Desolating Abomination

[Angelina]

Sorry to get you into this mess Rerobyter... Daq'a imagination seems to sun rampant, but hie abiliy to paste and copy is only equaled by his ability to include un-related scriptures.

Daq is not the issue here terry. My concern for you is the same as Brother Tom's. :huh: You are in deep error here and your imagination has taken you off the path that leads to truth in Christ. Turn back while you are able...repent and be restored, in Jesus name!

BB

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

I never mentioned the name or title "Mowshiya`" until after you did and that is clear to anyone with eyes to read.

[Quote:]"But, in answer to your question, "where is it written of Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu that they would do with him as they pleased?" technically, it isn't."[End quote].

You do not believe Yeshua when he states "IT IS WRITTEN" that they would do with Elijah what they pleased?

Mark 9:13 KJV
13. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

As already stated to another; one must be willing to believe the statements of the Master.
Not sure what else to say concerning this except that any true disciple believes the Word ...

Luke 1:17 KJV
17. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, [<- hint! hint! a mashiyach-anointed one!] to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

And what did they do with mashiyach Yochanan who had the anointing of the Spirit of Eliyahu? Do you not consider physical beheading as being "karath-cut off"? That is about as "literal" as it gets would you not agree? And when you say that Messiah was "cut off" to nothingness-non-existence, (because that is what 'ayin means which is employed in Daniel 9:26), even if you say the Father turned away from the Son for a "split second" (which is impossible outside of time) then you are essentially saying that Yeshua was anathema, excommunicated, "scapegoated", or "cut off" from the congregation.

Original Strong's Ref. #369
Romanized 'ayin
Pronounced ah'-yin
as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:
KJV--else, except, fail, [father-]less, be gone, in[-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor, (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un(-searchable), well-nigh, without. Compare HSN0370.

The same word is used for Enoch who was taken and was "not-'ayin", ("w'eynenuw" Genesis 5:24) and again the same word is used for the final evil king of Daniel 11:45, ("w'eyn `owzer low" "there is none-nothing-not-'ayin" a help for him). This word implies an absolute negative which includes the possibility of non-existence. It is used of mere mortal men like Yochanan the Immerser. Truly it is written of John Elias the Cryer, (haQowre') in the wilderness that they would karath-cut him off and set him to nought-nothingness. In fact haQowre' is the very name that Yochanan gives for himself, (John 1:23) when they ask him who he is and he quotes Isaiah 40:3, ("qowl qowre' bamidbar"). Sorry you refuse see past your mindset ...

Actually, it WAS you who brought up Hosea 13:4-11 passing off "Saviour" as Yeshua`. That word "Saviour" IS the word "Mowshiya`." I merely pointed out that fact to you, but you just HAD to justify yourself in the usage of that passage by saying...

You want to speak of rightly dividing the Word but it appears that none of you do this when it comes to the most hotly debated passage in all of the prophetic writings; yet the Master himself explains why he is not the meshiyach of Daniel 9:24-27, and Paulos confirms this word. Even Strong's has it wrong in this respect because he, and most others now, have assumed that "Messias" comes from "meshiach" when it more likely comes from Mowshiya, (Mowshiya` is a form of Yesha`-Salvation which is Yeshua the right hand of the Father who is the only Salvation). Therefore when you say that Yeshua is Meshiach or when you write "Yeshua HaMeshiach" (HaMashiyach) you are unknowingly and unwittingly demoting the Master to a lesser status thinking yourself to be wise, (and the unbelieving Jews know this and laugh at you behind your back just so you know).

So, you not only brought up the word (couched in English within the passage of Hosea 13:4-11), but you then DEFENDED your usage of that passage as though "Mowshiya`" was the actual word transliterated into the Greek as "Messias" instead of "Mashiyach!" (A ridiculous stance, btw.)

Secondly, okay, I'll give you Mark 9:13. I thought there was such a verse, but I couldn't find it last night; so, I opted for the next best thing. Namely, that they had done whatever they could to take the Kingdom of God by force; so, I DID make a mistake. Surprise! I'm human, too.

But then, why did you ask the question in the first place? Are you trying to say that Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) is the "Mashiyach" but Yeshua` is the "Mowshiya`?" Because of what you wrote above, it appears that is what you are saying. But, if THAT'S what you're trying to do, remember Yochanan's admission:

John 1:19-23
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
KJV

And, "Christ" is the shortened, Anglicized version of the Greek title "Christos," which in turn is the translation of the Hebrew title "Mashiyach." So, you shouldn't be trying to use verse 23 to support your theory without acknowledging verse 20, which clearly stands AGAINST it! This is what I mean by not letting the Scriptures speak for themselves!

I also find it interesting that you focused on that one error to the extreme and glossed over everything else I said to you in that post. You were like a duck on a June bug, pouncing on a minor point while the major points were ignored! It rather reminded me of Yeshua`s words about swatting at a gnat while swallowing a camel!

But, what REALLY bothers me is this statement you just made:

And when you say that Messiah was "cut off" to nothingness-non-existence, (because that is what 'ayin means which is employed in Daniel 9:26), even if you say the Father turned away from the Son for a "split second" (which is impossible outside of time) then you are essentially saying that Yeshua was anathema, excommunicated, "scapegoated", or "cut off" from the congregation.

First, on the minor side, "'ayin" does NOT mean '"cut off" to nothingness - non-existence!' You are adding to the Scriptures by adding to the definition! I say that's "minor" because it is done so often, but it's not truly minor if one considers how vital the Scriptures are to our well-being. You are not to be blamed because believers do it all the time, and a good case in point is the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos":

Both words simply refer to the earth's atmosphere - the "sky" - but so often people will add that it is "God's abode," that it has often lost its simple meaning. You mentioned Matthew 16:1-7 (I believe it was), but that's a perfect example: Why is "ouranos" in Matthew 16:1 translated "heaven" in almost every English version of the NT but translated "sky" in Matthew 16:2 and 3? It's the SAME WORD in all those verses!

"'Ayin" simply means "to have nothing," and it does NOT refer to the Messiah Himself! It refers to WHAT He had left! Again, look closely at this phrase. I'll break it down for you:

Dani'el 9:26c ...v'eeyn ('ayin) low...

v- = and (the connective prefix)
`eeyn = be/have-nothing
l- = to/for (the indirect object prefix)
-ow = he/himself (3rd person, singular ending)

Thus, it literally translates to "and be nothing to himself" or "and be nothing for himself" or "and have nothing to himself" or "and have nothing for himself."

Furthermore, the phrase "yikaareet maashiyach" can be broken down as follows:

Dani'el 9:26b ...yikaareet maashiyach...

yi- = he (third-person prefix)
kaareet = shall-be-cut-off/down/apart
maashiyach = Messiah/Christ (subject position)
Thus, in English, it is translated "Messiah shall be cut off" or "Messiah shall be cut down" or "Messiah shall be cut apart (from His people)."

If we add in the first few words, we get...

Dani'el 9:26a V'achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim...

V- = And (connective conjunction)
achareey = hind-parts/after
ha- the (definite article prefix)
shaavu`iym = sevens (plural)
shishiym = sixty (plural)
uw- = and (connective conjunction)
shnayim = two (dual)

Thus, it is translated "And after the sixty-two sevens..." and all together we get "And after the sixty-two sevens Messiah shall be cut (off/down/apart) and (be/have) nothing (to/for) Himself."

HOWEVER, what really concerns me the most (because this is REALLY a MAJOR point) is your comment,

'... even if you say the Father turned away from the Son for a "split second" (which is impossible outside of time) then you are essentially saying that Yeshua was anathema, excommunicated, "scapegoated", or "cut off" from the congregation,'

because that is PRECISELY what happened, and you should know that! And, it wasn't for a "split second"; it happened for THREE HOURS! During that time period, Yeshua` no longer called His Father "Father"; He called Him "My God!" And, His Father did indeed forsake Him during that time! That was CRUCIAL for our justification from sin because during that time God was judging His Son AS our sins! "He who knew no sin BECAME sin for us!"

What could be more important than 2 Corinthians 5:21 as it relates to Isaiah 53?!

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV


2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (Yeshua` the Son of God) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.


Actually, it WAS you who brought up Hosea 13:4-11 passing off "Saviour" as Yeshua`. That word "Saviour" IS the word "Mowshiya`." I merely pointed out that fact to you, but you just HAD to justify yourself in the usage of that passage by saying...


So, you not only brought up the word (couched in English within the passage of Hosea 13:4-11), but you then DEFENDED your usage of that passage as though "Mowshiya`" was the actual word transliterated into the Greek as "Messias" instead of "Mashiyach!" (A ridiculous stance, btw.)

Secondly, okay, I'll give you Mark 9:13. I thought there was such a verse, but I couldn't find it last night; so, I opted for the next best thing. Namely, that they had done whatever they could to take the Kingdom of God by force; so, I DID make a mistake. Surprise! I'm human, too.

But then, why did you ask the question in the first place? Are you trying to say that Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) is the "Mashiyach" but Yeshua` is the "Mowshiya`?" Because of what you wrote above, it appears that is what you are saying. But, if THAT'S what you're trying to do, remember Yochanan's admission:

John 1:19-23
19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
KJV

And, "Christ" is the shortened, Anglicized version of the Greek title "Christos," which in turn is the translation of the Hebrew title "Mashiyach." So, you shouldn't be trying to use verse 23 to support your theory without acknowledging verse 20, which clearly stands AGAINST it! This is what I mean by not letting the Scriptures speak for themselves!

I also find it interesting that you focused on that one error to the extreme and glossed over everything else I said to you in that post. You were like a duck on a June bug, pouncing on a minor point while the major points were ignored! It rather reminded me of Yeshua`s words about swatting at a gnat while swallowing a camel!

Shalom Retrobyter, do you not realize that "Mowshiya`" is technically not even its own separate word? It is a form of HSN#3467 "yasha`" which has already been noted. And what I stated was that YHWH is the only Saviour and that Yeshua is his right hand of salvation, (go back and read it again). Just because I quoted Hosea 13 does not mean I brought up Mowshiya` from the Hebrew; you did that, and that is why I attempted to point the direction of your study to Isaiah 45 because it clearly reveals the differences in how they are employed in the Scripture itself. If some of you here would not bring up tangents then they would not be followed, (so "terry" why do you blame me for that?). If we are to allow the Scripture to interpret itself then other passages are going to be absolutely necessary, (for some of us that is a good thing). There are also multiple usages of nagiyd, (king David is called a nagiyd). Why limit your understanding by forcing mashiyach to mean Messiah when Mowshiya` is clearly superior in Isaiah 45 and that mashiyach is Cyrus with his typology of John? If one will not allow Scripture to interpret Scripture by it usages in its own contexts then the same will not understand.

Judges 3:9 KJV
9. And when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer [HSN#3467 yasha`] to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

Original Strong's Ref. #3467
Romanized yasha`
Pronounced yaw-shah'
a primitive root; properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor:
KJV--X at all, avenging, defend, deliver(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save(-iour), get victory.

Judges 3:9 TUA
9. Wayiz`quw bney- Yisra'el 'el- Yahweh. Wayaqem Yahweh mowshiya` libney Yisra'el wayowshiy`em -- 'et`Atniy'el ben- Qnaz, 'chiy Kaleb, haqaTon mimenuw.

Judges 3:15 KJV
15. But when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised them up a deliverer, [HSN#3467 yasha`] Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.

Judges 3:15 TUA
15. Wayiz`quw bney- Yisra'el 'el- Yahweh wayaqem Yahwehlahem mowshiya` -- 'et- 'Ehuwd ben- Gera', Ben-ha ymiyniy,'iysh 'iTer yad- ymiynow.

1 Samuel 10:19 KJV
19. And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved [HSN#3467 yasha`] you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands.

1 Samuel 10:19 YUA
19. W'atem hayowm m'actem'et- 'Eloheykem 'sher- huw' mowshiya` lakem mikal-ra`owteykem wtsaroteykem. Wato'mruw low, Kiy- melek tasiym`aleynuw! W`atah hityatsbuw lipney Yahweh lshibTeykemuwl'alpeykem.

1 Samuel 10:19 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's #s)
19.
|0859| But you
|3117| today
|3973| rejected
|0853| your
|0430| God
|0834| who
|1931| Himself {is}
|3467| deliverer
|0000| for you
|3605| from all
|7451| your calamities,
|6964| and your distresses
|0559| and you say
|0000| to him,
|3588| But
|4428| a king
|7760| set
|5921| over us!
|6258| And now
|3320| present yourselves
|6440| in the presence of
|3068| Yahweh
|7626| by your tribes
|0504| and by your families.

1 Samuel 14:39 KJV
39. For, as the Lord liveth, which saveth [HSN#3467 yasha`] Israel, though it be in Jonathan my son, he shall surely die. But there was not a man among all the people that answered him.

1 Samuel 14:39 TUA
39. Kiychay- Yahweh hamowshiya` 'et- Yisra'el, kiy 'im- yeshnowb-Yownatan, bniy, kiy mowt yamuwt! W'eyn `onehuw mikal-ha`am.

"YHWH HaMowshiya` 'et- Yisra'el" ~ "YHWH The Saviour to Yisra'el"

2 Kings 13:4-5 KJV
4. And Jehoahaz besought the Lord, and the Lord hearkened unto him: for he saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Syria oppressed them.
5. (And the Lord gave Israel a saviour, [HSN#3467 yasha`] so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

2 Kings 13:5 TUA
5. Wayiten Yahweh l-Yisra'el mowshiya`. Wayets'uw mitachat yad- 'Aram. Wayeshbuw bney-Yisra'el b'ahaleyhem kitmowl shilshowm.

You only help to prove the point that Strong's is INCORRECT in this matter because "Mowshiya`" is not recognized when it might have been better to categorize it as a separate word, A SAVIOUR, (LIKE UNTO MOSHE!)!

The same is the case with the word 'ayin. The only way to show this is by quoting other Scripture contexts and thus, no, this is not a random verse with no relevance as another poster just accused once more. Either you simply cannot to see the truth because of your mindset bias or in the worse case you are intentionally skewing the definitions of the words from their own contexts. I choose to believe for the moment that you simply cannot see past your mindset. In Genesis 2:5 the phrase "there was not" is a complete phrase, (all three English words) rendered from this one single Hebrew word 'ayin:

Genesis 2:5 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
5. Wkol siyachhasadeh Terem yihyeh ba'arets wkal- `eseb hasadeh Teremyitsmach kiy lo' himTiyr Yahweh 'Elohiym `al- ha'aretsw'adam 'ayin la`bod 'et- ha'damah.

Genesis 2:5 KJV
5. And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not [HSN#369 'ayin] a man to till the ground.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/genesis_2.shtml

Here is the BDB definition since I already quoted the Original Strong's:

BDB - Strong's Hebrew Definition for #0369
0369 // Nya // 'ayin // ah'-yin //
as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist;
TWOT - 81; subst n neg adv w/prep
AV - except, faileth, fatherless, incurable, infinite, innumerable, neither, never, no, none, not, nothing, nought, without; 29
1) nothing, not, nought
n
1a) nothing, nought
neg
1b) not
1c) to have not (of possession)
adv
1d) without
w/prep
1e) for lack of
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=hebrew&stnm=0369

But, what REALLY bothers me is this statement you just made:


First, on the minor side, "'ayin" does NOT mean '"cut off" to nothingness - non-existence!' You are adding to the Scriptures by adding to the definition! I say that's "minor" because it is done so often, but it's not truly minor if one considers how vital the Scriptures are to our well-being. You are not to be blamed because believers do it all the time, and a good case in point is the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos":

Both words simply refer to the earth's atmosphere - the "sky" - but so often people will add that it is "God's abode," that it has often lost its simple meaning. You mentioned Matthew 16:1-7 (I believe it was), but that's a perfect example: Why is "ouranos" in Matthew 16:1 translated "heaven" in almost every English version of the NT but translated "sky" in Matthew 16:2 and 3? It's the SAME WORD in all those verses!

"'Ayin" simply means "to have nothing," and it does NOT refer to the Messiah Himself! It refers to WHAT He had left! Again, look closely at this phrase. I'll break it down for you:

Dani'el 9:26c ...v'eeyn ('ayin) low...

v- = and (the connective prefix)
`eeyn = be/have-nothing
l- = to/for (the indirect object prefix)
-ow = he/himself (3rd person, singular ending)

Thus, it literally translates to "and be nothing to himself" or "and be nothing for himself" or "and have nothing to himself" or "and have nothing for himself."

Furthermore, the phrase "yikaareet maashiyach" can be broken down as follows:

Dani'el 9:26b ...yikaareet maashiyach...

yi- = he (third-person prefix)
kaareet = shall-be-cut-off/down/apart
maashiyach = Messiah/Christ (subject position)
Thus, in English, it is translated "Messiah shall be cut off" or "Messiah shall be cut down" or "Messiah shall be cut apart (from His people)."

If we add in the first few words, we get...

Dani'el 9:26a V'achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim...

V- = And (connective conjunction)
achareey = hind-parts/after
ha- the (definite article prefix)
shaavu`iym = sevens (plural)
shishiym = sixty (plural)
uw- = and (connective conjunction)
shnayim = two (dual)

Thus, it is translated "And after the sixty-two sevens..." and all together we get "And after the sixty-two sevens Messiah shall be cut (off/down/apart) and (be/have) nothing (to/for) Himself."

HOWEVER, what really concerns me the most (because this is REALLY a MAJOR point) is your comment,

'... even if you say the Father turned away from the Son for a "split second" (which is impossible outside of time) then you are essentially saying that Yeshua was anathema, excommunicated, "scapegoated", or "cut off" from the congregation,'

because that is PRECISELY what happened, and you should know that! And, it wasn't for a "split second"; it happened for THREE HOURS! During that time period, Yeshua` no longer called His Father "Father"; He called Him "My God!" And, His Father did indeed forsake Him during that time! That was CRUCIAL for our justification from sin because during that time God was judging His Son AS our sins! "He who knew no sin BECAME sin for us!"

What could be more important than 2 Corinthians 5:21 as it relates to Isaiah 53?!

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV


2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (Yeshua` the Son of God) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

Duly noted but this, (with Psalm 22) is a multi-page topic for the "theology" department and not this thread.
And your stance is again based in error and misunderstanding, (of the sacrificial commands and sin offerings).

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Fortunately, you were writing to me. Others on this forum might accuse you at this point of being an unbeliever because you don't understand the justification process that God has established for what most term "salvation." However, I understand that a person can still experience God's justification regardless whether he understands fully what happened to him or not. In fact, I'm sure that we all have certain blind spots to the full process that God alone fully understood as the method by which He rescues an individual from the results of his sins. Consequently, I still count you a brother.

We'll let this go in this prophecy forum, but just because you don't understand how God justified us by the great "trading places," doesn't mean that it isn't true. I would suggest that you do a little research on the words "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" as they occur in 2 Corinthians 5 and investigate closely the Greek of the chapter. These words really DO fit with the 21st verse. The only way to be "reconciled" to a holy God is to have God DECLARE a person "the righteousness of God," in spite of our sins; however, the only way that God can JUSTLY declare a person "the righteousness of God" is (1) for God to declare a perfectly righteous person (namely, Yeshua`) as "sin," and (2) for a person to desire of God to make the impossible happen for him/her.

This was the whole point in Yeshua`s account of the Paruwsh and the "Publican":

Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

There ARE two different kinds of people in Christianity, indeed, in the world:

1. Those who believe that their good deeds must outweigh their bad deeds and that they can do enough good deeds to be reconciled to God, and...
2. Those who understand that NO amount of good deeds is enough for a perfect, holy God and that they can ONLY be reconciled to God with God's supernatural intervention!

The first group says, "I can do this!" The second group comes humbly to God and says, "God, be merciful to me a sinner." (Don't tell me into which group you fall, unless your willing to consider the truth.)

Now, you said,...

Shalom Retrobyter, do you not realize that "Mowshiya`" is technically not even its own separate word? It is a form of HSN#3467 "yasha`" which has already been noted. And what I stated was that YHWH is the only Saviour and that Yeshua is his right hand of salvation, (go back and read it again). Just because I quoted Hosea 13 does not mean I brought up Mowshiya` from the Hebrew; you did that, and that is why I attempted to point the direction of your study to Isaiah 45 because it clearly reveals the differences in how they are employed in the Scripture itself. If some of you here would not bring up tangents then they would not be followed, (so "terry" why do you blame me for that?). If we are to allow the Scripture to interpret itself then other passages are going to be absolutely necessary, (for some of us that is a good thing). There are also multiple usages of nagiyd, (king David is called a nagiyd). Why limit your understanding by forcing mashiyach to mean Messiah when Mowshiya` is clearly superior in Isaiah 45 and that mashiyach is Cyrus with his typology of John? If one will not allow Scripture to interpret Scripture by it usages in its own contexts then the same will not understand.

Judges 3:9 KJV
9. And when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer [HSN#3467 yasha`] to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

Original Strong's Ref. #3467
Romanized yasha`
Pronounced yaw-shah'
a primitive root; properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor:
KJV--X at all, avenging, defend, deliver(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save(-iour), get victory.

Judges 3:9 TUA
9. Wayiz`quw bney- Yisra'el 'el- Yahweh. Wayaqem Yahweh mowshiya` libney Yisra'el wayowshiy`em -- 'et`Atniy'el ben- Qnaz, 'chiy Kaleb, haqaTon mimenuw.

Judges 3:15 KJV
15. But when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised them up a deliverer, [HSN#3467 yasha`] Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.

Judges 3:15 TUA
15. Wayiz`quw bney- Yisra'el 'el- Yahweh wayaqem Yahwehlahem mowshiya` -- 'et- 'Ehuwd ben- Gera', Ben-ha ymiyniy,'iysh 'iTer yad- ymiynow.

1 Samuel 10:19 KJV
19. And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved [HSN#3467 yasha`] you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands.

1 Samuel 10:19 YUA
19. W'atem hayowm m'actem'et- 'Eloheykem 'sher- huw' mowshiya` lakem mikal-ra`owteykem wtsaroteykem. Wato'mruw low, Kiy- melek tasiym`aleynuw! W`atah hityatsbuw lipney Yahweh lshibTeykemuwl'alpeykem.

1 Samuel 10:19 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's #s)
19.
|0859| But you
|3117| today
|3973| rejected
|0853| your
|0430| God
|0834| who
|1931| Himself {is}
|3467| deliverer
|0000| for you
|3605| from all
|7451| your calamities,
|6964| and your distresses
|0559| and you say
|0000| to him,
|3588| But
|4428| a king
|7760| set
|5921| over us!
|6258| And now
|3320| present yourselves
|6440| in the presence of
|3068| Yahweh
|7626| by your tribes
|0504| and by your families.

1 Samuel 14:39 KJV
39. For, as the Lord liveth, which saveth [HSN#3467 yasha`] Israel, though it be in Jonathan my son, he shall surely die. But there was not a man among all the people that answered him.

1 Samuel 14:39 TUA
39. Kiychay- Yahweh hamowshiya` 'et- Yisra'el, kiy 'im- yeshnowb-Yownatan, bniy, kiy mowt yamuwt! W'eyn `onehuw mikal-ha`am.

"YHWH HaMowshiya` 'et- Yisra'el" ~ "YHWH The Saviour to Yisra'el"

2 Kings 13:4-5 KJV
4. And Jehoahaz besought the Lord, and the Lord hearkened unto him: for he saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Syria oppressed them.
5. (And the Lord gave Israel a saviour, [HSN#3467 yasha`] so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

2 Kings 13:5 TUA
5. Wayiten Yahweh l-Yisra'el mowshiya`. Wayets'uw mitachat yad- 'Aram. Wayeshbuw bney-Yisra'el b'ahaleyhem kitmowl shilshowm.

You only help to prove the point that Strong's is INCORRECT in this matter because "Mowshiya`" is not recognized when it might have been better to categorize it as a separate word, A SAVIOUR, (LIKE UNTO MOSHE!)!

The same is the case with the word 'ayin. The only way to show this is by quoting other Scripture contexts and thus, no, this is not a random verse with no relevance as another poster just accused once more. Either you simply cannot to see the truth because of your mindset bias or in the worse case you are intentionally skewing the definitions of the words from their own contexts. I choose to believe for the moment that you simply cannot see past your mindset. In Genesis 2:5 the phrase "there was not" is a complete phrase, (all three English words) rendered from this one single Hebrew word 'ayin:

Genesis 2:5 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
5. Wkol siyachhasadeh Terem yihyeh ba'arets wkal- `eseb hasadeh Teremyitsmach kiy lo' himTiyr Yahweh 'Elohiym `al- ha'aretsw'adam 'ayin la`bod 'et- ha'damah.

Genesis 2:5 KJV
5. And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not [HSN#369 'ayin] a man to till the ground.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/genesis_2.shtml

Here is the BDB definition since I already quoted the Original Strong's:

BDB - Strong's Hebrew Definition for #0369
0369 // Nya // 'ayin // ah'-yin //
as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist;
TWOT - 81; subst n neg adv w/prep
AV - except, faileth, fatherless, incurable, infinite, innumerable, neither, never, no, none, not, nothing, nought, without; 29
1) nothing, not, nought
n
1a) nothing, nought
neg
1b) not
1c) to have not (of possession)
adv
1d) without
w/prep
1e) for lack of
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=hebrew&stnm=0369


Duly noted but this, (with Psalm 22) is a multi-page topic for the "theology" department and not this thread.
And your stance is again based in error and misunderstanding, (of the sacrificial commands and sin offerings).

I am well aware of families of Hebrew words. Several words that are basically spelled the same will have various pronunciations and different complex meanings but they have a fundamental relationship in their basic meanings. I believe that we would have had much in common if we could have gotten off on the right footing.

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.

Fortunately, you were writing to me. Others on this forum might accuse you at this point of being an unbeliever because you don't understand the justification process that God has established for what most term "salvation." However, I understand that a person can still experience God's justification regardless whether he understands fully what happened to him or not. In fact, I'm sure that we all have certain blind spots to the full process that God alone fully understood as the method by which He rescues an individual from the results of his sins. Consequently, I still count you a brother.

We'll let this go in this prophecy forum, but just because you don't understand how God justified us by the great "trading places," doesn't mean that it isn't true. I would suggest that you do a little research on the words "reconciled," "reconciling," and "reconciliation" as they occur in 2 Corinthians 5 and investigate closely the Greek of the chapter. These words really DO fit with the 21st verse. The only way to be "reconciled" to a holy God is to have God DECLARE a person "the righteousness of God," in spite of our sins; however, the only way that God can JUSTLY declare a person "the righteousness of God" is (1) for God to declare a perfectly righteous person (namely, Yeshua`) as "sin," and (2) for a person to desire of God to make the impossible happen for him/her.

This was the whole point in Yeshua`s account of the Paruwsh and the "Publican":

Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

There ARE two different kinds of people in Christianity, indeed, in the world:

1. Those who believe that their good deeds must outweigh their bad deeds and that they can do enough good deeds to be reconciled to God, and...
2. Those who understand that NO amount of good deeds is enough for a perfect, holy God and that they can ONLY be reconciled to God with God's supernatural intervention!

The first group says, "I can do this!" The second group comes humbly to God and says, "God, be merciful to me a sinner." (Don't tell me into which group you fall, unless your willing to consider the truth.)

Now, you said,...


I am well aware of families of Hebrew words. Several words that are basically spelled the same will have various pronunciations and different complex meanings but they have a fundamental relationship in their basic meanings. I believe that we would have had much in common if we could have gotten off on the right footing.

With your own theology you shoot your self in the foot like so many others because you have not yet done enough of your own "homework" (and that is acceptable so long as one continues in the Word; for if we continue in his doctrine only then are we truly his disciples). There is none righteous and none good, except the heavenly Father: and his Son Yeshua, the right arm of the Salvation of YHWH and Savior of the world, is the only man who kept himself spotless and without blemish; not only for himself unto the Father, but for our sakes. If therefore your Master is "imputed with sin" then you being "in him" remain in your own sins. But again this is not for this thread unless you desire to go into the scapegoat typologies and shadows; I only answer to this here so you do not assume me to believe in a "salvation by works" doctrine, (though your sanctification is on yourself to perform and required as "the will of God" before you will receive the promise, Hebrews 10:36 KJV and 1 Thessalonians 4:3 KJV).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Sorry to get you into this mess Rerobyter... Daq'a imagination seems to sun rampant, but hie abiliy to paste and copy is only equaled by his ability to include un-related scriptures.

Me too retrobyter .... i went to my control panel and put daq on my ignore list ..... but I had to put you (retrobyter) on as well because you quote all of daq's posts.

Daq is a waste of time and space .

afaithfulonefor you is also now on my ignore list.

All of a sudden this forum is much easier to read.

thank you LORD

 

[tgwprophet]

Daq wrrote: " How can it be that such a one claiming to be "one of the two witnesses" cannot converse in the Word? which is to speak in Messiah who is the Word? Likewise how can such a one who claims to be "one of the two witnesses" expect those who know to believe him when the same does not even appear to understand that his own conscience is his garment-raiment-covering? "

First, when I converse it is in the Word - but it is i my own words as that pertains to today's language just as prophets before - duh. How is it you cannot?

Likewise how can such a one who claims to be "one of the two witnesses" expect those who know to believe him when the same does not even appear to understand that his own conscience is his garment-raiment-covering? "

How is it you feel my consicense is in ANY manner affected? Is it because of my Anger - as if the Lord Gof never got angry - howbeit you expect more from me than from God? My intregrity remains in tact = while yours continues to fall apart. Do you think that I am a God that I do not make mistakes? Like prophets never mak mistakes... that would mean you knpw nothing of the Word of God. That I should never appologize? Exactly whatare you tring to say except gibberish and posting (even often out of context ) to make obscure observations that are not complting with the issue at hand, please grow up.




Brothertom I expect you not to address the issue I laid out above, but rather ignore it.

As far as Witesses #2 - God fave it to me to choose Witness #2 ! Hence, me = teacher... duh. ( it was a very short list ).

Now as far as God knowing from the begining of time... what it is like without time (you need not try to answer) Without time... everything is present and without space everything is feel. Your observation then lack understanding and your wisdom falters when you attempt to discredit or debate someone much smarter than you. Wisdom mandates it isbest to learn from more intelligent and wiser people. Tell me waht say you about March 25th 2013?

I should add this... When I claims I am much smarter... Passed the Navy Nuclear reactor induction test with the highest score they ever had and did so again with Ohio Rebab test - but this is not something I atest to myself - See through God all things are possible... most limit that to things of religion... I limit it to nothing. So that intelligence glory belongs to God, not me.

In my own words; I condemned myself if I am a liar concerning being one of the Two Witnesses and choosing the other by a God given right... can you do the same for your self? I recommend you do NOT. I learned Augaust 14th 2004 that I am one of te Two Witesses and was given the ability to choose the other Witness. I told of this the very next day... no oine has EVER been able to proven to even envoke doubt in that or prove it wrong.... neither will you be able... My recomedation here is... do not even try. Develop a proper test adn I will pass it. I do not mean proper as in what you "consider" proper, but rather a proper test... as the test I gave you, is a proper test of a prophet - barring you would be one of rhe Two witnesses.

Now, if someone desiers to know...about March 25th 2013 - e-mail me and if you are in my trusted group - i will tell you. And remember, I am not yet ermpowered as a prophet.

 

[daq]

Daq wrrote: " How can it be that such a one claiming to be "one of the two witnesses" cannot converse in the Word? which is to speak in Messiah who is the Word? Likewise how can such a one who claims to be "one of the two witnesses" expect those who know to believe him when the same does not even appear to understand that his own conscience is his garment-raiment-covering? "

First, when I converse it is in the Word - but it is i my own words as that pertains to today's language just as prophets before - duh. How is it you cannot?

Likewise how can such a one who claims to be "one of the two witnesses" expect those who know to believe him when the same does not even appear to understand that his own conscience is his garment-raiment-covering? "

How is it you feel my consicense is in ANY manner affected? Is it because of my Anger - as if the Lord Gof never got angry - howbeit you expect more from me than from God? My intregrity remains in tact = while yours continues to fall apart. Do you think that I am a God that I do not make mistakes? Like prophets never mak mistakes... that would mean you knpw nothing of the Word of God. That I should never appologize? Exactly whatare you tring to say except gibberish and posting (even often out of context ) to make obscure observations that are not complting with the issue at hand, please grow up.

Of all the things addressed so far in this thread the statement concerning the conscience is what eats away at you? I notice you did not quote the passages which make the point now after the fact. It was nothing personal concerning you but rather just the way it is: your own conscience is a witness either for or against you. If it is spotted, (like a garment) or has any "wool" in it, (which is rough and irritable) then it will betray you before the Most High and you will begin to "sweat it" (re: the Ezekiel 44 Zadok priesthood). You have your conscience and I have mine; each of us is responsible for his own conscience, we are all therefore subject to the same conditions which I suggested to you.

2 Corinthians 5:1-11 KJV
1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest [like a "down payment"] of the Spirit.
6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Could "one of the two witnesses" not know the terror of the Lord? Your last enemy to be destroyed will be death: then shall the Son deliver up your kingdom to the Father so that the Most High be all in all. Are you honestly prepared for that eventuality? I already told you the when, the where, and what it means to become a son, (if indeed you overcome in the hour of your trial). And if you do overcome then shall you be clothed from on high; and the Tabernacle of God shall be your fine linens like a bride adorning her husband, "Behold, a nqebah shall encompass a geber" (Jeremiah 31:22 "New Covenant" text). So perhaps you might study his Tabernacle with all its fine linens; blues, and purples, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins ...

 

[tgwprophet]

Daq wrote: " Of all the things addressed so far in this thread the statement concerning the conscience is what eats away at you? I notice you did not quote the passages which make the point now after the fact. It was nothing personal concerning you but rather just the way it is: your own conscience is a witness either for or against you. If it is spotted, (like a garment) or has any "wool" in it, (which is rough and irritable) then it will betray you before the Most High and you will begin to "sweat it" (re: the Ezekiel 44 Zadok priesthood). You have your conscience and I have mine; each of us is responsible for his own conscience, we are all therefore subject to the same conditions which I suggested to you. "

I put it in my own words... and it certainly does not eat at me!

It was nothing personal concerning you but rather just the way it is: your own conscience is a witness either for or against you. If it is spotted, (like a garment) or has any "wool" in it, (which is rough and irritable) then it will betray you before the Most High and you will begin to "sweat it" (re: the Ezekiel 44 Zadok priesthood). You have your conscience and I have mine; each of us is responsible for his own conscience, we are all therefore subject to the same conditions which I suggested to you. "


Of that we have found agreement - nice explanation

Could "one of the two witnesses" not know the terror of the Lord? Your last enemy to be destroyed will be death: then shall the Son deliver up your kingdom to the Father so that the Most High be all in all. Are you honestly prepared for that eventuality? I already told you the when, the where, and what it means to become a son, (if indeed you overcome in the hour of your trial). And if you do overcome then shall you be clothed from on high; and the Tabernacle of God shall be your fine linens like a bride adorning her husband, "Behold, a nqebah shall encompass a geber" (Jeremiah 31:22 "New Covenant" text) ...

Of the terror of the Lord God... yes I know but it is certainly subdued by the most high in the Lord My God and that is LOVE.
Of course I am prepared. As far as my truimph...it too has been written, Fot the Lord my God knows me better than I know myself..

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

terry .... i am listening carefully to what you say.

I recommend that you not waste time with the folks here who copy and paste huge posts without really saying anything themselves.

If you do indeed have a special mission from above , then everything will unfold just as intended .

At this moment I do not judge you whatsoever ...... but you have snagged my interest , and that alone is unusual for me. There also seems to be a spiritual confirmation as well , ..... Time will tell.

.................................

There is nothing unique or special about me , I claim no special abilities , I have no talents as a prophet, Yet God has put me in a position of great responsibility of having me made fully aware of recent fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning Israel

it is 100% scriptural , it involves second and third persons and entities other than myself , all the facts corroborate each other and confirm each other . It stands up to all scrutiny.

A jury of 12 atheists would vote yes to its accuracy.

It dates back to 2003 and I have been holding the info close to my chest. I am not the timekeeper for when it will be made public , if I had it my way I would have released it ten years ago.

it is a significant event in the prophetic timeline BEFORE any tribulations or endtime events. It is positive in context and is specific to Israel.

Those things alone confirm to me that the prophetic timeclock is ticking in a new and special way. For that reason I do not exclude the possibility that there may be other persons or witnesses that God is using as well.

If you happen to be one of them the proof will come on its own terry . Both to confirm it to yourself , and to confirm it to others. At least that is how it has worked out for me so far.

Arnie M.

 

[tgwprophet]

God gave me confirmation, had he not I would not claim to be a prophet. I tell others for the one reason of their ability to descern and receive a prophets reward... see I would love to see multitudes receive that reward. It is not a lesser reward than a prophet receives for being a prophet it is EQUAL, how great is that? The second reason ias that IF a proper test can be discovered, i can take that test and others then can know and accept, all the while realizing i am still human and so if God can accept a sinner as me as a prophet... then anyone can achieve eteranl life, showing not by one's work but by one's faith - salvation is obtained.

 

[tgwprophet]

Arnie wrotte: " There is nothing unique or special about me , I claim no special abilities , I have no talents as a prophet, Yet God has put me in a position of great responsibility..."

Well said Arnie, I feel the same way about me, meaning if I can "be somebody" in God's eyes, so can you. by that "you" I mean whoever reads this. If I was asked how I feel about myself compared through God's eyes.. I woud say a disgrace, but thanks to Jesus, though I be not worhty, I am accepted.

Arnie wrote: " If you happen to be one of them the proof will come on its own terry . Both to confirm it to yourself , and to confirm it to others. At least that is how it has worked out for me so far. "

Agreed... and well said. Arnie, however, what would the reward be after one accepts who I am by being un-able to deny it as compared to using faith and descrenment? So... I take the ridicule and I am immune to their distain in hopes that they can discover the truth while accepting this prophet still provides a prophet's reward. If they consider my mistakes, if they consider my lack of understanding, if they consider my mis-guided wisdom, if they consider my ease of anger as reasons not to accept who I am - they, deny me because I am but a human, a man. If not for those reading to be able to receive a prophet's reward - I would never have disclosed what God's plan is for me without great consideration and then only in private.

When I am impowered as a prophet for the 1,260 days... it is then I will give prophecy, it is then I will display greater wisdom, it is then lack of understanding will be in accordance with God, for it is then I will be a working prophet. All why i stated so many times, one should not use denail without proof or evidence. As far as the ease of anger goes...it is a tool I will require and one that needs strenghtening.

 

[John_8:32]

Me too retrobyter .... i went to my control panel and put daq on my ignore list ..... but I had to put you (retrobyter) on as well because you quote all of daq's posts.

Daq is a waste of time and space .

afaithfulonefor you is also now on my ignore list.

All of a sudden this forum is much easier to read.

thank you LORD

Won't be long before you will be ignoring everyone. Might as well add me.

 

[daq]

Won't be long before you will be ignoring everyone. Might as well add me.

Hi John. What can be said for a man who would cut himself off from his brethren? Apparently this one may also fancy himself as possibly one of the two witnesses by the tenor of some of his statements. Perhaps what these two do not realize is that they do, in fact, have the power to shut heaven; but only their own air, sky, and even the heavens above themselves, (and anyone who follows their doctrines of the mind and eyes of the flesh). Likewise the same breathe fire out of their mouths upon all those whom they consider to be their "enemies" in the great congregation even though the Scripture clearly states "Thou shalt not kill." Likewise again each one has his own keys in the kingdom of heaven like Peter, (for the man is "the porter" of the doors of the house while the "House Master" is away) yet these have taken their own keys, which were given unto them from above, and opened the well of the mouth of the abussos-pit to their own detriment within their own chambers of the imagery of their minds. Therefore when they open their mouths it is like the opening a bottomless pit; thick black smoke billows forth from out of the well of the abyss, even as the smoke of the great furnace of Egypt, (great of flesh and like a dragon in the midst of his rivers and seas). Their own sun and their own air become darkened by reason of the smoke of the abussos-pit that they themselves have opened with their own keys. And from the billowing black smoke come forth the legions of the locusts of their doctrines upon their own lands, (but only upon their own lands because the man is also the Land in the eyes of the Creator). For this genos-kind it will certainly come to pass that the same will eventually astonishingly desolate both his own city and his own temple; and then the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him, and then all the saints shall know who did overcome in the End; and who is yet a Jude 1:12 "twice dead" castaway fish. And the carcass of them shall be three days and the hemisu upon the high places of the field; for wheresoever the carcass is, there shall the eagles be gathered together, to the great supper of the Almighty God…

As a pit wherein is no water; they have hewn for themselves broken cisterns ~

Jeremiah 2:12-13 KJV
12. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.
13. For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The zealots were evil man and that would be represented by the number 6. There were three groups, thus 666.

The problem with that assessment is that 666 is written six hundred and sixy six, in Greek numerals. There is a common misconception that the number 666 is speaking of three sixes, or an unholy trinity.

 

[daq]

Quote:]"So Daq I would be interested in hearing your opinion of 2 Thes 2:4

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Naos temple Paul speaks about, in your opinion is it flesh or stone?"[End Quote.
17771-Temples Post#6

The subject matter of this reply is more appropriate to this thread. The problem with the II Thessalonians 2 passage is mainly verse seven. As for verse four the question for myself has already been answered in the thread where this question was asked: should I or should I not follow the understandings and doctrine of the Master in my own understandings and interpretation of Naos? When Yeshua spoke of the Naos he clearly spoke of the temple of his body, (a link to the thread is provided above). There are indeed two temples but both of them are supernal. The one is the whole Body of Messiah of which disciples and believers are members being different parts of the whole. The other is my own body-temple; which is no more my own since I first entered into the Yeshua faith. Both of these temples are revealed in I Corinthians 6:15-20, (the final portion of half of verse twenty is in italics because it is only found in the Textus Receptus).

1 Corinthians 6:15-20 KJV
15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple [GSN#3485 naos] of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So we have revealed to us in this passage that there is the greater "Body of Messiah" of which we are all "members" but also, we have revealed to us, that our own bodies are also naos-temples of the Holy Spirit and our own bodies are therefore no longer our own, (for we are purchased by the Blood of the Lamb). Yet neither of these two temples have anything to do with any physical temple buildings made with hands. Therefore, even if I did not have the four Gospel accounts and the usages of Hieron and Naos according to the Master, I still would not believe that Paul has any other intent from what is presented here in the Corinthians passage above. Likewise TV and satellite were obviously not around in the time that Paul warns the Thessalonians concerning the day of the Lord and our gathering together unto him. How long should we suppose it would have taken for word to get to Macedonia that someone had seated himself in the physical temple building on the temple mount in Jerusalem calling himself God? And if they got word in time to take action then how should they be capable of heeding also the words of the Master to flee Judea when they are in fact already in Macedonia? You will find that much of the modern dispensational doctrine hangs on passages which are in dispute and the following is yet another one of those such passages. Here below the word "mesos" is translated "way" (one of the very few times) when in truth it surely means "midst" or "middle" and likewise "ginomai" (also a very common word) is translated "taken" when in fact it means "to come into being", "to happen", or "to become". Unfortunately all of the major English translations followed suit with ye good ole' king James and his court:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's #'s)
7.
|3588| the
|1063| For
|3466| mystery
|2235| already
|1754| works
|3588| of
|0458| lawlessness,
|3440| only
|3588| he
|2722| restraining
|0737| now,
|2193| until
|1537| out of
|9999| {the}
|3319| middle
|1096| it comes.

Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.

Original Strong's Ref. #1096
Romanized ginomai
Pronounced ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):
KJV--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 TUA
7. To garmusterion ede energeitai tes anomias, monon hokatechon arti heos ek mesou genetai.
7. "For the mystery of lawlessness already is energized; only he-that-it [is being] restrained for now, until out of the midst it comes."

And what is katecho-restraining the mystery of lawlessness if one is truly a disciple and follower of Messiah and his doctrine? The following are all of the usages of katecho in the Gospel accounts. Perhaps the traveling companion of Paul has an answer:

Matthew 21:38 KJV
38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize [GSN#2722 katecho] on his inheritance.

John 5:4 KJV
4. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had [GSN#2722 katecho].

Luke 14:9 KJV
9. And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take [GSN#2722 katecho] the lowest room.

Luke 4:42 KJV
42. And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed [GSN#2722 katecho] him, that he should not depart from them.

Luke 8:15 KJV
15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, [GSN#2722 katecho] and bring forth fruit with patience.

Original Strong's Ref. #2722
Romanized katecho
Pronounced kat-ekh'-o
from GSN2596 and GSN2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):
KJV--have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Matthew 21:38 Luke 14:9 John 5:4

These are all of the instances where "katecho" is employed in the Gospel accounts and the most important of them occurs in the Gospel account of Luke who was the same "physician" ("doctor of the law") and traveling companion of Paul. And in all instances it is the people or the person who is doing the retaining, keeping, holding close, whether it be malignant such as a disease or malady such as in John 5:4, (found only in the Textus Receptus) or whether it be adhering, retaining, keeping, holding close to the Master and his doctrines. The Parable of the Sower from Luke reveals that these things are retained in the heart, (and lawlessness is restrained from the heart) and this is exactly what restrains or "holds at bay" the mystery of lawlessness-iniquity. Seeing that the conclusion of these things pertains to the keeping the commandments of Messiah the KJV "bias" and possible reasoning for the mistranslation of the II Thessalonians 2 passage becomes more readily apparent; for it is almost always concerning matters of Torah "having been done away" where king James and his court mistranslated the New Testament. In addition there is precedent in the Gospel accounts for what Paul states in the Thessalonians passage concerning the lawless one rising up from the midst. All things concerning the New Testament Epistles and writings flow from the doctrine of the Master in the Gospel accounts because the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Prophecy:

John 10:1-2 KJV
1. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up [GSN#305 anabaino] some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Original Strong's Ref. #305
Romanized anabaino
Pronounced an-ab-ah'-ee-no
from GSN0303 and the base of GSN0939; to go up (literally or figuratively):
KJV--arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

Revelation 11:7 KJV
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth [GSN#305 anabaino] out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And even the form of "anabaino" is identical in both passages:

John 10:1 TUA
1. "Amen amen lego humin, ho me eiserchomenosdia tes thuras eis ten aulen ton probaton alla anabainon allachothen ekeinos kleptes estin kailestes.

Revelation 11:7 TUA
7. Kai hotantelesosin ten marturian auton, to therion to anabainon ek tes abussou poiesei met auton polemon kainikesei autous kai apoktenei autous.

This "beast" climbs-ascends up into the "sheepfold" and likewise into the temple-house of the man …

 

[daq]

So then, IF one does not have the "fertile soil of Judaea" which is of the 'adamah-soil heart, (Parable of the Sower) then neither would the same have an adequate understanding of the "mountains" for which Yeshua speaks when he admonishes the disciples and all to flee to the mountains when all the supernal signs come to pass, (for every man has a fig branch and a vine and none shall be alone in his appointed times).

Temples ~ Reply #18

Mark 13:14 KJV
14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

And where is that Tsebiy-Beautiful Land of the 'adamah-soil of Judaea?
And what are "the mountains" we flee into when "the Assyrian" comes in like a flood?
They are Mount Horeb the Mountain of God, Mount Olivet the holy Mountain, Mount Zion in the sides of the north;
Har'El the Altar and Mountain of God, and 'Ari'eyl which is the same:

Isaiah 29:1-7 KJV
1. Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2. Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3. And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4. And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5. Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away:
yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6. Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7. And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

---

Ha-Tamiyd

In all of the "abomination of desolation" passages of the Book of Daniel we find that HSN#8548 "tamiyd" is employed and is generally translated as "daily sacrifice" in the various English renderings. However, the word "sacrifice" has its own various Hebrew words and NONE of them are found in these same passages used in conjunction with Tamiyd. The only exception to this fact is found in Daniel 9:27 which does not use Tamiyd but does employ both "zebach" (sacrifice) and "minchah" (oblation) yet speaks in a slightly different context, (the zebach and minchah are shabath-ceased and "upon a wing of abominations shall be desolation"). In short when the word "sacrifice" is added into the Daniel passages along side the word "tamiyd" then the understanding of those passages, as well as the Daniel 9:27 statement, is corrupted in the mind of the reader.

Daniel 11:31 KJV
31. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [HSN#8548 tamiyd] sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Original Strong's Ref. #8548
Romanized tamiyd
Pronounced taw-meed'
from an unused root meaning to stretch; properly, continuance (as indefinite extension); but used only (attributively as adjective) constant (or adverbially, constantly); ellipt. the regular (daily) sacrifice:
KJV--alway(-s), continual (employment, -ly), daily, ([n-])ever(-more), perpetual.

Daniel 11:31 TUA
31. Uwzro`iym mimenuw ya`moduw wchilluw hamiqdash, hama`owz. Wheciyruw hatamiyd. Wnatnuw hashiquwts mshowmem.

As may be clearly seen in the Daniel 11:31 Transliteration above there is no such word concerning a "sacrifice" of any kind, (`olah, zebach, minchah, etc.) but rather Ha-Tamiyd continual-perpetual, the Bread-Word, is cut off from the polluted miqdash-sanctuary-chapel of the Rock, (ha-miqdash, ha-ma`owz). It is therefore according to the New Testament teachings and the doctrine of Messiah that the evil ones(s) pollute the miqdash-sanctuary-chapel of the man and cut off the Tamiyd-Word from the miqdash-sanctuary-temple. Who therefore is the wise man? He it is that builds his house upon the Rock, Yeshua, the Tamiyd-Continual-Daily-Bread-Word.

Daniel 12:11 KJV
11. And from the time that the daily [HSN#8548 tamiyd] sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Again there is nothing in the Hebrew text of Daniel 12:11 about any kind of "sacrifice" but rather it is Ha-Tamiyd, the Bread-Word, which shall be cut off by the evil one(s) so that they may set up the desolating abomination.

The first mention of "Tamiyd"-continual-perpetual in the Scripture concerns the continual Shewbread. The continual Shewbread represents the Bread of Life which is Yeshua, THE WORD. The following are the first six places where "tamiyd" is found. It is not until the sixth occurrence that we finally read of the twice-daily continual sacrifice.

The Shewbread

Exodus 25:30 KJV
30. And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me alway [HSN#8548 tamiyd].

The Seven Lamp Menorah

Exodus 27:20 KJV
20. And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always [HSN#8548 tamiyd].

The Breastplate of Judgment

Exodus 28:29 KJV
29. And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually [HSN#8548 tamiyd].

Exodus 28:30 KJV
30. And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually [HSN#8548 tamiyd].

The Embossed Gold Plate of the Mitsnepheth-Mitre

Exodus 28:38 KJV
38. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always [HSN#8548 tamiyd] upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.

The Continual Twice-Daily Sacrifice

Exodus 29:38-39 KJV
38. Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually [HSN#8548 tamiyd].
39. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

The Word-Tamiyd specifically means continual and perpetual. It does not mean "daily" and certainly not "sacrifice" which never should have been added to the Scripture because it is simply an assumption on the part of the translators. Ha-Tamiyd concerns all of the continual-perpetual holy things including even "praying without ceasing" spoken of in the New Testament. In the case of the Book of Daniel Ha-Tamiyd has the particular meaning of the Shewbread, the Bread of Life, which is Yeshua the Word, which is also "taken from the children of the bride chamber" for a season causing them to fast and endure a "famine" of the Word.

1) The Tamiyd-continual daily Shewbread, (typology of Messiah Yeshua).
2) The Tamiyd-continual Oil-Olive (Spirit) burning in Seven Lamp Menorah.
3) The Breastplate of Judgement worn Tamiyd continually upon the heart of the priests.
4) The Mitsnepheth-Mitre worn Tamiyd continually upon the forehead of the priests.
5) The Tamiyd continual twice daily zebach-minchah sacrifice-oblation.

However, concerning the continual twice-daily sacrifice, the word "yowm" ("day") is employed with "tamiyd" for the phrase "day by day, continually" ("shnayim layowm tamiyd" or "two for the day, continually"). So the fact of the matter is that when the Book of Daniel employs "tamiyd" it does not even intend to mean "daily" (which would have been one form of "yowm" or another) and especially not "daily sacrifice" as is translated in most English versions, (sacrifice, burnt offering, `olah, zebach, minchah, etc., are a whole different set of words in the Hebrew and, again, none of them are found in any of the "abomination of desolation" verses of Daniel where they are used in conjunction with "hatamiyd").

The Tamiyd literally concerns all of the holy and continual-perpetual things of the holy Priesthood, the Tabernacle, the Temple, and the Covenant. And by the "law of first mention" or "principle of first usage" when applied in the case of the abomination of desolation passages of the Book of Daniel, the Tamiyd would then necessarily concern "the Bread-Word" (as in the daily-continual Shewbread which is the first usage of Tamiyd found in the Scripture). Is there such a place in Scripture where the Word is foretold to be taken away from the saints? The place where this is found is Amos 8:11 where the Most High calls for a "famine" of the Word:

Amos 8:11 KJV
11. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

There is therefore an extremely high probability that both Amos 8:11 and Daniel 8:11 concern the very same context and is surely no coincidence that the Amos passage juxtaposes "literal bread" with the Bread of Life which is the Word of YHWH. Also of not is the fact that the word "ruwm" is found in Daniel 8:11 instead of "cuwr" which is employed in the other "abomination of desolation" passages, (both of these are words employed in the sacrificial commandments which are typology of not just Messiah but also the saints). The Tamiyd-Continual-Word in Daniel 8:11 is "lifted up", "taken up", and possibly even "exalted", (HSN#7311 ruwm). At the same time the Tamiyd is also taken "out from" or "away from" the little horn ruler, ("mimenuw"-constructive prepositional form of HSN#4480 "min"-from).

Daniel 8:11 TUA
11. W`ad Sar- hatsaba' higdiyl. Uwmimenuw huwram {*} hatamiyd. Whushlak mkown miqdashow.
11. "Even unto the Sar-Prince of the army he magnified. And mimenuw-out-from him was lifted up - taken up - exalted-ruwm ha-tamiyd-continual. And was cast down the habitation-place of his miqdash-sanctuary-chapel."

Original Strong's Ref. #7311
Romanized ruwm
Pronounced room
a primitive root; to be high actively, to rise or raise (in various applications, literally or figuratively):
KJV--bring up, exalt (self), extol, give, go up, haughty, heave (up), (be, lift up on, make on, set up on, too) high(-er, one), hold up, levy, lift(-er) up, (be) lofty, (X a-)loud, mount up, offer (up), + presumptuously, (be) promote(-ion), proud, set up, tall(-er), take (away, off, up), breed worms.

Picture first what our great High Priest Yeshua does for the people of YHWH in his Eternal ministerial position because Levitucus 16, Daniel 8, and Revelation 12 are all "companion chapters" and no one will understand any of Daniel without Torah, (which is why no one really understands it to begin with because so many either reject Torah outright or at the least attempt to separate Torah from the Prophets). There are two different words employed in the "abomination of desolation" verses of Daniel yet both are translated identical into the English. They are words which stem in this context from sacrificial commands and they go hand in hand. They are HSN#7311 "ruwm" and HSN#5493 "cuwr" which are found respectively in Daniel 8:11, Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:11. The first is to take up, lift up, exalt, raise up, ("ruwm") as already shown. The other word "cuwr" is to take away as in cutting or "chopping off" and separating. Picture a butcher with a large cleaver making a chopping type cut and then the smaller portion which he has just severed upon the block he sweeps away with the cleaver still down. That would be "cuwr" in the majority of its sacrificial applications. The word "ruwm" in the sacrificial commands is more like as if "to lift up" or "raise up" while cutting away; lifting in an upward motion, even pulling upward while cutting away the "fat" for example.

Genesis 7:17 KJV
17. And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up [HSN#7311 ruwm] above the earth.

The waters of the flood raised up, lifted up, heaved up the Ark.

Exodus 14:15-16 KJV
15. And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
16. But lift thou up [HSN#7311 ruwm] thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

Exodus 15:2 KJV
2. The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt [HSN#7311 ruwm] him.

HSN#7311 ruwn is translated "heaved up" in Exodus 29:27

Exodus 29:27 KJV
27. And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, [HSN#7311 ruwm] of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:

Apparently most translators have not comprehended the significance of the minute differences implied with these two different words employed in the Book of Daniel concerning the abomination of desolation passages. Both words are simply rendered as "take away" which is not wrong but, unfortunately, hides the full impact. It simply is not possible to see this in translation without a deeper study into the Word. Perhaps where the two words appear together in the context of the sacrificial commandments this fact will appear a little more clearly:

Leviticus 4:8-10 KJV
8. And he shall take off [HSN#7311 ruwm - upward motion] from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
9. And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away, [HSN#5493 cuwr - separate, put aside]
10. As it was taken off [HSN#7311 ruwm - lifted off] from the bullock of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall burn them upon the altar of the burnt offering.

The fat was cut away, with an upward motion as it was cut, and the upward motion is an inference that "all the fat" belongs to YHWH, offered up, raised to heaven, heaved, ("ruwm") and that portion is to then be "set aside" or "separated" for that purpose, ("cuwr"). The word "cuwr" is also translated as beheaded and the place where it is so translated there is no other possible way to understand it. Thus the word usage is perfect, intentional, and every word counts; as in Daniel, as in always:

2 Samuel 4:7 KJV
7. For when they came into the house, he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, and they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded [HSN#5493 cuwr] him, and took his head, and gat them away through the plain all night.

Original Strong's Ref. #5493
Romanized cuwr
Pronounced soor
or suwr (Hos.9v12) {soor}; a primitive root; to turn off (literal or figurative):
KJV--be[-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), X grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, X be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.

The KJV quotes here are repeated simply for comparison:

Daniel 8:11 KJV
11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, [HSN#7311 ruwm] and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 11:31 KJV
31. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away [HSN#5493 cuwr] the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 KJV
11. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, [HSN#5493 cuwr] and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The difference between these two different words both implying different aspects of "to take away" in the three verses of Daniel quoted lastly above is that Daniel 8:11 concerns firstly the exaltation and glorification of Messiah at the Cross; even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so was the Son of man lifted up, the Tamiyd-Word was both lifted up, raised up, (on a stauros-post) exalted, and then "taken up" into heaven in a cloud. The other two instances of Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 which substitute the word "cuwr" ("to behead" or "cut away") concern the saints and the trials which are to come upon them. And the saints are likewise the children of the people of Daniel including all those grafted into the same Olive Tree of YHWH.

These things concern the circumcision of your heart dear brother and sister in Messiah. And though your heavens and your earth shall pass away; the words of Messiah shall not pass away. And till heaven and earth do pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all of it be fulfilled. However it is by mo`ed-appointment only, and the Father only knows the evening and the morning; but what shall be required of you? And what is that "fat" of the sacrifice that you shall offer up? Is it not two ox-head rulers of the thousands and three smaller horn rulers of the hundreds? Every old man shall bring them but only the sons will forfeit them in that great day; for the ancient and the old man, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail, (Isaiah 9:15).