Daniel 7 - 10 horns....

[CTK]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

 

[Douggg]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

Why call the 4th beast kingdom "pagan" Rome ? Why not just - Roman empire ?

The little horn person is time of the end. Daniel 7:25, the time, times, half time is the second half to the 7 years right before Jesus's return (see my chart below).

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[quietthinker]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

I need to ask this question from the outset....
Can numbers be representative other than their sum of digits?

 

[Randy Kluth]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

Visions are sort of timeless at times and have to be read with this in mind. The order of events mentioned do not indicate a chronological order. It is just a statement regarding the ultimate demise of the 4th Kingdom, that it will be "thrown into the fire."

Dan 7,11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire."

Notice that Daniel was watching the "Little Horn," which is, I think, the Antichrist. So, this destruction of the 4th Kingdom takes place at the end of the age, when the Son of Man comes from the clouds to destroy the Antichrist.

While it is true that Rome fell in 476 AD it is not true that European Imperialism ended that Roman culture. It revived in 800 AD with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire, which migrated to places like Germany, Austria, and Spain. In the East, the Byzantine part of the Roman Empire continued and did not fall until 1453 AD. Even today, Russia has embraced that Imperial inheritance and is even now trying to extend its Empire.

So, the 10 nations of Europe have yet to unite in a confederation under Antichrist. Antichrist has not come yet. When he does he will have the world in his grip for 1260 days. After that, I think the world will rebel against his European "Superpower" status, and Armageddon will result.

 

[CTK]

Visions are sort of timeless at times and have to be read with this in mind. The order of events mentioned do not indicate a chronological order. It is just a statement regarding the ultimate demise of the 4th Kingdom, that it will be "thrown into the fire."

Dan 7,11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire."

Notice that Daniel was watching the "Little Horn," which is, I think, the Antichrist. So, this destruction of the 4th Kingdom takes place at the end of the age, when the Son of Man comes from the clouds to destroy the Antichrist.

While it is true that Rome fell in 476 AD it is not true that European Imperialism ended that Roman culture. It revived in 800 AD with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire, which migrated to places like Germany, Austria, and Spain. In the East, the Byzantine part of the Roman Empire continued and did not fall until 1453 AD. Even today, Russia has embraced that Imperial inheritance and is even now trying to extend its Empire.

So, the 10 nations of Europe have yet to unite in a confederation under Antichrist. Antichrist has not come yet. When he does he will have the world in his grip for 1260 days. After that, I think the world will rebel against his European "Superpower" status, and Armageddon will result.

Thanks Randy, but it seems clear that God is indeed giving us prophecies that took place exactly when they did occur - Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Also, there is no mention of a "antii'Christ" literal individual in all of the NT. There is however, the mention of the "anti-Christ" spirit that would be found after the cross and continue to the end of time. But no literal "anti-Christ" person. But God has gone to great lengths to introduce the "little horn" actor - a literal evil one that comes out of pagan Rome after the 10 horns come out. He describes what this "little horn" will do in chapters 7, 8 and 11 - and quite detailed. This is the one that goes against His people, His church, His gospel and claims divinity, infallibility, ability to forgive sin, and speak a very different gospel. And notice he does NOT come at the end of time but CONTINUES until the end of time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks Randy, but it seems clear that God is indeed giving us prophecies that took place exactly when they did occur - Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Also, there is no mention of a "antii'Christ" literal individual in all of the NT. There is however, the mention of the "anti-Christ" spirit that would be found after the cross and continue to the end of time. But no literal "anti-Christ" person. But God has gone to great lengths to introduce the "little horn" actor - a literal evil one that comes out of pagan Rome after the 10 horns come out. He describes what this "little horn" will do in chapters 7, 8 and 11 - and quite detailed. This is the one that goes against His people, His church, His gospel and claims divinity, infallibility, ability to forgive sin, and speak a very different gospel. And notice he does NOT come at the end of time but CONTINUES until the end of time.

Yes, we see things quite differently. But that's the nature of prophetic interpretation. Take care...

 

[Jay Ross]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

You are trying to find a common topology that confirms that the Daniel 2 Prophecy, the statue prophecy concerning what will happen over time to the Land of Babylon, is directly linked to the Daniel 7 prophecy, which is about the wicked heavenly hosts who are the beasts, who exercise influence over people groups, kingdoms and empires found anywhere in the whole earth, where there is no common contextual topology between the two scriptural passages.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are trying to find a common topology that confirms that the Daniel 2 Prophecy, the statue prophecy concerning what will happen over time to the Land of Babylon, is directly linked to the Daniel 7 prophecy, which is about the wicked heavenly hosts who are the beasts, who exercise influence over people groups, kingdoms and empires found anywhere in the whole earth, where there is no common contextual topology between the two scriptural passages.

That's a bit strong. Dan 2 and Dan 7 are different dreams, for sure. However, they occur in the same little book--the book of Daniel. And the fact they are 4 seems to link them.

You say the "beasts" are "wicked heavenly hosts." Where do you find this in the text?

 

[Jay Ross]

You say the "beasts" are "wicked heavenly hosts." Where do you find this in the text?

In Daniel 7:2-3, 8:8 and Ephesians 6:12.

The beast we see manifest up out of the churned sea because of the influence of the four winds of heaven who are the beasts behind the manifested beasts in the sea of humanity.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In Daniel 7:2-3, 8:8 and Ephesians 5:12.

The beast we see manifest up out of the churned sea because of the influence of the four winds of heaven who are the beasts behind the manifested beasts in the sea of humanity.

Okay, I understand your rationale. I just don't read it that way myself. To me, the beasts who come out of the sea are apparently not the heavenly winds that stir them up. Or, am I wrong?

 

[Douggg]

In Daniel 7:2-3, 8:8 and Ephesians 5:12.

The beast we see manifest up out of the churned sea because of the influence of the four winds of heaven who are the beasts behind the manifested beasts in the sea of humanity.

Typo, Ephesians 6:12.

 

[Douggg]

In Daniel 7:2-3, 8:8 and Ephesians 5:12.

The beast we see manifest up out of the churned sea because of the influence of the four winds of heaven who are the beasts behind the manifested beasts in the sea of humanity.

The phrase "the four winds of heaven" just refers to the four main directions used in the bible of north, south, east, west.

 

[Douggg]

Okay, I understand your rationale. I just don't read it that way myself. To me, the beasts who come out of the sea are apparently not the heavenly winds that stir them up. Or, am I wrong?

You are right. The four beasts come up from the sea. Verse 3.

Daniel 7:
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks Randy, but it seems clear that God is indeed giving us prophecies that took place exactly when they did occur - Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Also, there is no mention of a "antii'Christ" literal individual in all of the NT. There is however, the mention of the "anti-Christ" spirit that would be found after the cross and continue to the end of time. But no literal "anti-Christ" person. But God has gone to great lengths to introduce the "little horn" actor - a literal evil one that comes out of pagan Rome after the 10 horns come out. He describes what this "little horn" will do in chapters 7, 8 and 11 - and quite detailed. This is the one that goes against His people, His church, His gospel and claims divinity, infallibility, ability to forgive sin, and speak a very different gospel. And notice he does NOT come at the end of time but CONTINUES until the end of time.

"pagan" Rome, "papal" Rome are SDA eschatology terms. The little horn in SDA eschatoloy is the papacy, the popes. However, the text of Daniel 8 indicates a singular time of the end person who will commit the "transgression of desolation" of Daniel 8:13.

That singular person is described in Daniel 8:23-26 as a king of fierce countenance (verse 23).

 

[Randy Kluth]

"pagan" Rome, "papal" Rome are SDA eschatology terms. The little horn in SDA eschatoloy is the papacy, the popes. However, the text of Daniel 8 indicates a singular time of the end person who will commit the "transgression of desolation" of Daniel 8:13.

That singular person is described in Daniel 8:23-26 as a king of fierce countenance (verse 23).

Yes, SDA probably got their eschatology from the Reformed Church, who also thought that the Papacy was the Antichrist? The reason I am a Futurist, and left my Reformed background, is because I think the Futurists were right, from Ribera to Lacunza to Irving and Darby. The final Antichrist has not come yet.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do agree with some of its Futurism.

 

[Jay Ross]

Typo, Ephesians 6:12.

Just seeing if people would notice the typo.

As for your other comments, they show that you have no understanding of how the beasts hid behind the manifestations of themsleves to become invisible.

 

[Jay Ross]

The phrase "the four winds of heaven" just refers to the four main directions used in the bible of north, south, east, west.

Still not understanding the revelation given in Daniel 7:2-3.

 

[CTK]

"pagan" Rome, "papal" Rome are SDA eschatology terms. The little horn in SDA eschatoloy is the papacy, the popes. However, the text of Daniel 8 indicates a singular time of the end person who will commit the "transgression of desolation" of Daniel 8:13.

That singular person is described in Daniel 8:23-26 as a king of fierce countenance (verse 23).

"pagan" Rome, "papal" Rome are SDA eschatology terms. The little horn in SDA eschatoloy is the papacy, the popes. However, the text of Daniel 8 indicates a singular time of the end person who will commit the "transgression of desolation" of Daniel 8:13.

That singular person is described in Daniel 8:23-26 as a king of fierce countenance (verse 23).

Please answer this question:

Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Who is the little horn?

 

[CTK]

You are trying to find a common topology that confirms that the Daniel 2 Prophecy, the statue prophecy concerning what will happen over time to the Land of Babylon, is directly linked to the Daniel 7 prophecy, which is about the wicked heavenly hosts who are the beasts, who exercise influence over people groups, kingdoms and empires found anywhere in the whole earth, where there is no common contextual topology between the two scriptural passages.

Please answer this question:

Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Who is the little horn?

 

[CTK]

Yes, we see things quite differently. But that's the nature of prophetic interpretation. Take care...

Please answer this question:

Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Who is the little horn?