Defending Amillennialism

[Wormwood]

I don't have much time to respond (or a proper keyboard). I'm puzzled at your post Floyd. You claim I'm too rigid in my views but then tell Jack, "I'll never agree with your view..." The reason I wrote the forum is because Ive studied quite a lot. I'm always open, but I'm not blindly throwing darts when I settle in on my perspective. I don't think you are either. I think it's a bit lofty to expect that in a few posts either of us will change our views. Especially since I have studied these issues for years.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Wormwood

Um, no. The books of the NT were not written in Hebrew. This is completely and totally false. You are basing your views on a faulty premise.


Really? You are going to base your argument against me around a type-o?


If I felt like I had to "ignore" stuff in the Bible to hold a theological view, I wouldn't hold the theological view. The reason I hold to the view is because I believe it doesn't ignore the clear teachings of the Bible. From my perspective, other views have a tendency to do this...which is what I am trying to communicate in this discussion.

Quote

Um, no. The books of the NT were not written in Hebrew. This is completely and totally false. You are basing your views on a faulty premise.

Wormwood; he means the "Syriacs", which are Ancient Aramaic; which is a base of Hebrew. See:

Ancient Aramaic Manuscripts, Pshitta O and A:

Floyd.

Um, YES, Wormwood! Thank you, Floyd, but that is only part of the equation. There are also many internal clues to the fact; i.e. consider the Hebraisms that can be found throughout the NT. Not only were they a tell-tale sign of Jewish thinking, they also make little sense when NOT written in Hebrew (or Aramaic)!

For instance, consider the following paper:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html,

and

http://www.makorhebrew.org/new_testament.shtml,

for starters.

There is poetry in the New Testament that makes little sense in the Greek, but is well understood if translated back into Hebrew.

Now, a typo may be a simple slip of the finger, but in this case, we need to fully understand the word for it to make sense in the context. The word you gave is NOT misspelled. It is simply the wrong word. That's all.

 

[Floyd]

Shalom, Wormwood





Um, YES, Wormwood! Thank you, Floyd, but that is only part of the equation. There are also many internal clues to the fact; i.e. consider the Hebraisms that can be found throughout the NT. Not only were they a tell-tale sign of Jewish thinking, they also make little sense when NOT written in Hebrew (or Aramaic)!

For instance, consider the following paper:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html,

and

http://www.makorhebrew.org/new_testament.shtml,

for starters.

There is poetry in the New Testament that makes little sense in the Greek, but is well understood if translated back into Hebrew.

Now, a typo may be a simple slip of the finger, but in this case, we need to fully understand the word for it to make sense in the context. The word you gave is NOT misspelled. It is simply the wrong word. That's all.

I checked with Victor Alexander just to confirm my earlier comments re Pshitta (the word ending in" a" is the eastern version, uncorrupted ie untranslated until recently).
He confirmed that his translation, using ancient Aramaic is at present unique. You can talk to him directly at: [email protected]

Article on this subject: Ancient Aramaic Manuscripts, Pshitta O and A:

Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

I don't have much time to respond (or a proper keyboard). I'm puzzled at your post Floyd. You claim I'm too rigid in my views but then tell Jack, "I'll never agree with your view..." The reason I wrote the forum is because Ive studied quite a lot. I'm always open, but I'm not blindly throwing darts when I settle in on my perspective. I don't think you are either. I think it's a bit lofty to expect that in a few posts either of us will change our views. Especially since I have studied these issues for years.

Thank you again for caring!

Long ago I stood on some interpretations that I knew were 101% valid where a few dealt with the essentials of the faith. After a few months and depression coupled with confusion after finding out my position was fallacious, our Lord Christ Jesus made me imbide and inculcate IITim.3:16 (correctable and refutable), and since that time I have a greater peace within that I'm no longer offending our Lord let alone provoke Him into action with a greater "fear" (Rom.3:18) as each decades quickly passes by increasing my peace and faith, ie, "I'm open also" with you, not wanting to offend our Lord especially at my old age and mileage.

My point: Excellent thread and 'sparring'.

Old Jack

Hi Jack! I'll have to agree to disagree, first with the very premise you bring that the visions are symbolic - period. The Seal events which precede God's Wrath with the Scroll can be taken quite literally, as in fact, we see even today with the rise of animals killing man through disease. Viruses and bacteria are mutating to defeat our best science and AIDS, MRSA, Ebola and over a dozen and a half NEW diseases plague us today. I put it to you: the fourth Seal has already been opened.

I've said in my previous post that there are four endings to the one 'seven' in Revelation. I refer to the "Great Earthquake" which removes mountains. This is a necessary condition in the Millennium because rain patterns today are unequal because of the effect of mechanical lifting over major mountain ranges. In the Millennium, rain will be proportioned around the world equally and only withheld if a nation (and there are more than one) does ntot obey God's Laws.

Thank you again for your response!



As to your "ends:"

Rev 6:12-17 - Ah no, this is part of the sixth Seal and only the wicked proclaim God's Wrath has come. The Scroll has yet to open.

You're saying Rev.6:12-14 is not "1" ending of the world in light of "greart shaking occurred, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood, v.13 and the starts of the heaven fell to the earth...v.14 And the heaven was separated as a book roll being rolled up,..."? Appears to me as the first "1" ending fo the world at the future "1" Parousia" = "1" future Return of our Lord.

Rev 7:9-17 - No again, this is still part of the sixth Seal which includes the "Day of the Lord." The Great Multitude is the result of the "Harvest."

Rev.7:9, "...great multitude" contextually this "multitude" is the sum total of the fruit of the gospel on earth at the end of time (2nd "1" ending of the world), the net result of allll mission work, ie, a stunning vision, indeed.

Rev 11:14-19. Yes. This is one, actually, the second mentioned... you left off the end of the sidebar account in Rev 11:13.
Rev 14:14-20. Ah no again; I know why you say it though, you count the Harvest as happening on the absolute "last" day.
Rev 16:17-21. Yes. This concludes the detailed account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16. Again, we see the Great Earthquake.
Rev 19:11-21. Yes again. The battle at Armageddon concludes war; the Great Earthquake is not germane to the point being revealed and so not mentioned.
Rev 20:7-15. No, this is after the one 'seven' and after the Millennium. It is a different "end" altogether and stands alone.

Again, regarding the rest of the former passages, each are a "1" ending of the world.

So, from seeing how you parse Revelation, I take it you are Amillennial in your belief and are a "Last Day" adherent.

I'm a last "2" Trumpets (5th and 6th) adherent where our Lord's wrath in preliminary judgments are pouring out now for all those that somple fall under IIThess.2:10B, even possibly at this moment? btw we are even beyond Rev.8:7-13.

I am Pre-Wrath and I do not combine the Rapture with the end of the one 'seven.' I place the Day of the Lord coming at some truncated time after the midpoint abomination as Jesus disclosed to us in the Olivet Discourse. I also conclude God's Plan includes two short time periods after it as foretold in Daniel 12 and then a Millennium peace so all of Israel will be saved.

In 1Th 3:13, the dead, who are resurrected first, don't literally rise from their graves, but are called out from Paradise. They figuratively rise from their graves, but not literally. They are literally made alive though. It is the soul that is resurrected.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

btw All in their tombs rise on the last day, Jn.5:28, 29, ie, the good and the bad, all at one time without any 'millennium separating.

 

[Wormwood]

Shalom, Wormwood







Um, YES, Wormwood! Thank you, Floyd, but that is only part of the equation. There are also many internal clues to the fact; i.e. consider the Hebraisms that can be found throughout the NT. Not only were they a tell-tale sign of Jewish thinking, they also make little sense when NOT written in Hebrew (or Aramaic)!

For instance, consider the following paper:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hebraisms.html,

and

http://www.makorhebrew.org/new_testament.shtml,

for starters.

There is poetry in the New Testament that makes little sense in the Greek, but is well understood if translated back into Hebrew.

Now, a typo may be a simple slip of the finger, but in this case, we need to fully understand the word for it to make sense in the context. The word you gave is NOT misspelled. It is simply the wrong word. That's all.

Sorry Retro, I'm not gonna chase rabbits down this trail. Looks to be another one of those "secrets" for decoding the Bible. Show me some serious and well known scholars who affirm this theory of yours and I'd be happy to research it. All I know is that every Bible seminary and textbook I have ever heard of teaches Koine Greek because it is universally understood to be the original language of the NT. It's silly to me to think that Hebrews couldn't communicate like Hebrews in Koine. Most 1st century Hebrews spoke Greek which is why their scriptures had to be translated into Greek prior to the first century.

When I'm ready to publish my forum posts I'll be sure to consult you as a proof reader.


Jack,

I very much appreciate your gracious comments. I have a feeling you know more than all of us combined. I appreciate your humble spirit.

 

[Floyd]

I am travelling at present; and cannot stay with the thread; will attempt to catch up in approx. 10 days.
However; have not seen any data yet which would sway my position from that arrived at over 55 years of prayerful study and debate.
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

Sorry Retro, I'm not gonna chase rabbits down this trail. Looks to be another one of those "secrets" for decoding the Bible. Show me some serious and well known scholars who affirm this theory of yours and I'd be happy to research it. All I know is that every Bible seminary and textbook I have ever heard of teaches Koine Greek because it is universally understood to be the original language of the NT. It's silly to me to think that Hebrews couldn't communicate like Hebrews in Koine. Most 1st century Hebrews spoke Greek which is why their scriptures had to be translated into Greek prior to the first century.

When I'm ready to publish my forum posts I'll be sure to consult you as a proof reader.


Jack,

I very much appreciate your gracious comments. I have a feeling you know more than all of us combined. I appreciate your humble spirit.

Thank you for your response and caring!

I thank our Lord for I Cor.1:27 along with the following to explain why enrolled in a life time course of the anceint languages, and other's views, whether valid or invalid, has minimized my fallacious views of precious interpretations. Decades ago, I would have to had inserted 'maximized' my fallacious views of precious interpretations. .

Old 24/7 Jack with you,

What happened to all those decades? :blink: .

I am travelling at present; and cannot stay with the thread; will attempt to catch up in approx. 10 days.
However; have not seen any data yet which would sway my position from that arrived at over 55 years of prayerful study and debate.
Floyd.

Thank you for caring brother Floyd!

Looking forward to your valuable input - thank you again.

Old Jack

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Wormwood.

Sorry Retro, I'm not gonna chase rabbits down this trail. Looks to be another one of those "secrets" for decoding the Bible. Show me some serious and well known scholars who affirm this theory of yours and I'd be happy to research it. All I know is that every Bible seminary and textbook I have ever heard of teaches Koine Greek because it is universally understood to be the original language of the NT. It's silly to me to think that Hebrews couldn't communicate like Hebrews in Koine. Most 1st century Hebrews spoke Greek which is why their scriptures had to be translated into Greek prior to the first century.

When I'm ready to publish my forum posts I'll be sure to consult you as a proof reader.

...

No "rabbits," brother, and no "secret decoder rings," either. It's really quite simple:

The disciples of Yeshua` were first and foremost HEBREWS! (Some folks say "JEWS," although that's not entirely accurate.) They were children of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov - children of Yisra'el! As children of Yisra'el (Israel), they could speak Hebrew (or Aramaic, which is not that different from Hebrew), and as subjects under Roman rule, having relatively "recently" been subjects under the Persian and Seleucid Empires, were also familiar with the lingua franca at the time, Greek, particularly the Koine Greek or the Commoner's Greek, which even Roma preferred over Latin.

However, as children of Yisra'el, they would have PREFERRED the Hebrew tongue as their mother tongue and as opposed to the rule of Roma over them. Greek was the FOREIGNERS' language! It was the language they were FORCED to use with the Gentile occupiers and publicans within THEIR Land! So, when dealing with those OUTSIDE of Isra'el, they would speak in Greek; when dealing with their NEIGHBORS and RELATIVES WITHIN Isra'el, they would speak in Hebrew (or Aramaic, the Syrian version of the language, made popular in communicating with those of the first Diaspora who remained in Mesopotamia). (Aram = Syria.)

Yeshua` during His "ministry" (or actually His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el) was not sent to anyone but the "lost sheep of the house of Isra'el." A few Samaritans and Gentiles are mentioned in the Gospels, but they are the EXCEPTIONS to the rule. Yeshua` did not seek them out (although He also did not turn them away, even if He at first gave that impression).

Thus, the language of choice for the early disciples of Yeshua` would have been Hebrew (or Aramaic), their MOTHER tongue, not Greek. Later, once Hebrews who made pilgrimages from foreign countries were added to their numbers at Shavuot (Pentecost), and even later than that when the Gentiles were added, they would need to consider the Gentile tongue of Greek for their letters. Thus, the "original language" of Greek may not have been so "original" after all.

Now, I'm not saying that the original MANUSCRIPTS weren't written in Koine Greek; however, there were as many as 80 years between the activities of the early disciples and when some of the books were finally written. During most of this time, the information was either communicated by word-of-mouth OR some of it was written down to preserve this knowledge. These "notes" were penned in Aramaic BEFORE they were comprised into an "international manuscript" document written in Koine for all to understand. That's all I'm saying. Luke even admits to this:

Luke 1:1-4
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
KJV

In Greek, this is...

1 Epeideeper polloi epecheireesan anataxasthai dieegeesin peri toon pepleeroforeemenoon en heemin pragmatoon,
2 kathoos paredosan heemin hoi ap’ archees autoptai kai hupeeretai genomenoi tou logou,
3 edoxe kamoi pareekoloutheekoti anoothen pasin akriboos kathexees soi grapsai, kratiste Theofile,
4 hina epignoos peri hoon kateecheethees logoon teen asfaleian.

1 Epeideeper = 1 Since-now-indeed
polloi = many-people
epecheireesan = have-undertaken
anataxasthai = to-put-in-order/arrange
dieegeesin = a-recitation
peri = through
toon = the
pepleeroforeemenoon = most-trustworthy
en = in/among
heemin = us
pragmatoon, = affairs
2 kathoos = 2 just-as
paredosan = they-gave
heemin = to-us
hoi = which
ap’ = from
archees = (the)-beginning
autoptai = eye-witnesses
kai = and
hupeeretai = subordinates
genomenoi = were
tou = of-the
logou, = subject,
3 edoxe = 3 it-seemed-good
kamoi = also-to-me
pareekoloutheekoti = having-had-understanding
anoothen = from-the-very-first
pasin = of-all-(things)
akriboos = exactly
kathexees = in-order
soi = to-thee
grapsai, = to-write,
kratiste = strongest
Theofile, = God-Lover,
4 hina = 4 so-that
epignoos = thou-mightest-know
peri = through
hoon = which
kateecheethees = thou-hast-been-instructed
logoon = of-words/subjects

Luke 1:1-4

The Good News of Yeshua the Messiah,
as Reported by​

LUKE​

1:1 Dear Theophilos:
Concerning the matters that have taken place among us, many people have undertaken to draw up accounts 2 based on what was handed down to us by those who from the start were eyewitnesses and proclaimers of the message. 3 Therefore, Your Excellency, since I have carefully investigated all these things from the beginning, it seemed good to me that I too should write you an accurate and ordered narrative, 4 so that you might know how well-founded are the things about which you have been taught.
CJB

Call it a "two-house theory of original languages." (LOL.) Within the auspices of the children of Isra'el, the original language was Aramaic (commoners' Hebrew); outside of the household of Isra'el, the original language was Koine Greek (commoners' Greek).

And, yes, I'm regretting my pointing out the misspelling. I'm sorry for even bringing it up since I've obviously offended you. I apologize.

 

[Wormwood]

Retro,

There is simply no evidence of what you are proposing. Matthew, Mark, John, Paul, Peter and the author of Hebrews, all wrote the Scriptures in Greek. All the earliest manuscripts are copies from Greek, not translations of Aramaic. Moreover, these authors almost always quote from the Greek Septuagint when they cite the OT. This would be very odd if they were writing in Aramaic and were opposed to writing or speaking in Greek. The passage in Luke says nothing about notes in Aramaic. Again, the reason the Septuagint was translated in the first place was because many Hebrews no longer spoke Hebrew because it was not the language of the culture surrounding them. Clearly many Pharisees and teachers of the law felt the Hebrew language was sacred and were not happy about the wide use of Greek among the people or the translation of the Septuagint. However, there is zero evidence the NT writers shared this concern. In fact, they seemed eager to get the Good News out in a common language that was accessible to as many as possible. If Aramaic was important to the early authors, surely we would have at least a few very early copies in Aramaic. We do not. All the earliest parchments are in Greek. Not some...all.

I'm not upset about the word correction. I just think it was a bit silly to issue a lengthy correction on the matter when the context made my intent very clear. It just seemed like a bit of a straw man. I don't spend much time proofing or editing these little responses. When I see typos, I just try to look past that and understand the intent of the other person. If we start dealing with each other's typos, we will lose sight of the weightier issues.

 

[Rach1370]

Revelation 20 has become one of the most divisive chapters in the Bible. Fierce debates have arisen about Israel, timelines, notions of Antichrist and great tribulation periods that have frustrated and confused many. I certainly do not believe that issues of eschatology are matters worth dividing the church over. Yet, some denominations include particular millennial views as requirements for membership. I find this to be unfortunate. The purpose of this post is not to increase the divide (although I am sure there will be some healthy debate on the issue) but to show why I believe the Amillennial view to be a valid eschatological approach that deserves a second look. Even if we disagree, I think it is important to understand that other views have valid points that are worthy of respect and consideration.

Hey! A fellow Amil person! I don't mention it most times because I can hear the gasps even online a continent away!
I haven't had time to read hardly any of this thread, I'm sorry, so I'm not sure I can make much of contribution here....but I would probably say...
Firstly...I'm not real sure that, even though I feel the 'Amil' position is the most faithful to scripture, that I share all the beliefs that you do. Actually, it seems that many 'Amil' people differ in some of the fine details. For example, I see that Rom 9-11 clearly teaches that at the end of this age, there will be a great mass of Jews come to a saving faith in Christ. And it is through that, as well as the 'church', that the promises to Israel are kept....that sort of thing.
But as I said....I see a lot of differing positions on some of these things.

The big reason I hold to 'Amil'....well, two reasons, I suppose....are these: firstly, I was raised to believe the pre-trib, pre-mil position...although goodness knows it was never really talked about much. But as I grew older I just couldn't make certain scriptures add up. So I prayed, read, prayed, read some more...for a couple of years, and feel God has led me to this position....which leads to the second reason...which also perhaps answers Arnie's question as well:

Wormwood .... best wishes ... it has been several years since I looked closely at Amillenialism , and quite frankly It tires me out to debate so i only ask one question of Amillenialists as follows ....

... doesn't it mess with your head when you have to ignore stuff in the bible that does not reconcile with Amillenialism ?

Thank you

It was my desire to NOT ignore bible passages that led me to such a position.
I have always been taught that in bible learning and interpretation, we must start with the easier to understand passages, and use that understanding to guide us in the more difficult passages. Revelation has always been an entire book surrounded by speculation and interpretations that were based on beliefs...not the other way around, I believe. So those who were pre-trib, pre-mil, would read it and go....'aha! That obviously means that'.
Given that it was such a difficult book, I (and all other 'Amils' I believe) went looking for what the bible says about Christ's return. Because it seems to me that the end times debate hinges on that event.

What does Corinthians tell us about Christ's return?

For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
(1 Corinthians 15:21-26 ESV)

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:42-44 ESV)

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53 ESV)

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Corinthians 15:54-57 ESV)


So...we see in Corinthians....that Christ, being resurrected in his new body, was firstfruits, and that when he returns, so we shall receive ours. This is then the end, when Christ delivers the Kingdom of God to his father, where he has bought everything under his reign, even death.
We then see several things that backs this up: when we receive our new bodies, it is because we have entered into the Kingdom of God...we have our heavenly bodies...flesh and blood cannot enter it. We also see that this is the same time as it is said that Death is now defeated, which in 15:26 tells us is the very last enemy.

(Jesus)...who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (1 Peter 3:22 ESV)

Peter confirms that even now Jesus has authority over everything...the only thing left is death.



In 1 Thessalonians we see that the 'Rapture' happens at the second coming, an event that is not secret or quiet, and in 2 Thess 2:1 we again see Paul talking, as he did in 1 Cor 15:42-44, that our 'gathering' to him (or Rapture) happens when Jesus comes again.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ESV)

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, (2 Thessalonians 2:1 ESV)

Now we consider the Judgement that comes.

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
(Matthew 16:27 ESV)

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46 ESV)

If you read Revelation 20:11-15 (The White Throne Judgement), you see a startling similarity between it and the goats and sheep judgement...too much of a similarity to ignore. The other passages make it clear that this judgement happens when Jesus returns.

And this last passage I will share, clearly shows that when Jesus returns, it "The End"

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (2 Peter 3:10 ESV)


There are many others passages etc which support the Amil position...but I felt it was important for others to know that it was because I could not overlook what these ones are saying, that I arrived where I did. The bible clearly and repeatedly gives us a clear picture...when Jesus returns, these events happen. No where does it give us leaveway, I think, to insert numerous other events, strategies, and time periods.

Just my two cents!

 

[shturt678]

Hey! A fellow Amil person! I don't mention it most times because I can hear the gasps even online a continent away!
I haven't had time to read hardly any of this thread, I'm sorry, so I'm not sure I can make much of contribution here....but I would probably say...
Firstly...I'm not real sure that, even though I feel the 'Amil' position is the most faithful to scripture, that I share all the beliefs that you do. Actually, it seems that many 'Amil' people differ in some of the fine details

. For example, I see that Rom 9-11 clearly teaches that at the end of this age, there will be a great mass of Jews come to a saving faith in Christ. And it is through that, as well as the 'church', that the promises to Israel are kept....that sort of thing.
But as I said....I see a lot of differing positions on some of these things.

Thank you for your work!

Rom.9-11, not so much a great mass of Jews, however the Jews will not disappar as one may think, ie, a remnant will become the spiritual Israel - Jewish Christians, ie, my two-bits only. Like your "saving faith in Christ"!

The big reason I hold to 'Amil'....well, two reasons, I suppose....are these: firstly, I was raised to believe the pre-trib, pre-mil position...although goodness knows it was never really talked about much. But as I grew older I just couldn't make certain scriptures add up. So I prayed, read, prayed, read some more...for a couple of years, and feel God has led me to this position....which leads to the second reason...which also perhaps answers Arnie's question as well:



It was my desire to NOT ignore bible passages that led me to such a position.
I have always been taught that in bible learning and interpretation, we must start with the easier to understand passages, and use that understanding to guide us in the more difficult passages. Revelation has always been an entire book surrounded by speculation and interpretations that were based on beliefs...not the other way around, I believe. So those who were pre-trib, pre-mil, would read it and go....'aha! That obviously means that'.
Given that it was such a difficult book, I (and all other 'Amils' I believe) went looking for what the bible says about Christ's return. Because it seems to me that the end times debate hinges on that event.

What does Corinthians tell us about Christ's return?

For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
(1 Corinthians 15:21-26 ESV)

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:42-44 ESV)

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53 ESV)

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Corinthians 15:54-57 ESV)


So...we see in Corinthians....that Christ, being resurrected in his new body, was firstfruits, and that when he returns, so we shall receive ours. This is then the end, when Christ delivers the Kingdom of God to his father, where he has bought everything under his reign, even death.
We then see several things that backs this up: when we receive our new bodies, it is because we have entered into the Kingdom of God...we have our heavenly bodies...flesh and blood cannot enter it. We also see that this is the same time as it is said that Death is now defeated, which in 15:26 tells us is the very last enemy.

(Jesus)...who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (1 Peter 3:22 ESV)

Peter confirms that even now Jesus has authority over everything...the only thing left is death.



In 1 Thessalonians we see that the 'Rapture' happens at the second coming, an event that is not secret or quiet, and in 2 Thess 2:1 we again see Paul talking, as he did in 1 Cor 15:42-44, that our 'gathering' to him (or Rapture) happens when Jesus comes again.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ESV)

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, (2 Thessalonians 2:1 ESV)

Now we consider the Judgement that comes.

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
(Matthew 16:27 ESV)

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46 ESV)

If you read Revelation 20:11-15 (The White Throne Judgement), you see a startling similarity between it and the goats and sheep judgement...too much of a similarity to ignore. The other passages make it clear that this judgement happens when Jesus returns.

And this last passage I will share, clearly shows that when Jesus returns, it "The End"

Only wanted to share that at each one's passing, forensically and secretly one is judged as a 'sheep' or a 'goat' from heaven only to sit on the left or right at the "1" Parousia.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (2 Peter 3:10 ESV)

There are many others passages etc which support the Amil position...but I felt it was important for others to know that it was because I could not overlook what these ones are saying, that I arrived where I did. The bible clearly and repeatedly gives us a clear picture...when Jesus returns, these events happen. No where does it give us leaveway, I think, to insert numerous other events, strategies, and time periods.

Just my two cents!

Overall, great!

Old Jack's lower paygrade opinion.

 

[Cooter]

QuoteWormwood, on 22 Apr 2014 - 7:58 PM, said:

Enoch, thanks for your reply.

Are you suggesting that the advent of Christ and the preaching of the Gospel is of little consequence to Satan? Christ crushed his head and Rev 20 only says that he was prohibited from "deceiving the nations" not the absolution of evil.




Here is an attempt to contribute to your intelligent thread.

Lets look at the context of Rev 20 again...

Revelation 20:7-10 (NIV2011)
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

When the unknown period of time (no one knows the day or the hour) has passed (the Gospel age) Satan will be allowed to operate for a period of time with little restraint. He will be allowed to do his absolute worst. The idea is to polarize the inhabitants of the earth in order to separate them into either the sheep fold or the goats pen. It's a final mass effort to persuade people to seek God. This will be the final attempt to evangelize people who are still unsaved. This happens just before the second coming. This is one of the very few prophetic events that is still in our future; and there are so very few left.

8 ...and (Satan) will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

Both Daniel and Ezekiel (38-39) prophesied the invasion in the second century BC of Antiochus Epiphanes. This was a very severe and deadly time for the Jewish people. This was the first time that a King (Seleucid Empire) had ever attempted to totally wipe out the people of God - both the Jews and the Old Covenant. Antiochus plundered the city, killed many Jews, they took over the temple for a period of three full years. They burned their scrolls, and even had a plan in force to Hellenize all of the Jews. They were planning on wiping out Israel completely. His army came into Israel like a swarm of locusts. It was not successful due to the help that God gave to the Maccabees who after three years drove them out and Israel was finally restored.

1. Daniel & Ezekiel prophesied the coming of Antiochus.

1. 
   Their prophesies were realized between BC167 to BC164.
   
2. 
   John going back into Jewish history recalled this long past historical event and includes it into his Revelation Chapter 20 scroll.
   

It's common today to hear that Gog and Magog is still a future event - not so - because John is using the term “Gog and Magog” to symbolize another event – the total destruction of the Church following Satan's release from restraint. That is why he uses this term because the two events are identical. Antiochus tried to totally destroy the people of God in the second century BC; and Satan will try to do it again in our future – after he is released.

Also take note that he is only bound in one area of his activity. He is not allowed to gather “All nations” against the Church of our day. That is his only restraint.

...But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This of course is a description of the one and only Second Coming in which Jesus destroys the world with the brightness of his coming and the elements melt with fervent heat.

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is the end of time and humanity on earth. There is no further use for Satan and he is finally sequestered in the lake of Fire forever where the Beast (Beast is a symbol of human government – in this case the corrupt and decadent Roman government) and false prophet are. The false prophet was the religious organization of Rome – the Concilia – who persecuted the Church by forcing them to worship the Emperor.

In case anyone missed the point of this post – Satan will be loosed (allowed) to make an effort once again to attempt a total destruction of the people of God (Christianity) in the same historical manner of Antiochus (Gog and Magog). This attempt leads to the Second Coming witch terminates this effort and the curtain drops on time and humanity.

 

[Wormwood]

Cooter,

Thanks for your response. I agree. It is quite clear that John uses past events to highlight the nature of the current situation of the Church and the Second Coming. Clearly, John plays off of numerous OT situations to reveal what God is doing in the present. Terms like Babylon, Jezebel, Meggido, etc. all point to present day situations that mirror what took place with God's faithful in the past. I agree that Gog and Magog is just employing imagery of something that took place during the Maccabees.

I also agree that it is very likely the church will be in a very precarious situation before the second coming. Just my gut feeling primarily. Seems like God always works out salvation in the midst of seemingly overwhelming odds...for his own glory.

 

[shturt678]

Here is an attempt to contribute to your intelligent thread.

Lets look at the context of Rev 20 again...

Revelation 20:7-10 (NIV2011)
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

When the unknown period of time (no one knows the day or the hour) has passed (the Gospel age) Satan will be allowed to operate for a period of time with little restraint. He will be allowed to do his absolute worst. The idea is to polarize the inhabitants of the earth in order to separate them into either the sheep fold or the goats pen. It's a final mass effort to persuade people to seek God. This will be the final attempt to evangelize people who are still unsaved. This happens just before the second coming. This is one of the very few prophetic events that is still in our future; and there are so very few left.

8 ...and (Satan) will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

Both Daniel and Ezekiel (38-39) prophesied the invasion in the second century BC of Antiochus Epiphanes. This was a very severe and deadly time for the Jewish people. This was the first time that a King (Seleucid Empire) had ever attempted to totally wipe out the people of God - both the Jews and the Old Covenant. Antiochus plundered the city, killed many Jews, they took over the temple for a period of three full years. They burned their scrolls, and even had a plan in force to Hellenize all of the Jews. They were planning on wiping out Israel completely. His army came into Israel like a swarm of locusts. It was not successful due to the help that God gave to the Maccabees who after three years drove them out and Israel was finally restored.

1. Daniel & Ezekiel prophesied the coming of Antiochus.

1. 
   Their prophesies were realized between BC167 to BC164.
   
2. 
   John going back into Jewish history recalled this long past historical event and includes it into his Revelation Chapter 20 scroll.
   

It's common today to hear that Gog and Magog is still a future event - not so - because John is using the term “Gog and Magog” to symbolize another event – the total destruction of the Church following Satan's release from restraint. That is why he uses this term because the two events are identical. Antiochus tried to totally destroy the people of God in the second century BC; and Satan will try to do it again in our future – after he is released.

Thank you folks for kickstarting my day! In complete agreement to this point, not that I'm anybody, ie, encourages me!




Also take note that he is only bound in one area of his activity. He is not allowed to gather “All nations” against the Church of our day. That is his only restraint.

No refute, only adding that he is not personally allowed to prevent the heralding the true gospel to all the nations.

...But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

This of course is a description of the one and only Second Coming in which Jesus destroys the world with the brightness of his coming and the elements melt with fervent heat.

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is the end of time and humanity on earth. There is no further use for Satan and he is finally sequestered in the lake of Fire forever where the Beast (Beast is a symbol of human government – in this case the corrupt and decadent Roman government) and false prophet are. The false prophet was the religious organization of Rome – the Concilia – who persecuted the Church by forcing them to worship the Emperor.

In case anyone missed the point of this post – Satan will be loosed (allowed) to make an effort once again to attempt a total destruction of the people of God (Christianity) in the same historical manner of Antiochus (Gog and Magog). This attempt leads to the Second Coming witch terminates this effort and the curtain drops on time and humanity.

Thank you folks again!

Old Jack

btw I have a different view of the "beast" of course.