Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will

[KingJ]

Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers (governing authorities). For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

That verse is pretty clear. Now, let's use some lateral thought.

- Would God ever ordain someone to a position of leadership if He didn't think he / she was fit for it?
- Would God ever give a leader power if He didn't trust them with it?

If your answer is YES to the above, you believe God is evil and makes mistakes. Fact is, God is good Psalm 136:1 and does not make mistakes (look at yourself in the mirror).

So, the classic question arises....'Why in the universe would God give Lucifer so much power and authority in heaven?' He had clearly gained God's trust more then any other angel.

Lucifer clearly had free will. The power to honour / respect or dishonour / shame God was in his hands.

Two blurry matters are now as clear as daylight.

1. Saying, corrupt leaders is God's doing, is on par with blaming God for the actions of the devil.
2. Saying God does not select leaders and give them power based on merit and trust, is to call God evil and dumb.

Conclusion: If you can figure out the reason for God not re-enlisting Lucy as His covering cherub, you will grasp that all leaders who God has trusted, have free will to shame Him.

Eze 12:14-17 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

 

[Floyd]

Well said KingJ; this a subject most don't know, or won't know, because of their free will!
Here are 3 Links on this.
Satan's origins; (Separate study)
Satan's Motivation: (Separate study)
Satan's people: (Separate study)
They are found in : www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subjectindex.

Regards.
Floyd.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for that link. Some great studies there.

Just to add to my OP:

God always achieves His goal.

The method in which God achieves His goals is of paramount importance because all judge Him according to it. Example, many will say that God purposed Judas and Pharoah for His will. But that would make God responsible for the evil they did. God hardened Pharoah's heart after he was king...not as a baby. Harden heart = on par with being handed over to a reprobate mind. Scripture says Jesus was '''betrayed'''...would that be true if He knew it in advance? :huh:

Who would select a person to manage their business that they didn't trust? Now how much more God...now how much clearer can free will be?

 

[FHII]

There are a couple of problems with this. First, Romans 13:1-8 are not talking about government leaders. They are talking about the ministry: in other words, its talking about following the leadership of the Church. Now, in other epistles, Paul (and I think Peter as well) does talk about earthly government leaders and following them, but not here.

The second problem is that the king of Babylon (Lucifer) found out who was in charge and who built "his" kingdom. You can read about that in Daniel 4, which is the companion chapter to Isa 14.

 

[KingJ]

There are a couple of problems with this. First, Romans 13:1-8 are not talking about government leaders. They are talking about the ministry: in other words, its talking about following the leadership of the Church. Now, in other epistles, Paul (and I think Peter as well) does talk about earthly government leaders and following them, but not here.

The second problem is that the king of Babylon (Lucifer) found out who was in charge and who built "his" kingdom. You can read about that in Daniel 4, which is the companion chapter to Isa 14.

Hi there.

1. Would you mind clarifying why then most interpretations use 'governing authorities' in Rom 13:1.
2. Not sure what your point is? What will I find in Dan 4?

Lastly, why the wild goose chase and missing the point of the entire OP?

 

[FHII]

Hi there.

1. Would you mind clarifying why then most interpretations use 'governing authorities' in Rom 13:1.
2. Not sure what your point is? What will I find in Dan 4?

Lastly, why the wild goose chase and missing the point of the entire OP?

For your first request, no. I can't clarify why most interpretations use "governing authorities". You'd have to ask them. I can give you reasons I think they do, or I can give you reasons why I think it is talking about the ministry (which comes down to the fact that 3 times it clarifies that the person spoken of is "the minister of God".)

As for the second request.... Simple: Lucifer is not Satan. It was Nebuchanezzer. First off, In Isa 14:4 it says it is talking to the King of Babylon. There are other clues (it specifically calls Lucifer a man and give him man-like qualities Satan wouldn't have). So, when you go to Daniel 4 you can read Nebuachazzer's own account of what Isaiah summarized in Chapter 14.

So if you think I'm sending you on a wild goose chase and missing the point, I'd like to know why your points don't even fit your conclusion.

 

[KingJ]

Lucifer is not satan. Ok, this is where I say goodbye. Nice talking to you.

 

[KingJ]

.
So if you think I'm sending you on a wild goose chase and missing the point, I'd like to know why your points don't even fit your conclusion.

FHI, you have baffled me. You are a regular poster and yet seem like a troll here. Sure, many don't see Lucifer = satan. Why raise that irrelevant tangent?

You make the above statement off a disagreement of Rom 13:1....when every point therafter and the Ezekial passage supports my conclusion.

You don't contribute to the bottom line and yet post?

Am I miss-reading your intention?

 

[FHII]

FHI, you have baffled me. You are a regular poster and yet seem like a troll here. Sure, many don't see Lucifer = satan. Why raise that irrelevant tangent?

You make the above statement off a disagreement of Rom 13:1....when every point therafter and the Ezekial passage supports my conclusion.

You don't contribute to the bottom line and yet post?

Am I miss-reading your intention?

Here's what I find interesting:

"Lucifer is not satan. Ok, this is where I say goodbye. Nice talking to you."

Well, welcome back! I thought you were saying goodbye and weren't going to continue the conversation. Nice to see you still think of me as a troll.

here's the thing: 1. Romans 13 is not talking about an earthly government. 2. Lucifer is not Satan. 3. Eze 28 is not talking about Satan either. Yet you are using all three things to build your case on earthly governments being proof of "free will". You have no solid foundation for your arguements. So why don't you find something that actually is correct and THEN discuss "free will". You actually could with Eze 28 if you properly identify who God was speaking of (the King of Tyrus.... A man. Not Satan).

Please, pull your arguments together and get back to me with scripture that actually has something to do with your conclusion.
Wanted to add something I just thought of.... If you want to discuss government and whether or not there is free will, you can actually use Lucifer IF you know who he is. It was the king of Babylon (which is why I sent you on "a wild goose chase") and the king's account is found in Daniel 4. Obviously, after reading Daniel 4, there isn't much support for free will.

 

[KingJ]

Well, yes I may kick myself later for indulging you. But it is my thread. Perhaps troll was a bit harsh, but you must understand the trolls here are tiring and your posts are not amiable.

The only 'error' you have corrected is Ezekiel 12 = 28. Eze 28 is about the prince of Tyre, well done...but it represents satan. You had me doubting my memory there for a moment http://www.bibleexplained.com/prophets/ezek/ez28.htm.

Now, the simple point is that God appoints leaders. You don't want to accept that happens on earth, I can't blame you. But that happened with the devil.

1. Does God make mistakes?
2. Did God appoint the devil knowing he would fall.

If you say yes to # 1, you are wrong. God does not make mistakes. If you say yes to # 2 you are wrong. Every evil done by the fallen angels and the devil is traced to their own will. God did not set him up for a fall. God did not influence / set up many angels (making them look to the devil as a leader, knowing he would fall, heavily influence their fall) for a fall.

I just thought the appointed leader approach would help stir up those minds that still don't believe in true free will.

You can present a strong argument supporting ''no free will = good God'' ?

 

[FHII]

Well, yes I may kick myself later for indulging you. But it is my thread. Perhaps troll was a bit harsh, but you must understand the trolls here are tiring and your posts are not amiable.

The only 'error' you have corrected is Ezekiel 12 = 28. Eze 28 is about the prince of Tyre, well done...but it represents satan. You had me doubting my memory there for a moment http://www.bibleexplained.com/prophets/ezek/ez28.htm.

You brought up three points of scripture: 1. Romans 13; 2. Isa 14:10 (by referring to Satan as Lucifer) and 3. Eze 28. I stand by my assertations that your basis is wrong to start with on these points. I cannot these points in a discussion on whether "evil earthly governments" is evidence of free will, nor can I discuss Satan's free will based on a misconception that Isa and Eze are somehow representing Satan: they aren't.

We can discuss Satan's being in Heaven and fall from Heaven, but only in the proper context in which I'd refer you to Rev 12 and John 8:44.

We can also discuss Lucifer and the King/Prince of Tyre, but again in proper context, which is earthly men as governors.

Now, the simple point is that God appoints leaders. You don't want to accept that happens on earth, I can't blame you. But that happened with the devil.

I absolutely believe God appoints leaders on earth. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "that happened with the devil". Do you mean he is the appointed "leader" on earth? I believe he has power on earth, I believe he has influence on earth, but the leader??? The earth is not Satan's.

1. Does God make mistakes?
2. Did God appoint the devil knowing he would fall.

If you say yes to # 1, you are wrong. God does not make mistakes. If you say yes to # 2 you are wrong. Every evil done by the fallen angels and the devil is traced to their own will. God did not set him up for a fall. God did not influence / set up many angels (making them look to the devil as a leader, knowing he would fall, heavily influence their fall) for a fall.

My answer to question 1 is no. My question to question 2 is that God imprisioned Satan in this earth and yes, he absolutely knew he would fall. If you want to say God "appointed the devil", fine. I can go with that. But the earth is not his, and he isn't even the prince of the kings of the earth.

I have a verse that says Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and another that said God declared the end from the beginning. I absolutely believe that all calamity has to do with Satan and he has his God appointed place in it, but I also have another verse that says the Jesus was slain BEFORE the foundations of the world. Thus, God put the cure in place before the disease was released!

So I ask you this: Did God know before hand that Satan would fall, and his angels with them? Now the follow up question is your very own: Did God make a mistake?

 

[Floyd]

As for the second request.... Simple: Lucifer is not Satan. It was Nebuchanezzer. First off, In Isa 14:4 it says it is talking to the King of Babylon. There are other clues (it specifically calls Lucifer a man and give him man-like qualities Satan wouldn't have). So, when you go to Daniel 4 you can read Nebuachazzer's own account of what Isaiah summarized in Chapter 14.

FH11: your comment re. Satan to me does not make sense!

Would you please read the following and tell us where the error is, as you have dicounted the usual sources of info. on Satan!

Satan's origins; (Separate study)

Satan's Motivation: (Separate study)

Satan's people: (Separate study)

If you still disagree with KingJ's comments, I would appreciate your source of information on Satan!

If the above Links do not work; please find in www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subjectindex.

Floyd.

 

[FHII]

As for the second request.... Simple: Lucifer is not Satan. It was Nebuchanezzer. First off, In Isa 14:4 it says it is talking to the King of Babylon. There are other clues (it specifically calls Lucifer a man and give him man-like qualities Satan wouldn't have). So, when you go to Daniel 4 you can read Nebuachazzer's own account of what Isaiah summarized in Chapter 14.

FH11: your comment re. Satan to me does not make sense!

Would you please read the following and tell us where the error is, as you have dicounted the usual sources of info. on Satan!

Satan's origins; (Separate study)

Satan's Motivation: (Separate study)

Satan's people: (Separate study)

If you still disagree with KingJ's comments, I would appreciate your source of information on Satan!

If the above Links do not work; please find in www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subjectindex.

Floyd.

My information on Satan is from the Bible. Plain and simple. I don't mind Bible studies, commentaries and strong dictionary meanings, but they should not be used to counter what the Bible says.

I looked up one of your subjects (Satan's origin) and it's pretty far fetched in connecting meanings of words to the word Lucifer. On the other hand, it's short sided because it does not consider the entire chapter of Isa 14.

Here is what happened: Like so many that believe Satan was Lucifer, they focus on a few key words like "thou are fallen from heaven". Things begin to stir in their mind and they remember reading that Satan fell from heaven. That's true, of course. THEN they went to Genesis 3:1 and looked up a definition, dug at least 3 definitions below it (I say 3 because I looked two levels below and found NOTHING that indicated "brightness") and figured the serpent was "bright" and Lucifer means "bright".

But they ignored the rest of Isa 14. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE look at verse 4. Who does it say the proverb is addressing? It says, "the King of Babylon". God did not tell Isaiah to preach against Satan, he said take it up to the King of Babylon. That should be the end of discussion, but if you go down to verse 16, you will see something else. He's called a "man". This was an earthly being unlike Satan.

Let's get back to keywords people use and let me bring this conversation back to the focus of the original post. People look at Isa 14:13-14 and they see some stuff that interests them. Lucifer is saying "I will ascend into heaven, I will be like the most high", etc. Ok, fine.... They immediately assume since Satan was in heaven (yet he fell FROM heaven, never ascended into it) that this chapter must be talking about him. My job, then (if I am to believe it was actually the King of Babylon like the chapter says) is to show did the king of Babylon ever try to ascend into heaven.

That's why I referenced Daniel 4.

It's remarkable because this portion of the book is written by Nebuchadnezzer himself. It's HIS account of what happened. He had a dream that troubled him. In this dream he saw his tree "reach unto heaven" (verse 11). There is described a sort of peace in the land (verse 12) which you can cross reference with Isa 14:7-8.

Of course, the prophecy says the tree will be cut down, signifying the fall of Nebuchadnezzer's kingdom. The question is how and why did it come to pass? That answer is found in verse 30. Nebuchadnezzer proclaimed "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built...." In short, he was taking credit for his kingdom, and it upset God! Verse 32 says the Most High rules the kingdom of men ( you can cross reference that verse with Isa 14:14 where Lucifer said he would be like the most High) AND the LORD gives kingdoms to whom he will.

In short, God wanted the credit for the Babylonian Empire and Nebuchadnezzar sought to claim it. We can discuss the fallout historical events afterwards, as well as the reason why God allowed the Babylonian Empire to flourish, but overall since God rules the kingdoms of men and choses whom he will for his purpose it really doesn't sound like "free will" to me.

So there's the tie in to "evil-rulers = proof of free will". It ain't true. God built Babylon. God put Nebuchanezzer in charge. God took it away from him and all for his purpose.

Added:

I didn't really give "my source" of information and talk about it much. Like I said, people like to refer to Isa 14 and Eze 28 as scripture for Satan, but the Bible clearly is talking about men. For references on Satan falling from heaven, there are very few. Luke 10:18 is where Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven, but doesn't go into detail. Revelation 12 is the only account of Satan's fall that I can think of. There was war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. They were cast out into the earth. Why? The reason why is not given in Rev 12. It just says there was war and he was cast out. People look to Isa and Eze for the reason why, but the only scripture that really gives us a hint is John 8:44. He was a murderer from the beginning (when was the beginning? Gen 1:1 is the only logical answer). He abode not in truth and there was no truth in him.

What else do we know about Satan? Well, we know alot from the scripture. His big job is to accuse the brethren (to whom? God!) so he's jelous about something. We also know that he is still subject to God's will and can do nothing unless God allows it to happen. Perfect example, of course is the Book of Job.

 

[Floyd]

FH11:
Re. your reply, thanks.
However, we are never going to agree.

But they ignored the rest of Isa 14. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE look at verse 4. Who does it say the proverb is addressing? It says, "the King of Babylon". God did not tell Isaiah to preach against Satan, he said take it up to the King of Babylon. That should be the end of discussion, but if you go down to verse 16, you will see something else. He's called a "man". This was an earthly being unlike Satan.

Your point here, v4 refers to a "king of Babylon", yes, but, the name Babylon means "the gate of the god" . See: Babylon (Separate study ),
This is the physical of the "mystery" Babylon of Revelation. See: Mystery Babylon: (Separate study)
It is the source of all pagan gods and religions, which have spread worldwide since Gen. 11:7-8. This was the entry point of Satan's attempts to eventually rule the earth; which effort is still underway.
Nimrod was the founder with his mother; and their purpose (under Satan's guidance) was to destroy all attempts by Jehovah God of Israel to increase faith in Him in the world's population; by the vehicle of Israel!

Of course, the prophecy says the tree will be cut down, signifying the fall of Nebuchadnezzer's kingdom. The question is how and why did it come to pass? That answer is found in verse 30. Nebuchadnezzer proclaimed "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built...." In short, he was taking credit for his kingdom, and it upset God! Verse 32 says the Most High rules the kingdom of men ( you can cross reference that verse with Isa 14:14 where Lucifer said he would be like the most High) AND the LORD gives kingdoms to whom he will.

In short, God wanted the credit for the Babylonian Empire and Nebuchadnezzar sought to claim it. We can discuss the fallout historical events afterwards, as well as the reason why God allowed the Babylonian Empire to flourish, but overall since God rules the kingdoms of men and choses whom he will for his purpose it really doesn't sound like "free will" to me.

Free will is at the centre of the Bible!

The reason that all people have freewill, is to use it (a vote if you will) either for Satan (usually in the form of "no God") or for God/ Christ Jesus!

Satan's challenge started this process; and God the Father (who is Love), has graciously allowed this to continue until its completion in the future!
For an understanding of God's Love (which none of us can understand except in small degree): see below:


The main thrust for Satan's pernicious attention had been heaven's occupants and the tribes of Israel. Abraham was chosen by God! He was called "the friend of God," (2Chr. 20:7, Isa. 41:8, Jms. 2:23,) because his heart was against the idolatry of his father, and the nation Ur, which derived from Babylon! After Paul's declaration (Acts 28:25-28,) all the world's nations became the subject of Satan’s attention; which showed in the Wisdom of Jehovah Zebaoth, that the failure of Satan at The Cross and the failure of Israel to accept Christ (Acts 28:26,) increased the eventual harvest for Christ / Jehovah. Most people on earth are fixated with their flesh life, which is natural enough. However, God has ordained that they are not content, and can only find rest, peace and understanding in Him, albeit in simple sincere trust, which most people find hard to give unless they encounter Christ, personally. Because all the efforts of Satan are eventually self defeating, and will be seen as such by heavenly and earthly creation, the Almighty in Christ will vanquish Satan, but not until heaven and earth have been reminded that Satan stands for deceit, destruction, suffering, and death, as opposed to the Love, Peace, Justice and Righteousness of Jehovah/Christ. After that reminder, Satan and his followers will be consigned to doom (Rev. 20:10.) All that remains for individuals at the present time (i.e. this age) is to trust in God's work, in Christ Jesus. The timing of the above is in the hands of the Father only (Matt. 24:36,) and His timing is perfect (Matt. 5:48.) The perfect timing of God the Father means that Satan is defeated by perfect Love (a concept totally alien to mankind which means that Satan is defeated by Love, which is God (1 John 4:8-16!) Had Satan been destroyed at the time of his rebellion, none of the above could have come into play, and such action by the Almighty would have been seen by creation as dictatorial, and His plan of Love could not unfold to fruition. As the plan now unfolds, God will indeed be seen as Ultimate Love.

Your comment that Neb. was proud is true; but God's motive in bringing him to his knees was to establish His credentials with the doubting of Israel, not that He wanted to "claim the credit"; as God has no need of such embellishment.
Regarding your comment that Satan has been cast out of Heaven; again I disagree , that is an event for the yet future!
Regards.
Floyd.

PS: if the links don't work; go to www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subject Index.

 

[FHII]

To claim the free will is at the centre of the Bible is a matter of opinion. There is freedom in the Bible, and there are men and women making choices in the Bible, but not all the time. But one thing about the Bible, God's will always wins out, even if it opposes man's will.

There are plenty of times when God pulled strings and directly caused things to happen and they are told about in the Bible. God even chose certain people and predestinated them before they were born, and that's talked about in the Bible (and I'm not even talking about Jacob and Esau nor the Ephisians!). This doesn't even account for the many possibilities that are untold, including people today.

One more thing.... Yes, God is love, but that's not all he is, nor is it directly Satan's shortcoming. John 8:44 again says there was no truth in Satan.

 

[Floyd]

As I said; we disagree, but probably only on some things!
I am glad you agree that God is Love! There can't be greater than that!
We will not see eye to eye most of the time though, that is clear from the way you write!
Floyd.

 

[FHII]

Ok, thanks for the conversation, Floyd. I'm sure we do agree on many things.

 

[Floyd]

Lets keep trying.
Floyd.

 

[IBeMe]

Romans 13:1 is talking about "power which the Lord hath given" to "God's ministers".

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good."

2 Corinthians 13:2 "... if I come again, I will not spare:"

2 Corinthians 13:10 "Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction."


Ezekiel 28 is clearly speaking about more than the king of Tyrus.

"... in the day that thou wast created."

Satan was created; the king was born.

The king of Tyrus wasn't, "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth..."; that's Satan, the fallen angel.

"Function of Symbolism: Symbolism gives writer freedom to add double levels of meanings to his work: a literal one that is self-evident and the symbolic one whose meaning is far more profound than the literal one. The symbolism, therefore, gives universality to the characters and the themes of a piece of literature. Symbolism in literature evokes interest in readers as they find an opportunity to get an insight of the writer’s mind on how he views the world and how he thinks of common objects and actions, having broader implications."

Some text is about the king Tyrus, Satan, and both.

Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

God is the Master inventor; all life is engineered down to the atom level.

God is the Master artist; look around you.

God is also the Master writer; representing many different levels of understanding; past present and future.

Scripture can be speaking of a man, and the spiritual nature at the same time.

What about the scriptures about Jesus, man and Son of God.

God uses Satan to test; faith must be exercised to grow.

"Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

God uses Satan to punish and promote repentance.

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

"For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts."

Present (at that time), future, and end time.


Isaiah 14

This passage begins in chapter 13, which clearly includes end-time prophecy.

Isaiah 13:1 "The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see."

Isaiah 13:11 "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

So NO, these scriptures aren't just about a particular king.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

We can't dismiss the satanic power behind kingdoms when reading the scriptures.

Daniel 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

It's not paramount that we fully understand these Scriptures, but it's essential that we understand this.

"Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

.

 

[Floyd]

I like IBeMe.
Floyd.