Oh, then I misunderstood your meaning. When you said it "stuck to you" and was "terrible," I thought you meant in His eyes, not that its effects psychologically stuck with you as a person. I suppose that depends on the individual, but better safe than really sorry.
Dating A Non-Christian
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To further add to this, walking in faith will mean not being swayed by what our feelings and emotions may be thinking to throw at us.
When OUR WILL lines up perfectly with HIS WILL FOR US, we will only pray for that which He wants us to have anyway.
I pray you will search long and hard and ask Him to reveal to you if you should be basing a relationship on feelings that may very well be leading you away from HIM.
If He is not calling her then there is absolutely nothing you can do as a prospective romantic partner to bring her to Him.
You follow Him or you follow your heart and He said your heart is wicked and deceitful and who can know it.
Profundis, you read this, and please think further before you reply in a situation like this in the future --- this young brother is showing more maturity than ive ever seen in coming here to ask for help with this, and you offered nothing more than HUMAN REASONING in this post.
Matt. 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
paul9401, if you shared the gospel with her what would you say? how would you present the gospel an what would you say? its very important that you present the everything an not leave one thing out. the main thing is that you tell her exactly WHO God is and what he requires. just some encouragement :)
and also what God IS NOT. thats very important too.
and also what God IS NOT. thats very important too.
That's all any of us can offer, really. Our own fallible, mortal, human reasoning and interpretation of His divine Word. I cited the exact same passage of scripture as others have, I merely understand that passage in a different way, with that understanding grounded in other lines from the scripture. If being "equally yoked," to a non-believer were a problem or an impossibility, why would the Lord not simply tell us not to be yoked, without adjectives, to one of a different faith? Paul is, indeed, mature to ask others for help, but that also means he's mature enough to hear multiple viewpoints and make up his own mind. I also believe he's mature enough to try the relationship and know when he needs to remove himself if it's not working, as it might not. If he truly believes he is falling in love, though, to toss that aside without giving it half an attempt, without any faith or hope, seems a tragic waste of the Lord's most beautiful gift. What if he is the Lord's instrument to show her His light? To me, Christ's teaching is to accept, to embrace, and to Love.
Hello,
I want to thank you all so much for your help and support!
I'm still having a really hard time making a desission, allthough in my mind I know what the best thing would be, my heart says otherwise.
For the while, I think I'm just staying friends with her, and see how things go.
I will try and talk to her about God, I want to know what she exactly thinks about it, and tell her how I think about it. I won't force her to do anything because that will just scare people away.
I will tell try to tell her who God is, and who He is not.
Please, pray for me, because it will be hard for me to tell her about this.
Thank you all for your love and helpfullness!
I want to thank you all so much for your help and support!
I'm still having a really hard time making a desission, allthough in my mind I know what the best thing would be, my heart says otherwise.
For the while, I think I'm just staying friends with her, and see how things go.
I will try and talk to her about God, I want to know what she exactly thinks about it, and tell her how I think about it. I won't force her to do anything because that will just scare people away.
I will tell try to tell her who God is, and who He is not.
Please, pray for me, because it will be hard for me to tell her about this.
Thank you all for your love and helpfullness!
Present the gospel, what a lovely thought, and scare her away, mess up ypur life, take a way a chance for God to do something . just because chrisrians love to use the bible as a weapon. God is into LOVE that is what HE is all about, what right do any of you have to tell this man to do what you think is right. Is it not up to God as to whom He saves . BE yourself, let God open the doors, you wont be sorry, but if you do what most oin this post want, you will probably regret it and you may find you will both end up hating God and blaming it all on Him.
In His Love
In His Love
My prayers are with you, of course.
If she believes in a God, even of sorts, that's an opening in her heart for the Lord, and that's a start. It's not easy to have Faith, or even to begin to ask the questions that lead one to the Faith, but for many, the hardest part is admitting that there is, or even could be, something out there greater than themselves, and even greater than anything we can ever truly understand or explain. Before you experience the His Light, the thought of a being so immeasurably awesome can be terrifying. With everything going on in the world right now, and with trials in one's personal life, questions of faith can seem like one more big, heavy thing that weighs on your mind, and a lot of people don't want to deal with it, especially at a young age when so much of the world is already in question.
After I lost Faith when I was young, I know I found my way back to the Light through art, and I think art is a great way to reach out that won't feel like forcing anything on anybody; the Bible is the Word of God, and it's inherently religious, but plenty of secular people read and enjoy Christian authors who discuss Christian themes, and I feel they're a great way to reach out that's easy, accessible, and won't seem pushy. Anna Karenina is regarded as a masterpiece even by vocal atheists, as are the works of Flannery O'Connor. C.S. Lewis and Tolkein write entertaining fiction that is also quite literary and deals with Christian themes more indirectly through allegory. Some of Donne's poetry expresses Christian ideals beautifully, too. Eliot's "Ash Wednesday" is an excellent poem of Eliot's own conversion, and Coleridge's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" contains a quatrain I've always loved "He prayeth best, who loveth best/All things both great and small;/For the dear God who loveth us,/He made and loveth all." It's hard to tell yourself you aren't a Christian when nearly everyone you admire is a Christian and the viewpoints of theirs that are the most beautiful are those influenced by that. What makes the Lord of the Rings a good story is that it isn't a tale of good defeating evil in a battle of arms, but a story of good triumphing over evil because a couple ordinary, quotidian little folks who aren't great warriors or powerful wizards were able to resist the temptation of evil.
If she believes in a God, even of sorts, that's an opening in her heart for the Lord, and that's a start. It's not easy to have Faith, or even to begin to ask the questions that lead one to the Faith, but for many, the hardest part is admitting that there is, or even could be, something out there greater than themselves, and even greater than anything we can ever truly understand or explain. Before you experience the His Light, the thought of a being so immeasurably awesome can be terrifying. With everything going on in the world right now, and with trials in one's personal life, questions of faith can seem like one more big, heavy thing that weighs on your mind, and a lot of people don't want to deal with it, especially at a young age when so much of the world is already in question.
After I lost Faith when I was young, I know I found my way back to the Light through art, and I think art is a great way to reach out that won't feel like forcing anything on anybody; the Bible is the Word of God, and it's inherently religious, but plenty of secular people read and enjoy Christian authors who discuss Christian themes, and I feel they're a great way to reach out that's easy, accessible, and won't seem pushy. Anna Karenina is regarded as a masterpiece even by vocal atheists, as are the works of Flannery O'Connor. C.S. Lewis and Tolkein write entertaining fiction that is also quite literary and deals with Christian themes more indirectly through allegory. Some of Donne's poetry expresses Christian ideals beautifully, too. Eliot's "Ash Wednesday" is an excellent poem of Eliot's own conversion, and Coleridge's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" contains a quatrain I've always loved "He prayeth best, who loveth best/All things both great and small;/For the dear God who loveth us,/He made and loveth all." It's hard to tell yourself you aren't a Christian when nearly everyone you admire is a Christian and the viewpoints of theirs that are the most beautiful are those influenced by that. What makes the Lord of the Rings a good story is that it isn't a tale of good defeating evil in a battle of arms, but a story of good triumphing over evil because a couple ordinary, quotidian little folks who aren't great warriors or powerful wizards were able to resist the temptation of evil.
Invite her to church Paul. Be the best young christian man you know. Women absolutely love good strong christian men who hold good values .. Any girl who could get you would be fortunate. She will know that too. In time she may be attracted to the Jesus that lives in you. Step aside and let her have him. When you step back in, you will have the perfect girl .
MartinW brings up a good point. The Christians can promise kindness and respect, which are worth a lot in the long run. Inviting her to church-related social events is a good idea, too. It might not be as intimidating as coming to church, and it gives her a chance to take things slow and warm up gradually. If she's interested in going to church, though, by all means take her.
I quote this first because this is key.
I almost asked the OP early on if he truly believed this passage to mean he shouldn't date her. If you believe this, then I think the discussion should be over, you just need to let God help you put out the little flame for this girl from a relationship standpoint.
If you don't believe this, then we can debate all day long.
The problem here, is who is to say she won't later?
Who is to say she isn't putting on an act at the moment to net the OP? Not cursing around someone is a far step from accepting a faith. If she can accept his faith then, why hasn't she?
Is not the passage in Leviticus directly speaking of not yoking one "breed" with another? Two totally different animals? It didn't say don't yoke a strong ox with a weak ox. It said don't yoke an ox with an ass. One faith with another? I'm not sure if it helps your case.
This is of course up to interpretation but please, read the context in Corinthians, I think reading the context is abundantly clear:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.
I see nowhere that talks of JUDGING or "if she can accept it"... It says: DON'T DO IT.
Nobody said that sex outside of marriage is beyond forgiveness.
What's Romans 6 say of this?
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!
We have DIED to sin, we shouldn't be RULED BY it, it should not be our MASTER, even if we are forgiven from it.
My personal opinion of sex is while a quick tongue might lie, sex is something that can be avoided. Keep boundaries and you'll not have a problem with it. Don't snuggle up and get handsy during a romance movie on the couch at home alone, in other words.
By all means, since they are more strict than we'd like, we should throw them out.
Which is why mate-selection among women is just as poor as it is among men. In both cases, STRONG CHRISTIANS need to be chosen, else you create the problem you described above. This is compounded when marrying nonbelievers.
Very good point.
To put it bluntly: Satan is a very smart bastard.
If distancing yourself from this girl on a relationship messes up his life then he has other issues than sharing the gospel
It's also an extremely arrogant statement to say what God's will is in this situation, especially when his written will (Bible) is quite clear on the subject.
If she converts, who is to say that isn't an act? Who is to say a "Christian" isn't just putting on an act? The moment her behavior changes, he can leave the relationship. Until then, why not give her a chance? If he doesn't, not only does the relationship not have a chance, but it also sends her the message that Christians are judgmental to those outside the Faith.
I believe those are two separate passages. The first is Leviticus 19:19 (ου κατοχευσεις ετεροζυγω) says not to "hold down" your cattle under an "unequal yoke," which often translated as mating two breeds of animals (although the word used is "cattle," I suppose it could refer to livestock in general), when the derivatives indicate restraint more than breeding. To weigh either unequally in a yoke will cause only both to fall. The other passage is Deuteronomy, and says not to plow with two breeds of animal. To reference the first passage in a statement about interpersonal relationships, I think, warns of the dangers of an imbalance of power in the relationship. If either party has more power, the relationship can become pathologic and abusive (for example, when women were most often housewives, it was financially much more difficult for them to leave an abusive relationship). In a relationship between two Christians, true Christians, this danger is alleviated by both parties in accordance with the Word; in a relationship between a Christian and another, there is not the union of faith to surmount such trials. In a marriage between Christians (Strong Christians, as you later put it, is perhaps more apt), one can pull more weight in the relationship for a while without feeling resentful of the other, thanks to their understanding of the Faith, but this may not be as easy. Again, I'm saying that it's hard and it might not work, but he's not looking to get married in a week, and I think it might give him a chance. On both accounts of her faith and their relationship, he should obviously take things slowly, though.
Indeed, I misunderstood his phrasing; when he said the sin "sticks to you," I thought he meant that it could not be washed clean and forgiven, not that its psychological effects were lasting.
No, I'm saying that when taking the verse, it should be taken in context both of the speaker, and to whom he was speaking. The pronouncements to Corinth might not be the same ones the Lord would give to guide us, today; it's the principles behind them we should seek to use to guide us, and the pronouncements themselves when context makes them applicable. In France (and many other places), kissing a common way of greeting, and even kisses on the lips aren't necessarily sexual or even romantic, but the same isn't as true in America. So one might need to be more careful in America than in France to assure a kiss doesn't lead to sin.
Sure, my only point is that I don't think it's always better, or even always better when two Christians marry, for the husband to be the spiritual leader. I agree that an interfaith marriage is harder (I think I've said this, but if I haven't, my apologies, I meant to), but I don't think that means it's impossible to make it work or make it work without sin.
Absolutely it could be an act. That's why close examination/discussion over a period of time is essential to get a taste of the validity of it.
And how unfortunate for the OP if this act falls apart after marriage. This is why, even if she DOES profess faith, in my opinion you need to go into a second dating cycle in order to judge how real that profession really is.
If you believe and agree with me on this, then why do you suggest him enter into a relationship with a non Christian?
Yes, it's all about the intention behind it, certainly. The Bible even speaks of greeting each other with a holy kiss so I don't think anyone would argue against this.
The Bible does say not to be yoked with an unbeliever though, which does directly speak to something, regardless of culture.
There are more sexually lose cultures than America (believe it or not)... It doesn't make sex before marriage OK because of culture, it's a universal command, and I think that's what we see about yoking.
Except Paul speaks against it so it is sin...
Also please don't think I'm speaking of faith changes after marriage, I'm not.
This is exactly why marriage is a decision which should be undertaken very carefully and after really coming to know someone. He's not saying he's going to marry her, though, he's saying he's interested in dating her. There's no better way for one to understand and see how another really feels and thinks than by becoming closer to him or her. He certainly shouldn't go propose to her straight away, and I don't think that's ever been on the table. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with giving it a shot. Almost by definition, by the time a couple is ready for marriage, they should know enough of one another to answer any questions of this sort, yet, there's no way for them to simply know the answers without first learning them. Saying he shouldn't date someone without knowing all these answers is like saying one should never enroll in a course unless one already knows and fully understands the material. You shouldn't take the test until you've studied and learned the material, sure, but taking the course is the way to learn it. As I said, if the relationship isn't working as he learns these answers, then he can end it there, but there's no way for him to know them before he begins the process of learning them.
Well, I'm not saying that it can't work, I'm saying that such a relationship is harder. Not everything in the world, and certainly not everything worth doing, is easy. What's important is to take things slow enough to tell if it won't work before it's absolutely too late.
Well, exactly, the Bible speaks of greeting one another with a Holy kiss, but Corinthians literally uses the phrase that it is better for a man not to touch a woman. There's nothing wrong with greeting someone with a kiss if it is a Holy one, but there is a problem if greeting with a kiss might tempt one towards sin. The Lord instructs specifically according to our circumstances, so that within those circumstances, we can best obey the general principles of His Word. He does not say for a man and woman not to touch as a universal command, Paul merely tells the Corinthians that, given their culture at the time, this was the best way for them to avoid sinfulness.
It says not to be "unequally" (or "unevenly," generally in manners which are not equivalent) yoked with an unbeliever. To be yoked equally to one, so that there is no imbalance of power and the unbeliever neither controls the believer and pulls the believer away from Him, nor that the believer controls the unbeliever and through forcefulness gives the unbeliever a distaste for Him and leads the unbeliever further still from Him. If they are yoked evenly, so that neither is burdened or controlled by the other, however, I think such a relationship is acceptable and can succeed. I don't think "unequally" would have been included in Paul's original writing if it were not important.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
The only problem I see with marrying someone of a different faith is determining how to raise children, If you do not plan to have children, it is just not that big of a deal. What many people never talk about is the fact that spouses sometimes change religions after the wedding vows. I joined the Catholic Church and my wife was raised to be anticatholic. It took her three years to discover the richness of the Catholic faith and to decide to join.
Leviticus 19:19 (ου κατοχευσεις ετεροζυγω)
what is this OT quote doing in Greek .... throwing away any semblance of the Word made flesh having to do with Torah, right down to the language you read it in now ?
" or even always better when two Christians marry, for the husband to be the spiritual leader."
1Kings 28:8
So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed [them] with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that [were] in his city, dwelling with Naboth.
Here we have a WOMAN taking charge in a relationship --- actually taking the KING'S SEAL and signing an order to PUT AN INNOCENT MAN TO DEATH.
I understand you are not a king --- but a clearer example cannot be found .... SHE USURPED THE KING'S AUTHORITY
Now, I hope noone here ever has to worry about their wife running behind their back to commit murder (or conspiracy as we see in this verse) --- but this principle stands, she TOOK CHARGE IN THIS RELATIONSHIP
People think this is archaic ... what about the middle east tradition that makes a woman walk 2 steps behind her husband ?
Is this right ?
No, but they are acting out a spiritual principle in the physical world .....
what is this OT quote doing in Greek .... throwing away any semblance of the Word made flesh having to do with Torah, right down to the language you read it in now ?
" or even always better when two Christians marry, for the husband to be the spiritual leader."
1Kings 28:8
So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed [them] with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that [were] in his city, dwelling with Naboth.
Here we have a WOMAN taking charge in a relationship --- actually taking the KING'S SEAL and signing an order to PUT AN INNOCENT MAN TO DEATH.
I understand you are not a king --- but a clearer example cannot be found .... SHE USURPED THE KING'S AUTHORITY
Now, I hope noone here ever has to worry about their wife running behind their back to commit murder (or conspiracy as we see in this verse) --- but this principle stands, she TOOK CHARGE IN THIS RELATIONSHIP
People think this is archaic ... what about the middle east tradition that makes a woman walk 2 steps behind her husband ?
Is this right ?
No, but they are acting out a spiritual principle in the physical world .....
I quoted the classical Greek translation of the OT because the NT was originally in Greek; I'm noting that word Paul uses in the cited NT passage also occurs in the classical Greek translation of of the old testament, and since it's an unusual word, and the passages are quite similar, it seems likely that Paul's lettre refers to that OT passage, so I would base my interpretation of his passage on that passage. Especially given that it was written for an audience who mostly spoke Greek but of whom few would have spoken Hebrew.
I'm not sure I follow. I don't see how one woman can be used as an example for all women, for one thing. Secondly, this isn't an example of what I said, at all, either; a Christian would not having a man wrongfully put to death. Given that this is from the OT, neither she nor Ahab could have been Christians, anyhow, but you can't even really argue she was acting with Christian principles. Her actions were evil, and unless you are claiming that all women, even the most devout and virtuous Christians, will necessarily turn wicked and even outright murderous when given the chance, I don't see how it relates to me saying that a Christian woman can do a fine job as the spiritual leader of a household.
Why can't you do that with friendship? I guess your definition of dating is different than mine, which might be where we will disagree.
In my opinion what you are describing (getting to know her, spending time, etc) is already a description of FRIENDSHIP.
DATING, is for purpose of marriage.
If you spend time with another girl and she gets upset... That's going beyond friendship.
I still 100% disagree with this. It's found nowhere in this passage, nor within its context, Paul is clear and says DON'T DO IT.
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.
<drop to 7:1>
Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
I think Paul even gives you the reason for these commandments. You see nothing about "power" or "control", he speaks of contamination and interference with the holiness and reverence of God should you be yoked with an unbeliever. IE... It's not in God's plan of design.
Of course I'm coming at this with a Once-Saved-Always-Saved bias but... A true Christian wouldn't change their religions.
Lying and deceit contrary to God's wishes... Do you really think this is a good example for CHRISTIANS?
Honestly, these days, I'm not sure just what to make of "dating" anymore. I think most of the time, it's more the sexual component and the element of commitment that differentiate it, but if you're not planning on having sex, both of those get a lot more blurry; I don't think most girls (maybe I've just been fortunate with the ones I've known) think it's "cheating" just to have other friends-who-are-girls. I guess I just think of it as a close friendship with a different kind of love, but I think the latter part kind of evolves over the relationship. I guess I see dating as a little less "serious" (that's not quite the right word, but I'm frazzled from finals and can't come up with a better one off the top of my head) than you do. What I mean to say is that if he wants to go on "dates" with her, and not with other girls, I think that's a good way to get to know her. I think it's hard to draw the line, exactly, between dating and friendship, and it's up for the people involved to define for themselves. Paul seems level-headed and mature, I'm sure he'll make the right choice for her and himself -- as a friend or a boyfriend, whichever word he chooses, I'm sure he knows to act righteously and avoid sin.
Well, simply put, we're not just reading the passages differently, we're reading different passages. I'm taking my interpretation from the passage in classical Greek, and yours is from an English version. So, if you're reading, say, the New International Version, you aren't going to find what I'm talking about anywhere in the text, because it's not anywhere in the text you're reading. I don't mean this to say that your belief, or your text, is wrong, merely to say that perhaps the differences in the former are explained by differences in the latter.
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