Was Satan a cherub?

[TonyChanYT]

The answer is complicated because the concept of satan evolved over time.

Here, I give a simplified yes answer.

Ezekiel 28:

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD:

The prince of Tyre was a type of Satan. Like Satan, he was proud.

“Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,’ yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god.

Like Satan, he was wise:

5 by your great wisdom in your trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth.

Pride in everything is a recurring theme for Satan.

11 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me: 12“Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Beauty is another attribute that the prince of Tyre and Satan were proud of.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

That's the connection of the satanic creature in Eden with the creature that is called Satan or the devil in the NT.

every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.

He was anointed.

I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

This cherub was blameless initially but he changed:

17Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.

Again and again, the prince of Tyre and the satanic creature were proud of their beauty and wisdom.

I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.

For the prince of Tyre, God would expose him before kings. For the satanic creature he would be cast out of heaven.

This is confirmed in (NIV) Isaiah 14:

12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”

That's crazy arrogance, conceit, and self-deception. It's delusional madness!

Was Satan a cherub?

I think so. I think the evidence is pretty good.

 

[dev553344]

The answer is complicated because the concept of satan evolved over time.

Here, I give a simplified yes answer.

Ezekiel 28:


The prince of Tyre was a type of Satan. Like Satan, he was proud.


Like Satan, he was wise:


Pride in everything is a recurring theme for Satan.


Beauty is another attribute that the prince of Tyre and Satan were proud of.


That's the connection of the satanic creature in Eden with the creature that is called Satan or the devil in the NT.


He was anointed.


This cherub was blameless initially but he changed:


Again and again, the prince of Tyre and the satanic creature were proud of their beauty and wisdom.


For the prince of Tyre, God would expose him before kings. For the satanic creature he would be cast out of heaven.

This is confirmed in (NIV) Isaiah 14:


That's crazy arrogance, conceit, and self-deception. It's delusional madness!

Was Satan a cherub?

I think so. I think the evidence is pretty good.

Actually the 2nd book of Enoch gives a better explanation. It is a lost manuscript that wasn't adopted by the Romans into the current canon. It was later found in the dead sea scrolls.

It spells out dark angels in the lower levels of heaven that tortured sinners. I think they were probably cast out when Jesus ascended into heaven. They are dark spirits really that have power to torture other spirits.

 

[Ziggy]

I believe Adam became the Adversary (Satan) to God when he took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and thought that he could be as God.

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I believe that what went through Lucifers mind is exactly what went through Adam's mind right before he took a bite.

Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

But then he got caught and God threw him out of Eden.

Paul tells us that we should have the mind of Christ in us...

Phl 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This last Adam created in the image and likeness of God, just like the first Adam, was humble and obedient.
He was not an adversary, he did not go against God's commands.

So if we are to have the mind of Christ which is humble and obedient, then would it too far fetched to believe that Lucifer and Tyrus and those kings which considered themselves gods.. didn't have the same mind as Adam #1.

I believe we have a war of minds in our own mind between whether we will follow Adam's ways of thinking or Jesus' ways of thinking.
And the temptations Jesus faced in the wilderness was the war of minds in his own mind.
And he overcame the impulse to perform miracles without God's approval.
He did not turn the stones into bread, he did not cast himself off the cliff, and he did not give into bowing down to his own humanity and pride.

He rebuked himself.

This is the actual cross we all must take up and follow him and leave the old mind of Adam behind.

Rom 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Those my thoughts on the matter.

Hugs

 

[Zao is life]

I believe Adam became the Adversary (Satan) to God when he took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and thought that he could be as God.

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

I believe that what went through Lucifers mind is exactly what went through Adam's mind right before he took a bite.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Adam became the adversary (Satan) to God". If you meant that Adam is the Satan mentioned in the account, then I don't agree. Satan was already there as a third party, planting seeds of thought in Eve's mind.

In Genesis, the account of Eve's creation is only written after the record of Adam being given the commandment. So Eve would have learned it from Adam. "Has God indeed said..?" would hardly have been said to Adam, because Adam knew exactly what God had said, and would have immediately recognized the person asking such a question as "a snake" (no pun intended).

It's as though the 'serpent' was indirectly saying to Eve, "Eve, your husband has either misunderstood what God said" (implying Adam wasn't too bright), "OR (even worse) he's lying to you, he's withholding something from you".

It didn't work. So Satan knew it was time to directly lie himself, implying this time, that God was a liar:

"You will not surely die. But God knows that you will be like God if you eat of this tree".

Adam was equally as guilty, and in a way even more guilty - because Adam knew exactly what God had said. He had heard the words, received them directly from God. But Eve had learned the command from her husband.

But Satan was a third party.

Adam did become an adversary of God from the moment he disobeyed. Their action of disobedience made them adversaries. Servants of Satan, the adversary.
​

Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isaiah is talking about the king of Babylon exalting himself and (typically) using imagery that his readers would understand. The king of Babylon had exalted himself "above the stars of God" (God's chosen people). The king of Babylon was going to be brought low. The language is metaphorical and is 100% typical of the prophets.

It's true that ever since Adam, the spirit influencing the thoughts and heart of each human king who exalts himself, is Satan, so the prophecy talks beyond the king of Babylon to the spirit behind him also - but the prophecy was speaking primarily to a human king - the king of Babylon.

The words in the original are "shining star, son of the morning" which in Latin translates as "Lucifer" (the ancient Latin name for the morning star), and so the word found its way into the Latin translation of the Bible, and from there into the first KJV - but all new translations have corrected it, and taken out the word "Lucifer", because it's not in the original text (which reads simply "shining star, son of the morning").

That was also the only place in the entire Bible you ever found the word "Lucifer" - because it was in the Latin translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The word has nothing to do with the name of Satan, and the prophecy is not talking to or about Satan, but to and about the king of Babylon.

But then he got caught and God threw him out of Eden.

You made me laugh here Naughty boy, Adam!

Paul tells us that we should have the mind of Christ in us...

Yes He is the last Adam, and as the Son of man He has the mind that Adam had been given when he was created, before he sinned. But He is also the Word of God, the Son of God, so His mind is far more than Adam can ever fully have.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Yes. The Word of God became flesh. It's not what Adam and his descendants could ever do, but we must learn by Christ's example about what it means to sacrifice ourselves. Because we tend to be too full of pride to make ourselves less worthy than we believe we should be considered by others. Christ humbled Himself a GREAT, GREAT deal by becoming a man.

This last Adam created in the image and likeness of God, just like the first Adam, was humble and obedient.
He was not an adversary, he did not go against God's commands.

So if we are to have the mind of Christ which is humble and obedient, then would it too far fetched to believe that Lucifer and Tyrus and those kings which considered themselves gods.. didn't have the same mind as Adam #1.

You've lost me. All human kings are the seed of Adam and Eve, like we are. And together with them we all have the same mind as Adam #1 because we are all fallen, and all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our minds are human - as human as the mind of Adam and Eve #1 after the fall. Just like today some world leaders are a little better than others, and some are really bad. There is nothing new under the sun.

I believe we have a war of minds in our own mind between whether we will follow Adam's ways of thinking or Jesus' ways of thinking.

Yes. In the Bible it's called the flesh warring against the Spirit of Christ, because the two are contrary to one another.

And the temptations Jesus faced in the wilderness was the war of minds in his own mind.

He was without sin.

And he overcame the impulse to perform miracles without God's approval.
He did not turn the stones into bread, he did not cast himself off the cliff, and he did not give into bowing down to his own humanity and pride.

Interesting way of putting it. I'm not sure if someone without sin would feel that impulse, though Satan obviously intended for Christ to feel that impulse. Jesus was tempted by Satan, but maybe rather by being tempted to destroy Satan on the spot because He knew what Satan was doing, and it would no doubt have made Jesus incensed at the audacity of this created angel-become-adversary thing even thinking in his pride that he could tempt the Son of God who was without sin, through the use of sinful human impulses.

Exactly how someone who was without sin could be tempted, and was tempted, could be the subject of a very long discussion all on its own. I've often thought about it myself, but without coming to any real answers.

But definitely it was what we would probably call "mind games" that Satan thought he could play with the Son of God. I believe it's highly possible that it would have made Jesus indignant and incensed, and even angry - but He learned obedience by only reacting in accordance with the way God His Father willed for Him to react at the time. And that's only one way in which Jesus learned obedience.

He rebuked himself.

I disagree. Totally. He rebuked Satan only. Jesus never ever had need to rebuke Himself. Jesus was without sin, and Satan is not man, and man is not Satan.

Rom 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Those my thoughts on the matter.

Hugs

Yes. We must not be conformed to this world and yes, we must be transformed by letting God, the Holy Spirit and the Word of God transform our minds, through our submission to Him.

Some interesting thoughts you're expressing here.

 

[Ziggy]

Exactly how someone who was without sin could be tempted, and was tempted, could be the subject of a very long discussion all on its own.

Was Eve sinful when she was tempted? Until they ate of the fruit there was no sin.

There still some things we're caught up in with the imagery. I don't believe snakes talk no matter how many times Trump reads that poem.

If you go to the end of Revelation the only ones on the outside of the kingdom is liars, adulterers, murderers etc.
These are on the outside. This serpent whoever or whatever we imagine it to be somehow snuck into the garden to entice Eve to coerce her husband to turn against God.

If Jesus had turned those stones into bread he would have been listening to that same snake in the garden that told Eve to eat the fruit.

Difference is. Jesus said NO.

Job says something I find interesting...


Job 31:24
If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, Thou art my confidence;
Job 31:25
If I rejoiced because my wealth was great, and because mine hand had gotten much;
Job 31:26
If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness;
Job 31:27
And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
Job 31:28
This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.

Job 31:33
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

During Jesus's life he came across a lot of demons that had to be "cast out" .
These demons control the mind.

The man among the tombs...

Luk 8:27
And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
Luk 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luk 8:30
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

fastforward:

Luk 8:35
Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

as opposed to what mind? If he was now in his right mind, what mind was he in before?

I believe the serpent in the garden is Adam's Ego.
But they needed a scapegoat.
And when God questioned the snake, surprise, he didnt say a thing. Because snakes cant talk.

Now we also know that God doesn't tempt men.
In the case of Baalim and his donkey talking, it was God who caused the donkey to warn Baalim of the angel that was before him.
God opened the donkeys mouth to give warning.

I dont believe God opened the snakes mouth to decieve Eve. I suppose its possible. I suppose God could of been testing them.
Somehow that don't feel right.

Now James says it like this:

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

It's his Ego.

Job says he didnt hide iniquity in his heart like Adam did. Adam was created perfect in the day that he was made until iniquity was found in him. The demonized man returned to his right mind, and James says temptations come from our own lusts.

Just tryin to connect the dots.

I don't believe snakes can talk. The only other explanation is it was one of those vipers in the NT (Pharissees) that convinced Eve it was ok.

Mat 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Maybe it was one of these guys who snuck into the garden which had been sitting outside the pearly gates in Revelation.

Snakes don't have vocal cords.

If you’re wondering what sound a snake makes, you might be surprised to learn that most snakes are actually silent creatures. They don’t have vocal cords like mammals, so they don’t produce traditional sounds like barks or meows. Instead, snakes communicate through hissing, which is a loud, high-pitched sound made by forcing air through their trachea. This hissing sound is typically a warning signal, meant to intimidate predators or intruders.

What Sound Does Snake Make? • Support Wild

If you’re wondering what sound a snake makes, you might be surprised to learn that most snakes are actually silent creatures. They don’t have vocal ... Read More

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Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2Co 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Hugs

 

[Zao is life]

Was Eve sinful when she was tempted? Until they ate of the fruit there was no sin.

I see what you mean about Adam and Eve being tempted - and therefore being capable of being tempted - before they sinned, and the Word does say that Jesus was in all ways tempted just as we are, yet was without sin, so you are correct:

-- For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin. -- Hebrews 4:15

I'll come back to the rest of what you say in your above post in a separate post, because it contains a lot of very deep thought - but so does this part, and I believe that this part is very, very important also, so it's still very interesting to me (I'm finding my discussion with you about these things very fruitful, because it comes back to what I was saying about the fact that because Jesus is God, His eternal-life-producing righteousness could be earned by Him through His obedience to the good and abstaining from the evil):-

He fulfilled the law in this way too, as well as by dying for our sins (love).

Adam is "creature only" and could do neither. God who alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16; 2 Timothy 1:10; 1 Timothy 1:17) and He alone has (eternal) life in Himself (John 5:26).

Adam's attempt at perfect obedience to the good and abstinence from the evil, was a failure, and by the law is the knowledge of good and evil. This is why the law is our tutor to bring us to Christ that we may be justified through faith in Christ.

But Christ Jesus is both God AND man. He was not created but is begotten of God, and so though He was tempted, He could do what we cannot do - abstain from the evil and remain righteous, and live through His righteousness:

-- For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them. -- Galatians 3:10-12.

It's obvious that Jesus is the only man who is excepted from the above statement, because He lived by the fact that He always remained righteous, though He was in all points tempted as we are - He continued to only obey the good, and abstain from the evil - so He lives eternally by His own righteousness (whereas we cannot).

Yet Jesus was made a curse for us, dying for our sins, and rose again for our justification, and we are clothed with His righteousness through our faith in Him, who is the Word of God become flesh.

Paul spoke about this as "the grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternal times, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has made death of no effect, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel." -- 2 Timothy 1:9-10
​

So just how closely linked the knowledge of good and evil and the law are, as well just how closely these are linked to Adam's (mankind's) eternal life and resurrection from the dead through Christ's (the last Adam's) eternal-life producing righteousness,

and just how inextricably this is also linked linked to faith in the Word of God which says to the creature ('Adam') "Dying you will die if you partake of the knowledge of good and evil",

is all mind-blowing to me.

"You will not surely die, but you will be like God", is the lie which implies that like God, Adam's (the creature's) immortality | eternal life is in himself, because it implies that Adam could earn his eternal-life-producing righteousness through obedience to the good and abstinence from the evil when he was tempted.

Yet Adam failed because he failed to abide in the Word of God, believing that he could produce that fruit himself.

Thousands of years later, Jesus would say,

-- Now all of you are clean through the word (o. logos) which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can all of you, except all of you abide in me. I am the vine, all of you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me all of you can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
-- John 15:3-6.

I've only recently discovered this link, thanks to what you said in your post in the other thread about good and evil and the law, and thanks also now a second time round, when your response corrected me when I said that "because Jesus is God I don't understand how He could be tempted just as we are, because God cannot sin".​

 

[Zao is life]

There still some things we're caught up in with the imagery. I don't believe snakes talk

Me neither. The dragon and the serpent are symbols for Satan.

If you go to the end of Revelation the only ones on the outside of the kingdom is liars, adulterers, murderers etc.
These are on the outside. This serpent whoever or whatever we imagine it to be somehow snuck into the garden to entice Eve to coerce her husband to turn against God.

He was only allowed in by God. He did not sneak in. Not saying God invited him in. Just saying that God allowed it to happen, knowing that Satan wanted to enter into the Garden of Eden. So Satan did not 'sneak in'.

- and God only allowed it after a certain amount of years of the sabbath-rest of God had passed (the sabbath which began after Adam and Eve were created). It could have come at the close of a thousand years (just guessing).

If Jesus had turned those stones into bread he would have been listening to that same snake in the garden that told Eve to eat the fruit.

I agree.

Difference is. Jesus said NO.

Agreed.

Job says something I find interesting...

Job 31:24
If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, Thou art my confidence;
Job 31:25
If I rejoiced because my wealth was great, and because mine hand had gotten much;
Job 31:26
If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness;
Job 31:27
And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
Job 31:28
This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.

Job 31:33
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

During Jesus's life he came across a lot of demons that had to be "cast out" .
These demons control the mind.

Yes - but the demons are separate from the mind. Otherwise anyone who had demons cast out of them would have been cast out of themselves. So they would have died on the spot.

The man among the tombs...

Luk 8:27
And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
Luk 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luk 8:30
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

fastforward:

Luk 8:35
Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

as opposed to what mind? If he was now in his right mind, what mind was he in before?

I believe the serpent in the garden is Adam's Ego.
But they needed a scapegoat.

Yes but again - the demons are separate from the mind. Otherwise the man would have been cast out of himself. So he would have died on the spot. The demons used his mind. Satan used Adam's ego to tempt Adam - but Adam's ego and Satan are not the same thing:

-- Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one. But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death. -- James 1:13-15.

Satan uses stuff like ego and lust as the tool by which he tempts Adam, and sometimes someone may even use his own lust himself, willingly. But lust is not a demon - it's our own thoughts.

We can only rebuke Satan, and not allow certain thoughts, but we can only do this through faith in Christ and His life-giving Spirit, and we must be abiding in the Vine already, so that He is always there to help us to escape when our ego, our sinful thoughts and desires, or even any sinful motives we might have, are used as a tool by Satan to cause us to slip up.

Personally, I think Satan concentrates his efforts on those whose activities in the Kingdom of God are a threat to him - because he is not omnipresent.

But I do not believe Adam's ego is the "Satan" being spoken about in Genesis.

If it were so that our minds are the demons mentioned in scripture, then we would all be demons, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

@Ziggy The ego and thoughts of any individual are part of the psychḗ.

In the Greek manuscripts, the word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction which is consistent throughout the New Testament between the body and the soul. If this was Satan or demons, then one part of the psychḗ (soul) is cast out - but I don't see how only one part of the psychḗ of an individual can be cast out, and each person only has one psychḗ.

So this is what our responsibility is:
​

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Hugs​

 

[Ziggy]

I see what you mean about Adam and Eve being tempted - and therefore being capable of being tempted - before they sinned, and the Word does say that Jesus was in all ways tempted just as we are, yet was without sin, so you are correct:

-- For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted just as we are, yet without sin. -- Hebrews 4:15

I'll come back to the rest of what you say in your above post in a separate post, because it contains a lot of very deep thought - but so does this part, and I believe that this part is very, very important also, so it's still very interesting to me (I'm finding my discussion with you about these things very fruitful, because it comes back to what I was saying about the fact that because Jesus is God, His eternal-life-producing righteousness could be earned by Him through His obedience to the good and abstaining from the evil):-

He fulfilled the law in this way too, as well as by dying for our sins (love).

Adam is "creature only" and could do neither. God who alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16; 2 Timothy 1:10; 1 Timothy 1:17) and He alone has (eternal) life in Himself (John 5:26).

Adam's attempt at perfect obedience to the good and abstinence from the evil, was a failure, and by the law is the knowledge of good and evil. This is why the law is our tutor to bring us to Christ that we may be justified through faith in Christ.

But Christ Jesus is both God AND man. He was not created but is begotten of God, and so though He was tempted, He could do what we cannot do - abstain from the evil and remain righteous, and live through His righteousness:

-- For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them. -- Galatians 3:10-12.

It's obvious that Jesus is the only man who is excepted from the above statement, because He lived by the fact that He always remained righteous, though He was in all points tempted as we are - He continued to only obey the good, and abstain from the evil - so He lives eternally by His own righteousness (whereas we cannot).

Yet Jesus was made a curse for us, dying for our sins, and rose again for our justification, and we are clothed with His righteousness through our faith in Him, who is the Word of God become flesh.

Paul spoke about this as "the grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternal times, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has made death of no effect, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel." -- 2 Timothy 1:9-10
​

So just how closely linked the knowledge of good and evil and the law are, as well just how closely these are linked to Adam's (mankind's) eternal life and resurrection from the dead through Christ's (the last Adam's) eternal-life producing righteousness,

and just how inextricably this is also linked linked to faith in the Word of God which says to the creature ('Adam') "Dying you will die if you partake of the knowledge of good and evil",

is all mind-blowing to me.

"You will not surely die, but you will be like God", is the lie which implies that like God, Adam's (the creature's) immortality | eternal life is in himself, because it implies that Adam could earn his eternal-life-producing righteousness through obedience to the good and abstinence from the evil when he was tempted.

Yet Adam failed because he failed to abide in the Word of God, believing that he could produce that fruit himself.

Thousands of years later, Jesus would say,

-- Now all of you are clean through the word (o. logos) which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can all of you, except all of you abide in me. I am the vine, all of you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me all of you can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
-- John 15:3-6.

I've only recently discovered this link, thanks to what you said in your post in the other thread about good and evil and the law, and thanks also now a second time round, when your response corrected me when I said that "because Jesus is God I don't understand how He could be tempted just as we are, because God cannot sin".​

The bible says, a man born to a woman is born in sin. Jesus touched lepers and dead people.
All these outward things according to the law are sinful.
The difference is, Jesus did these things by faith and not according to the law.
So he was spiritually sinless in everything he did and yet as being born under the law he took all those lawful sins upon himself in the flesh.
Jesus fulfilled the law by faith. He kept all the feasts, he abided by the food laws, the levitical laws. He kept them all.
But when it came to the laws of humanity, the loving thy neighbor, the healings and the poor,
even though the laws say do, there are also places where the law says don't.
And man through the years had created their own laws and traditions that opposed what was in the laws and made those laws law.

That's what I found fascinating when Jesus would question the Pharisees and say The law says this, but I say....
He was forcing them to think about the humanity of the law and not just what they believed the law said.
Should a man who has been lame his whole life not be healed on the sabbath day?
The bible said no work should be done, and they believe helping others was work according to the law.
But this work comes from the heart and not the law. Jesus was trying to show them the difference but they couldn't hear it.

So Yes Jesus took our sins (according to the law).. being born of a woman, touching lepers and dead peaple.. etc...
and put them upon himself and the punishment for sin is death.
So death was the plan from the beginning. It was the only way to fulfill the law while at the same time abolishing it in his flesh.

But because Jesus did these things by FAITH and not by works of the law, death couldn't keep him.
And the spirit of life which he had within himself never died. The body died. But his spirit never died.
And he rose up from the dead, those laws which kept sinners down in hell, and overcame them and he lives forever and ever.
Because he is life and death couldn't win that war.

I may not explain myself or what I think very well, but I think you see where I'm coming from.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Me neither. The dragon and the serpent are symbols for Satan.

He was only allowed in by God. He did not sneak in. Not saying God invited him in. Just saying that God allowed it to happen, knowing that Satan wanted to enter into the Garden of Eden. So Satan did not 'sneak in'.

- and God only allowed it after a certain amount of years of the sabbath-rest of God had passed (the sabbath which began after Adam and Eve were created). It could have come at the close of a thousand years (just guessing).

I agree.

Agreed.

Yes - but the demons are separate from the mind. Otherwise anyone who had demons cast out of them would have been cast out of themselves. So they would have died on the spot.

Yes but again - the demons are separate from the mind. Otherwise the man would have been cast out of himself. So he would have died on the spot. The demons used his mind. Satan used Adam's ego to tempt Adam - but Adam's ego and Satan are not the same thing:

-- Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one. But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death. -- James 1:13-15.

Satan uses stuff like ego and lust as the tool by which he tempts Adam, and sometimes someone may even use his own lust himself, willingly. But lust is not a demon - it's our own thoughts.

We can only rebuke Satan, and not allow certain thoughts, but we can only do this through faith in Christ and His life-giving Spirit, and we must be abiding in the Vine already, so that He is always there to help us to escape when our ego, our sinful thoughts and desires, or even any sinful motives we might have, are used as a tool by Satan to cause us to slip up.

Personally, I think Satan concentrates his efforts on those whose activities in the Kingdom of God are a threat to him - because he is not omnipresent.

But I do not believe Adam's ego is the "Satan" being spoken about in Genesis.

If it were so that our minds are the demons mentioned in scripture, then we would all be demons, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

@Ziggy The ego and thoughts of any individual are part of the psychḗ.

In the Greek manuscripts, the word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction which is consistent throughout the New Testament between the body and the soul. If this was Satan or demons, then one part of the psychḗ (soul) is cast out - but I don't see how only one part of the psychḗ of an individual can be cast out, and each person only has one psychḗ.

So this is what our responsibility is:
​

I have a hard time with Satan as an individual personage.
I think Satan is a metaphor for death and anything that opposes God's love.
Envy, greed, hate, murder, lying, stealing....

These didn't exist in the garden until Eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of evil.
She had to partake of the fruit in order to see what evil is.

Everytime I go down this route I end up with the serpent on the pole and Jesus being lifted up like the serpent.
And everytime I approach this I see things that I don't quite fully understand.
And rather than cause confusion to others, I just pass it by.

The sinful flesh was crucified, the spirit of faith remained alive.

2Co 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

subtility and simplicity...

Mat 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Adam needed to be drawn to the tree of life to inherit eternal life.
But the only way he could get there was to go through death.

God blocked the way to the tree of life because he had gained the knowledge of good and evil.
But the knowledge of the law can not lead one to righteousness only the faith of the Lord can.

So...How does one gain faith?

You have to believe in something that is not seen...
Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

God had given Adam and Eve paradise. Everything they needed was freely given to them.
Only one thing they could not have out of everything.

Mat 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

The only way to rise is to fall.
the only way to overcome is to be tried.
Did Adam know?

1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

hmm

So because Eve believed the lie and Adam knew what he was doing... she was the one who committed the sin.

I always get twisted here. So I'll leave it again for now.
One of these days God will make it clear to me.

Hugs

 

[Zao is life]

The bible says, a man born to a woman is born in sin. Jesus touched lepers and dead people.
All these outward things according to the law are sinful.

They were only sinful according to the interpretation of the law contained in human tradition. But the law was always only the shadow of the fruit of the Spirit, so Jesus did not sin by touching a leper (which is basically what you're saying below:

The difference is, Jesus id these things by faith and not according to the law.
So he was spiritually sinless in everything he did and yet as being born under the law he took all those lawful sins upon himself in the flesh.
Jesus fulfilled the law by faith. He kept all the feasts, he abided by the food laws, the levitical laws. He kept them all.
But when it came to the laws of humanity, the loving thy neighbor, the healings and the poor,
even though the laws say do, there are also places where the law says don't.
And man through the years had created their own laws and traditions that opposed what was in the laws and made those laws law.

That's what I found fascinating when Jesus would question the Pharisees and say The law says this, but I say....
He was forcing them to think about the humanity of the law and not just what they believed the law said.
Should a man who has been lame his whole life not be healed on the sabbath day?
The bible said no work should be done, and they believe helping others was work according to the law.
But this work comes from the heart and not the law. Jesus was trying to show them the difference but they couldn't hear it.

So Yes Jesus took our sins (according to the law).. being born of a woman, touching lepers and dead peaple.. etc...
and put them upon himself and the punishment for sin is death.
So death was the plan from the beginning. It was the only way to fulfill the law while at the same time abolishing it in his flesh.

But because Jesus did these things by FAITH and not by works of the law, death couldn't keep him.
And the spirit of life which he had within himself never died. The body died. But his spirit never died.
And he rose up from the dead, those laws which kept sinners down in hell, and overcame them and he lives forever and ever.
Because he is life and death couldn't win that war.

I may not explain myself or what I think very well, but I think you see where I'm coming from.
Hugs

 

[Zao is life]

I have a hard time with Satan as an individual personage.
I think Satan is a metaphor for death and anything that opposes God's love.
Envy, greed, hate, murder, lying, stealing....

I don't because Jesus spoke of him as though he was one being. The father of lies.

These didn't exist in the garden until Eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of evil.
She had to partake of the fruit in order to see what evil is.

Satan lied before Eve knew what lies were. He had to lie before she discovered the difference between good and evil.

Everytime I go down this route I end up with the serpent on the pole and Jesus being lifted up like the serpent.
And everytime I approach this I see things that I don't quite fully understand.
And rather than cause confusion to others, I just pass it by.

Well I don't mind you not passing it by this time. Jesus was cursed. The curse lifted up became our salvation. The serpent on a pole is a symbol of Jesus becoming a curse for us.

The sinful flesh was crucified, the spirit of faith remained alive.

Jesus wasn't sinful, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

2Co 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

subtility and simplicity...

Mat 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Be aware of the subtly and wiles of the serpent - wise as serpents - but don't sin (harmless as doves).

Adam needed to be drawn to the tree of life to inherit eternal life.
But the only way he could get there was to go through death.

Only after he was prevented from eating of the tree of life. Not before he sinned.

God blocked the way to the tree of life because he had gained the knowledge of good and evil.
But the knowledge of the law can not lead one to righteousness only the faith of the Lord can.

It's to do with obedience to the good and refraining from the evil, which if it can (always) be accomplished without (ever) failing, produces the righteousness that produces eternal life. Only Jesus could do that. Think about the righteousness of never sinning, never transgressing.

So...How does one gain faith?

You ask God for it. Honestly. It's as simple as that. If you complicate it you will not believe that you can ask God for it. He will give it liberally and WITHOUT reproach.

You have to believe in something that is not seen...
Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

It's the Spirit of God witnessing to your spirit. You cannot see it, but the Spirit breathes that faith into you, testifying that all things that are written are true, including all things you heard about Jesus.

God had given Adam and Eve paradise. Everything they needed was freely given to them.
Only one thing they could not have out of everything.

It's because they could not produce their own eternal life, which is the product of righteousness, which is produced through obedience to the good (always) and refraining from the evil (always) - and this required knowledge of the good and of the evil.

Our eternal life is in Christ, who existed before all creation, in whom was life, who alone is immortal, and who alone has life in Himself. It's only imparted to us through faith in Him.

Mat 13:45
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

You should want what you have in Christ more than anything else.

The only way to rise is to fall.

Only Christ was able to rise after He took our fall upon Himself. God did not intend for Adam to fall. If it were not for Jesus, we would never have risen from the fall of Adam, because that would have been impossible for us.

the only way to overcome is to be tried.
Did Adam know?

Tested to see what you will do. No, Adam and Eve were not aware that God was allowing Satan to test them.

1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

hmm

So because Eve believed the lie and Adam knew what he was doing... she was the one who committed the sin.

I always get twisted here. So I'll leave it again for now.
One of these days God will make it clear to me.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression. (Netfree version)

Adam was not deceived. He knew what God had said. Eve was deceived, so she "fell into" the transgression. Adam did not "fall into" the transgression.

They both committed the sin, but Eve had "a better excuse" than Adam.

Actually Eve had learned the commandment and about the commandment from Adam, so she should have first gone and asked Adam before going ahead and doing it. Like, she should have first told him what she had been told, instead of just believing that either (a) Adam wasn't bright enough to have understood correctly; or (b) that Adam had lied to her or withheld something from her, or (c) even worse, that God and Adam had conspired to lie to her.​

They were both guilty.

 

[Wick Stick]

Was Satan a cherub?

I think so. I think the evidence is pretty good.

I think so, too.

Most people equate the snake in Genesis 3 with satan, but I don't think that's right. I think he's one of the cherubim placed at the east of the Garden of Eden to guard against re-entry.

 

[Ziggy]

Well I don't mind you not passing it by this time. Jesus was cursed. The curse lifted up became our salvation. The serpent on a pole is a symbol of Jesus becoming a curse for us.

I tried. I wrote a long story and then deleted it.
Suffice it to say, I think God gave Satan a second chance, but in order to be forgiven he had to make restitution for all the sin in the world he had caused.
The day Jesus died on the cross is the day Satan ceased to exist.

What we have today is the remnant of the devil's seed, his offspring, his dna passing through our genes.
And this is why we must be born again. To be clean, made white as snow from the inside of the cup.
We can't do it. Only the one who made it dirty can clean it.
Restitution.

I'm saying.. before Jesus was Jesus he was the anointed Cherub. Fell from grace, caused hell on earth, saw the damage he had done, asked forgiveness.
Only way that could happen was to be born again and go through hell which he created.
And to make a door for all his offspring to find salvation from the curse he had put upon all mankind, by taking that curse back upon himself, and making himself a ransom for all mankind.

In a nutshell...

Ok I'm ready for the arrows no doubt they will come they always do.
But all I'm saying is this my thoughts only, I have not succumbed to this as my belief. Just thoughts.
Why are we here? How did we get here? And where are we going?

Just thoughts..
Hugs

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jer 31:18
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Heb 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

just thinking...

 

[Zao is life]

I tried. I wrote a long story and then deleted it.
Suffice it to say, I think God gave Satan a second chance, but in order to be forgiven he had to make restitution for all the sin in the world he had caused.
The day Jesus died on the cross is the day Satan ceased to exist.

What we have today is the remnant of the devil's seed, his offspring, his dna passing through our genes.
And this is why we must be born again. To be clean, made white as snow from the inside of the cup.
We can't do it. Only the one who made it dirty can clean it.
Restitution.

I'm saying.. before Jesus was Jesus he was the anointed Cherub. Fell from grace, caused hell on earth, saw the damage he had done, asked forgiveness.
Only way that could happen was to be born again and go through hell which he created.
And to make a door for all his offspring to find salvation from the curse he had put upon all mankind, by taking that curse back upon himself, and making himself a ransom for all mankind.

In a nutshell...

Ok I'm ready for the arrows no doubt they will come they always do.
But all I'm saying is this my thoughts only, I have not succumbed to this as my belief. Just thoughts.
Why are we here? How did we get here? And where are we going?

Just thoughts..
Hugs

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jer 31:18
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Heb 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

just thinking...

OK you did lose me. But fiery darts I reserve for teachers. Self-appointed teachers, like myself. I'm not a teacher but I make a lot of statements like a teacher would, so I'm self-appointed. But you don't come across as trying to teach or as being a self-appointed teacher. So no fiery darts for you today, sorry.

I'm not going to say why I disagree with you about everything you said about Jesus in your above post. There's a time for everything, said Solomon. I agree with him, and now's not the time.​

 

[Ziggy]

OK you did lose me. But fiery darts I reserve for teachers. Self-appointed teachers, like myself. I'm not a teacher but I make a lot of statements like a teacher would, so I'm self-appointed. But you don't come across as trying to teach or as being a self-appointed teacher. So no fiery darts for you today, sorry.

I'm not going to say why I disagree with you about everything you said about Jesus in your above post. There's a time for everything, said Solomon. I agree with him, and now's not the time.​

I disagree with me too sometimes.
But this snake thing... and the "anointed" which means Christ, christened... one.
Ye must be born again....

But I'll leave it there, I have to make dinner.
Thankyou for being patient with me.

Hugs