Daniel 12: 11

[DaDad]

Revelation 12 and Daniel 12


At the middle of the 7 year tribulation Michael and the good angels cast the devil and the bad angels to the earth. Then Michael comes down to earth and stands for Israel on earth till the end of the great tribulation.

...

Hi Eric,

I would most strongly urge you to evaluate Daniel 9 (from where the "church" ascribes a "seven-year-tribulation") in context with the literal text.

For example, in his book "Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation", Walvoord cites Young, who in turn cites Keit and Kliefoth, in that the word shibyim is the unusual masculine gender (the inconcise text), and ONLY found in Daniel 9.

"...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

"...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

To best consider this consequence, please consider American slang in which someone calls a car "cool", and the english novice thinks they need a hat, coat, and gloves, to go for a ride.

So in Daniel 9, the ONLY thing we can readily perceive is what Montgomery acknowledged:

"... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

"The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... ", P. 217

[SIZE=12pt]John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971[/SIZE]


I would suggest that one should start with the angelic instructions provided in 12:4 & 9, then proceed to the 9th Chapter literal text, and arrive to the CORRECT fulfillment for these passages.


DaDad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Hi Eric,

I would most strongly urge you to evaluate Daniel 9 (from where the "church" ascribes a "seven-year-tribulation") in context with the literal text.

For example, in his book "Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation", Walvoord cites Young, who in turn cites Keit and Kliefoth, in that the word shibyim is the unusual masculine gender (the inconcise text), and ONLY found in Daniel 9.

"...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

"...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

To best consider this consequence, please consider American slang in which someone calls a car "cool", and the english novice thinks they need a hat, coat, and gloves, to go for a ride.

So in Daniel 9, the ONLY thing we can readily perceive is what Montgomery acknowledged:

"... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

"The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... ", P. 217

[SIZE=12pt]John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971[/SIZE]


I would suggest that one should start with the angelic instructions provided in 12:4 & 9, then proceed to the 9th Chapter literal text, and arrive to the CORRECT fulfillment for these passages.


DaDad

DaDad,


Revelation 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Last half of the 7 year tribulation)

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days(First half of the tribulation), clothed in sackcloth.

 

[DaDad]

DaDad,


Revelation 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Last half of the 7 year tribulation)

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (First half of the tribulation), clothed in sackcloth.

Hi Eric,

I'm not sure why you would present commentary as though it were Scripture.


For example, take the Bible text from Daniel 9:25 NKJV:

25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street[c] shall be ...

... and compare it to the RSV:

25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be ...


Newton said it does "violence" to Scripture to sum the seven and the sixty-two:

[SIZE=12pt]"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]http://www.isaacnewton.ca/daniel_apocalypse/pt1ch10.html[/SIZE]


Per the above, I would propose that if Scripture is susceptible to a false rendering, then a clearly defined commentary is even more suspect. So once again I most strongly suggest that you go to the source of the false seven-year-tribulation teaching (Daniel 9) and find out what the literal text says.


DaDad

 

[veteran]

Hi Eric,

I would most strongly urge you to evaluate Daniel 9 (from where the "church" ascribes a "seven-year-tribulation") in context with the literal text.

For example, in his book "Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation", Walvoord cites Young, who in turn cites Keit and Kliefoth, in that the word shibyim is the unusual masculine gender (the inconcise text), and ONLY found in Daniel 9.

"...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

"...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

To best consider this consequence, please consider American slang in which someone calls a car "cool", and the english novice thinks they need a hat, coat, and gloves, to go for a ride.

So in Daniel 9, the ONLY thing we can readily perceive is what Montgomery acknowledged:

"... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

"The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... ", P. 217

[SIZE=12pt]John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971[/SIZE]


I would suggest that one should start with the angelic instructions provided in 12:4 & 9, then proceed to the 9th Chapter literal text, and arrive to the CORRECT fulfillment for these passages.


DaDad

Just another proof of what the angel said to Daniel that the wise would understand. But that above shows the 'seemingly' wise men do not, thus textual criticism on the matter will always fail for those to whom God has not given to understand those passages in the Book of Daniel.

 

[Poppin]

1,290 days - December 66 or 67 to the end of July 70 or 71 = 3 years 7 months (or 43 months).

Daniel's signs identified December 66 or 67 was the beginning of the end (and unto the end of the war desolations are determined Dan 9:24b)

The Roman armies under Cestuis withdrew in December 66 or 67. (The zealots warred around Massada until their total defeat)

1,290 days after the withdrawl of Cestuis, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans who returned in July 70 or 71

45 days after the temple is burnt, the rest of Jerusalem was completely destroyed - Happy were those who escaped it all, for they lived to see that they had been spared by the Lord, they had attained (waited) from afar and saw after 1,335 days that Jesus was true to His promise to them, the prophecy and promise he brought to mind having been foretold by Daniel.

Daniel 12
11"From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12"How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! (the absolute end).

 

[davewatchman]

<-------1260------->
<--------1290-------->
<---------1335--------->
<----------0000---------->




Hi DaDad

I would merely suggest that all assertions of a seven-year tribulation are based upon an incorrect association of Daniel 9, and that Rev. 13:5 provides the correct 42 month duration

I agree with your view on Daniel 9. I don't fully agree with 42 months being the complete duration of The Time of The End. Daniel 9 seems to be a major fork in the road for prophecy students.

Please note:

1. The Daniel 8, 2,300 days, has NOTHING to do with Christ's return, but is assigned to an altogether different event.

I wouldn't say it has NOTHING to do with Christ's return. He has to finish cleansing The Temple before he can begin The Tribulation. You are right that the 2300 days don't belong with the three prophetic time periods mentioned in Daniel 12.

One reason why 42 months or 1260 days can't be the complete duration of The Tribulation is the 1290 day period. Daniel is standing there with 2 angels and The Man clothed in linen. Then one of the angels asks: how long is all this stuff gonna take? The Man in linen answers: a time, times and half a time (1260 days)(42 months). If it had stopped there I would be on the DaDad team. The problem is that next The Man in linen states a new duration of 1290 days separating two additional events. 1290 won't fit inside of 1260. They don't belong end to end either. Now what are we gonna do? Wait, here comes The Man clothed in linen again with an even bigger prophetic time period.

12 "Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

I have another reason why I'm positive that "The Time of The End" is 1335 days in duration. I think I found what Isaac was looking for. You can find it too. 1335 is the key. I'll have to tell you some other day.





“Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the

time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly.
And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at
the 1,335 days.
13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at
the end of the days.”

 

[Eric E Stahl]

The 7 year tribulation is in two parts.

First Jerusalem under the two witnesses for 1260 days.

Second Jerusalem under the antichrist for 42 months

Revelation 11

Revelation 11
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

[DaDad]

Hi DaDad




I agree with your view on Daniel 9. I don't fully agree with 42 months being the complete duration of The Time of The End. Daniel 9 seems to be a major fork in the road for prophecy students.



I wouldn't say it has NOTHING to do with Christ's return. He has to finish cleansing The Temple before he can begin The Tribulation. You are right that the 2300 days don't belong with the three prophetic time periods mentioned in Daniel 12.

Hi DaveWatchman,

Thanks for you note back. In regards to Daniel 9, the most clear reference to the Tribulation is in verse 27 as underlined:

27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”



In regards to Daniel 8, most commentators ascribe the He-Goat as "Greece", which is a misnomer, and is resolved by Daniel 2:

21 And the he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.

The first consideration is that the term "Greece" is a "type", as Daniel 2 provides:

39 ... and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

In this, we must understand that prior to the Image of Metals kings controlled individuals but didn't build a society. With Nebuchadnezzar came the "metropolis" model:

The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[1] -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[2]



[1] John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, pp. 13-14, p. 35


[2] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224


And where this model is global (i.e., "all the earth"), we can see the extrapolation where our government regulates the size soft drinks.



Secondly, historians tell us that the Grecian Empire was divided in FIVE portions:



[SIZE=11pt]“Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Selecucs Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1][/SIZE]



[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558[/SIZE]




... but the commentators need FOUR, so they selectively reconstructed the historical record to achieve a dishonest "fulfillment".



And finally, there is a sequence of world empires for which one matches the prescribed evolution:

9 ... which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.


And I can give you a hint that the U.S., Canada, and China are great nations having 3M sq. miles. However, Russia is "exceedingly great" having 8M sq. miles. Toward this premise, Russia WILL attack the "glorious land" in the near future.

Of course this does not answer who the king is who understands riddles, and who lasts for 2,300 days, but these are also known.



With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[Poppin]

Alexander the Great’s (GREEK) four (4) generals divided and controlled his (GREEK) empire.
Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy.

Daniel 8:22
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Lysimachus - Thrace and most of Asia Minor.
Cassander - Macedonia and Greece.
Ptolemy - Egypt, Palestine, Cilicia, Petra, and Cyprus
Seleucus - Syria, Babylon, Persia, and India.

Daniel 8:23
23 And in the latter time of their [Greek] kingdom, when the transgressors [Jewish apostates] are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.....[Antiochus Epiphanes]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a Greek king of the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes

 

[DaDad]

Lysimachus - Thrace and most of Asia Minor.
Cassander - Macedonia and Greece.
Ptolemy - Egypt, Palestine, Cilicia, Petra, and Cyprus
Seleucus - Syria, Babylon, Persia, and India.

Hi Poppin,

Please cite an historian, typical of the following:

[SIZE=11pt]“Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Selecucs Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1][/SIZE]



[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558[/SIZE]



1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Selecucs Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

According to the Historians, that's FIVE.


Secondly, the purported Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not reign for 2,300 days. However another DID.



With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[Poppin]

Hi Poppin,

Please cite an historian, typical of the following:

[SIZE=11pt]“Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Selecucs Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1][/SIZE]



[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558[/SIZE]



1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Selecucs Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

According to the Historians, that's FIVE.


Secondly, the purported Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not reign for 2,300 days. However another DID.



With Best Regards,
DaDad

Daniel covers all the kingdoms seen in the Metal Image.
As the time for the Incarnation approaches, the prophecies and persons and figures are compact and densely described throughout Daniel.

There were (as Daniel was told) many or several wars and desolations before the end. There were several enemies of the jewish people, and the desolation (abomination) of Antiochus was not the one under the Romans that the Christians were to watch for.

Judas Maccabee cleansed the sanctuary after Antiochus. The feast of dedication (or festival of lights) it is called.

1 Maccabees 1:44-50
For the king [Antiochus] had sent letters unto Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, that they should follow the strange laws of the land. And forbid burnt offerings and sacrifice, and drink offerings in the temple; and that they should profane the Sabbaths and festival days: and pollute the sanctuary and holy people: set up altars and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine's flesh, and unclean beasts. That they should also leave their children uncircumcised, and make their souls abominable with all manner of uncleanness and profanation: to the end they might forget the law, and change all the ordinances. And whosoever would not do according to the commandment of the king (he said) he should die.

Daniel 8:24
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Still Antiochus.

Anyway, Daniel tells and retells of all those king(doms) from different viewpoints.

For example, Chapter 11 is a good one as it starts over again discussing people and events from from the Babylonian captivity to Caesar Augustus (and the time of the incarnation).

The Persians and Greeks - 11:1-4
The Seleucids and Ptolemies 11:5-20
Antiochus 11:21-32
The Maccabees (or Hasmoneans) 11:32-35
Herod the Great (king of the jews) 11:36-39

Daniel 11
36 And the king [Herod] shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined

Caesar Augustus 11:40-43

Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

And then Daniel goes back to Herod:

Herod the Great 11:44-45

Daniel 11
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

This is what Daniel is saying:

Matthew 2
The Visit of the Wise Men
1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise mena from the east came to Jerusalem, 2saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it roseb and have come to worship him.” 3When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; 4and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:

6 “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for from you shall come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel.’”

7Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared. 8And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.” 9After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.

The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Herod Kills the Children
16Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. 17Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:

18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
weeping and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”

The Return to Nazareth
19But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20saying, “Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child’s life are dead.” 21And he rose and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there, and being warned in a dream he withdrew to the district of Galilee. 23And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”

 

[DaDad]

Hi Poppin,

It's a simple request.

1. Provide an HISTORIANS account of the division of Alexanders empire -- whether Four -- as you propose; or Five as Will Durant documents.
2. Provide the duration which Antiochus IV Epiphanes reigned.

Hi Poppin,

Please cite an historian, typical of the following:

[SIZE=11pt]“Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Selecucs Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1][/SIZE]



[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558[/SIZE]



1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Selecucs Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

According to the Historians, that's FIVE.


Secondly, the purported Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not reign for 2,300 days. However another DID.



With Best Regards,
DaDad

With Best Regards,
Dadad



PS I'm still waiting for your alternate explanation of the Daniel 2:45 Five World Empire INTELLIGENT DESIGN sequence. (Excusing it away is not an acceptable response.)

 

[Poppin]

Hi Poppin,

It's a simple request.

1. Provide an HISTORIANS account of the division of Alexanders empire -- whether Four -- as you propose; or Five as Will Durant documents.
2. Provide the duration which Antiochus IV Epiphanes reigned.



With Best Regards,
Dadad



PS I'm still waiting for your alternate explanation of the Daniel 2:45 Five World Empire INTELLIGENT DESIGN sequence. (Excusing it away is not an acceptable response.)

No comment on anything else I posted?

I don't know what you're asking.
The Bible says 4 kings came out of Alexander. History tells us they were his generals.
You say 5.
What are you asking. I do not know. Make it any 4 you wish then.

http://www.biblicalscholarship.net/fourhorns.htm

REGION GENERAL
I. Macedonia
(Macedonia ruled Greece for 200 years.) Antigonus
II. Asia
(Called Asia Minor today. It is modern day Turkey.) Lysimachus
(generally ruled western portion of Asia Minor in addition to Thrace in Europe.)
III. Syria Seleucus
(in addition to portions of Asia.)
IV. Egypt Ptolemy
(The infamous Cleopatra was the last Ptolemy to rule Egypt.)

Really, put any 4 in there you want to. As long it aligns with the bible which says 4 (there were more under them: see - DIADOCHI)

---

Provide the duration which Antiochus IV Epiphanes reigned.

UH...why?
He persecuted the JEWS for 2300 days. that's what Josephus says; that's what Maccabees says, that's what Daniel says.
The 2300 days is about persecution. Not length of reign. That's what it says in Daniel.

here. I'll offer more when I can.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

DaDad
"PS I'm still waiting for your alternate explanation of the Daniel 2:45 Five World Empire INTELLIGENT DESIGN sequence. (Excusing it away is not an acceptable response.)"



I'm not excusing it away, as you say. I currently am not able to see the significance.
I am not intelligent enough to decode it.
Could you please explain it to me (i have asked many times)?
Then we will both know, and if it seems right, I will agree and rejoice with you!
love in Christ,
Poppin.

 

[DaDad]

The Bible says 4 kings came out of Alexander. History tells us they were his generals.

http://www.biblicalscholarship.net/fourhorns.htm

Hi Poppin,

The Bible DOESN'T say 4-kings came out of Alexander. Teachers say the Bible says.

Prophetic Scripture must match HISTORY, otherwise GOD is a liar. As such please provide an account from an HISTORIAN, not someone who twists history to achieve an agenda.

-- Please note that it would be dishonest to suggest that California was one of the 14 Colonies, just because it ended up as part of the United States of America. As such, it would be equally dishonest to present the "four" generals which prevailed over time, versus the FIVE generals which actually received Alexander's kingdom upon his death:


1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. Selecucs Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558


If you can provide an Historians account where Alexander's kingdom was divided between "Four" generals, then we might be able to resolve which source is correct!

Provide the duration which Antiochus IV Epiphanes reigned.

He persecuted the JEWS for 2300 days. that's what Josephus says; that's what Maccabees says, that's what Daniel says.
The 2300 days is about persecution. Not length of reign. That's what it says in Daniel.

Daniel 8
23 And at the latter end of their rule, when the transgressors have reached their full measure, a king of bold countenance, one who understands riddles, shall arise. 24 His power shall be great,[f] and he shall cause fearful destruction, and shall succeed in what he does, and destroy mighty men and the people of the saints. 25 By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall magnify himself. Without warning he shall destroy many; and he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes; but, by no human hand, he shall be broken. 26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings which has been told is true; but seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence.”


Scripture provides that the 2,300 pertains to the reign of the "king of bold countenance". And if you assign this to Antiochus, then you are left with his 10-year duration (per your citation).

I'm not excusing it away, as you say. I currently am not able to see the significance.
I am not intelligent enough to decode it.
Could you please explain it to me (i have asked many times)?

The INTELLIGENT DESIGN is given in the Dan. 2:45 sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. The observation is that there indeed are FIVE world empires, for which the Fifth "Feet of Clay" is "divided" exactly as evidenced in this 3-superpower era. Of course, we also know that each of these are Republics, which have the residue of Iron (Roman REPUBLIC) in this Fifth empire of Clay. And finally we also know the 10 nations which are represented by the 10 Toes of the Image.

No comment on anything else I posted?

Poppin, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but when the Angel says the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end, -- the Prophecies are indeed shut up and sealed until approximately 1948. Thus, as proposed by the simple reading of Dan. 2:45, on forward, the commentators have contrived "fulfillments" which Newton readily debunked. However, he too failed to assign those events to history, as ~1730 was equally not the time of the end, and refused to publish his own failed research. It's too bad the other commentators didn't have his integrity, otherwise they might too have been called "Sir".

But the question remains: How is Daniel a modern prophecy, and who will work their way through it?

So to you, -- are you willing to start down that path by resolving 2:45, and discover that the Chapter 2 FIVE ≠ the Chapter 7 FOUR?


With Best Regards,
DaDad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

The abomination will happen 30 days before the great tribulation starts.

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


The abomination will happen 30 days before the great tribulation starts.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The woman Israel in Revelation 12:13-14 flees when the devil is cast down and persecutes Israel for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years.

 

[DaDad]

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hi Eric,

The seventieth week is past. The a/c is still future:

Daniel 9
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


You really should stop believing the commentators, and study what the literal text actually says.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Hi Eric,

The seventieth week is past. The a/c is still future:

Daniel 9
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


You really should stop believing the commentators, and study what the literal text actually says.


With Best Regards,
DD

DD,

Zechariah 13:7-9

Zechariah 13
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This did not happen in 70AD. It will in Israel's 70th week of years.

 

[DaDad]

This did not happen in 70AD. It will in Israel's 70th week of years.

Hi Eric,

Daniel's 70 weeks are not an ancient prophecy, -- it is reserved for the era approximate to 1948. Of these seventy periods of time, 69 are the inconcise Masculine text [shibiym], and the 70th is the concise Feminine text [shabuwa]. All have been fulfilled in modern days, and we are pending the a/c which "shall come".

Daniel 9
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


Please read the 9th Chapter in the literal text to discover how it complies with the Angelic instructions:

Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end....”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. ... "


Or you can continue believing that which Montgomery accurately discounted:

The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Poppin,

The Bible DOESN'T say 4-kings came out of Alexander. Teachers say the Bible says.

Prophetic Scripture must match HISTORY, otherwise GOD is a liar. As such please provide an account from an HISTORIAN, not someone who twists history to achieve an agenda.

-- Please note that it would be dishonest to suggest that California was one of the 14 Colonies, just because it ended up as part of the United States of America. As such, it would be equally dishonest to present the "four" generals which prevailed over time, versus the FIVE generals which actually received Alexander's kingdom upon his death:


1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. Selecucs Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558


If you can provide an Historians account where Alexander's kingdom was divided between "Four" generals, then we might be able to resolve which source is correct!

...


With Best Regards,
DaDad

History? How about that of the Makedonikans themselves?

After his [Alexander's] death, nearly all the noble Susa marriages dissolved, which shows that the Macedonians despised the idea. There never came to unity between Macedonians and Persians and there wasn't even a unity among the Macedonians. Alexander's death opened the anarchic age of the Successors and a bloody Macedonian civil war for power followed. As soon as the news of Alexander's death were known, the Greeks rebelled yet again and so begun the Lamian War. The Macedonians were defeated and expelled from Greece, but then Antipater received reinforcements from Craterus who brought to Macedonia the 10,000 veterans discharged at Opis. Antipater and Craterus jointly marched into Greece, defeated the Greek army at Crannon in Thessaly and brought the war to an end. Greece will remain under Macedonian rule for the next one and a half century. In Asia the Macedonian commanders who served Alexander fought each other for power. Perdiccas and Meleager were murdered, Antigonus rose to control most of Asia, but his growth of power brought the other Macedonian generals in coalition against him. He was killed in battle and the Macedonian Empire split into four main kingdoms - the one of Seleucus (Asia), Ptolemy (Egypt), Lysimachus (Thrace), and Antipater's son Cassander (Macedonia, including Greece). The rise of Rome put an end to Macedonian kingdoms. Macedonia and Greece were conquered in 167/145 BC, Seleucid Asia by 65 BC, and Cleopatra VII, the last Macedonian descendent of Ptolemy committed suicide in 30 BC, after which Egypt was added to the Roman Empire.

(Boldfacing is mine.) This can be found at http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/.

 

[Poppin]

So to you, -- are you willing to start down that path by resolving 2:45, and discover that the Chapter 2 FIVE ≠ the Chapter 7 FOUR?


With Best Regards,
DaDad

what path?
if there's significance, tell me what it is.
if it is only for the few, it's not what you think it is.
would you take part in a thread on the book of daniel?
it's aaaaaaamazing.
all fulfilled.
faith building to see it....scripture/scripture + history = God is precision
God Bless,
Poppin

This did not happen in 70AD. It will in Israel's 70th week of years.

The 70th week followed the 69th.
Jesus fulfilled His atoning work on the cross and rose from the dead in the 70th week.
If He didn't (right on schedule, btw); you are not saved.