Daniel 12: 11

[DaDad]

Hi Retrobyter,

...OR Will Durant is wrong, book or no book!

... thus I've asked multiple times for YOU to provide an Historian's account of the division of Alexander's empire, which you repeatedly REFUSE. So until you provide otherwise, the cited Historian stands, in spite your doctrinally driven version.

As it is, I think of the concept: An honest man has nothing to fear by telling the TRUTH. -- I'm not afraid, but it seems YOU are!




So which it it? Is your GOD so fragile that HIS WORD cannot stand the test of History? OR, (as I would propose), is GOD and History BOTH True, and your doctrine false?

Deut 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.




1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. Seleucus Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558



With Best Regards,
DD


PS When we resolve that Dan. 8 has nothing to do with an ancient fulfillment, we can proceed to the end-time significance, as REQUIRED by the Angel's instructions given in Dan. 12:4 & Dan. 12:9.

 

[Poppin]

Hi Poppin,

45 ,,, the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


that's FIVE.




Perhaps you missed the following:




With Best Regards,
DD




PS And yes, Daniel substantiates the FIVE, in Chapters 7, 8 & 11. In addition, John substantiates the FIVE in Rev. 13 & 17. Furthermore, we should find the numbers 7 (perfection) and 10 (completion) = perfectly complete.





To All,

If an aluminum wheel company machinist made a "wheel" strictly to the Plan View, he could use sheet metal and do it in minutes, -- but he is FIRED. Alternately a good machinist would complying with all the views and cross-sections, and build a casting which takes days, and performs as designed. And he is PROMOTED.

So too is the "student" who attempts to interpret Scripture with one perspective, who is FLUNKED, versus the good student which complies with ALL the provided information, and is REWARDED..



So who is the student who can resolve the Intelligent Design of verse 45?

Dan. 2;45
,,, the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE



With Best Regards,
DD

Well I'll just say best wishes and bow out of this particular discussion with you, DD.
Daniel is not a futuristic book. We'll agree to disagree.
Poppin.

 

[DaDad]

Well I'll just say best wishes and bow out of this particular discussion with you, DD.
Daniel is not a futuristic book. We'll agree to disagree.
Poppin.

Hi Poppin,

It's too bad that the Prophecies and History speak for themselves, but Doctrines over-rule them. Maybe some day false doctrines will be revealed for what they are.

With Best Regards,
DD



To All,

The distinction between perspectives is whether the Daniel 2:45 sequence is from GOD's Perfect Intelligent Design:

Dan. 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


... or whether it is simply GOD's absentmindedness, thrown from random thoughts and ill conceived notions.


So are we to accept the 1,2,3,4a/4b, which some espouse, or is there a Greater Authority directing the sequence of World Empires, of which the "FIFTH" is "divided" -- presumably between the 3-superpowers and the United Nations?

Daniel 2:41
And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom



As such should we believe doctrines, or Scripture? If Scripture then we are children of light, -- but if doctrines, then as Jesus guided:

Luke 9:56
And they went on to another village.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, DaDad.

Hi Retrobyter,



... thus I've asked multiple times for YOU to provide an Historian's account of the division of Alexander's empire, which you repeatedly REFUSE. So until you provide otherwise, the cited Historian stands, in spite your doctrinally driven version.

As it is, I think of the concept: An honest man has nothing to fear by telling the TRUTH. -- I'm not afraid, but it seems YOU are!




So which it it? Is your GOD so fragile that HIS WORD cannot stand the test of History? OR, (as I would propose), is GOD and History BOTH True, and your doctrine false?

Deut 18:22
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.




1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. Seleucus Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558



With Best Regards,
DD


PS When we resolve that Dan. 8 has nothing to do with an ancient fulfillment, we can proceed to the end-time significance, as REQUIRED by the Angel's instructions given in Dan. 12:4 & Dan. 12:9.

Fooey. When have I "repeatedly REFUSED" your "request" DEMAND?! I've given you a COUPLE of websites that have SUMMARIES from NUMEROUS historians!

Y'know, I'm with Poppin. You just refuse to be civil; so, I too am bowing out of this conversation. Believe what you want to believe; you will anyway, regardless what I present to you. You're just being pugnacious.

 

[DaDad]

Y'know, I'm with Poppin.

Hi Retrobyter,

I agree. Neither you nor Poppin will resolve Scripture and History, so they both stand as presented, in that this passage (in compliance with Dan. 12:4 & Dan. 12:9) has NOTHING to do with Alexander's Empire:

Daniel 8:21
And the he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.

. for Alexander's empire did NOT have a division of FOUR, but rather a division of FIVE:


1. [SIZE=11pt]Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Lysimachus Thrace[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]3. Antigonus Asia Minor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]4. Seleucus Babylonea[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]5. Ptolemy Egypt[/SIZE]

Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558


... which cannot be refuted either as an indictment against this source, as Retrobyter's own reference attests:

Macedonian [#1] unity collapsed, and 40 years of war between "The Successors" (Diadochi) ensued before the Hellenistic world settled into four [#2,3,4,5] stable power blocks



So what is the SOLUTION? I would propose that just as Daniel 2:45 demands a FIVE world empire scenario, so too this He-Goat parallels that Image of Metals:


IS: Head of Gold, -- Babylonian / He-Goat (Metropolis Model, which all subsequent empires follow, even unto today)
+1. Breast of Silver, -- Medo/Persian / 1 of 4
+2. Belly of Bronze, -- Grecian / 2 of 4
+3. Legs of Iron, -- Roman / 3 of 4
+4. Feet of Clay, -- "divided" between 3-superpowers / 4 of 4


And so we resolve the "he-goat is the king of Greece", knowing that in 2:39, what is recognized as the Grecian Empire fulfillment is called "all the earth", exactly as the "METROPOLIS" MODEL is attested by the Superman Comics for that pinnacle model, -- New York City:


Daniel 2:39
... and yet a third kingdom of bronze [Greece], which shall rule over all the earth.

[SIZE=12pt]The Babylonian Empire was “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the first true metropolis[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[/SIZE][SIZE=8pt][2][/SIZE]



[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35[/SIZE]


[SIZE=8pt][2][/SIZE] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224






And of course, if one were to follow the rest of this Chapter 8 prophecy, one could resolve Russia as the cited "little horn", for which Daniel 7 clarifies is only ONE of ELEVEN "little horns":

Daniel 7:20
and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn [eleventh] which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows.

Thus all ELEVEN "fellows" are little horns.



Hope this wasn't too confusing,
DD

 

[John 8:32]

1260 days of the Great Tribulation ending in the return fo Christ and the establishment of the Kingdom of God.
30 days before the beginning of the GT (1290 days) the enigmatic sign given to those who understand, the Abomination of Desolation is set up.
45 days before that is the gathering of the church (1335 days) for a flight to a place of safety.

 

[DaDad]

1260 days of the Great Tribulation ...

Hi John 8:32,

Before you "believe" the church 7-year-tribulation doctrine, I would propose that you research where that doctrine comes from, (Daniel 9, "seventieth week"), and then research the TRUTH of what that Chapter actually says. And please be aware that the English text does not carry the full connotation of the inconcise Masculine gender text, -- much like a "cool" car does not require a hat, coat, and gloves.

Or possibly you do need those things to ride in a "cool" car!


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[John 8:32]

I am looking for some input on Dan 12:11.

According to some English translations the 1290 days begins with the elimination of "daily sacrifices" and concludes with the AC being "setup".

Every study I have done or found points to the elimination of the "daily sacrifices" at the same time the AC is "setup".

If the translations are correct and the vision begins with the elimination of the "daily sacrifices" and concludes with the AC being "setup" 1290 days later, then this would imply that the Tribulation period begins with the taking away of the "daily sacrifices".

Assuming the "daily sacrifices" and the "setup" do take place at the same time, then that Dan 12:11 is only describing the events which conclude the 1290 days with no description of any event starting the 1290 days. This has been my understanding.

Input please.

Guy

All three times are counted back from the return of Christ. 1335 days before His return, 1290 days before His return and 1260 days before His return.

Hi John 8:32,

Before you "believe" the church 7-year-tribulation doctrine, I would propose that you research where that doctrine comes from, (Daniel 9, "seventieth week"), and then research the TRUTH of what that Chapter actually says. And please be aware that the English text does not carry the full connotation of the inconcise Masculine gender text, -- much like a "cool" car does not require a hat, coat, and gloves.

Or possibly you do need those things to ride in a "cool" car!


With Best Regards,
DD

Why would I say the seven year tribulation? I don't believe that. I believe the trib is 3-1/2 years.

 

[DaDad]

Why would I say the seven year tribulation? I don't believe that. I believe the trib is 3-1/2 years.

Hi John 8:32,

I believe if you re-read my post, you should find that I'm in FULL AGREEMENT with your now more full enunciated 42 month doctrine:

Rev. 13:5
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.


Unfortunately most church doctrines teach a FALSE "seven-year" tribulation, which is based upon an incorrect "interpretation" of Daniel's seventieth week. When in FACT, Daniel's seventieth week has NOTHING to do with the Tribulation, except that the a/c "shall come" after the seventieth week:

Daniel 9:27
... and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, ...



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[John 8:32]

Hi John 8:32,

I believe if you re-read my post, you should find that I'm in FULL AGREEMENT with your now more full enunciated 42 month doctrine:

Rev. 13:5
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

Unfortunately most church doctrines teach a FALSE "seven-year" tribulation, which is based upon an incorrect "interpretation" of Daniel's seventieth week. When in FACT, Daniel's seventieth week has NOTHING to do with the Tribulation, except that the a/c "shall come" after the seventieth week:

Daniel 9:27
... and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, ...


With Best Regards,
DD

And I was simply confirming the fact.

 

[Jun2u]

I say this kindly. The reason no one in this forum or this thread cannot understand the deeper meanings of Scripture and/or things of God, is because Christians tend to read the Bible superficially and very casually (literal), just like the world. They critique the Bible as if it is an ordinary book. Oh, don’t get me wrong, there are many in here that understand scripture texts but miss the whole picture altogether.

As a matter of truth, God had given us the methodology by which we can understand the more difficult passages of the Bible: I Corinthians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 3:16; Mark 4:34; 4:11-12. After all, if we are reading the same Bible wouldn’t it be logical to arrive with the same conclusions?

Dan 12:11 cannot be found else where in Scripture. So how can we understand this text using the method above, and with the number 1290?

I believe this is the time of Jacob’s entrance to Egypt. Jacob went to Egypt in 1877 B.C. and the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years. They were conquered by the
Babvlonians in 587 B.C. and at the same time Judah was also destroyed. This is the formula:
Jacob went to Egypt……….. 1877
Judah destroyed…………….. -587
Total sum……………..…………1290

God spoke about a “third part” in the book of Revelation Chapters 8 and 9 but a better clearer understanding can be found in the book of Zechariah 13:8-9.

v. 8 “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts
(unsaved) therein shall be cut off and die; but the third part shall be left
therein.”

v. 9 “And I will bring the third (believers) part through the fire (hell) and will refine
them as silver is refined, as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will
hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.”
(Words in parenthesis are mine). Here is the formula:

Israel in Egypt………430 yrs. Third part……….430 430
Third part………………x3 Two parts……… x2 +860
Total sum……………1290 Total sum………..860 =1290

Dan 12:12

“Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

This verse is speaking of Jesus Christ as He came in the fullness of time. He had to wait to be announced by John the Baptist to begin His ministry and also as the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world.

The phrase, “Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh…” has the same idea as “Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.”

Jesus’ ministry began when He was baptized at the Jordan River and ended on Pentecost, exactly 1335 days.

I hope and pray this helped some of you.

To God Be The Glory.