Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Johann]

The early church understanding is, that we get to share in God's energies, but not His essence, if we are willing/consent to see our old man as crucified. This does not happen when we first encounter Christ as have not yet experienced just how unable we are to keep His commandments so that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can take place as shown throughout the OT, He cannot dwell where there is sin.

Theosis, also known as deification or divinization, is a concept within Christian theology that describes the process by which believers are united with God and become partakers of the divine nature. It entails the transformation of the believer into the likeness of God, where they progressively share in God's qualities such as holiness, love, and immortality.

Origins and Development
The concept of Theosis has its roots in the teachings of the early Church fathers, particularly in the Eastern Christian tradition (Greek-speaking). It began to be articulated more formally as early Christian theologians reflected on passages in the New Testament that speak of believers becoming "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) and being transformed into the image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Early Church Fathers
Athanasius of Alexandria (4th century): Athanasius emphasized that God became human so that humans might become divine. He saw Theosis as the purpose of the Incarnation, where through Christ's union of divine and human natures, humanity could be united with God.

Gregory of Nyssa (4th century): Gregory wrote extensively on Theosis, describing it as the ultimate goal of the Christian life. He taught that through participation in the divine life, believers could experience a progressive transformation into God's likeness.

Maximus the Confessor (7th century): Maximus developed the concept of Theosis further, emphasizing that it involves not just a moral transformation but a mystical union with God that encompasses body, soul, and spirit.

Eastern Orthodox Tradition
Theosis became a central theme in Eastern Orthodox theology, where it is understood as the ongoing process of sanctification and union with God through the grace of the Holy Spirit. It is seen as the fulfillment of humanity's destiny to share in the life of the Trinity.

Key Elements of Theosis
Transformation: Theosis involves a transformative process where believers are changed into the likeness of Christ, growing in holiness and virtue.

Union with God: It includes a deepening union with God through prayer, participation in the sacraments, and living out the Christian life in communion with the Church.

Divine Participation: Believers participate in God's energies (activities and attributes) while maintaining a distinction from God's essence. This participation allows for a profound communion with God.

Importance and Influence
Theosis continues to be a significant theological concept in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, influencing spirituality, ethics, and the understanding of salvation. It underscores the belief that God's ultimate purpose for humanity is to be united with Him in a way that transcends mere moral improvement, leading to a participation in the divine life itself.

In summary, Theosis is the theological concept within Christianity that describes the transformative process by which believers are united with God and participate in His divine nature. It began to be articulated by early Christian theologians, especially in the Eastern tradition, and remains a foundational aspect of Eastern Orthodox theology and spirituality today.

Yup-going to have to chew the cud on this one sister.
J.

 

[Ritajanice]

A lot of confusion is caused because believers have that first encounter with Christ, think they are saved (when biblically it means saved from sin and not just the guilt or penalty). They assume all of the scriptures that only apply to those who are granted the true union with Christ and argue endlessly against anything further to obtain. Yet this was the teaching of the early church, so much so that it was assumed in the writings that one knew about it without laying it out.

There is no confusion on becoming Born Of God’s seed, Born Again, Born Of The Spirit..that’s the Living Spirit birth that Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit performs.

Why would that be confusing?

What I do find confusing is you saying believers have that first encounter with Christ, is it biblical and what does it mean!

Gods word says we must be Born Again, Born Of The Spirit...I don’t find that confusing at all.

What has scripture got to do with the Living spirit birth?

 

[Johann]

A lot of confusion is caused because believers have that first encounter with Christ, think they are saved (when biblically it means saved from sin and not just the guilt or penalty). They assume all of the scriptures that only apply to those who are granted the true union with Christ and argue endlessly against anything further to obtain. Yet this was the teaching of the early church, so much so that it was assumed in the writings that one knew about it without laying it out.

Well, I KNOW I am saved on my first encounter with Christ Jesus--

Initial Encounter vs. Ongoing Sanctification
Initial Encounter (Justification): The Bible teaches that through faith in Jesus Christ, we are justified—meaning our sins are forgiven, and we are declared righteous before God. This is a foundational moment when we are reconciled to God and adopted into His family (Romans 3:22-24; Ephesians 2:8-9).

Ongoing Sanctification: While justification is instantaneous, sanctification is a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ. It involves growing in holiness, overcoming sin, and maturing in our faith. Philippians 2:12-13 encourages believers to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, indicating an ongoing journey of obedience and transformation.

2. Scriptural Support for Sanctification
Romans 6:1-14: Paul teaches that believers, having been justified by faith, are now called to live a new life of holiness and righteousness. They are no longer slaves to sin but are empowered by the Spirit to live in obedience to God.

2 Corinthians 3:18: Paul describes how believers are transformed into the likeness of Christ from glory to glory by the Spirit. This ongoing transformation reflects the process of sanctification.

Ephesians 4:22-24: Paul instructs believers to put off the old self corrupted by sinful desires and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. This involves a continuous renewal of our minds and hearts.

3. Early Church Teaching
The early church, as reflected in the writings of the apostles and early Christian leaders, emphasized both justification (salvation from the penalty of sin) and sanctification (the process of being saved from the power of sin). They understood that salvation is a holistic work of God that begins with faith but continues with the believer's cooperation in God's transforming grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7: Paul urges believers to live holy lives, stating that God's will is their sanctification. This underscores the biblical teaching that sanctification is part of God's plan for every believer.

4. Union with Christ
John 15:4-5: Jesus teaches that believers must remain in Him to bear fruit, indicating an ongoing dependence and relationship with Him that results in spiritual growth and fruitfulness.

Colossians 3:1-4: Paul encourages believers to set their hearts on things above and to put to death earthly desires, indicating a continual process of spiritual renewal and growth in Christlikeness.

Conclusion
The biblical understanding of salvation encompasses both justification (initial forgiveness and reconciliation with God) and sanctification (ongoing transformation and growth in holiness). While believers are justified by faith in Christ alone, they are also called to live lives of increasing obedience and conformity to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. This process of sanctification is not merely an optional add-on but a fundamental aspect of Christian discipleship, emphasized by both the Scriptures and the early church's teaching.

Therefore, believers should embrace the full biblical teaching on salvation, understanding that while they are justified through faith, they are also called to ongoing sanctification and growth in Christ. This balanced perspective aligns with the comprehensive message of Scripture and the example set by early Christians who lived out their faith in dynamic relationship with Christ.

Praise YHVH and Yeshua HaMashiach and the Holy Spirit!
J.

 

[ScottA]

Do you find yourself questioning man-inspired doctrines and traditions and the religious certainties associated with these? Are you outgrowing the framework that holds you back from spiritual growth? Join me as we explore what it means to be apostolic in our pursuit of Christ.

This is a really good word on the state of the church!

Shared: Scott Allen Taylor

 

[Johann]

WARNING FROM POLYCARP.

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall have no more dominion over Him...Therefore we should not be puffed up....but we should beware lest somehow after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom (Heb 6:4-6). (Irenaeus Against Heresies. bk 4, ch 27, sec 2,)

Not the sinning Christian of Augustine.

And now I'm going to push back-gently.
Romans 7:18-19:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
Morphology and syntax: This passage reflects Paul's struggle with sin despite his desire to do good. The verbs "will" (θέλω, thelō) and "perform" (κατεργάζομαι, katergazomai) are present tense, indicating ongoing struggle and effort.
1 John 1:8-10:


Romans 7:18
οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοὶ τοῦτ' ἐστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειται μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

οἶδα (oida): I know (first person singular, indicative present active)
γὰρ (gar): for, because (conjunction)
ὅτι (hoti): that (conjunction)
οὐκ (ouk): not (particle)
οἰκεῖ (oikei): dwells (third person singular, indicative present active)
ἐν (en): in, among (preposition)
ἐμοὶ (emoi): in me (first person singular, dative pronoun)
τοῦτ' (tout'): this (neuter singular nominative demonstrative pronoun)
ἐστιν (estin): is (third person singular, indicative present active)
ἐν (en): in, among (preposition)
τῇ (tē): the (feminine singular dative definite article)
σαρκί (sarki): flesh (feminine singular dative noun)
μου (mou): my (first person singular genitive pronoun)
ἀγαθόν (agathon): good (neuter singular accusative adjective)
τὸ (to): the (neuter singular nominative definite article)
γὰρ (gar): for, because (conjunction)
θέλειν (thelein): to will, to desire (present active infinitive)
παράκειται (parakeitai): lies near, is present (third person singular, indicative present middle)
μοι (moi): to me (first person singular, dative pronoun)
τὸ (to): the (neuter singular accusative definite article)
δὲ (de): but, and (conjunction)
κατεργάζεσθαι (katergazesthai): to accomplish, to perform (present middle infinitive)
τὸ (to): the (neuter singular accusative definite article)
καλὸν (kalon): good (neuter singular accusative adjective)
οὐχ (ouch): not (particle)
εὑρίσκω (euriskō): I find (first person singular, indicative present active)
Translation:
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Meaning:
Paul acknowledges that within his human nature (flesh), there is no inherent goodness. While he desires to do good (the willing is present), he struggles to carry out the good deeds consistently.

Romans 7:19
οὐ γὰρ ὃ θέλω ποιῶ, ἀλλ' ὃ οὐ θέλω, τοῦτο πράσσω.

οὐ (ou): not (particle)
γὰρ (gar): for, because (conjunction)
ὃ (ho): what, which (neuter singular nominative relative pronoun)
θέλω (thelō): I desire, I will (first person singular, indicative present active)
ποιῶ (poiō): I do, I perform (first person singular, indicative present active)
ἀλλ' (all'): but, except (conjunction)
ὃ (ho): what, which (neuter singular nominative relative pronoun)
οὐ (ou): not (particle)
θέλω (thelō): I desire, I will (first person singular, indicative present active)
τοῦτο (touto): this (neuter singular nominative demonstrative pronoun)
πράσσω (prassō): I do, I practice (first person singular, indicative present active)
Translation:
"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

Meaning:
Paul expresses the ongoing struggle between his desires to do good and his actual actions. He often fails to do the good he desires and ends up doing what he does not want to do—committing evil.

Summary:
These verses from Romans 7:18-19 in the King James Version highlight Paul's introspective reflection on the human condition and the ongoing battle with sin despite the desire to do good. The morphology and grammar underscore the present tense actions and conditions, emphasizing the continual struggle that believers face in living out their faith amidst the weaknesses of human nature.


"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Morphology and syntax: The verbs "have" (ἔχω, echō) and "confess" (ὁμολογέω, homologeō) are present tense, indicating ongoing conditions and actions. The passage acknowledges the reality of sin in believers' lives and emphasizes the need for ongoing confession and forgiveness.


Galatians 5:17:

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Morphology and syntax: The verbs "lusteth" (ἐπιθυμεῖ, epithymeō) and "cannot do" (ποιεῖτε, poieō) are present tense, indicating ongoing conflict and inability to fully overcome the desires of the flesh.
James 3:2:

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."
Morphology and syntax: The verb "offend" (πταίω, ptaio) is present tense, indicating the possibility of believers sinning ("offending") in various ways.

These passages from the KJV illustrate that while believers are called to holiness and righteousness, they still grapple with the reality of sin in their lives. The verb tenses in these passages highlight the ongoing nature of the struggle against sin and the need for continual reliance on God's grace and forgiveness.

Correct @Hepzibah? We need to cross reference other passages as well and do take note of all the Present Tenses. And the Pronouns.
Johann.

 

[Hepzibah]

There is no confusion on becoming Born Of God’s seed, Born Again, Born Of The Spirit..that’s the Living Spirit birth that Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit performs.

Why would that be confusing?

What I do find confusing is you saying believers have that first encounter with Christ, is it biblical and what does it mean!

Gods word says we must be Born Again, Born Of The Spirit...I don’t find that confusing at all.

What has scripture got to do with the Living spirit birth?

When I say first encounter, I am looking at scripture and that first meeting with Christ when He said to the disciples 'follow Me'. As we can see from them they argued among themselves and fought for prominence showing they still had their sin natures. That ceased at Pentecost.

Yeah I know, I thought I was born again until the Holy Spirit began His work on me taking me through terrible trials in my training.

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes Johann, I know the Reformed teaching on this as I used to believe it. So a Reformed Greek Bible scholar pulls no weight for me as there is so much disagreement among theologians.

Yes believers grapple with sin in their lives while they are carnal and usually remain so, even becoming worse with age. I noticed that in Reformed churches. They did not get more holy with age and no-one testifies to that.

I might deal with 1 John later. What you say is taking one verse out of context.

 

[Johann]

As we can see from them they argued among themselves and fought for prominence showing they still had their sin natures. That ceased at Pentecost.

I wouldn't go that far-no offense.

Disciples' Struggles Before Pentecost:

Luke 22:24-27: Before Pentecost, the disciples argued about who among them was the greatest. Jesus taught them about servant leadership, indicating their ongoing struggles with pride and ambition.
Continued Imperfection After Pentecost:

Galatians 2:11-14: Even after Pentecost, Paul rebuked Peter publicly for hypocrisy, showing that believers, including prominent apostles, could still act in ways contrary to their beliefs.
Human Nature and Sanctification:

Romans 7:18-25: Paul's personal struggle with sin continues to be relevant post-Pentecost, illustrating the ongoing battle between the flesh and the Spirit in believers' lives.
Explanation:
Argument among Disciples: The New Testament records instances where the disciples, both before and after Pentecost, displayed characteristics that reflected their human imperfections. This includes disputes over status (Luke 22:24) and moments of weakness (Galatians 2:11-14), which are evidence that their sanctification was an ongoing process rather than an immediate perfection at Pentecost.

Sanctification Process: While Pentecost marked the empowering of believers by the Holy Spirit, it did not eliminate their human tendencies or the need for continual growth in holiness. The Scriptures emphasize that sanctification is a lifelong journey (Philippians 1:6), where believers are progressively transformed into the likeness of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Hence-while Pentecost was a pivotal moment in the life of the early church, it did not eradicate the disciples' sin natures or eliminate their struggles. Instead, it empowered them to live more effectively for Christ and to continue growing in grace and maturity through the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit.

Think I'll stay with what the Scripture says and not the early church.
Johann.

 

[Hepzibah]

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8.

As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4).

In the same letter we read:

He that commiteth sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him neither known Him John 3:6

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 1 John 3:9

He that abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, as even as He walked 1 John 2:6

He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4

Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

My little children, these things I write to you that you sin not. 1 John 2:1

John’s first letter was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.

The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the early or proto Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism.’ These Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.

We see that John is describing a process whereby we can test ourselves to see if we are in the true Light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, and pointing out where the early Gnostic idea has been creeping in:

1:7 if we say we have no sin (as in Gnosticism, my insert) we deceive ourselves 1:8 but if we confess our sin, He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here John shows where the deceivers depart from the truth. Their teaching was that they had no need of this cleansing, as they did not consider immoral actions as sin due to matter being evil which was escaped through having ‘special’ knowledge and not in keeping God’s law. They maintained that a child of God could still sin and continue to have fellowship with God, a concept which was known as ‘spirit salvation’.

The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.

In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-

1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)

2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven

3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.

Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-

1)We are deceived and remain in our sin

2)There is no truth in us

3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.

So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.

Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.

 

[Hepzibah]

"Galatians 2:11-14: Even after Pentecost, Paul rebuked Peter publicly for hypocrisy, showing that believers, including prominent apostles, could still act in ways contrary to their beliefs.
Human Nature and Sanctification:"

Yes as I said, one can lose the blessing but hopefully be restored. Paul made an error too by insisting on going up to Jerusalem despite the warnings from the Holy Spirit, yet he was not listening.

 

[Ritajanice]

When I say first encounter, I am looking at scripture and that first meeting with Christ when He said to the disciples 'follow Me'. As we can see from them they argued among themselves and fought for prominence showing they still had their sin natures. That ceased at Pentecost.

Ok.

Yeah I know, I thought I was born again until the Holy Spirit began His work on me taking me through terrible trials in my training.

Really, is that biblical.

Only the Spirit can testify to our spirit that we are Gods children...that is the Living spirit birth.

Our spirit is Born Again.

What made you think you were Born Again was it just by reading scripture that you thought you were Born Again?

You don’t need any Bible reading to be Born Of The Spirit just as Gods word says.

 

[Johann]

Yes Johann, I know the Reformed teaching on this as I used to believe it. So a Reformed Greek Bible scholar pulls no weight for me as there is so much disagreement among theologians.

Yes believers grapple with sin in their lives while they are carnal and usually remain so, even becoming worse with age. I noticed that in Reformed churches. They did not get more holy with age and no-one testifies to that.

I might deal with 1 John later. What you say is taking one verse out of context.

Hi @Hepzibah I cannot but help to disagree on your statement that the "sin nature" was removed from the disciples at Pentecost or believers now-when believers are carnal, living in a STATE of sinning it stands to reason they were never saved or regenerated in the first place.
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Ritajanice I knew I had encountered Christ one evening in September - 23rd it was 1973 after an atheist upbringing but meeting two 'born agains' for the first time.

I had been searching other religions but they contradicted what Jesus said so that evening I asked God if He was there to show me the truth when suddenly I 'saw' Him on the cross and knew He had died for my sins. It changed my life but I still struggled with some inner sins and as I said, was led for 17 years down that path of Purification till I could stand it no more and cried out. If you read holiness testimonies from the Holiness Movement you will find many the same.

 

[Ritajanice]

I knew I had encountered Christ one evening in September - 23rd it was 1973 after an atheist upbringing but meeting two 'born agains' for the first time.

I had been searching other religions but they contradicted what Jesus said so that evening I asked God if He was there to show me the truth when suddenly I 'saw' Him on the cross and knew He had died for my sins. It changed my life but I still struggled with some inner sins and as I said, was led for 17 years down that path of Purification till I could stand it no more and cried out. If you read holiness testimonies from the Holiness Movement you will find many the same.

Thanks for your testimony.

I became Born Again having never read a Bible in my life...that’s my testimony.

 

[Hepzibah]

Hi @Hepzibah I cannot but help to disagree on your statement that the "sin nature" was removed from the disciples at Pentecost or believers now-when believers are carnal, living in a STATE of sinning it stands to reason they were never saved or regenerated in the first place.
J.

The sin nature is to be crucified with Christ - dead. When it is gone there is no sin.

 

[Hepzibah]

Thanks for your testimony.

I became Born Again having never read a Bible in my life...that’s my testimony.

I never read the Bible beforehand. I had been reading books about Buddhism etc.

 

[ChristisGod]

Hi @Hepzibah I cannot but help to disagree on your statement that the "sin nature" was removed from the disciples at Pentecost or believers now-when believers are carnal, living in a STATE of sinning it stands to reason they were never saved or regenerated in the first place.
J.

Are believer alive in Christ ? yes or no
Have believers been raised in the heavenlies with Christ ? yes or no
Have believers been buried in baptism and raised to newness of life ? yes or no
Have we died with Christ ? yes or no
Are believes said to be " dead to sin" and alive to Christ " yes or no

 

[Hepzibah]

Are believer alive in Christ ? yes or no
Have believers been raised in the heavenlies with Christ ? yes or no
Have believers been buried in baptism and raised to newness of life ? yes or no
Have we died with Christ ? yes or no
Are believes said to be " dead to sin" and alive to Christ " yes or no

Yes to each one, but with a condition that they have been fully sanctified.

 

[Ritajanice]

I never read the Bible beforehand. I had been reading books about Buddhism etc.

That’s very interesting, thanks for sharing.

I love hearing other believers testimonies.

You saw Jesus on the cross..that must have been mind blowing...I bet it didn’t scare you either?

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes it was mind blowing. I knew I was on holy ground.