Defending Amillennialism

[Wormwood]

Revelation 20 has become one of the most divisive chapters in the Bible. Fierce debates have arisen about Israel, timelines, notions of Antichrist and great tribulation periods that have frustrated and confused many. I certainly do not believe that issues of eschatology are matters worth dividing the church over. Yet, some denominations include particular millennial views as requirements for membership. I find this to be unfortunate. The purpose of this post is not to increase the divide (although I am sure there will be some healthy debate on the issue) but to show why I believe the Amillennial view to be a valid eschatological approach that deserves a second look. Even if we disagree, I think it is important to understand that other views have valid points that are worthy of respect and consideration.

A brief definition:
Amillennialism is the view that 1,000 year period mentioned in Revelation is a symbolic number that should be understood qualitatively rather than quantitatively. Also, amillennialists believe that the promises made to Israel, David, and Abraham in the OT find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ and the church in the present age. The "millennium" is a unspecified period of time between the two advents of the Lord Jesus. Christ is currently reigning in heaven during the period between the two advents. It rejects the notion of a 7 year tribulation, secret rapture and dispensational understanding of God's interaction with humanity. Rather, the second coming, resurrection of good and evil, rapture and judgment all occur on the same day and are not events spread out over years, decades or centuries.

Defending a symbolic understanding of the 1,000 years:
Many object to Amillennialism because they claim it rejects a "literal" reading of Revelation 20. However, I find that those who claim to read Revelation "literally" quite simply do not. If so, then we must conclude that Jesus has seven eyes and seven horns, Jesus literally looks like a butchered lamb in heaven, dragons, beasts and locusts with hair will literally roam the earth, and a giant prostitute will ride around on a monstrous beast with multiple heads and crowns, drinking glasses of blood. I have yet to find someone who claims to read Revelation "literally" to make such an argument. So the question is not who interprets Revelation literally, but where do we draw the lines between that which is symbolic and that which is specific. I would argue that Revelation is full of symbolic numbers, such as 6, 7, 12 and multiples of 10. For instance, seven churches, seven eyes, seven horns, seven seals, seven lampstands, seven trumpets, seven heads, seven hills etc. Then there are ten heads, ten crowns, ten days of persecution, 10,000 x 10,000, 144,000 (10x10x10x12x12), and 1,000 years (10x10x10). In my estimation, pretty much all the numbers in revelation are symbolic. Are there really only 10,000 x 10,000 angels in heaven? Did John count them all? Are there really 2 million people in the army of Armageddon? Did John count them? Did Jesus really mean that people would only be persecuted for 10 days? If so, why does he say to remain faithful, even unto death?

The immanent return of Christ:
One reason I hold to the Amillennial view is that it makes the most sense of Christ's teaching about his return. It seems evident to me that Paul and the Apostles expected Jesus to return at any moment. They were not waiting for the Temple to be rebuilt (those that lived after 70AD) or the entire nation of Israel coming to faith in Christ. Neither is there any indication that they expected any sort of secret rapture that would take all the Christians out of the world. Rather, Jesus told his disciples to "watch" because they "do not know the day or hour." In fact, the entire point of all of Jesus' parables about his return is that it comes in a moment when no one is expecting it so therefore believers should live every moment like the Master will return. There is no indication that his return will be delayed for 7 years after an initial rapture. Moreover, there is nothing to indicate the "rapture" to be silent. Rather, Paul indicates that it will be preceded by the appearance of Christ, the voice of the archangel, the trumpet of God and the resurrection of the good and evil. In fact, when Jesus speaks of those who are "taken away" in Matthew 24, he is referring to the flood. Those who were "taken away" were the wicked while those who were "left" behind were the righteous (Noah and his family)! You do not want to be "left behind!"

The millennial age:
Finally, I think most of the views about the "millennial age" have absolutely nothing to do with Revelation 20. Revelation 20 says very little about the 1,000 years other than that Satan will be bound so that he can "deceive the nations" no longer. It never says anything about people living to be 300 years old or lions laying down with lambs. It says nothing bout the exaltation of national Israel. All of these concepts have been imposed upon Revelation 20 from the Old Testament. The only thing mentioned about Revelation 20 is the binding of Satan, his inability to deceive, and the coming to life of those who refused to worship the beast so they could reign with Christ 1,000 years.

My contention is that this "first resurrection" has to do with those who are baptized in Christ and die in the faith. As Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.” (Cf. John 11:25–26) There is no place else in the NT that speaks of two resurrections of the righteous, except when referring to the "first resurrection" as being "raised with Christ" through faith in him. It only makes sense that those who take part of this first resurrection have no fear of the "second death" (hell). Moreover, the NT is very clear that Jesus came to "bind the enemy" and "render powerless" the works of the devil. The Gospel is the power of God to save all who believe. At one time, entire nations were deceived and enslaved. But now, by the preaching of the Gospel, the enemy is bound and powerless to prevent people from finding life and hope in Christ.

Well, I suppose I could write for a long time on this. But I would rather hear from you. What are your thoughts?

 

[ENOCH2010]

There is a lot of evil in the world right now for satan to be bound and locked away in chains.

 

[Floyd]

Wormwood:
I have to say that I disagree completely with almost all you have said on this subject.

The "spiritualisation" of all the events you quote is common in many churches; and is condoned by the "Authorities", to avoid upsetting the feelings of people.

That approach to The Word, does a disservice IMO to the proper study of the future events which are going to affect everybody; and are in the Bible for a purpose; to forewarn, and to resist the enemy; who wants it to be disregarded; so that he can work without hindrance!

Your comments such as "did John count" this or that; are to do a disservice to the Holy spirit; who is the author of Scripture!
John was only the scribe!

There is no doubt, that Revelation and OT prophecy are not easy reading; as the many disputes on the Board show; but, their is a commonality of purpose despite the disputes, which binds the participants, as we all feel the urge to take the Bible as it has been given to us by our God; and not to "explain" it away, as "allegoric"; which I have no doubt is not the purpose God our Father gave it to us!!

The Roman Church issues the same message as you have given, as also the C of E; however the Eastern Orthodox are literal, such as the great Apostle Paul would do, if he was here now!

In summary; I have to go against you on this issue, and also say, that it has surprised me that you hold this view!

The Bible, God's Word to us, His Word made flesh, is written the way it is for the very purpose of informing us and warning us. Satan would have us believe that it is allegoric!

See: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Floyd.

 

[Wormwood]

Enoch, thanks for your reply.

Are you suggesting that the advent of Christ and the preaching of the Gospel is of little consequence to Satan? Christ crushed his head and Rev 20 only says that he was prohibited from "deceiving the nations" not the absolution of evil.

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=12pt]CHAPTER 20 [/SIZE]



[SIZE=14pt]NOTE: (Jan. 2014)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The final dealing of God with Satan and his angels and Satan’s earthly servants! The Millennial Reign of Christ/God; after which is the general resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgement; followed by the termination of death and the grave![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]These events are clearly just prior to the Millennial Reign of Christ and God (“His Name One”), from Jerusalem. There is much speculation as to the timing of these events worldwide amongst Christians. No one knows the timing other than the “Father in Heaven” (Matt. 24 etc.); however, we are told to “watch”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The fact is that Israel celebrates its 70th anniversary in 2018, of the declaration of the “State of Israel;” of the United nations in 1948! Their Temple and Jerusalem was destroyed 70 years after our Lord’s birth! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]See also the importance of 7 and 10 in App. 10 of the Companion Bible![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt] V.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](b)bottomless pit [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and a great chain in his hand.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.2http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and bound him a thousand years.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (c)set a seal [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]till[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the thousand years should be fulfilled:[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]after that he must be loosed a little season.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Satan is now helpless to fight or resist after his time has expired. This angel is fixed in purpose, the binding of Satan with chains, and locking him away, in the “bottomless pit”![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This translation in Interlinear as "abyss," i.e. "depths," but with same meaning.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c) This banishment/imprisoning of Satan, clearly has profound purpose. The remaining population of the world is about to experience 1000 years of freedom from his constant assault and deceit. Justice, fairness, truth, are all about to be meted out on the world's peoples, from Christ at Jerusalem, and Satan cannot be blamed for any of the misdeeds of the population during this period.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] The fallen nature of mankind is still in place during this period, and is clearly being highlighted for a purpose, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Millennial Purpose[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] (See also Rev. 9:1,2,3,11, and notes.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The fact that Satan is released again for a short time, at the end of the 1000 year period, clearly is again for purpose. Heavenly creation especially, as well as human kind, have to be reminded of the utter devastation of Satan's deceit, falsehood and lies, as 1000 years is a long time, and human memory short. (See[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Chp. 12:12(a) (b) (c.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.4http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]thrones,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]they sat on them, and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]judgement[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] was given to them; and the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (b)souls [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]of them that were [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]beheaded for[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the witness of Jesus[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]their foreheads, or on their hands;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](c)The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. [/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]This is the first resurrection.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.6http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](d)Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death[/SIZE] hath no power. (e)But they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "They sat on them;" (Dr. Bullinger Comp. page 1920, "The Father and Christ, Chp. 3:21, and heavenly beings associated with them [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as assessors, Chp. 1:4.)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "Souls;" Interlinear 5590, derived from 5594; which is by implication "SPIRIT," as opposed to "a living soul," which is body + spirit of life = soul! These are the "Overcomers," of Chp. 2:26.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This resurrection is the first of the Millennial period, it concerns the "Overcomers," of the early Chapters of Revelation and probably those of Dan. 12:2,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and in the opinion of the writers is a totally separate event to the "translation," of believers, prior to the wrath of God, (1 Thess. 4:13-17) (Phil. 3:11.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See 20:14.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Rev. 5:10.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.7http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And when the thousand years are over, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.8http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And shall go out [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]to deceive the nations[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] which are in the four quarters of the earth, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Gog and Magog, to gather them together to [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]battle: the number of whom is the sand of the sea.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Satan allowed again to do his worst, for a defined period[/SIZE] (short.)
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Gog and Magog, apparently an inclusive term for all Gentile nations; East (Gog,) West (Magog.) The destruction of GOG and MAGOG, Ezk. 39, is pre-millennial, (see Ezk. 39:25) (Comp. p. 1911,) therefore the post Millennial comment here, as mentioned are probably the descendants of the original Gog and Magog! See:[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]Gog and Magog[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Again against Israel,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and again attempting to[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] deceive [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the nations of the world, and is a reminder to the nations that Satan is destruction, deceit, pain, anguish, and all evil of every sort, inflicted on humankind, and heavenly creation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.9http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And they went up over the breadth of the land and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]encircled the camp of the saints and the beloved city[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]:[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and fire came down from God out of heaven, and destroyed them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] As soon as Satan again threatens Israel, this time the time is right to destroy the anti-Israel, anti God, armies of the world, without delay![/SIZE] His imprisonment had not had any effect; and now God is seen to destroy him, to avoid a repeat of his earlier devastations on earth with humankind, and prior to Gen. 1:1.
[SIZE=12pt](b) See 9:17(a). 11:5(a.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.10http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the devil[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] that deceived them was cast into the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]lake of fire[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and brimstone, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]where the beast and the false prophet are,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and they shall be tormented day and night to the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Age of the Ages.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Satan finally dealt with, never to return! This "lake of fire," was prepared for Satan and his angels, and those of Satan’s people who persecuted Israel and Christians; and is (age abiding "App. 151"), and who were sent there at the Judgement of "sheep and goats;" Matt. 25:41. (See: also Rev. 14:9-11)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.11http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I saw [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great white throne, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and Him That sat on it, from[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Whose face[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](b)the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.12http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And I saw the dead, the great and small standing before the throne; and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](d)the books were opened:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and another book was opened, which is [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the book of life:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This is the so called "great white throne judgement," which commences after the end of the Millennial reign and after the final demise of Satan.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Chp. 21:1.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]All people that ever lived who were not in the first resurrection, or the Rapture of The Body of Christ, or of Overcomers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "The books;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"these books," i.e. records are kept on all humans, in heaven. They do not apply to those of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]THE BODY OF CHRIST, or THE OVERCOMERS [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]of earlier chapters. The results of these records are the judgements about to be given in these verses. The second death applies to those people whose life actions are against good conscience, in the case of Gentiles, or the Law of Moses, in the case of Jews, (Rom. 2:12-16,) and is the penalty for those failing! (See: Matt. 10:28.) See App. 131; “fires of destruction”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Reference has been made to these books from the earliest record in Holy Writ. Some of these are; Ex. 32:32-33, Dan.7:10, 12:1. Rev. 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 20:15, 21:27.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.13http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html#V.13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And the sea gave up the dead which are in it; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and death and the (b)grave delivered up the dead which are in them: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and they were judged each one according to their works.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Vs. 11 and 12 and notes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This in A.D. 1611 translated incorrectly [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"hell;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the concept of hell is Babylonian and Greek in origin (Pythagoras) and adopted by the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Roman church,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and later by the Church of England and other Protestant groups. The Greek word "HADES," renders (Str. No. 86,) a place or state of departed souls, (i.e. bodies) i.e. grave, “hell”. This led the Roman church to develop the concept of "purgatory," a place between life, and heaven or "hell." This was due to the Roman adoption of the Greek concept of soul, i.e. as a separate continuing entity to the body, which ignores the clear definition given in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Genesis, 2:7, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]where God "formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]living soul." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The soul therefore is the result of the dust + the breath of life [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]= the soul![/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The Roman error has led to the awful practice of praying by Roman Catholics for "the souls of departed loved ones," which leads them to believe that their prayers can overcome the departed ones sins, and gain them access to heaven! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This terrible teaching negates the work of Our Lord on The Cross,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and millions of people worldwide are thus misled. This is part of the "Harlot," of Chps. 17 and 18 etc.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]It is certain that the subject of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"hell," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]has become more mixed together with the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“grave,”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] mistranslation. See: [/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]Hell; [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Hell's Punishment? (Separate study) [/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.14 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And death and the grave were cast into[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)See Chapter 12:11(c); and Chapter 20:6.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.15http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter20.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/SIZE]

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood:
I have to say that I disagree completely with almost all you have said on this subject.

The "spiritualisation" of all the events you quote is common in many churches; and is condoned by the "Authorities", to avoid upsetting the feelings of people.

That approach to The Word, does a disservice IMO to the proper study of the future events which are going to affect everybody; and are in the Bible for a purpose; to forewarn, and to resist the enemy; who wants it to be disregarded; so that he can work without hindrance!

Your comments such as "did John count" this or that; are to do a disservice to the Holy spirit; who is the author of Scripture!
John was only the scribe!

There is no doubt, that Revelation and OT prophecy are not easy reading; as the many disputes on the Board show; but, their is a commonality of purpose despite the disputes, which binds the participants, as we all feel the urge to take the Bible as it has been given to us by our God; and not to "explain" it away, as "allegoric"; which I have no doubt is not the purpose God our Father gave it to us!!

The Roman Church issues the same message as you have given, as also the C of E; however the Eastern Orthodox are literal, such as the great Apostle Paul would do, if he was here now!

In summary; I have to go against you on this issue, and also say, that it has surprised me that you hold this view!

The Bible, God's Word to us, His Word made flesh, is written the way it is for the very purpose of informing us and warning us. Satan would have us believe that it is allegoric!

See: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Floyd.

Floyd,

Thank you for your response. I probably only have time to respond to the comments in the quote above.
I don't know what you mean by "spiritualization" and that being condoned by the "authorities." What authorities? What do you mean by spiritualization? Are you saying there will be a literal dragon walking the earth in the end times with beasts that have seven heads and ten horns that wear ten crowns on their horns? Where do we draw the line and who decides who is being "literal" and what constitutes "spiritualization"? Would you say the woman with twelve stars who is clothed with the sun and a moon under her feet that sprouts wings and flies away is symbolic or literal? Why is it that the things you believe to be symbols are just a natural reading, but the things I see is symbolic is doing a great tragedy to the text?

I would argue that my rendering of Revelation is much more fruitful. I think the enemy wants us wringing our hands as we think about future events and potential Antichrists rather than understanding the real call to repentance and changing allegiance that the book of Revelation provides. Remember, this message was written to first century churches and has significance for every generation. It is not a crystal ball for predicting the future. It is prescriptive, not primarily predictive.

My point in saying "did John count" is not to minimize the validity of what is written. Rather, I think we miss the Holy Spirit's point if we are more caught up in the quantity of the things numbered rather than the imagery the numbers represent. For instance, Jesus does not have seven eyes, because he has grown 5 more in his resurrected body. He didn't sprout seven horns either and shoots swords from his mouth. John saw these images, no doubt, but the images communicate a greater reality. Christ sees all. He has all power and authority. His conquers his enemies with the words from his mouth. If we simply limit the numbers to a quantity rather than the meaning of the number, we lose the real force of the numbers and pictures. I think this is true of the 1,000 years as well. These numbers are meant to be weighed, not counted.

I understand your concern and desire to embrace the Word as wholly accurate and true. I share that concern. However, I think we must embrace the way Scripture was written as well as what was written. If Jesus tells a parable, we understand it is a story that makes a point. If we read a Proverb, we understand that this is a word of wisdom as to how life works and God's insights for wise living. If we read one of Daniel's visions of beasts, rams, leopards and bears or statues made of different metals, we recognize these things are pictures of a greater reality and are interpreted as such. Revelation falls into the latter category. If we miss that, then we will also miss the real power of the message and get caught up in future predictions and trying to harmonize present events with John's visions. I believe many are worried about microchips, tattoos and Russia when they, in reality, are walking around with the mark of the beast on them this very moment.

 

[shturt678]

Only raising the bar a little regarding the "7" different endings of the world in Revelation thus Revelation must be viewed synchronous, eg, Rev.6:12-17, ie, the first ending of the world followed by six more endings - impossible to view Revelation chronologically.

Old Jack's opinion

btw "Amillennialism" valid! The 1,000 years in Rev.20:2 began the Cross where Satan was personally bound till Rev.20:7.

 

[Floyd]

Floyd,

Thank you for your response. I probably only have time to respond to the comments in the quote above.
I don't know what you mean by "spiritualization" and that being condoned by the "authorities." What authorities? What do you mean by spiritualization? Are you saying there will be a literal dragon walking the earth in the end times with beasts that have seven heads and ten horns that wear ten crowns on their horns? Where do we draw the line and who decides who is being "literal" and what constitutes "spiritualization"? Would you say the woman with twelve stars who is clothed with the sun and a moon under her feet that sprouts wings and flies away is symbolic or literal? Why is it that the things you believe to be symbols are just a natural reading, but the things I see is symbolic is doing a great tragedy to the text?

Hi Wormwood;
"spiritualisation" is a term not much used now, but simply means to water down or away from real meaning. It was used a lot in the 19th Cent.

"Authorities" in this context are the heads of churches; i.e. Roman or others.

Regarding the "dragon"of course not literal in the Medieval sense; but much worse in the real sense of Satan! It is one of the descriptions of him in scripture, but I think you know that!?

I don't understand why you would trivialise the rest of this comment?

Of course there is "symbolic" language used in many parts of Scripture; we who study and love the Bible know that. But; it cannot be taken beyond its intended limits given to it by the Holy spirit. It is incumbent on us as spiritual entities to easily see the demarcations!

By the way, this subject is too important to not give it its necessary time and effort; and the more so as you started the Thread; if I may say so.



I would argue that my rendering of Revelation is much more fruitful. I think the enemy wants us wringing our hands as we think about future events and potential Antichrists rather than understanding the real call to repentance and changing allegiance that the book of Revelation provides. Remember, this message was written to first century churches and has significance for every generation. It is not a crystal ball for predicting the future. It is prescriptive, not primarily predictive.


I am well aware of your above points; and also of the origins!

The "call to repentance" is not involved in these points; that has been ongoing since the Cross.

Why do mention a "crystal ball"? I disagree with you on the last statement; it is descriptive and predictive!



My point in saying "did John count" is not to minimize the validity of what is written. Rather, I think we miss the Holy Spirit's point if we are more caught up in the quantity of the things numbered rather than the imagery the numbers represent. For instance, Jesus does not have seven eyes, because he has grown 5 more in his resurrected body. He didn't sprout seven horns either and shoots swords from his mouth. John saw these images, no doubt, but the images communicate a greater reality. Christ sees all. He has all power and authority. His conquers his enemies with the words from his mouth. If we simply limit the numbers to a quantity rather than the meaning of the number, we lose the real force of the numbers and pictures. I think this is true of the 1,000 years as well. These numbers are meant to be weighed, not counted.


I think these points are covered in the above reply.



I understand your concern and desire to embrace the Word as wholly accurate and true. I share that concern. However, I think we must embrace the way Scripture was written as well as what was written. If Jesus tells a parable, we understand it is a story that makes a point. If we read a Proverb, we understand that this is a word of wisdom as to how life works and God's insights for wise living. If we read one of Daniel's visions of beasts, rams, leopards and bears or statues made of different metals, we recognize these things are pictures of a greater reality and are interpreted as such. Revelation falls into the latter category. If we miss that, then we will also miss the real power of the message and get caught up in future predictions and trying to harmonize present events with John's visions. I believe many are worried about microchips, tattoos and Russia when they, in reality, are walking around with the mark of the beast on them this very moment.


The Word is "wholly accurate and true".

Your explanation of how to understand it; I could understand more if you were talking to Grade students. On this Board, there is much experience and study, as well as not so much; so, I am trying to understand your words as trying to accommodate all!

Regarding your comment re "chips,tattoos, etc", there have been, and will continue to be, many "eccentric" views and interpretations of particularly prophecy; but, that does not stop, nor should it stop, the valid and necessary true study of Revelation and the Word in general!

I also disagree with your inference that "to try to harmonize present events with John's vision" is not a valid or recommended activity!?

As a leader on this Board; I would have thought you would want to encourage such study; it is a natural progression from the early stages of seeking meaning, salvation, assurance, and its relevance to the future.

I have to say, that I am still puzzled by your initial post.



Floyd.

 

[Wormwood]

Floyd,

Thanks for the above comments. I understand you are puzzled by my comments as I am with yours. I find it strange that you would claim I am "spiritualizing" Revelation when you have just declared the "dragon" to be Satan and woman with wings to be obvious symbolism. So where do you draw the line between what is "spiritualizing" and what is a "taking beyond its intended limits." Who determines these limits? The entire book of Revelation is a vision, so it is not as if we are moving from narration, to parable, to vision, to narration. The entire book is an "apocalypse" or unveiling of heavenly things. Of course these things are "spiritual." John is revealing images of heaven, the throneroom, demons appearing as frogs, beasts, dragons, angels, and so forth.

I think the issue you are having is that assuming because something is "spiritual" it is not real. I would disagree with that assessment and claim that spiritual things are more real than physical ones. I agree that the dragon is Satan and Satan is very much a real being. However, my point is, will he really come out of the sea and roam around the earth chasing a woman with wings? Will there really be a beast that comes out of the earth with multiple heads and horns and crowns? I am certain your answer would be, "No, these are symbolic images of spiritual or national realities." So why is it we can interpret the dragon, beast, woman, locusts, angels, prostitute, Babylon, seven eyes, seven horns, ten crowns and so forth as symbols, but when I suggest the 1,000 years is symbolic I have committed hermeneutical harry carry? I think you assume that everything you believe is within the intended limits and everything you disagree with goes beyond the intended limits. Can you explain to me how you have determined these limits?

Also, I object to your claim that I am somehow influenced in my interpretation because of the "Authorities" who condone it. I strive to interpret the Bible according to its historical and literary context. My views are not molded by what these "Authorities" believe. In fact, I think this is somewhat of a smoke screen. The reality is that pretty much the entire church throughout history was either Amillennial or historical premillennial (which is nearly identical to Amillennialism except that they believe in a literal 1,000 years). So while you may claim it is the view of the "Authorities," I would claim it has been the view, or very similar to the view of the church throughout history (until the 1800s).

Finally, I am not trying to talk down to anyone. I hope I do not come across that way. I do try to communicate clearly, especially when it comes to a complex book of Scripture such as Revelation. I simply find it troubling that many Christians allow their entire eschatological view to be shaped by a very embedded reading of Revelation 20 that pretty much goes against every other Scripture that speaks of the Second Coming. I prefer to allow the clear teachings of the Second Coming to guide those that are more obscure. Jesus, Paul and Peter are very clear on their teaching of the Second Coming and I think my view embraces this teaching in a very literal way.

So, allow me ask you a couple questions Floyd:

Where do you see a "secret rapture" in the book of Revelation?
Where do you see a "seven year great tribulation" in Revelation?
Where do you see a rebuilt Temple where God calls Israel to reinstitute animal sacrifice in Revelation?

 

[shturt678]

Only raising the bar a little regarding the "7" different endings of the world in Revelation thus Revelation must be viewed synchronous, eg, Rev.6:12-17, ie, the first ending of the world followed by six more endings - impossible to view Revelation chronologically.

Old Jack's opinion

btw "Amillennialism" valid! The 1,000 years in Rev.20:2 began the Cross where Satan was personally bound till Rev.20:7.

Thank you folks for caring!

Rising the bar another notch. Rev.20:2, 3 From me: The Scriptures speaks about only one binding of Satan that interfered most decisively with his personally deceiving the nations,ie, Lk.11:21, 22. This personal binding of Satan meant that he should not prevent this heralding of the gospel to all the nations until Rev.20:7, ie, not too far off. Again, once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the personal deception of Satan. Only one nation alone had the Word.

The context of Scriptures defends "Amillennialism." At the precious Cross, this interference with the dragon (Satan) enables the brethren to conquer him. It stopped the dragon from direct invasion of the world, ie, of the nations. He in his own person as the dragon cannot still deceive the nations; he is restricted to the use of the two beasts and the whore (Only with the "Amillennialist" view will one grasp how the two beast and whore operate, eg, this moment.

Old Jack's view

btw the 1,000 years is symbolic (Rev.1:1, "signified") that began at the Cross and ends at Rev.20:7.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Many American Christians thinks they are the center of the universe

They think everything written in the bible is about them and for them

However Jesus returns to Jerusalem Israel

Not to Cheyenne Wyoming

 

[Floyd]

Thanks for the above comments. I understand you are puzzled by my comments as I am with yours. I find it strange that you would claim I am "spiritualizing" Revelation when you have just declared the "dragon" to be Satan and woman with wings to be obvious symbolism. So where do you draw the line between what is "spiritualizing" and what is a "taking beyond its intended limits." Who determines these limits? The entire book of Revelation is a vision, so it is not as if we are moving from narration, to parable, to vision, to narration. The entire book is an "apocalypse" or unveiling of heavenly things. Of course these things are "spiritual." John is revealing images of heaven, the throneroom, demons appearing as frogs, beasts, dragons, angels, and so forth.

It is clear that the "limits" are individual; depending on bias, study, etc. I emphasise that there can only be one Truth; which we all strive towards, in Christ! I am sure that you would not expect all to agree with your view on the limits, as I would not mine!
However; like the Trinity subject, this one will be keenly fought, which often draws new information, if we can keep a clear head, and a cap on our emotions.


I think the issue you are having is that assuming because something is "spiritual" it is not real. I would disagree with that assessment and claim that spiritual things are more real than physical ones.

I do not have an "issue" as you describe it. You have assumed wrongly! I agree with you that the "spiritual" is more real than the physical; after all, "God is Spirit"; (and all who worship Him, must worship in spirit and in truth)! Please excuse this last quote, it is one of my favourites!


I agree that the dragon is Satan and Satan is very much a real being. However, my point is, will he really come out of the sea and roam around the earth chasing a woman with wings? Will there really be a beast that comes out of the earth with multiple heads and horns and crowns? I am certain your answer would be, "No, these are symbolic images of spiritual or national realities."

Yes, you right, these descriptions are OT in definition, particularly Daniel.

So why is it we can interpret the dragon, beast, woman, locusts, angels, prostitute, Babylon, seven eyes, seven horns, ten crowns and so forth as symbols, but when I suggest the 1,000 years is symbolic I have committed hermeneutical harry carry?

I don't think you are suicidal! The reading of Rev.20 IMO, is clear re. the literal 1000 year Reign of Christ Messiah/God from Jerusalem "and their Name One".
That is my opinion, you don't have to accept it. You did ask for comments!


I think you assume that everything you believe is within the intended limits and everything you disagree with goes beyond the intended limits. Can you explain to me how you have determined these limits?

Can you? No, it is individual before the Lord, in sincerity. It is a function of individual study, background, dedication, etc. leading to sincerely held conviction!
In our case, many years of prayerful study, mixed with painful experience; in which the Lord has given support for our heartfelt yearnings to be answered!
Obviously; that may not ring true to your convictions; which we expect!

Also, I object to your claim that I am somehow influenced in my interpretation because of the "Authorities" who condone it.

You are wrong! I did not claim what you state, please reread the words! I am a little surprised at your tendency here to take the comments personally!?


I strive to interpret the Bible according to its historical and literary context. My views are not molded by what these "Authorities" believe. In fact, I think this is somewhat of a smoke screen.

I do not doubt your sincerity Wormwood!

The reality is that pretty much the entire church throughout history was either Amillennial or historical premillennial (which is nearly identical to Amillennialism except that they believe in a literal 1,000 years). So while you may claim it is the view of the "Authorities," I would claim it has been the view, or very similar to the view of the church throughout history (until the 1800s).

Yes; that's right; J.N.Darby was one of the first to suggest alternatives to the rigidity previously propagated!

Finally, I am not trying to talk down to anyone. I hope I do not come across that way.

I did not wish to give that impression, I was attempting to try to understand why you were giving an ABC lesson; so I assumed you were thinking of the broad spectrum of the Board. Sorry if it hit a nerve!

I do try to communicate clearly, especially when it comes to a complex book of Scripture such as Revelation. I simply find it troubling that many Christians allow their entire eschatological view to be shaped by a very embedded reading of Revelation 20 that pretty much goes against every other Scripture that speaks of the Second Coming. I prefer to allow the clear teachings of the Second Coming to guide those that are more obscure. Jesus, Paul and Peter are very clear on their teaching of the Second Coming and I think my view embraces this teaching in a very literal way .

What is missing IMO is more understanding generally of what applies to "the Body of Christ", and that which applies to Israel. there is a very poor understanding worldwide regarding this differentiation; which answers many questions when properly applied. This leads to much misteaching, and therefore confusion in many groups and people.

So, allow me ask you a couple questions Floyd:

Where do you see a "secret rapture" in the book of Revelation?
I don't.

Where do you see a "seven year great tribulation" in Revelation?
I don't, I have said repeatedly on this Board, that the so called Tribulation is 3.5 years in duration; and is refered to in the OT as "Jacob's Trouble"!

Where do you see a rebuilt Temple where God calls Israel to reinstitute animal sacrifice in Revelation?
I don't; its description is in Ezekiel, and is there in detail. An interesting fact is that Temple will be 1/7th larger than Solomon's. I have had conversations with Orthodox Jews on this point, as to why that should be; but to no avail; they don't know either. But; we can be sure that there is a good reason!

The Jew, the Gentile, and Christ: (Separate study)

Millennial Purpose (Separate study)

Kingdom of Priest unto God (Separate study)

Replacement Theology (Separate study)


Floyd

 

[Wormwood]

Many American Christians thinks they are the center of the universe
They think everything written in the bible is about them and for them
However Jesus returns to Jerusalem Israel
Not to Cheyenne Wyoming

I agree. Would you care to expound on this as it relates to eschatology?

Floyd,

It is clear that the "limits" are individual; depending on bias, study, etc. I emphasise that there can only be one Truth; which we all strive towards, in Christ! I am sure that you would not expect all to agree with your view on the limits, as I would not mine!
However; like the Trinity subject, this one will be keenly fought, which often draws new information, if we can keep a clear head, and a cap on our emotions.

First, let me agree with you that, while this is an important subject, it should not be a cause for divisiveness or bitterness. I appreciate your concern and desire in that regard. I also agree that we have different lines we draw in our interpretations. I would say, however, that proper hermeneutics causes us to be able to explain why and how we draw such limits and where. I do not think biblical interpretation is arbitrary. I think there are rules for interpretation just as there are rules for understanding any written language. We should be able to explain why something is symbolic and why it is not. I have endeavored to do so based on the genre of Revelation as well as how numbers are used throughout the book. I think our hermeneutics should be consistent and not mere guesswork. Otherwise, how can we teach others to understand the Bible? Does this make sense?

I do not have an "issue" as you describe it. You have assumed wrongly!

I apologize. Perhaps "issue" was the wrong word there. I was only referring to what was puzzling or troubling to you about my views on Revelation 20.

I don't think you are suicidal! The reading of Rev.20 IMO, is clear re. the literal 1000 year Reign of Christ Messiah/God from Jerusalem "and their Name One".
That is my opinion, you don't have to accept it. You did ask for comments!

Ha! Well I was referring more to self-destructive hermeneutics, not suicide . Yes, I did ask for comments for the purpose of opening some discussion to explore these issues in more depth. Were you not wanting me to respond to your comments?

You are wrong! I did not claim what you state, please reread the words! I am a little surprised at your tendency here to take the comments personally!?

I hope you are not reading anger or frustration into my writing. I certainly am not upset at all. You said,
The "spiritualisation" of all the events you quote is common in many churches; and is condoned by the "Authorities", to avoid upsetting the feelings of people.
I don't know why else you would add this to your response to my post if this was not somehow a reflection on my views that they are based out of an embracing what is "common" and "condoned" to "avoid upsetting the feelings of people." If this is not what you meant then I certainly misread you. However, I don't know what else this comment could mean in response to what I originally wrote. Again, I am not upset. No nerves were struck. I wouldn't write on controversial topics if I was easily upset by those who disagree with me .

What is missing IMO is more understanding generally of what applies to "the Body of Christ", and that which applies to Israel. there is a very poor understanding worldwide regarding this differentiation; which answers many questions when properly applied. This leads to much misteaching, and therefore confusion in many groups and people.

Well, I think this is a key area in which the church throughout the centuries and I would disagree with Mr. Darby and modern eschatology that sees the Church as merely a side-note or parenthesis to God's primary work of rescuing national Israel. This may be a separate study, but I think the NT is overwhelming in the way it applies OT promises to Israel to the faithful in Christ. Paul claims that the church consists of Jews and those who have been grafted in to Israel by faith in Christ. The church was viewed as "true Israel" by all early Christians. In fact, the Christians for nearly a decade after the resurrection were only Israelites! This renting of the promises God has for the Church and Israel is a modern invention that is found nowhere in the NT. Rather, Paul claims that the dividing wall of hostility has been broken down by the cross of Jesus. There is no more Jew or Gentile. Why would we erect barriers that Christ has broken down? The Bible is clear that God does not show favoritism but all who put their faith in Christ are children of Abraham. Why would we then argue that God plays favorites for national Israel and has a separate plan for them than he does the Church?

You see, this is my primary issue with dispensationalism. It develops an eschatological view by cramming bits of Ezekiel into bits of Revelation with bits of Daniel and Isaiah sprinkled on top. We must read each book in its own context and allow them to speak independently before we try to smoosh things together to develop an end times timeline. As I said, Revelation is not about an end times timeline. It is a message to suffering Christians who are being pressed to compromise their faith in a world that is hostile to Christ and is full of idolatry and immorality. We are missing the entire point of the revelation John was given if we try to throw it all into some future period some time that 99.99999% of Christians throughout history will not live to see. Such a view makes most of the book entirely useless to those to whom it was originally written.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Arnie Manitoba , 23 April 2014 - 08:04 AM

Many American Christians thinks they are the center of the universe

They think everything written in the bible is about them and for them

However Jesus returns to Jerusalem Israel

Not to Cheyenne Wyoming

I agree. Would you care to expound on this as it relates to eschatology?

It would be just as fair to say ...

Many Roman Catholics think they are the center of the universe

They think everything written in the bible is about them and for them

However Jesus returns to Jerusalem Israel

Not to The Vatican in Rome

Point is , by "removing" Israel from prophecy and "replacing" it with western Christianity completely bastardizes the scriptures .... thus it affects eschatology.

After jerusalem fell in AD 70 and the handful of Jews were scattered to the nations it was hard to fit them into future events .... the only way to make it work was to allegorize and spiritualize "Israel" and pretend it was the christian church

It was wrong then , and is wrong now.

We are the Gentile Christian Church grafted into The Olive Tree of Israel

 

[Wormwood]

It would be just as fair to say ...


Point is , by "removing" Israel from prophecy and "replacing" it with western Christianity completely bastardizes the scriptures .... thus it affects eschatology.

After jerusalem fell in AD 70 and the handful of Jews were scattered to the nations it was hard to fit them into future events .... the only way to make it work was to allegorize and spiritualize "Israel" and pretend it was the christian church

It was wrong then , and is wrong now.

We are the Gentile Christian Church grafted into The Olive Tree of Israel

Well I would argue the opposite. I think dispensationalism is a new invention of the Western church that has been embraced by Christians who act as if the prophecies in the Bible are a tabloid with predictions about America and Israel rather than Jesus Christ and the people he purchased with his precious blood.

The church never embraced this view. The early church was predominately Jewish! To try to divorce the Church from Israel is completely foreign to the writings of the NT authors. Jesus IS true Israel (out of Egypt I have called my Son) and those who are "in Christ" are Abraham's offspring and heirs according to the promise. Paul could not be any more clear on this in Romans and Galatians. Peter uses the terms designated for national Israel in the OT (chosen people, spiritual house, holy priesthood, chosen race, people of God's own possession, etc) to refer to the church, and the core audience is Gentile (1 Peter 2:10). Moreover, the author of Hebrews is quite clear that the Hebrews that reject Christ are no different than the Israelites who were faithless, disobedient and therefore died in the desert and never entered God's rest.

Paul was persecuted by those who sought to make God's blessing all about flesh rather than faith. Paul considered all of his boasting in the flesh as dung in comparison to knowing Christ. Why is it that there are those who want to turn back to flesh, sacrifices and a previous covenant that was intended to point to Christ? ALL of the Law and Prophets testify to Christ and his work (not just some). I find it to be a true disservice to the cross the way some exalt flesh over and above faith.

 

[shturt678]

Well I would argue the opposite. I think dispensationalism is a new invention of the Western church that has been embraced by Christians who act as if the prophecies in the Bible are a tabloid with predictions about America and Israel rather than Jesus Christ and the people he purchased with his precious blood.

The church never embraced this view. The early church was predominately Jewish! To try to divorce the Church from Israel is completely foreign to the writings of the NT authors. Jesus IS true Israel (out of Egypt I have called my Son) and those who are "in Christ" are Abraham's offspring and heirs according to the promise. Paul could not be any more clear on this in Romans and Galatians. Peter uses the terms designated for national Israel in the OT (chosen people, spiritual house, holy priesthood, chosen race, people of God's own possession, etc) to refer to the church, and the core audience is Gentile (1 Peter 2:10). Moreover, the author of Hebrews is quite clear that the Hebrews that reject Christ are no different than the Israelites who were faithless, disobedient and therefore died in the desert and never entered God's rest.

Paul was persecuted by those who sought to make God's blessing all about flesh rather than faith. Paul considered all of his boasting in the flesh as dung in comparison to knowing Christ. Why is it that there are those who want to turn back to flesh, sacrifices and a previous covenant that was intended to point to Christ? ALL of the Law and Prophets testify to Christ and his work (not just some). I find it to be a true disservice to the cross the way some exalt flesh over and above faith.

Thank you for caring!

Rarely do I agree to agree, ie, Amen!

Old, normally agreeing to disagree, Jack

 

[Floyd]

From Arnie Manitoba:

Point is , by "removing" Israel from prophecy and "replacing" it with western Christianity completely bastardizes the scriptures .... thus it affects eschatology.

After jerusalem fell in AD 70 and the handful of Jews were scattered to the nations it was hard to fit them into future events .... the only way to make it work was to allegorize and spiritualize "Israel" and pretend it was the christian church

It was wrong then , and is wrong now.

We are the Gentile Christian Church grafted into The Olive Tree of Israel

We agree here Arnie!
See: Replacement Theology (Separate study)


From Floyd.

What is missing IMO is more understanding generally of what applies to "the Body of Christ", and that which applies to Israel. there is a very poor understanding worldwide regarding this differentiation; which answers many questions when properly applied. This leads to much misteaching, and therefore confusion in many groups and people.

SEE: Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ: (Separate study )


From Wormwood.
Well, I think this is a key area in which the church throughout the centuries and I would disagree with Mr. Darby and modern eschatology that sees the Church as merely a side-note or parenthesis to God's primary work of rescuing national Israel. This may be a separate study, but I think the NT is overwhelming in the way it applies OT promises to Israel to the faithful in Christ. Paul claims that the church consists of Jews and those who have been grafted in to Israel by faith in Christ. The church was viewed as "true Israel" by all early Christians. In fact, the Christians for nearly a decade after the resurrection were only Israelites! This renting of the promises God has for the Church and Israel is a modern invention that is found nowhere in the NT. Rather, Paul claims that the dividing wall of hostility has been broken down by the cross of Jesus. There is no more Jew or Gentile. Why would we erect barriers that Christ has broken down? The Bible is clear that God does not show favoritism but all who put their faith in Christ are children of Abraham. Why would we then argue that God plays favorites for national Israel and has a separate plan for them than he does the Church?

You see, this is my primary issue with dispensationalism. It develops an eschatological view by cramming bits of Ezekiel into bits of Revelation with bits of Daniel and Isaiah sprinkled on top. We must read each book in its own context and allow them to speak independently before we try to smoosh things together to develop an end times timeline. As I said, Revelation is not about an end times timeline. It is a message to suffering Christians who are being pressed to compromise their faith in a world that is hostile to Christ and is full of idolatry and immorality. We are missing the entire point of the revelation John was given if we try to throw it all into some future period some time that 99.99999% of Christians throughout history will not live to see. Such a view makes most of the book entirely useless to those to whom it was originally written.


From Floyd.
Taking each above: of the highlighted points above:
The church is not "a mere side note" as you describe it. It is the result of Israel's failure to accept their Messiah King; Christ Jesus!
The change was at Acts28:25-28!
See: Jesus and the Kingdom (Separate study)



The fact of the displacement of Israel by the early church (fathers), does not make it a correct policy! The fathers were all Gentiles; and the shocking comment of one of them to a Jew sums up the error:
"
[SIZE=14pt]The roots of Replacement Theology go back to the early Church, and became the seed bed of 'Christian anti-Semitism' to quote C.H. Wagner. The so-called Church[/SIZE] Fathers (all Gentiles) are initially responsible for this. The teaching that 'the Church had replaced Israel' has become pernicious, and in part is responsible for the Nazi Holocaust! The Pogroms of the last 2000 years are also of the same root! The declaration of Justin Martyr (AD 160) to a Jew "the Scriptures are not yours, but ours", together with others of his near contemporary's, give the total anti-God and anti-Christ flavour of this Satanic and erroneous teaching since the formation of the Gentile Church!

Wormwood:
"This renting of the promises God has for the Church and Israel is a modern invention that is found nowhere in the NT".

Floyd:
The "modern invention" as you call it, is correction of the gross error of the Gentile church, strengthened by Constantine!


Wormwood:
" children of Abraham".

Floyd.
No; complete error! Your understanding of the Jewish heritage does not seem to exist!

Wormwood:
"dispensationalism".

Floyd:
Paul used the term "administrations", 1Cor.12:5; or services.

Wormwood:
"by cramming bits of Ezekiel into bits of Revelation with bits of Daniel and Isaiah sprinkled on top. We must read each book in its own context and allow them to speak independently before we try to smoosh things together to develop an end times timeline. As I said, Revelation is not about an end times timeline"

Floyd:
This is (in my opinion) is gross error; and is why the ancient church (got at by Satan) brought such restriction onto the Body of Christ, through into the Roman Church with its pagan teaching, until the bravery of Luther under Holy Spirit duress!
All people worldwide should be free to study scripture, to understand the links between OT and NT!
The current situation in the confused world, is because of the comment you made here.
Revelation is about culminations of Almighty God; linked to His many promises in OT; especially those to the Jewish Patriarchs! To say otherwise is to go against God and His Word!!
The events of Revelation are primarily Jewish, with severe consequences for the Gentile nations who remain, and who persecute Israel, and reject Messiah Christ Jesus!


Wormwood:
"Such a view makes most of the book entirely useless to those to whom it was originally written"

Floyd:
Not so; the slant you have put on your above reply, is a reinforcement of the errors of the early church!
Your position as a Moderator on this Board should make you and your comments less biased in my opinion. The position you take is retarding to true study of Scripture; 2Tim.3:16.

 

[Wormwood]

Taking each above: of the highlighted points above:
The church is not "a mere side note" as you describe it. It is the result of Israel's failure to accept their Messiah King; Christ Jesus!
The change was at Acts28:25-28!

Of course the church is a "side note" in such a paradigm. The teaching by dispensationalists is that, had Israel accepted Christ originally, the Church would have never been formed! I find this to be a complete disregard for God's purposes in Christ for both Jews and Gentiles. Furthermore, most of the NT epistles were written prior to Acts 28:25-28. In fact, Paul teaches in Romans that many of the Jews rejected Christ because the church opened the door for Gentiles to become part of God's people by grace through faith alone, and not according to the Jewish law. Thus, "stumbling" of many of the Jewish people, according to Paul, was a result of the Gospel message as it pertained to Gentiles. It was the acceptance of the Gentiles through faith in Christ that caused the "stumbling" while you are arguing the opposite: that Gentiles were accepted only after many of the Jewish people stumbled.

“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:1–4, ESV)

Dispensationalism would suggest that the Gentiles were embraced only after the Jews had rejected Jesus. The entire notion of the Church being God's backup plan after the Jews had rejected Jesus is found nowhere in Scripture. It is an assumption picked out of the thin blue sky in an attempt to lionize Israel and diminish the Church.

Fathers (all Gentiles) are initially responsible for this. The teaching that 'the Church had replaced Israel' has become pernicious, and in part is responsible for the Nazi Holocaust! The Pogroms of the last 2000 years are also of the same root! The declaration of Justin Martyr (AD 160) to a Jew "the Scriptures are not yours, but ours", together with others of his near contemporary's, give the total anti-God and anti-Christ flavour of this Satanic and erroneous teaching since the formation of the Gentile Church!

Yes, by the 2nd and 3rd century, much of the Church was Gentile. There was also anti-Semitism in the church to be sure. However, many of the early church fathers rejected the anti-Semitism. Heretics like Marcion sought to eradicate any emphasis on the Jewish people by forming a canon of Scripture that minimized any focus on the Jewish people. Marcion was deemed a heretic and his canon was rejected outright. Yet, "Replacement Theology" (which I find to be an inaccurate term) is not akin to anti-Semitism. It would be anti-Semitism if believing Jews were rejected from the Church and that is clearly not the case either in the early church or throughout church history. A rejection of a Judeo-centric eschatology is not the same thing as racism or anti-Semitism. I think this quote sums up the issue quite well:

[SIZE=medium] Granted, some Amillennialists have been Anti-Semites. But Premillennialism is the eschatology of the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Mormons, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Premillennialism is frequently associated with the serious doctrinal error of Second Chance-ism. Many Premillennialists teach, in other words, that men will have a second chance to be saved after the Second Coming of Christ during the tribulation or the millennium. These are indisputable facts, but they do not mean that Premillennialism is cultic or leads necessarily to heresy or serious doctrinal error.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Reformed Baptist Theological Review 5, no. 1 (2008): 101–102.[/SIZE]

I think we need to be careful when we attempt to brand an entire theology or eschatology as racist. That is a serious charge and one that I find to be both untrue and offensive.

The "modern invention" as you call it, is correction of the gross error of the Gentile church, strengthened by Constantine!

Floyd, this sounds like the arguments Purity and Nodhead were making in their rejection of the Trinity. Why is it that every early church doctrine people disagree with is ultimately the result of Constantine and power politics that perverted Christianity? There is no evidence of this. All we know is that this is what the early church believed and they cited Scripture to affirm it. You sound like a defense attorney trying to discredit the entire 1st and 2nd century church in order to nullify their beliefs.

No; complete error! Your understanding of the Jewish heritage does not seem to exist!

I was simply quoting Paul in Galatians. I think your issue is with Paul's teachings and not with me. See the text I was quoting from below...

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” (Galatians 3:5–9, ESV)

Paul used the term "administrations", 1Cor.12:5; or services.

The context of this is "spiritual gifts" among a group of Gentile and Jewish believers (primarily Gentile in Corinth). This has nothing to do with dispensations throughout the ages as your eschatology teaches.

This is (in my opinion) is gross error; and is why the ancient church (got at by Satan) brought such restriction onto the Body of Christ, through into the Roman Church with its pagan teaching, until the bravery of Luther under Holy Spirit duress!

Floyd, your logic is perplexing. You claim the early church was anti-Semitic and then claim the tide was turned from the evil of the Roman Church by the bravery of Luther. Do you not know that Luther was an anti-Semite??? smh

Revelation is about culminations of Almighty God; linked to His many promises in OT; especially those to the Jewish Patriarchs! To say otherwise is to go against God and His Word!!
The events of Revelation are primarily Jewish, with severe consequences for the Gentile nations who remain, and who persecute Israel, and reject Messiah Christ Jesus!

Um, check the mailing address to the book of Revelation. I believe the address is to: Seven "CHURCHES" in Asia Minor. These were predominately Gentile churches. Moreover, Paul cites God's promise to Abraham's blessing to "many nations" was a promise to bless Gentiles through faith in Christ!!! This is what I mean. When the NT authors cite promises to the patriarchs, they show how they have been fulfilled through Christ to both Jews and Gentiles. I think you are ignoring the clear teaching of the NT for the sake of inserting concepts into Acts 28 and elsewhere that are not ever stated.

Your position as a Moderator on this Board should make you and your comments less biased in my opinion.

I am not breaking any rules on this board and my personal views on debatable matters are not a reflection of the views of this site. You can feel free to contact HammerStone if you think I should not be a moderator due to my eschatology and willingness to debate the issue.

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

First and foremost we need to understand that the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles were placed on the same level per the Holy Spirit in Acts, ie, 70 A..D., God destroyed the Jews as a nation. "The body of Christ" does include Christian Jews of course,,ie, there will even be a remnant of Jews that become Christians right up till the "1" forthcoming Parousia (Christ "1" Return) at the end of the 1,000 years after Satan is personally loosed for a short time (Rev.20:7).

btw Wormwood was non-personally, only posting and wasn't moderating in any sense, ie, in fact he was complying with Jn.8:51 IMO brother Floyd. Now we just have to receive a valid interpretation of the latter - lol with you sir.

Satan was personally bound at the Cross, and must rule through the Antichristian agencies since that time where understanding the Seals and Trumpets in truth, one's salvation my be redounded going from the Cross forward till Satan's personal loosing which isn't far off.

Old Jack

btw all that Revelation borrows from the O.T. is to be used in an independent way; we don't find even a single O.T. quotation, but only adaptations and nothing more. Thus O.T. passages do not govern the interpretation of passages in Revelation.

Appreciate you folks and your views.

 

[Floyd]

Of course the church is a "side note" in such a paradigm. The teaching by dispensationalists is that, had Israel accepted Christ originally, the Church would have never been formed! I find this to be a complete disregard for God's purposes in Christ for both Jews and Gentiles. Furthermore, most of the NT epistles were written prior to Acts 28:25-28. In fact, Paul teaches in Romans that many of the Jews rejected Christ because the church opened the door for Gentiles to become part of God's people by grace through faith alone, and not according to the Jewish law. Thus, "stumbling" of many of the Jewish people, according to Paul, was a result of the Gospel message as it pertained to Gentiles. It was the acceptance of the Gentiles through faith in Christ that caused the "stumbling" while you are arguing the opposite: that Gentiles were accepted only after many of the Jewish people stumbled.


Floyd:
Your comments are not correct re. Dispensationalist understanding. The gentiles were under the same offer as the Jews, but for different reasons. Almighty God wanted His "first born son" to accept their Messiah; which placed the Jew in priority position! At their failure after Paul's appeal to the last major Synagogue in Rome, the prophecy of Hosea 1-2 came into play; and Israel became "Lo-Ammi", (not my people), which is still the case today; but probably for not much longer. Also; the prophecies of Duet. became de-facto; all because of the rebellion of Israel, and their unfaithfulness! The events after Acts 28-28; place the Gentiles as "prime object"; and in the "age of the Gentiles"; which is explained by Paul in his "mystery Church" comments! The two positions, i.e. pre-Acts 28-28; and post Acts 28-28; entities, have different eternal destiny's, which, with your lack of knowledge of Jewish background and history, are lost on you!
You are very lacking in your understanding of the purpose of God re. His people the Jews. I recommend some time studying their background.



Dispensationalism would suggest that the Gentiles were embraced only after the Jews had rejected Jesus. The entire notion of the Church being God's backup plan after the Jews had rejected Jesus is found nowhere in Scripture. It is an assumption picked out of the thin blue sky in an attempt to lionize Israel and diminish the Church.



Floyd:
Your assumptions here are staggering! You seem to be making it up as you go along! Also; the comments are disrespectful to our God and Fathers dealing with Israel and the Body of Christ! You have a lot of catching up to do on this very important subject!
I suspect you have been heavily cloistered in a church which teaches the old erroneous classes, back to the "church fathers"!


Yes, by the 2nd and 3rd century, much of the Church was Gentile. There was also anti-Semitism in the church to be sure. However, many of the early church fathers rejected the anti-Semitism. Heretics like Marcion sought to eradicate any emphasis on the Jewish people by forming a canon of Scripture that minimized any focus on the Jewish people. Marcion was deemed a heretic and his canon was rejected outright. Yet, "Replacement Theology" (which I find to be an inaccurate term) is not akin to anti-Semitism. It would be anti-Semitism if believing Jews were rejected from the Church and that is clearly not the case either in the early church or throughout church history. A rejection of a Judeo-centric eschatology is not the same thing as racism or anti-Semitism. I think this quote sums up the issue quite well:


Floyd:
I am glad you have seen that the Jew was not excluded by God! That is a good start! You don't however seem to understand the power of Satan working through the churches?


I think we need to be careful when we attempt to brand an entire theology or eschatology as racist. That is a serious charge and one that I find to be both untrue and offensive.


Floyd:
You may find it offensive; but your head is in the sand to some extent, on this, and quite a few subjects, from what I have observed. Because of your background and indoctrination; you underestimate the gravity of what is coming on the world, and on the Jews in particular, This is exacerbated by your reluctance to study and co-relate the OT with the NT, by your own admission; relative to the Jews, and prophecy re. the world. This is a major deficiency; especially as you are in a teaching position!


Floyd, this sounds like the arguments Purity and Nodhead were making in their rejection of the Trinity.


Floyd:
Do not confuse the two as linked; you saw my position there! This not related in any way.


Why is it that every early church doctrine people disagree with is ultimately the result of Constantine and power politics that perverted Christianity? There is no evidence of this.

Floyd:
You are beginning to give me serious concern Wormwood, if you are supporting the formation of the "Holy Roman Empire" by Constantine and Helena. That was a Satanic move, which brought in Babylonian Paganism, in the guise of Christianity! If you don't know this, you should!


All we know is that this is what the early church believed and they cited Scripture to affirm it. You sound like a defense attorney trying to discredit the entire 1st and 2nd century church in order to nullify their beliefs.


Floyd:
You are getting personal now; which I am trying to avoid! However, you make a good point; much error was accepted, and formulated into some of the Creeds. The unwinding is still underway, and all of us get something wrong; but the merit is in the effort which is sincere!, in the mode of Luther.


I was simply quoting Paul in Galatians. I think your issue is with Paul's teachings and not with me. See the text I was quoting from below..


Floyd:
You are using that term again! I keep telling you that I do not have any issues in this context; especially on Paul's teaching. I wish you would stop trying to infer otherwise! At the bottom are two Links on my thinking on Paul; which do not back up your assertions.



The context of this is "spiritual gifts" among a group of Gentile and Jewish believers (primarily Gentile in Corinth). This has nothing to do with dispensations throughout the ages as your eschatology teaches.


Floyd:
You are at it again Wormwood; I don't have an "eschatology" you must stop trying to brand your thoughts on me, in a defamatory way! It looks as though you are lost for good knowledgeable arguments!


Floyd, your logic is perplexing. You claim the early church was anti-Semitic and then claim the tide was turned from the evil of the Roman Church by the bravery of Luther. Do you not know that Luther was an anti-Semite???


Floyd:
Of course I know that; you clearly have not seen much of our output to say such! I praise Luther for his bravery, unto possible burning alive by the Roman Church, but would not recant his new knowledge of "salvation by faith alone"; and as you will know, he confirmed that at the Diet of Worms. I know of his anti-Semitism, which was Roman Church inculcated; but, had he had longer to live after his marriage etc., I am convinced he would have seen that error; because he was a Spirit led man; and The Holy Spirit would not have left him alone!



Um, check the mailing address to the book of Revelation. I believe the address is to: Seven "CHURCHES" in Asia Minor. These were predominately Gentile churches. Moreover, Paul cites God's promise to Abraham's blessing to "many nations" was a promise to bless Gentiles through faith in Christ!!! This is what I mean. When the NT authors cite promises to the patriarchs, they show how they have been fulfilled through Christ to both Jews and Gentiles. I think you are ignoring the clear teaching of the NT for the sake of inserting concepts into Acts 28 and elsewhere that are not ever stated.


Floyd:
You are wrong again; and again making up assumptions. You will not be able to rest properly until you are more accepting of the "whole word of God"; and what it will teach you over time!
If we are to have any future communications on this Board; I ask that you stop trying to assume your way out of what you do not want to hear! the problem is not with me; it is as said above, your lack of knowledge, wrong study areas, and wrong conclusions!


I am not breaking any rules on this board and my personal views on debatable matters are not a reflection of the views of this site. You can feel free to contact HammerStone if you think I should not be a moderator due to my eschatology and willingness to debate the issue.


Floyd:
Again you presume! Yes, I do think you are too rigid for a Monitor/Moderator, but, that is only my opinion!
Floyd.


Apostle Paul: (Separate study)
Apostle Paul's Accusers (Separate study)