not fear this virus, says the Spirit of God.”

Their tune has changed now. Now they're praying for God to contain the virus in the US and elsewhere. I seem to remember that Pence thought prayer would solve the AIDS crisis in Indiana.

February 25 Brenda Kunneman Commands a ‘Supernatural Inoculation’ to Cure the World of Coronavirus | Right Wing Watch

While the Centers for Disease Control warned today that the spread of the virus in the United States is now all but inevitable, last night Kunneman and his wife Brenda held a “Prophetic Pulse” conference call in which Brenda rebuked the virus and commanded a “supernatural inoculation of the spirit” to come on the Earth and “bring forth healing and a cure.”

“Right now, we speak over this situation with this coronavirus,” she proclaimed. “We say to that virus that the hands of the Lord have come to clap against you and destroy you, and we say that it shall be quarantined by the mercy of the living God.”

“It’s being contained in Europe and Heavenly Father, it’s being contained in various parts of the world,” Brenda Kunneman continued to prophesy. “While they say cases are popping up, we speak a holy containment and a quarantine by the Holy Spirit to go across the land. And we say, ‘Lord, Let the angels of the most high go forth to be commissioned, to walk, and to benefit those that are heirs of salvation.’ But even those that are not part of the covenant, Lord, we ask for your mercy to be upon them and to drive this virus out into the dark places.”

What was she saying really? That it was already being contained by God in Europe? Did people there pray to God more there than Americans had? First the Kunnemans said there was nothing to worry about for Americans as long as Trump was in the White House. Are they losing some of their faith in Trump and going back to faith in God?

 

[Yehren]

Here's one reason why Trump's reassurances aren't likely to work:

As President Donald Trump begins the third year of his presidency under Democratic oversight in Congress, the Pew Research Center reported Friday that confidence in the economy is stable but the American public is losing trust in the leader of the free world.

In a survey of 1,500 adults between Jan. 9 through Jan. 14, Pew researchers found that 58 percent of respondents said they trust what Trump says less than previous presidents, which has crept up from 51 percent in February 2017, shortly after Trump took office.

In tandem, 59 percent said the Trump administration’s ethical standards were “not good or poor,” according to the survey. Only 39 percent of respondents felt that the president’s ethical standards were up to par, which is 5 points lower than President George W Bush in June 2006, when favorability over the Iraq War had begun to sour.
Poll: Trump Starts Third Year With Low Public Trust

Another reason is the muzzling of government scientists, who must clear anything they say to the press, with Mike Pence.

Which is kinda like telling the clergy that they have to clear their sermons with an atheist.

Another reason is that the government has already dropped the ball in some really embarrassing ways:

(WASHINGTON) — A government whistleblower has filed a complaint alleging that some federal workers did not have the necessary protective gear or training when they were deployed to help Americans evacuated from China during the coronavirus outbreak.


The complaint deals with Health and Human Services Department employees sent to Travis and March Air Force bases in California to assist the quarantined evacuees. The Office of Special Counsel, a federal agency that investigates personnel issues, confirmed Thursday it has received the unnamed whistleblower’s complaint and has opened a case.


Rep. Jimmy Gomez, D-Calif., said the whistleblower recently contacted his office, also alleging retaliation by higher-ups for having flagged safety issues.

...
The whistleblower was among a team of about a dozen employees from the agency who had been deployed to help connect the evacuees with government assistance that they might qualify for to ease their return. The team was there from mid-January until earlier this month.

Although team members had gloves at times and at other times masks, they lacked full protective gear and received no training on how to protect themselves in a viral hot zone, according to a description provided by the congressional office. They had no respirators. While helping the evacuees, team members noticed that workers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention were in full gear to protect them from getting sick.
Whistleblower: Workers Helping Coronavirus Evacuees Lacked Proper Protection

You know that the administration will try to find and punish the whistleblower, but the real issue is why those people were sent in without protection. It's like there's no adults in the WH.

 

[Giuliano]

The sky is not falling.
It's a virus.
It happens every year.
It's a different strain every year.
Some years are worse than others.
These annual epidemics are estimated to result in about 290 000 to 650 000 deaths every year.
You want to panic, then panic.

I wish the Trump administration expressed this fact calmly instead of some of the other things they've said thinking they needed to be political about it.

 

[Yehren]

During services at his Lord of Hosts church in Omaha, Nebraska, on Sunday, right-wing pastor Hank Kunneman proclaimed that God would protect the United States from the coronavirus because of President Donald Trump and his administration.
...
therefore I give life to this nation, and I give mercy,” Kunneman said, on behalf of God. “Do not fear this virus, says the Spirit of God.”

Mr. Kunneman should consider that God is not mocked. And he should tremble.

 

[Giuliano]

Well when they get a vaccine they need to be affordable, and possibly even the government should step in and pay for vaccines for those that are less fortunate, as we are talking about people's lives, if a lot of people die because they cannot afford to see a doctor, that's just not right.

Agree. If the government doesn't step up to help poor people, this kind of health problem only gets worse and worse.

There may never be a vaccine. One may be possible, but it still could take a long time. Sars and Mer still don't have a vaccine. When Trump talked about having a vaccine in a few months, he was blowing hot air. That doesn't make things better. It undermines his credibility in the long term.

 

[Yehren]

Five more people died from the virus in Washington.