Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Johann]

LOL...I don't think you are seeing that faith is in the present tense. It's faith IS not faith will be.

Wrong again--
Transliteration: Estin
Morphology: V-PIA-3S
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular

Hebrews 11:1 (LEB)
"Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen."

Textus Receptus (TR)
"ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων."

Greek Breakdown with Morphology and Syntax
ἔστιν δὲ πίστις:

ἔστιν (estin) – Verb, present, indicative, active, 3rd person singular: "is"
δὲ (de) – Conjunction: "now" or "but"
πίστις (pistis) – Noun, nominative, singular, feminine: "faith"
Translation: "Now faith is"
ἐλπιζομένων:

ἐλπιζομένων (elpizomenon) – Participle, present, middle/passive, genitive, plural, neuter: "of things hoped for"
Translation: "the realization of things hoped for"
ὑπόστασις:

ὑπόστασις (hypostasis) – Noun, nominative, singular, feminine: "substance" or "realization"
Translation: "the substance" or "the realization"
πραγμάτων:

πραγμάτων (pragmaton) – Noun, genitive, plural, neuter: "of things"
Translation: "of things"
ἔλεγχος:

ἔλεγχος (elenchos) – Noun, nominative, singular, masculine: "evidence" or "proof"
Translation: "the evidence" or "the proof"
οὐ βλεπομένων:

οὐ (ou) – Particle: "not"
βλεπομένων (blepomenon) – Participle, present, middle/passive, genitive, plural, neuter: "seen"
Translation: "of things not seen"
Detailed Breakdown with Translation
Now faith (πίστις):

The subject of the sentence is "faith" (πίστις), which is described as both a substance (realization) and evidence (proof).
is the substance (ὑπόστασις) of things hoped for (ἐλπιζομένων):

"ὑπόστασις" (hypostasis) can be understood as "substance," "assurance," or "realization." It implies a foundation or confidence.
"ἐλπιζομένων" (elpizomenon) refers to "things hoped for," indicating the objects of hope or expectations.
the evidence (ἔλεγχος) of things not seen (πραγμάτων οὐ βλεπομένων):

"ἔλεγχος" (elenchos) means "evidence" or "proof," suggesting a conviction or a means of convincing.
"πραγμάτων οὐ βλεπομένων" (pragmaton ou blepomenon) refers to "things not seen," indicating that faith provides proof of realities that are not visible to the physical eye.
Lexham English Bible (LEB) Translation
The LEB translates this verse as: "Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen."

Comparative Translation (TR and LEB)
TR: "ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων."
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
LEB: "Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen."
Conclusion
The analysis reveals that both the TR and the LEB convey the idea that faith is a confident assurance or realization of future hopes and an inward conviction of unseen realities. The Greek terms used in the Textus Receptus (such as ὑπόστασις for "substance" or "realization" and ἔλεγχος for "evidence" or "proof") highlight the substantive and evidentiary nature of faith. This detailed breakdown demonstrates that faith, according to Hebrews 11:1, provides a firm foundation and convincing proof of spiritual realities that are beyond physical perception.

1) "Now faith is," (estindepistis)"Now (moreover) faith is or (exists) as,” first a spiritual gift from God, without acceptance and use of which no person can be saved, except by voluntarily accepting, as a sinner, this gift from God and placing it in Jesus Christ to save him, Eph_2:8-9; Joh_1:11-12; 1Co_13:13.

2) "The substance of things hoped for," (elpizomenon hupostasis) "Reality (the undergirding) of things being hoped," It is the pier or foundation of things for which one hopes in this life, Heb_6:19-20. For hope that anchors the soul must be based on faith in Jesus Christ; Thus faith is the sustaining, undergirding substance of all Christian hope, without which no one can please God, Heb_11:6; Rom_5:5.

3) "The evidence of things not seen," (pragmaton legchos ou blepomenon) "And it exists (as) proof of pragmatic or practical things not being seen," at this moment - none-the-less real, however 2Co_4:17-18; 1Co_2:9; Joh_14:1-3; 2Co_5:1; 1Jn_3:1-3. God has many things undreamt awaiting those who thru faith know and love him, Rev_5:9-10.


Looks like you are against all the major core tenets we as believers hold dear and believe.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Wrong again--
Transliteration: Estin
Morphology: V-PIA-3S
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular

Hebrews 11:1 (LEB)
"Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen."

Textus Receptus (TR)
"ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων."

Greek Breakdown with Morphology and Syntax
ἔστιν δὲ πίστις:

ἔστιν (estin) – Verb, present, indicative, active, 3rd person singular: "is"
δὲ (de) – Conjunction: "now" or "but"
πίστις (pistis) – Noun, nominative, singular, feminine: "faith"
Translation: "Now faith is"
ἐλπιζομένων:

ἐλπιζομένων (elpizomenon) – Participle, present, middle/passive, genitive, plural, neuter: "of things hoped for"
Translation: "the realization of things hoped for"
ὑπόστασις:

ὑπόστασις (hypostasis) – Noun, nominative, singular, feminine: "substance" or "realization"
Translation: "the substance" or "the realization"
πραγμάτων:

πραγμάτων (pragmaton) – Noun, genitive, plural, neuter: "of things"
Translation: "of things"
ἔλεγχος:

ἔλεγχος (elenchos) – Noun, nominative, singular, masculine: "evidence" or "proof"
Translation: "the evidence" or "the proof"
οὐ βλεπομένων:

οὐ (ou) – Particle: "not"
βλεπομένων (blepomenon) – Participle, present, middle/passive, genitive, plural, neuter: "seen"
Translation: "of things not seen"
Detailed Breakdown with Translation
Now faith (πίστις):

The subject of the sentence is "faith" (πίστις), which is described as both a substance (realization) and evidence (proof).
is the substance (ὑπόστασις) of things hoped for (ἐλπιζομένων):

"ὑπόστασις" (hypostasis) can be understood as "substance," "assurance," or "realization." It implies a foundation or confidence.
"ἐλπιζομένων" (elpizomenon) refers to "things hoped for," indicating the objects of hope or expectations.
the evidence (ἔλεγχος) of things not seen (πραγμάτων οὐ βλεπομένων):

"ἔλεγχος" (elenchos) means "evidence" or "proof," suggesting a conviction or a means of convincing.
"πραγμάτων οὐ βλεπομένων" (pragmaton ou blepomenon) refers to "things not seen," indicating that faith provides proof of realities that are not visible to the physical eye.
Lexham English Bible (LEB) Translation
The LEB translates this verse as: "Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen."

Comparative Translation (TR and LEB)
TR: "ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων."
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
LEB: "Now faith is the realization of what is hoped for, the proof of things not seen."
Conclusion
The analysis reveals that both the TR and the LEB convey the idea that faith is a confident assurance or realization of future hopes and an inward conviction of unseen realities. The Greek terms used in the Textus Receptus (such as ὑπόστασις for "substance" or "realization" and ἔλεγχος for "evidence" or "proof") highlight the substantive and evidentiary nature of faith. This detailed breakdown demonstrates that faith, according to Hebrews 11:1, provides a firm foundation and convincing proof of spiritual realities that are beyond physical perception.

1) "Now faith is," (estindepistis)"Now (moreover) faith is or (exists) as,” first a spiritual gift from God, without acceptance and use of which no person can be saved, except by voluntarily accepting, as a sinner, this gift from God and placing it in Jesus Christ to save him, Eph_2:8-9; Joh_1:11-12; 1Co_13:13.

2) "The substance of things hoped for," (elpizomenon hupostasis) "Reality (the undergirding) of things being hoped," It is the pier or foundation of things for which one hopes in this life, Heb_6:19-20. For hope that anchors the soul must be based on faith in Jesus Christ; Thus faith is the sustaining, undergirding substance of all Christian hope, without which no one can please God, Heb_11:6; Rom_5:5.

3) "The evidence of things not seen," (pragmaton legchos ou blepomenon) "And it exists (as) proof of pragmatic or practical things not being seen," at this moment - none-the-less real, however 2Co_4:17-18; 1Co_2:9; Joh_14:1-3; 2Co_5:1; 1Jn_3:1-3. God has many things undreamt awaiting those who thru faith know and love him, Rev_5:9-10.


Looks like you are against all the major core tenets we as believers hold dear and believe.
J.

Reformists you mean. Most believers do not hold to what you hold so dear. It's better to hold the Lord dear...not tenets. Getting comfort from a set of beliefs misses the point. We tend to be satisfied with things that the Lord does not approve of. That's why Paul says...I am sold under sin. (It's so funny that no one claims THAT part of Paul's testimony. Just the good stuff...no price to pay, just the benefits)

The whole reformist viewpoint is "status without merit". And this assumes that we will not be judged righteously according to actual merit...but that He cares about our claims to that merit. That's what counts for reformists. Claim it and God is forced to back that up.

 

[Johann]

It's better to hold the Lord dear..

And I do hold to the Lord Christ Jesus, sealed with the Holy Spirit-yet even THAT is not good enough according to you and your Catholic beliefs.
What MORE do you want?! Experiences, divine visitations-probably blabbering in glossalia?

ALL believers hold to what I believe is the D'varim emes and don't be so quick to dismiss the Reformers.

You are really exposing yourself!

 

[Lizbeth]

LOL...I don't think you are seeing that faith is in the present tense. It's faith IS not faith will be. And the fact that we receive NOW what we once hoped for (past tense.) In your reading the hoped for is future tense...but it is past tense. Once you have faith you don't need to hope for what you have now received...hoped for in the past.


I think God wants me in the lower walk ....I think I'm more useful to Him to tell my fellow farm team players about the major leagues....even though so few believe there is anything higher than what they have already experienced. Yes a little humility would be good from these.


That's not true. The power of sin was not only attributed to us...we inherited it. It's not like we have to admit we are sinners when we are not. Your whole scheme is based on unreality.

Adam put mankind in the bondage of sin. Jesus came to liberate us from that bondage to restore the holy walk that Adam had squandered due to disobedience.


False again. We are only as righteous as we DO. Walking in God's grace makes us walk as Jesus walked...hence it doesn't take an active religious imagination to claim that God's righteousness is covering us. The world sees it. That's our witness to the risen Lord.


Incoherent.

Again with the after-life. The gospel is NOT about an after life...but an eternal life right now. Afterward we are ALL ONLY judged by what we have done in the body....no faith or beliefs work then. Read the bible.

Call me whatever you want, farm team, little leaguer or whatever.....and you don't have to listen to anything I say....but I think you might consider whether you are making the same mistake that forms "denominations". Taking one 'revelation' and making a ministry out of that....instead of preaching and building up the whole body in the whole gospel and making Jesus the centre of their ministry. Baptists make much of baptism and ignore the Holy Spirit....Pentecostals make much of Holy Spirit 'activity' and dont' think baptism is terribly important and also these days seem to ignore other aspects of following the Lord and living a consecrated life. Seventh Day Adventists put Saturday worship services and dietary restrictions at the centre of their denomination. Etc. And now should we add the Church of the Higher Walk to the pantheon of denominations...?

The apostle wrote that there is to be NO SCHISM in the body. All the members of the Body are needful......greater, lesser, babes or grown ups and grandpappies and everyone in between.

 

[Episkopos]

And I do hold to the Lord Christ Jesus, sealed with the Holy Spirit-yet even THAT is not good enough according to you and your Catholic beliefs.
What MORE do you want?! Experiences, divine visitations-probably blabbering in glossalia?

ALL believers hold to what I believe is the D'varim emes and don't be so quick to dismiss the Reformers.

You are really exposing yourself!

I hope I am exposing myself. I come to the light because I'm speaking the truth. And what is so wrong with Catholic beliefs?...it's the traditions that are suspect, not the old paths. The reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater. But apostolic doctrines don't begin in the 16th century as you think. No, the great delusions came about during the "enlightenment" period...very humanistic...like the reformers themselves, naming and claiming things from the bible that suits their own aspirations. Without the printing press and mass propaganda the reformist ideologies would not have caught on. It's like being a Mormon who believes there was no truth until the 19th century. I see reformists the same way I see Mormons...denying apostolic truth. And to follow a man? Man-made doctrines? Whether its Martin Luther or Joseph Smith? Utter foolishness in my view.

How can people be so gullible is beyond me. I think more thought has to go into it.

You disparage spiritual gifts?...again throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Read the bible. Read Acts. My testimony means nothing to you? Fine. I don't care in the least. But ignoring the plain testimonies found in the bible? Well, we see the pattern of unbelief.

 

[Episkopos]

Does having correct beliefs trump obedience to God in the reformists mindset? Obedience is seen as "works" salvation...if we consider that God rejects those who disobey Him.

Why all the extra-biblical doctrines? Why hold to tenets that go directly against the biblical narrative in order to support more recent upstart "reformers"?

Can the bible be nullified where that is necessary in order to support doctrines that have taken on a populist agenda? Humanism has invaded the whole church apparatus...changing the meaning of the bible to suit the particular tastes of a bourgeois society. For these it's give the people what they want...eternal security....or at least a semblance of it...or risk them going to a different franchise church. It's a market economy, but no one seems to have consulted God about it.

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off. Hos. 8:4

 

[Behold]

..I am sold under sin. (It's so funny that no one claims THAT part of Paul's testimony. Just the good stuff...

Paul is not teaching that this is his current Christianity.
He's teaching that this is the initial condition of everyone, including Himself, BECAUSE....this is what the Fall of Adam created, and the Law and Commandments Revealed.

And then Paul continues to teach, and explain that the Righteousness of God that is manifested as Jesus who came to rescue us, from that place where we are all judged by the Law.......has come, and all who will give God their Faith in Christ will be forgiven all their Sin, and restored into eternal Fellowship with God, which is to become "Born again" as "THE Righteousness of God in Christ".

This is "the Gift of Salvation" that is "The Gift of Righteousness", and all who are born again possess this Eternal Gift that is the "Gift of Eternal Life".

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

LOL...I don't think you are seeing that faith is in the present tense

God gave me a gift 33 years ago. I had faith then and now. Hope is part n of faith, it's always present.

And the fact that we receive NOW what we once hoped for (past tense.)

Prayers answered are blessings, the consequence and reward of faith.

We are only as righteous as we DO

You seem to mix Christ's righteous with human works. Our works, if at all good, are the result of the Holy Spirit working through us. "He" has prepared goodbwirks for us to do. Those are tested with fire andthe only works that pass on. All our other futile works will burn.

Incoherent

That was a misspelling. I meant to say that this covering of sins, was a concept under the Old Covenant. The washing of sins is not a covering but a perminent deletion of sins - past, present and future btw.

The gospel is NOT about an after life...but an eternal life right now

The Good news is that we are changed from death to life, a life that we experience NOW AND FOR ETERNITY.

YOU NEED TO BE BAPTIZED NOT ONLY IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON BUT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TOO.
This is where the lack of discernment.
comes from!
Denying that He is not a Person is tantamount to blaspeming Him. He is The Comforter, The Helper, He loves us, glorifies Christ, gives us Truth, guides us, convicts us of sin, justifies us, sanctifies us, edifices us, gives us gifts, and takes up residence in those who believe He exists.
You seemed to have missed Him on your journey, a fork in the road you took to this higher walk and all along, He has been saying, I'm right here - the Father and the Son sent me! He came down to us, where we are.
You need to be prayed over with hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit.
Until then, you should not try teaching and misleading anyone. This Binitarian theology has really led you astray, isolated ... trying to seduce others to join you. They won't.m stay if they do. People do follow false teachers and get off the path for a while. Since Jesus is the Author of our faith, He insists that we be baptized in and with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

God gave me a gift 33 years ago. I had faith then and now. Hope is part n of faith, it's always present.

Prayers answered are blessings, the consequence and reward of faith.

You seem to mix Christ's righteous with human works. Our works, if at all good, are the result of the Holy Spirit working through us. "He" has prepared goodbwirks for us to do. Those are tested with fire andthe only works that pass on. All our other futile works will burn.

That was a misspelling. I meant to say that this covering of sins, was a concept under the Old Covenant. The washing of sins is not a covering but a perminent deletion of sins - past, present and future btw.

The Good news is that we are changed from death to life, a life that we experience NOW AND FOR ETERNITY.

YOU NEED TO BE BAPTIZED NOT ONLY IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON BUT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TOO.
This is where the lack of discernment.
comes from!
Denying that He is not a Person is tantamount to blaspeming Him. He is The Comforter, The Helper, He loves us, glorifies Christ, gives us Truth, guides us, convicts us of sin, justifies us, sanctifies us, edifices us, gives us gifts, and takes up residence in those who believe He exists.
You seemed to have missed Him on your journey, a fork in the road you took to this higher walk and all along, He has been saying, I'm right here - the Father and the Son sent me! He came down to us, where we are.
You need to be prayed over with hands laid on you to receive the Holy Spirit.
Until then, you should not try teaching and misleading anyone. This Binitarian theology has really led you astray, isolated ... trying to seduce others to join you. They won't.m stay if they do. People do follow false teachers and get off the path for a while. Since Jesus is the Author of our faith, He insists that we be baptized in and with the Holy Spirit.

This is as false as can be. God is Spirit. His Spirit is not a separate person, neither does it have a name. God pours His Spirit out....and we are the vessels that are filled. Your doctrine is man-taught....not biblical at all.

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

In the NT we see people baptized in the POWER of the Spirit, not in the name of the Spirit. People have forsaken the power of the Spirit to control people by reducing God's Spirit to a name for control of the church.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is as false as can be. God is Spirit. His Spirit is not a separate person, neither does it have a name. God pours His Spirit out....and we are the vessels that are filled. Your doctrine is man-taught....not biblical at all.

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

In the NT we see people baptized in the POWER of the Spirit, not in the name of the Spirit. People have forsaken the power of the Spirit to control people by reducing God's Spirit to a name for control of the church.

You cannot be irreverent or disrespectful to an impersonal power/ force. You can only be irreverent or disrespectful to a person, and ultimately the most detrimental kind would be towards God.

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.” Matt. 12:31

Gotta go ...adios.

 

[Episkopos]

You cannot be irreverent or disrespectful to an impersonal power/ force. You can only be irreverent or disrespectful to a person, and ultimately the most detrimental kind would be towards God.

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.” Matt. 12:31

Gotta go ...adios.

The Holy Spirit is a part of God. Like His hand. It's still God acting...in a personal way in His holy presence.

Look at this...

“By stretching forth Your hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.” Acts 4:30

God has a hand? God is Spirit. God's Spirit is Him in action.

Blasphemy against God's Spirit means you are coming directly against the presence of God...not just disparaging God as a concept.

Holiness is about presence. Even non-believers admit to being humbled and in awe in God's presence. It takes a lot of religious certainty, and indoctrination to say that God's presence is evil...

Fearing God is not the same as fear of the unknown.

The Jews in their 2 thousand years of being God's people NEVER thought for a moment that God's Spirit was a separate Person from Him. That's preposterous. As in....I will pour out MY Spirit on all flesh. Not...I will send another Person. Actually that other Person is His Son, Jesus.

Father and Son united in One Spirit. ECHAD.

There is only One Holy Spirit in two Persons...Father and Son.

Look at this...

John 10:30 I and my Father are one. (Echad)
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

That's the Shema from Deut. 6:4.... Hear O Israel, The Lord (Yahweh) your God (and) the Lord (Yahweh) ARE One (Echad)! One what? ONE Spirit. Yahweh is One Spirit...in two Persons.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4: 4-6

And this...

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23

How can the Father and the Son make their abode in a human being? By the Spirit. God is Spirit.

What of the Spirit of Christ? Is that a separate Person from Jesus? What of the Spirit of God the Father? If someone doesn't understand the nature of the duality in ELOHIM (meaning DOUBLE) then one has to concede 5 separate Persons...not 3. If the Spirit is a separate Person then we have to tally up the possible persons.

The Father
The Spirit of God
Jesus Christ
The Spirit of Christ
The Holy Spirit

=5


All the early Christians were Binatarian...including Paul. Note what He says about spirit.

For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Cor. 2:11

Here Paul is not saying that the spirit in a man is a separate person from him. Quite the opposite. We are human and we HAVE a spirit...our spirit. Even so God IS Spirit and He has an active presence through HIS Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul is not teaching that this is his current Christianity.
He's teaching that this is the initial condition of everyone, including Himself, BECAUSE....this is what the Fall of Adam created, and the Law and Commandments Revealed.

And then Paul continues to teach, and explain that the Righteousness of God that is manifested as Jesus who came to rescue us, from that place where we are all judged by the Law.......has come, and all who will give God their Faith in Christ will be forgiven all their Sin, and restored into eternal Fellowship with God, which is to become "Born again" as "THE Righteousness of God in Christ".

This is "the Gift of Salvation" that is "The Gift of Righteousness", and all who are born again possess this Eternal Gift that is the "Gift of Eternal Life".

Not biblical at all. Jesus doesn't say..."unless you are born again you cannot be as righteous as God". Preposterous.

No, what Jesus says is that through the new birth we have ACCESS into the kingdom of God. Spirit allows us to do things in the Spirit. We may enter in and see what is spiritual in nature through being given new spiritual faculties to SEE what others can't.

As to a person being COVERED by God's Spirit. That involves a further going to God to enter INTO Christ. As such we are then covered by God's righteousness. Being HIS righteousness to the world as Jesus was. Being a light in the world..an eternal light. Being IN Him we are as He is in this world...walking as He walked. Loving as He loves. Through Him, in Him and with Him...

We are to put on...Christ, the New Man, the full armour of God, the armour of light....etc. All of these are saying the same thing. All by the righteous hand of God.

 

[Behold]

Not biblical at all. Jesus doesn't say..."unless you are born again you cannot be as righteous as God".

I didnt say that Jesus said that...
So, you are inventing what isn't there, once again.

Here is what Jesus said..

"You must be born again".........and He said this because if the spirit is not born again, as a 'new creation", then this means the Person has not become a CHRISTian.. It means they are not forgiven, and they are not joined spiritually to God and Christ.

This is why Jesus said, """"you MUST be born again".... (Spiritually).

 

[Johann]

The Holy Spirit is a part of God. Like His hand. It's still God acting...in a personal way in His holy presence.

19,716 "likes" from a man that makes no sense at all.

The assertion that all early Christians, including Paul, were Binitarian requires careful consideration and analysis of historical and theological evidence from the first-century context. Binitarianism generally refers to a belief in two distinct divine entities within the Godhead, typically God the Father and the pre-incarnate Christ (the Logos or Word).

Paul's View of the Spirit
Paul's writings in the New Testament provide insight into his theological understanding, particularly regarding the Holy Spirit:

Triadic Formulae: Paul often uses triadic formulae that include references to God the Father, Jesus Christ (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, indicating a recognition of the Spirit as a distinct entity within the Godhead. For example:

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV): "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
These formulations suggest Paul's understanding of the Spirit's divine nature and role alongside the Father and Son.

Work of the Spirit: Paul attributes various works and manifestations to the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11: Paul discusses the gifts of the Spirit, emphasizing their diverse manifestations within the body of Christ.
Romans 8:9-11: Paul teaches about the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, identifying the Spirit as the source of new life and transformation.

Personal Language: Paul uses personal language when referring to the Spirit, indicating the Spirit's agency and interaction with believers:

Romans 8:26-27: Paul describes the Spirit as interceding for believers and aiding in their prayers.

Galatians 4:6: Paul speaks of the Spirit as crying out "Abba, Father," indicating an intimate relationship between believers and God through the Spirit.

Early Christian Views on Binitarianism
Development of Doctrine: Early Christian views on the Trinity and the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit evolved over time. While the New Testament provides glimpses of Trinitarian concepts, the formal articulation and development of Trinitarian theology occurred in the post-New Testament period.

Diversity of Beliefs: Early Christian communities exhibited diverse beliefs and understandings of Christology and pneumatology (doctrine of the Holy Spirit). Some emphasized the divinity of Christ and the Spirit alongside the Father (proto-Trinitarianism), while others focused more on monotheism and the distinct roles of each person within the Godhead.


While Paul's writings demonstrate a robust theology of the Holy Spirit as a divine entity and active agent in the Christian life, the assertion that all early Christians were Binitarian, including Paul, oversimplifies the complexity of early Christian beliefs and development of Trinitarian theology.

Paul's understanding of the Spirit as divine and his recognition of the Spirit's role alongside the Father and Son laid foundational principles for later Trinitarian formulations. However, the full Trinitarian doctrine, articulating the equality and co-eternity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, developed more explicitly in the subsequent centuries of Christian theology. Therefore, while Paul's theology includes a high view of the Spirit's divinity and role, it should be understood within the broader context of early Christian diversity and theological development.

Resources in Defense of Trinitarianism

Here is why I think you might be an Eastern Catholic.
Eastern Catholics are a group of autonomous and self-governing churches within the Catholic Church that maintain their own distinct liturgical, theological, spiritual, and canonical traditions. They are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) and acknowledge his primacy, while also preserving their own unique heritage that traces back to the early Christian traditions of Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia.

Beliefs and Practices of Eastern Catholics
Liturgical Diversity:

Eastern Rites: Eastern Catholics follow various liturgical rites, such as the Byzantine, Alexandrian (Coptic), Syriac, Armenian, and others. Each rite has its own rich liturgical prayers, hymns, rituals, and calendar of feasts.
Iconography: Iconography plays a significant role in Eastern Catholic worship, reflecting theological teachings and spiritual truths through sacred art.
Theology and Spirituality:

Mystical Theology: Eastern Catholic theology emphasizes the mystical experience of God, often through practices such as hesychasm (contemplative prayer) in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Incarnational Theology: There is a strong emphasis on the mystery of the Incarnation and theosis (divinization), where humanity is called to participate in the divine life through union with Christ.

Sacraments and Sacramentals:

Seven Sacraments: Like the Latin (Western) tradition, Eastern Catholics recognize the seven sacraments, but the rites and liturgical expressions vary significantly.

Blessings and Prayers: Eastern Catholics have specific blessings, prayers, and sacramentals that are integral to their spiritual life and communal worship.
Authority and Governance:

Autonomous Churches: Eastern Catholic churches are autonomous in governance, led by their own patriarchs, major archbishops, or bishops. They govern themselves according to their particular traditions and canonical norms.

Communion with Rome: While they maintain their autonomy, Eastern Catholics recognize the Pope as the spiritual leader and symbol of unity for the universal Church.
Ecumenical Relations:

Eastern Catholics often play a significant role in ecumenical dialogue, particularly with Eastern Orthodox churches due to their shared theological and liturgical heritage.
Examples of Eastern Catholic Churches
Byzantine Catholics: These include churches such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Melkite Greek Catholic Church, Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, and others following the Byzantine Rite.

Oriental Catholics: These include churches such as the Coptic Catholic Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Armenian Catholic Church, and others following ancient Oriental Rites.

Eastern Catholics represent a vibrant expression of Catholicism rooted in the diverse traditions of Eastern Christianity. They contribute to the richness and diversity of the universal Church while maintaining their own distinct cultural, liturgical, and theological heritage. Their beliefs and practices reflect a deep commitment to the unity of faith with Rome and the preservation of their ancient Christian traditions.

You may correct me if I'm wrong here-but I don't think so.

J.

 

[Johann]

19,716 "likes" from a man that makes no sense at all.

The assertion that all early Christians, including Paul, were Binitarian requires careful consideration and analysis of historical and theological evidence from the first-century context. Binitarianism generally refers to a belief in two distinct divine entities within the Godhead, typically God the Father and the pre-incarnate Christ (the Logos or Word).

Paul's View of the Spirit
Paul's writings in the New Testament provide insight into his theological understanding, particularly regarding the Holy Spirit:

Triadic Formulae: Paul often uses triadic formulae that include references to God the Father, Jesus Christ (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, indicating a recognition of the Spirit as a distinct entity within the Godhead. For example:

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV): "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
These formulations suggest Paul's understanding of the Spirit's divine nature and role alongside the Father and Son.

Work of the Spirit: Paul attributes various works and manifestations to the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11: Paul discusses the gifts of the Spirit, emphasizing their diverse manifestations within the body of Christ.
Romans 8:9-11: Paul teaches about the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, identifying the Spirit as the source of new life and transformation.

Personal Language: Paul uses personal language when referring to the Spirit, indicating the Spirit's agency and interaction with believers:

Romans 8:26-27: Paul describes the Spirit as interceding for believers and aiding in their prayers.

Galatians 4:6: Paul speaks of the Spirit as crying out "Abba, Father," indicating an intimate relationship between believers and God through the Spirit.

Early Christian Views on Binitarianism
Development of Doctrine: Early Christian views on the Trinity and the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit evolved over time. While the New Testament provides glimpses of Trinitarian concepts, the formal articulation and development of Trinitarian theology occurred in the post-New Testament period.

Diversity of Beliefs: Early Christian communities exhibited diverse beliefs and understandings of Christology and pneumatology (doctrine of the Holy Spirit). Some emphasized the divinity of Christ and the Spirit alongside the Father (proto-Trinitarianism), while others focused more on monotheism and the distinct roles of each person within the Godhead.


While Paul's writings demonstrate a robust theology of the Holy Spirit as a divine entity and active agent in the Christian life, the assertion that all early Christians were Binitarian, including Paul, oversimplifies the complexity of early Christian beliefs and development of Trinitarian theology.

Paul's understanding of the Spirit as divine and his recognition of the Spirit's role alongside the Father and Son laid foundational principles for later Trinitarian formulations. However, the full Trinitarian doctrine, articulating the equality and co-eternity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, developed more explicitly in the subsequent centuries of Christian theology. Therefore, while Paul's theology includes a high view of the Spirit's divinity and role, it should be understood within the broader context of early Christian diversity and theological development.

Resources in Defense of Trinitarianism

Here is why I think you might be an Eastern Catholic.
Eastern Catholics are a group of autonomous and self-governing churches within the Catholic Church that maintain their own distinct liturgical, theological, spiritual, and canonical traditions. They are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) and acknowledge his primacy, while also preserving their own unique heritage that traces back to the early Christian traditions of Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia.

Beliefs and Practices of Eastern Catholics
Liturgical Diversity:

Eastern Rites: Eastern Catholics follow various liturgical rites, such as the Byzantine, Alexandrian (Coptic), Syriac, Armenian, and others. Each rite has its own rich liturgical prayers, hymns, rituals, and calendar of feasts.
Iconography: Iconography plays a significant role in Eastern Catholic worship, reflecting theological teachings and spiritual truths through sacred art.
Theology and Spirituality:

Mystical Theology: Eastern Catholic theology emphasizes the mystical experience of God, often through practices such as hesychasm (contemplative prayer) in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Incarnational Theology: There is a strong emphasis on the mystery of the Incarnation and theosis (divinization), where humanity is called to participate in the divine life through union with Christ.

Sacraments and Sacramentals:

Seven Sacraments: Like the Latin (Western) tradition, Eastern Catholics recognize the seven sacraments, but the rites and liturgical expressions vary significantly.

Blessings and Prayers: Eastern Catholics have specific blessings, prayers, and sacramentals that are integral to their spiritual life and communal worship.
Authority and Governance:

Autonomous Churches: Eastern Catholic churches are autonomous in governance, led by their own patriarchs, major archbishops, or bishops. They govern themselves according to their particular traditions and canonical norms.

Communion with Rome: While they maintain their autonomy, Eastern Catholics recognize the Pope as the spiritual leader and symbol of unity for the universal Church.
Ecumenical Relations:

Eastern Catholics often play a significant role in ecumenical dialogue, particularly with Eastern Orthodox churches due to their shared theological and liturgical heritage.
Examples of Eastern Catholic Churches
Byzantine Catholics: These include churches such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Melkite Greek Catholic Church, Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, and others following the Byzantine Rite.

Oriental Catholics: These include churches such as the Coptic Catholic Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Armenian Catholic Church, and others following ancient Oriental Rites.

Eastern Catholics represent a vibrant expression of Catholicism rooted in the diverse traditions of Eastern Christianity. They contribute to the richness and diversity of the universal Church while maintaining their own distinct cultural, liturgical, and theological heritage. Their beliefs and practices reflect a deep commitment to the unity of faith with Rome and the preservation of their ancient Christian traditions.

You may correct me if I'm wrong here-but I don't think so.

J.

Resources in Defense of Trinitarianism

[[UPDATE: see also my blog dedicated to defending the doctrine of the Trinity: Trinity Notes ]] In addition to my own Comments and Blog P...

misclane.blogspot.com

 

[Episkopos]

I didnt say that Jesus said that...
So, you are inventing what isn't there, once again.

Here is what Jesus said..

"You must be born again".........and He said this because if the spirit is not born again, as a 'new creation", then this means the Person has not become a CHRISTian.. It means they are not forgiven, and they are not joined spiritually to God and Christ.

This is why Jesus said, """"you MUST be born again".... (Spiritually).

Your religious conclusions are missing the point. Jesus is speaking of spiritual things being of the Spirit....just as carnal things are of the flesh. What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Through the Spirit we have access INTO the spiritual kingdom realm...to walk WHERE Jesus is...in Zion...

Only those who are born of the Spirit have this spiritual access. Those who are only born of the flesh cannot receive this...like yourself...who claims things from the bible without any understanding..and going DIRECTLY against what is actually of the Spirit.

 

[Behold]

Your religious conclusions are missing the point. Jesus is speaking of spiritual things being of the Spirit..

You dont seem to understand why Jesus came down here., virgin born. @Episkopos

Let me explain it to you., using the Cross of Christ.


God is HOLY< and man is SINNER.

"Jesus came to save SINNERS"..

Why?

Because the sinner, in their sin, cannot be accepted by God, until God deals with their sin that is SEPARATING all "sinners" from God.

"All have sinned, (You)... there are none righteous, no not one" (YOU)


So, how is Holy Righteous God, going to join Himself as "ONE with God" to a SINNER?

A.) The Cross of Christ......where a sinner can receive forgiveness of Sin, and "imputed righteousness"... that is = "the Gift of Righteousness".

So, that is to be BORN.. AGAIN.

Its where a SINNER, is forgiven, and "made righteous", and now being made free from Sin, = GOD can join Himself to this BELIEVER, and they then become "one with God".. "In Christ"....= "Born again : Spiritually".

Welcome to : SALVATION

ITS = "THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

 

[Episkopos]

19,716 "likes" from a man that makes no sense at all.

The assertion that all early Christians, including Paul, were Binitarian requires careful consideration and analysis of historical and theological evidence from the first-century context. Binitarianism generally refers to a belief in two distinct divine entities within the Godhead, typically God the Father and the pre-incarnate Christ (the Logos or Word).

Paul's View of the Spirit
Paul's writings in the New Testament provide insight into his theological understanding, particularly regarding the Holy Spirit:

Triadic Formulae: Paul often uses triadic formulae that include references to God the Father, Jesus Christ (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, indicating a recognition of the Spirit as a distinct entity within the Godhead. For example:

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV): "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
These formulations suggest Paul's understanding of the Spirit's divine nature and role alongside the Father and Son.

Work of the Spirit: Paul attributes various works and manifestations to the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11: Paul discusses the gifts of the Spirit, emphasizing their diverse manifestations within the body of Christ.
Romans 8:9-11: Paul teaches about the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, identifying the Spirit as the source of new life and transformation.

Personal Language: Paul uses personal language when referring to the Spirit, indicating the Spirit's agency and interaction with believers:

Romans 8:26-27: Paul describes the Spirit as interceding for believers and aiding in their prayers.

Galatians 4:6: Paul speaks of the Spirit as crying out "Abba, Father," indicating an intimate relationship between believers and God through the Spirit.

Early Christian Views on Binitarianism
Development of Doctrine: Early Christian views on the Trinity and the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit evolved over time. While the New Testament provides glimpses of Trinitarian concepts, the formal articulation and development of Trinitarian theology occurred in the post-New Testament period.

Diversity of Beliefs: Early Christian communities exhibited diverse beliefs and understandings of Christology and pneumatology (doctrine of the Holy Spirit). Some emphasized the divinity of Christ and the Spirit alongside the Father (proto-Trinitarianism), while others focused more on monotheism and the distinct roles of each person within the Godhead.


While Paul's writings demonstrate a robust theology of the Holy Spirit as a divine entity and active agent in the Christian life, the assertion that all early Christians were Binitarian, including Paul, oversimplifies the complexity of early Christian beliefs and development of Trinitarian theology.

Paul's understanding of the Spirit as divine and his recognition of the Spirit's role alongside the Father and Son laid foundational principles for later Trinitarian formulations. However, the full Trinitarian doctrine, articulating the equality and co-eternity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, developed more explicitly in the subsequent centuries of Christian theology. Therefore, while Paul's theology includes a high view of the Spirit's divinity and role, it should be understood within the broader context of early Christian diversity and theological development.

Resources in Defense of Trinitarianism

Here is why I think you might be an Eastern Catholic.
Eastern Catholics are a group of autonomous and self-governing churches within the Catholic Church that maintain their own distinct liturgical, theological, spiritual, and canonical traditions. They are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) and acknowledge his primacy, while also preserving their own unique heritage that traces back to the early Christian traditions of Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia.

Beliefs and Practices of Eastern Catholics
Liturgical Diversity:

Eastern Rites: Eastern Catholics follow various liturgical rites, such as the Byzantine, Alexandrian (Coptic), Syriac, Armenian, and others. Each rite has its own rich liturgical prayers, hymns, rituals, and calendar of feasts.
Iconography: Iconography plays a significant role in Eastern Catholic worship, reflecting theological teachings and spiritual truths through sacred art.
Theology and Spirituality:

Mystical Theology: Eastern Catholic theology emphasizes the mystical experience of God, often through practices such as hesychasm (contemplative prayer) in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Incarnational Theology: There is a strong emphasis on the mystery of the Incarnation and theosis (divinization), where humanity is called to participate in the divine life through union with Christ.

Sacraments and Sacramentals:

Seven Sacraments: Like the Latin (Western) tradition, Eastern Catholics recognize the seven sacraments, but the rites and liturgical expressions vary significantly.

Blessings and Prayers: Eastern Catholics have specific blessings, prayers, and sacramentals that are integral to their spiritual life and communal worship.
Authority and Governance:

Autonomous Churches: Eastern Catholic churches are autonomous in governance, led by their own patriarchs, major archbishops, or bishops. They govern themselves according to their particular traditions and canonical norms.

Communion with Rome: While they maintain their autonomy, Eastern Catholics recognize the Pope as the spiritual leader and symbol of unity for the universal Church.
Ecumenical Relations:

Eastern Catholics often play a significant role in ecumenical dialogue, particularly with Eastern Orthodox churches due to their shared theological and liturgical heritage.
Examples of Eastern Catholic Churches
Byzantine Catholics: These include churches such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Melkite Greek Catholic Church, Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, and others following the Byzantine Rite.

Oriental Catholics: These include churches such as the Coptic Catholic Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Armenian Catholic Church, and others following ancient Oriental Rites.

Eastern Catholics represent a vibrant expression of Catholicism rooted in the diverse traditions of Eastern Christianity. They contribute to the richness and diversity of the universal Church while maintaining their own distinct cultural, liturgical, and theological heritage. Their beliefs and practices reflect a deep commitment to the unity of faith with Rome and the preservation of their ancient Christian traditions.

You may correct me if I'm wrong here-but I don't think so.

J.

The early believers were Binatarian. But there was a problem. Paul and John could no longer lay hands on people to be EMPOWERED by the Spirit...so the clerics had to assume that power for themselves...without having any access to divine power themselves. So instead of being baptized in the POWER of the Spirit...it became just in the "name" of the Spirit...thus having a FORM of godliness but denying the POWER thereof.

Early believers like Eusebius of Ceasarea...the first church historian...and Origen...the first church theologian...were Binatarian..just like the apostles before them. Tertullian is an interesting case. He cites BOTH views. (He obviously was afraid of being excommunicated by the trinitarian supporters)

I hope to put the "two" back into Ter-TU-lian. :)

Only the trinatarian supporters had in mind to excommunicate all other kinds of supporters. So as in all of history...the more violent ones win. Eusebius stated that this was very unChristian to excommunicate others and act with an obvious agenda that was far from humble. Look at the history of the meanness of the church...the violence...all stemming from FORCING a doctrine that denies the power of the Spirit. If we reject the POWER and presence of God by His Spirit....we get religion. So then no Binatarian ever forced his views on others...not so the idea of the control of men by reducing the Spirit to a name.

Look at how the RC church tried changing the bible to add in the Johannine comma....or how Matt. 28:19 was changed from "In My name"...

Again, man gets his dirty hands on things and spoils the gentle ways of God..by inciting violence and using a force that is NOT from the Spirit.

But if people choose to be ruled over by other men...go for it...

 

[Episkopos]

You dont seem to understand why Jesus came down here., virgin born. @Episkopos

Let me explain it to you., using the Cross of Christ.


God is HOLY< and man is SINNER.

"Jesus came to save SINNERS"..

Why?

Because the sinner, in their sin, cannot be accepted by God, until God deals with their sin that is SEPARATING all "sinners" from God.

"All have sinned, (You)... there are none righteous, no not one" (YOU)


So, how is Holy Righteous God, going to join Himself as "ONE with God" to a SINNER?

A.) The Cross of Christ......where a sinner can receive forgiveness of Sin, and "imputed righteousness"... that is = "the Gift of Righteousness".

So, that is to be BORN.. AGAIN.

Its where a SINNER, is forgiven, and "made righteous", and now being made free from Sin, = GOD can join Himself to this BELIEVER, and they then become "one with God".. "In Christ"....= "Born again : Spiritually".

Welcome to : SALVATION

ITS = "THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

In the same breath as you claim Jesus came to save the world from sin...you deny the power to walk as He walked in HIS SALVATION. Truly schizoid.

You mock the higher walk in holiness...which is the actual gospel...a freedom from sin through empowerment by the Spirit.

 

[Behold]

.you deny the power to walk as He walked in HIS SALVATION.

I deny your idea of "walking as Jesus walked" as you teach this as SELF EFFORT, and that is Legalism, and that denies the Power of God.

So, Paul teaches walking as Jesus walked, as.. "I can do all things Through Christ"

And Paul teaches walking as Jesus walked as "CHRIST always gives me the Victory"... and the understanding of this, eludes you, "Mr Im doing it, see my works"...

Yes, i see them. @Episkopos