Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

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Paul Christensen

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What caused me to see through the theatrical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, babbling in public tongues, and falling down, was when I decided to observe the pastor and church elders to see if they joined in. I found that although the pastor encouraged the manifestations, he never manifested any of it himself, nor did the church elders. This showed me that there was manipulation going on, a type of hypnotic suggestion that triggered people to do the extreme manifestations.

A good example from a pastor with a sense of humour and a realistic view of spurious manifestations was when he told the congregation that after a five second countdown a wave of glory would sweep through the church. He did the countdown and as soon as he said, "Zero!" pandemonium broke out all through the congregation with all sorts of manifestation and emotional outbursts. When it all died down, the pastor said, "Did you feel that?" Many cried out, "Yes we sure did!" The pastor then said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!" What he did was to show how hypnotic suggestion works with a crowd of people.

This is what happens when Benny Hinn waves his hands at a group and they all fall down. A hypnotist does the same thing to a group when he says, "Sleep!" and waves his hands at the group and they all fall asleep.

Hillsong music does the same. The particular nature of it causes people to go into trances, increasing in intensity and at the climax manifestations happen. I saw a video where the pastor wanted to calm the people down to go to the next part of the meeting, but he couldn't get control of the people for around 15 minutes, because the people had been hypnotised by the music to such a state that it took all that time for people to come back down to earth.

But if you observe the pastor and leadership team in these meetings, you will see that they remain cool as cucumbers. They are the ones manipulating the people while they themselves don't allow themselves to enter into the hypnotic suggestion and manifestations.

Not all Charismatic churches are like that, but if you find yourself in a meeting where these things are happening, watch the leadership team and how they manipulate the people into the sensory and emotional trance states. You will also find that the true Gospel of Christ is never preached in those meetings. It will always be God will bless you and make you prosperous, healthy, and that Jesus will be your friend and will give you what you claim for.
 
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Truman

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I see the flow of the Holy Spirit as the river. I see the word of God as the river banks.
The Spirit without the word and we'll blow up.
The word without the Spirit and we'll dry up.
The Spirit with the word and we'll grow up. :)
 
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Curtis

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Yea, hath God said that He wants everyone healed of disease?

Yea, hath God said that He wants everyone wealthy?

Yea, hath God said that we can command angels?

Yea, hath God said that we will receive visions?

Yes. The day of Pentecost, Peter said:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Yea, hath God said that we must speak in tongues?

You don’t have to, but everyone who is filled with the HS does, and Peter made clear on Pentecost that the gift of the HS in operation that day, “is for you, your children, those afar off, even to AS MANY AS GOD SHALL CALL”. Acts 2:39 The gift hasn’t ceased.

Yea, hath God said that He has never closed the canon?

This statement shows you don’t understand that prophecies spoken aloud in the church and interpreted, have nothing to do with adding to scripture or giving out new doctrines, just as they didn’t when the church at Corinth had such prophecies in their church.

Yea, hath God said that we will receive prophecies from Him outside the Bible?

Yes.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


Yea, hath God said that we will be able to see and cast out demons?
Yes. John 14:2 Jesus said he who believes in me, will do the same works I do.

He cast out demons by the Dunamis power of the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:38, same Dunamis HS power believers receive after the HS comes upon them, Acts 1:8.
 
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Curtis

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Yea, hath God said that He wants everyone wealthy?

Yes.

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
 
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Rita

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The general understanding of "Charismatic" is a person focused on tongues and healing. This is derived from the Pentecostal notion (not supported by Scripture) that anyone who is "Spirit-filled" must speak in tongues. Which makes it a universal gift contrary to Scripture. And since Jesus DID NOT speak in tongues but was Spirit-filled 100% of the time, we can see how false this is.

The Charismatic Movement definitely caused a lot of spiritual confusion, since there were even Charismatic Catholics who were fully committed to the false doctrines of their church yet "Spirit-filled"!
I agree with you about the damage some have done with regards to presuming that everyone who is spirit filled should be able to speak in tongues. I do believe that the gifts have continued, but the Holy Spirit gives the gifts, it’s not for us to dictate who he gives them to, I can not speak in tongues.
Not sure we know if he spoke in tongues Enoch, scripture tells us that Jesus often went to a solitude place and prayed ,it doesn’t actually say how he prayed......so I don’t think we can say for sure that he didn’t use a heavenly language. Rita
 
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Paul Christensen

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I see the flow of the Holy Spirit as the river. I see the word of God as the river banks.
The Spirit without the word and we'll blow up.
The word without the Spirit and we'll dry up.
The Spirit with the word and we'll grow up. :)
John Owen said:
Revelation that is not consistent with God's Word is heresy.
Revelation that is consistent with God's Word is superfluous.
 

Mayflower

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I say yes what with fake healings,false prophecy, speaking things into existence, send me 5 dollars and God will give you 500.
All kinds of nonsense....but that's my belief.

Yep... If you believe that way it will never happen to you. You reap what you sow.
 

Mayflower

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I think some people lack the faith to be part of healings and prophecy.

Sad part is we are all given the same measure of faith. Many, many are just not exercising it. I know I have not... In all the years I have been a Christian now, up until this point in life, maybe a few years ago, I didn't realize how many limits I put on God. My God is not dead. He is surely alive. Everything in Bible times is still for today. God still heals, still works miracles, people are still being raised from the dead. God is still working. Praise God He is still working.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Romans 12:3 KJV

THE measure. We already have faith. It is just what is done with it that is important. Praying for a car dealership was faith that God was speaking to Charismatic lady.
 
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Pathfinder7

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My experience with Charismatic Movement started in 1970's.
- learning/experiencing spiritual gifts..
---
There are many camps/streams in Charismatic Movement/Renewal.
- Different views/perspectives on issues, etc..
---
Any movement in Christian history went through criticisms.
- Example: Revival/Spiritual Awakening movements..
- It can be messy & controversial.
- Because it breaks..existing pattern/establishment.
----
Interesting to note:
Charismatic Movement became..another establishment.
- That is the pattern of movements.
- After the first generation, the focus changes..
- More on..'status, recognition, etc...'
---
I am working on book project.
- One part of the book is on..'Spiritual Awakening/Renewal movements
& Impact on Missions' in Christian history.
 

Truman

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The name "Christensen," is of Danish and Norwegian origin.
My parents' family tree puts my ancestors at Normandy during the 1500s, which is where my last name, originally, "De Cotes," originated.
I believe I'm descended from Vikings. We might be related. :)
 

Truman

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My experience with Charismatic Movement started in 1970's.
- learning/experiencing spiritual gifts..
---
There are many camps/streams in Charismatic Movement/Renewal.
- Different views/perspectives on issues, etc..
---
Any movement in Christian history went through criticisms.
- Example: Revival/Spiritual Awakening movements..
- It can be messy & controversial.
- Because it breaks..existing pattern/establishment.
----
Interesting to note:
Charismatic Movement became..another establishment.
- That is the pattern of movements.
- After the first generation, the focus changes..
- More on..'status, recognition, etc...'
---
I am working on book project.
- One part of the book is on..'Spiritual Awakening/Renewal movements
& Impact on Missions' in Christian history.
Your book sounds very interesting.
 
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Truman

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I relate moves of God with the growth of coral.
Unlike dead coral, however, life can, and is, still found in older moves.
Revival, at it's basic form, is a personal revival.
According to my understanding. :)
 

Pathfinder7

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To: TL Post #53
Spiritual Awakening/Renewal movements often bring
fresh vision of Missions..in Christian history.
- I found interesting stories..when I was doing research for the book.
 
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Josho

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It was not the Charismatic movement, but it was people prostituting the gifts of the Holy Spirit and trying to put a price tag on what is freely given.
 
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amadeus

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I agree. There are churches that have the gifts of the Spirit with members who never use them. There are other churches that don't advertise the gifts of the Spirit, but have members who believe in the gifts and desire to have them manifested. Even in churches that teach cessation of the gifts have members who believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today.

This is because the church one goes to does not define who is to believe in and has the gifts of the Spirit available to them. I believe that even in John MacArthur's church there are those who believe in the present day manifestation of the gifts, and I wouldn't be surprised if they prayed in tongues in their private prayer times, although they would know they would attract a lot of flak and possibly be required to leave Grace church if it was revealed that they used the gift of tongues even in private prayer.
Essentially I do agree! On the one hand are the leaders who invoke a Pharisee type of suppression in spite of God. On the other hand there are those who gifted of God yield to their gifts in spite of men. Where then is the Body of Christ? Help all dear Lord to come into it as You lead and direct us! Who is our Head and who are we?
 

amadeus

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...It is the same with the gifts of the Spirit. They belong to the Holy Spirit for the use of those who have ministries in the church. The Holy Spirit decides who is going to manifest which gift, and He is no respecter of persons. If a person says that he owns a spiritual gift, then what he is manifesting is false and not in the Spirit. The genuine person who manifests a gift of the Spirit knows that it is the Holy Spirit working through him and knows it is not because he is a special person who deserves the gift, but that the Holy Spirit has decided that he is the must suitable person to manifest that gift. He may manifest that gift only once and never again, but the next time the Holy Spirit wants to use him, he may manifest a totally different gift...

The true manifestation of the gifts humbles a believer and leaves him or her in awe that the power of the Holy Spirit moved through them to accomplish His will in the fellowship of believers.

Give God the glory!
 

amadeus

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It was not the Charismatic movement, but it was people prostituting the gifts of the Holy Spirit and trying to put a price tag on what is freely given.
And some would like to have the gifts of God for their own glory rather than for God's with no understanding or real appreciation for God's will in the matter!

"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." Acts 8:13-23
 
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Truman

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I first experienced the charismatic movement in 1973 at the Queensway Cathedral Pentecostal church.
As a leader read John 3:16 to me, I had a vision of a sword thrust into my belly. I instantly believed it and have ever since.
The charismatic movement was a genuine move of the Holy Spirit; shall we blame God for what we do?