Could Christianity have been invented like this?

[Carpenter]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

*
(removed. Please read forum rules re: new members and links in posts)

 

[St. SteVen]

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

This is a great topic. Thanks for joining us from Norway.
My best friend is an agnostic of Norwegian decent. We live in Minnesota.
Home to many, many Scandinavian peoples.

I have several comments to address your post. I think you make some valid points.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

This position assumes that either all Jews were Christ-followers, or that Judaism was accepting of Christ.
Neither of these ideas is true. Let me know if you want me to post biblical support for any of my comments that lack it.
But, I will avoid deluging you with scripture to make my general points.

The Apostle Paul (Saul of Tarsus) was on the road to Damascus to arrest Jewish Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem to face trial.
He had papers from the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem which gave him authority to do this. So Judaism was NOT supportive of Christ.

Now you may say, wait... I meant Jewish believers did this to appease the gentiles.
I don't think that is what you are saying, but let's cover that angle.

In the story of Cornelius we see the opening of the door for gentiles to join the Jewish followers of Jesus.
God gave the Apostle Peter a vision in Acts chapter ten about the gentiles being declared "clean".
The story tells us that God had already spoken to Cornelius, who was told to send for Peter to come visit them.
The messengers showed up at the door just as Peter was coming out of his vision from God.

Peter then went with them to the house of Cornelius. When Peter arrived, he spoke to the group gathered there.
Before Peter even finished preaching, the Holy Spirit was poured out on the gentiles. Here was Peter's reaction.

Acts 10:47-48 NIV
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.
They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

/

 

[Rockerduck]

Consider prophesy (things foretold to happen in the future) that are coming true right now. Man cannot make that up.

 

[Matthias]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

*

Was Paul a liar?

Welcome to the forum.

If you’re truly interested in becoming a Christian then you must listen to Jesus preaching the gospel and then make a decision on whether to believe him or not.

 

[St. SteVen]

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Judaism to this day rejects the New Testament accounts.
And in New Testament times they considered Jesus followers to be a sect. One of many.

The point of Christianity was not to introduce a new religion, but a new relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
I pray that God will reveal himself to you to verify this desire he has for a personal relationship with you.

This will come to you in a way that I could never have caused. The workings of a real and loving God.

If you like we could put God to the test. Identity a problem in your life that only God could help you with.
What would be a measurable indicator to prove that God was helping you?

For instance, when we pray for the sick or injured, we survey the need to get a benchmark to work from.
As an example, let's say the person has injured their arm and shoulder. The benchmark is that they can only
lift their arm up to shoulder height, no farther. Pain level of 8/10. So we begin to pray and then check the benchmark.

Now we discover that pain has subsided a bit (6/10) and they are able to lift their arm as high as their ear, but not over their head.
This increases our faith and we continue to pray. Then we check again. Pain at 4/10, and now they can lift their arm up to head height.
Just five minutes earlier they had pain at 8/10 and couldn't get their arm above their shoulder. So we continue to pray.

Suddenly they announce a complete loss of pain (0/10) and complete movement of the arm above their head.
The benchmark gave us something to measure healing progress. Less than ten minutes of prayer, and God delivered.

Do you have a benchmark that we could use to see a miracle in your life? It needs to be measurable.
It could be any need really. An obstacle in your path? A relationship that needs to be healed.
An addiction that needs to be broken. A need for employment, or a financial miracle.

/

 

[BlessedPeace]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

*

Was Paul a liar?

Paul was a Pharisee. Even when defending his spread of his gospel ,as he referred to it many times, and before the Sanhedrin, he identified as a Pharisee.

The Babylonian Talmud referred to Jesus as,if I remember right, Yeshu bin Pantera. His mother was Myriam and his father was a Roman soldier named Pantera.
In that account they said Yeshu and his fellows were accused of teaching against the state. And were hanged on the eve of Passover.

What is curious in our gospel is,after his resurrection Jesus journeyed openly in the same places where he formerly preached.

The Sanhedrin had spies in their community. How would they not get the news the man they'd crucified days before was walking around for 40 days?

I don't think the Jews would have cared about pacifying the Gentiles by manufacturing a false Messiah story.

Saul was sent to find and execute Apostate Jews who followed Jesus. Why would the Jews create a faith that led to their own people turning Apostate to follow?

 

[Bob]

Judaism to this day rejects the New Testament accounts.
And in New Testament times they considered Jesus followers to be a sect. One of many.

The point of Christianity was not to introduce a new religion, but a new relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
I pray that God will reveal himself to you to verify this desire he has for a personal relationship with you.

This will come to you in a way that I could never have caused. The workings of a real and loving God.

If you like we could put God to the test. Identity a problem in your life that only God could help you with.
What would be a measurable indicator to prove that God was helping you?

For instance, when we pray for the sick or injured, we survey the need to get a benchmark to work from.
As an example, let's say the person has injured their arm and shoulder. The benchmark is that they can only
lift their arm up to shoulder height, no farther. Pain level of 8/10. So we begin to pray and then check the benchmark.

Now we discover that pain has subsided a bit (6/10) and they are able to lift their arm as high as their ear, but not over their head.
This increases our faith and we continue to pray. Then we check again. Pain at 4/10, and now they can lift their arm up to head height.
Just five minutes earlier they had pain at 8/10 and couldn't get their arm above their shoulder. So we continue to pray.

Suddenly they announce a complete loss of pain (0/10) and complete movement of the arm above their head.
The benchmark gave us something to measure healing progress. Less than ten minutes of prayer, and God delivered.

Do you have a benchmark that we could use to see a miracle in your life? It needs to be measurable.
It could be any need really. An obstacle in your path? A relationship that needs to be healed.
An addiction that needs to be broken. A need for employment, or a financial miracle.

/

You have written a wonderful reply. I especially resonate with “The point of Christianity was not to introduce a new religion . . . .”

Your recommendation for a test is on the right track, but I have a slightly different perspective. God works through people to fulfill His purposes. We are to love Him and to love our neighbors. If He is going to answer a prayer, it should be about either helping others or strengthening our faith.

Thus, we might could pray for God for inspiration in assisting someone or a group in need. If the outcome will fulfill God’s purposes, the prayer might be answered in either of the following ways: He will engender specific connections of knowledge we all ready have (sometimes referred to as the “aha” phenomenon); or we will sudden be inspired by something we just “happen” to read, or by someone we just ”happen” to talk to (an “angel”).

An example (real!) could be this: “God, I am a project leader for a charity mission, and I am failing. What am I doing wrong? Please help me move our group forward. Etc.”

What do you think?

Peace and blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

You have written a wonderful reply. I especially resonate with “The point of Christianity was not to introduce a new religion . . . .”

Your recommendation for a test is on the right track, but I have a slightly different perspective. God works through people to fulfill His purposes. We are to love Him and to love our neighbors. If He is going to answer a prayer, it should be about either helping others or strengthening our faith.

Thus, we might could pray for God for inspiration in assisting someone or a group in need. If the outcome will fulfill God’s purposes, the prayer might be answered in either of the following ways: He will engender specific connections of knowledge we all ready have (sometimes referred to as the “aha” phenomenon); or we will sudden be inspired by something we just “happen” to read, or by someone we just ”happen” to talk to (an “angel”).

An example (real!) could be this: “God, I am a project leader for a charity mission, and I am failing. What am I doing wrong? Please help me move our group forward. Etc.”

What do you think?

Peace and blessings.

Welcome to the forum Bob. So nice to meet you.
I like what you are saying here.

In this case we are answering an agnostic inquiry. I like what the Apostle says
in the scripture below about our faith not resting "on human wisdom, but on God’s power."
This requires "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power," A test. Will God fail this inquirer?

Obviously, we cannot produce miracles by our own power.
The topic starter was looking for an intellectual argument. I think something more is needed here.
Once we exhaust our back and forth arguments, where are we left?
Opinion versus opinion at the end of the day. Who is right?

1 Corinthians 2:3-5 NIV
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

/

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Jews crucified Christ

They crucified many of his followers (called Christians)

The appealed to the gentiles to do the same

so not sure how they would have invented this to appease the gentiles.. It makes no sense

 

[Bob]

Welcome to the forum Bob. So nice to meet you.
I like what you are saying here.

In this case we are answering an agnostic inquiry. I like what the Apostle says
in the scripture below about our faith not resting "on human wisdom, but on God’s power."
This requires "a demonstration of the Spirit’s power," A test. Will God fail this inquirer?

Obviously, we cannot produce miracles by our own power.
The topic starter was looking for an intellectual argument. I think something more is needed here.
Once we exhaust our back and forth arguments, where are we left?
Opinion versus opinion at the end of the day. Who is right?

1 Corinthians 2:3-5 NIV
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

/

Thank you for your speedy reply. I agree completely!

In conclusion, here are two scripture passages (of many) that are examples of how God responds to prayers for help.
First, Esther 5:15,16 — God inspires Esther on how Haman can be defeated.
Second, Nehemiah 1 and 2—God sends an “angel” in answer to Nehemiah’s prayer.

What about prayers for those being persecuted, suffering from ill health, mourning the loss of loved ones . . . .? Perhaps, at a minimum, for God to comfort, strengthen, & sustain the afflicted. Example: Mother Teresa knelt by the side of a paralyzed man, and prayed & prayed. When she arose and left, his physical condition was unchanged, but one could see how his spirits had been lifted, by God and the supplications of a holy lady.

What about persecutors, criminals, hypocrites, and idol worshipers? My prayers are that, with help of the Holy Spirit, I might persuade them to turn to God. (But my guess is that I am not the one who will do so!)

I think you are correct concerning the agnostic. Perhaps we need to know why he is asking. Is he lost spiritually? Etc.

“Seek first to understand before being understood,“ and “be open to outcome, and not attached to an outcome.”

Peace and blessings.

 

[Windmillcharge]

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Why believe in a god that died and didn't just die but was crucified as a criminal!

Why believe in a god that was a manual worker, a low cast carpenter, of no status from a backward country in the backend of nowhere!

Why believe in a god that expected that o e should change one's behaviour, be honest, faithful to one's spouse etc etc etc

The amazing thing is that inspire of the above problems people did become Christian, so much so that they changed the roman empire.

May I suggest that you look at what professional investigators have discovered.
Lee Strobel once an investigative journalist looked into Christianity to disprove it.
He couldn't, A Case for Christ is his book about it, recording the interviews with leading experts to get the information to show hristianity was fake.

Or
James Warner Wallace a cold ase detective who used his detective skills.s to investigate the cold case that is Christianity.
He like many others who have the honesty and courage to follow where the evidence leads became Christian.

 

[Carpenter]

Thanks for all the answers so far. You all raise good points.

I especially like Windmillcharge's point about Jesus humility; pagans liked grandeur, strength and epicness, which is part of the reason why Celsus mocked Christians for not having temples and such. So this is an argument against the idea that Jesus, being a carpenter and being crucified, etc, being invented.

One could also imagine how Roman persecution would play into this; if it was invented, how many people would have to be in on the conspiracy by the time the persecutions happened? Would Roman spies find out? Threaten them? Etc

It's just interesting to think about this to erase another naturalistic explanation. You can admit that, on its face, there could seem to be some merit to this idea; creating an ideology to pacify a militarily superior enemy.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think you are correct concerning the agnostic. Perhaps we need to know why he is asking. Is he lost spiritually? Etc.

“Seek first to understand before being understood,“ and “be open to outcome, and not attached to an outcome.”

Very good. I agree.
Did you read the OP. That would be a good start.

/

 

[ScottA]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

*

Was Paul a liar?

In spite of the immense amount of detail, it's really much simpler than that:

The world is not what it appears to be. Among those who do not know or believe there is a God, certainly it is easy to imagine that there are alternative answers and explanations possible--that is what the world is. It is a place where everyone has the opportunity to imagine what is in their mind to imagine is true...and God makes it manifest. If one chooses to imagine a rabbit hole and goes down it, that is what is manifest (Go ask Alice). And if one looks at their own history and imagines the history of the world must surely be millions of times longer, that too is made manifest. But if one hears from God according to what He has said and is written, and believes those much shorter terms and lesser age of the universe, that too is made manifest--and why not...we are taking about God! If God is God, the creator of all things, can He not create the multitudes according to their own makeup? Of course He can!

But that does not prove anything of God, it only explains it.

That's correct, and in fact that is the point--that each person given the choice, is given unto their own. Each then is a gift, showing God to be good, and only those who choose what is not good to be less and thereby excluded from the greater plan of life after this.

So, one can face the world and observe whatever suits them. Wherein those who see the unseen and believe that there is more to life than can be explained organically...as it is written, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away." showing the difference of how what one is made up of will determine whether life is short and purely organic, or forever.

Can one change their stripes? No, but God can! Just believe and ask. God is good.

 

[Luminae]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

*
[link removed]

I think it's entirely possible

 

[St. SteVen]

I think it's entirely possible

See posts #3 and #6. Thanks.

/

 

[JohnDB]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

[removed link]

Jews were the worst storytellers. Let's start there. Most of their stories in the Talmud are flat and seemingly without any point to them UNLESS you are raised Jewish. Greeks were much much better with stories and tales. So were Egyptians. Jews sucked at it for the masses.

Military might of Rome?
The military might of Rome was dependent upon the Emperor...unless he had a sufficient army the Emperor didn't get to be Emperor...and dying by poisoning when Emperor was extremely common. So the command structure changed ALOT.

Roman culture was extremely self serving. "Your best life now" was the focus...also using cunning to "achieve a one up" over your peers. The Greek/Roman gods were more about being a participating/voyeur than anything else. Sex and violence has been being sold by everyone from practically the beginning of time. Adding a religious component to it was simple marketing. Nothing really extravagant or extraordinary about adding religion to sex and violence sales.

Christianity is the exact opposite of all the other religions. It focuses on purity, kindness, and self sacrifice. Not exactly what most people want.
All of the founders of Christianity died a martyrs death....and in their writings they ALL expressed the knowledge that they knew what sort of untimely death they were going to get. In the meantime they ALL went hungry, cold, hot, and got beaten regularly as punishment for preaching purity, kindness, and self-sacrifice.
And that is key.
Because they had met the One True Living God.

None of their teachings were political, racial, power grabbing, or of financial benefit. In fact they all went broke teaching the messages of the "Good News".
Now where today we see people using Christianity to enrich themselves with power and money....that's not what Christianity is about. Lots of charlatans exist and have always existed wanting to do that even inside of Christianity.

And yes, the high priest dying every year....only happened when something was wrong...it's a dirty little secret that the Jews don't like to discuss. Kinda like pedophile priests in the Catholic Church.

So....
We have anthropology, geography, history, and archeology all corroborating the Bible and Christianity. Then there's the intricacy in the Bible itself that tells extremely incredible stories that if properly researched are fantastic and uniform. (They do not contradict) 40 authors over 1500 years that agree. Even today a feat that cannot be copied. We can't get two people on this forum to agree on much but 40 people over 1500 years in four different languages? We tend to call that a CLUE and a MIRACLE.

All this fuss over the teaching of purity, humility, kindness, and self-sacrifice?

Yeah....something is wrong somewhere and it isn't with Christianity.

 

[Matthias]

Greetings

I am currently non-religious, but in the process of wondering whether Christianity could actually be true. It is not easy to come up with a naturalistic explanation for its origin.

Although, there might be one? If anyone can debunk this one, I might become a Christian.

When it comes to conspiracies, people say that this is something people do for money, power or sex. Aren't they evading another possibility here? Ideology/religion?

People like Adam Green have a theory that Christianity was invented by Jews in order to pacify gentiles ("turn the other cheek", "love your enemy", etc).

Think about it... Rome was militarily superior, right? The warrior messiah didn't come, so the Jews could have been on desperate ground, and attempted one last trick?

Imagine that Jesus was one of many real messiah figures who was indeed executed. The date fulfilling Daniel's 70 week prophecy? Not that wild, if such figures were being executed all the time, and maybe the Sanhedrin also had a certain influence on the execution dates.

Empty tomb? It was owned by a Sanhedrin member, right? Not too hard to sneak the body out somehow, or bribe the guards, etc, if there even were guards there?

The first church? Started in Jerusalem itself. Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of in group loyalty, and were on desperate ground, so if someone came decades later to ask whether Jesus did in fact do these and these miracles, there could be many people willing to say yes?

We also know that Jews are good story tellers, which could explain undesigned coincidences, and all the geographical details they got right and so on, since they lived in the very area described in the gospels?

Audacity is also a virtue in Jewish culture, which they call "chutzpah". Could this explain claims such as the 500 people supposedly seeing Jesus resurrected? Maybe combined with the fact that they had some "actors" ready and willing to confirm this if someone went to check.

In Paul's letter, he often says that he is not lying.* Did the recipients suspect that he was? Could he have been?

Could Peter, and possibly the other alleged apostles, as well as Paul, be in on the conspiracy? Deep religious motivation could explain willingness to be martyred. Another possibility: they didn't know they would be killed, but they were killed by other conspirators to eliminate loose ends? Or their deaths could have been faked, and they went into exile?

Miracles in Acts? Maybe some were magic tricks, some were invented later, maybe they went after gullible people first, etc.

In the Talmud, there seems to be corroboration for Jesus' divinity, with the stories about weird things in the temple, and the lot ending up in the priest's right hand for 40 years in a row before the destruction of the temple, etc. This could have been planted, to make the gentiles notice, and believe.. And for some reason, this one just didn't stick. People don't bring it up too often.

The criticism towards Pharisees in the gospels? Could be deliberate, to throw suspicion off of themselves, etc.

Thoughts? Can this be debunked?

[removed link]

You’ve received a number of good responses. How serious are you about becoming a Christian?

 

[bluedragon]

The Jews crucified Christ

They crucified many of his followers (called Christians)

The appealed to the gentiles to do the same

so not sure how they would have invented this to appease the gentiles.. It makes no sense

The Jews did not crucify anyone. That was a Roman penalty.

A Guard was assigned to control the tomb. A Roman Guard consisted of 20-26 men. Highly skilled trained killers. No one persuaded Guards who hated Jews….especially when the penalty for falling asleep on duty involved a horrific death penalty for the guard. Beaten to the point of being unconscious, then tossed onto the pile of your burning clothes, while still alive, is not a desired way to go. The guards stood a four man, four hour watch. You can rotate four men for a long time.

We can write a book concerning the innocence crafted in the opening OP