Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

[Truman]

Give God the glory!

As I finished reading post #57, I thought, "Where's the "glory to God?"
Then I looked down...Lol! Amadeus, I thank God for your faithfulness, in other words, "Glory to God!" :)

 

[amadeus]

I first experienced the charismatic movement in 1973 at the Queensway Cathedral Pentecostal church.
As a leader read John 3:16 to me, I had a vision of a sword thrust into my belly. I instantly believed it and have ever since.
The charismatic movement was a genuine move of the Holy Spirit; shall we blame God for what we do?

Yes, this charismatic movement has been around a very long time. I remember also in the 1970's at my secular work place I joined in with a group of fellow workers during our lunch break to praise God every day. It was the first time I heard and began to understand the word, 'charismatic'. One of my good friends in that group was still a practicing Catholic. He helped me, a practicing Pentecostal, to understand that God is no respecter of persons not even due to their church affiliations or the lack thereof.

Give God the glory indeed!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What caused me to see through the theatrical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, babbling in public tongues, and falling down, was when I decided to observe the pastor and church elders to see if they joined in. I found that although the pastor encouraged the manifestations, he never manifested any of it himself, nor did the church elders. This showed me that there was manipulation going on, a type of hypnotic suggestion that triggered people to do the extreme manifestations.

A good example from a pastor with a sense of humour and a realistic view of spurious manifestations was when he told the congregation that after a five second countdown a wave of glory would sweep through the church. He did the countdown and as soon as he said, "Zero!" pandemonium broke out all through the congregation with all sorts of manifestation and emotional outbursts. When it all died down, the pastor said, "Did you feel that?" Many cried out, "Yes we sure did!" The pastor then said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!" What he did was to show how hypnotic suggestion works with a crowd of people.

This is what happens when Benny Hinn waves his hands at a group and they all fall down. A hypnotist does the same thing to a group when he says, "Sleep!" and waves his hands at the group and they all fall asleep.

Hillsong music does the same. The particular nature of it causes people to go into trances, increasing in intensity and at the climax manifestations happen. I saw a video where the pastor wanted to calm the people down to go to the next part of the meeting, but he couldn't get control of the people for around 15 minutes, because the people had been hypnotised by the music to such a state that it took all that time for people to come back down to earth.

But if you observe the pastor and leadership team in these meetings, you will see that they remain cool as cucumbers. They are the ones manipulating the people while they themselves don't allow themselves to enter into the hypnotic suggestion and manifestations.

Not all Charismatic churches are like that, but if you find yourself in a meeting where these things are happening, watch the leadership team and how they manipulate the people into the sensory and emotional trance states. You will also find that the true Gospel of Christ is never preached in those meetings. It will always be God will bless you and make you prosperous, healthy, and that Jesus will be your friend and will give you what you claim for.

I never understood the things I've heard about these churches that handled snakes, barked like dogs ...weird stuff and why would that be spiritually beneficial? The wave of people collapsing going through the crowd? "Are they all pretending? ... Is this real?" I went to a Benny Hinn convention. The thing is, he spent an hour praising and worshipping God, nothing but thankfulness, adoration, love for God. Then the show started. The wave passed by, I felt nothing, thought I was missing out. I was a young Christian 28 years ago, within 2 years of being saved so I was learning. I told my year 8 year old daughter forcefully, "Put your hands up ... Praise God!" Nothing happened. I was disappointed ... I'm doing something wrong I thought ... My heart was there - but the force was not in me! I think Yoda could have helped me in that moment. I guess maybe someday it will happen when I am more spiritual like the rest of these folks?"
I did grow grow spiritually and in knowledge but I am still afraid of rattle snakes! I moved four years ago and prayed for God's protection, that He would keep poisonous snakes away from my family and my dog and the only time I saw one was crossing the street and I was driving - I drove by it and felt a spiritual wave go through me - it whispered, "Stop the car, back up, run it over and kill it _ two or three times to make sure!" I just don't know what got into me, killing God's creatures? Sorry animal lovers out there. Only joking! Seriously, I thought this snake would someday bite some person or dog and maybe I was wrong ... Or maybe it was this unction that Jessie Duplantis talked about. Lol, You have to have a sense of humor talking about this stuff. You also need discernment of what is true and false.
I went to Four Square church for 12 years where they spoke in tongues and taught that spiritual gifts were real. I believe they are, and have witnessed them, use them myself. The Pastor had the gift of tongues but never used it on stage. He had the gift of teaching, prophecy ( in a sense of speaking out God's word, being filled with the Spirit) for sure. He was smart, a former PhD pharmacist turned preacher with a Masters degree in theology. Everyone at one time or another used to receive personal messages from God as if the sermon was written just for you. That's a gift. We would sometimes join together in small groups pray. I felt uncomfortable when people prayed for me in tongues, there was no interpreter and so I didn't feel that it was beneficial in any way; but knew that God knows what I need and always answered my prayers. I still never felt the need to raise hands. An act of surrender? There is a sense of a phony, put on super spiritual pretense by some when they are among Christians. Its too much sometimes ... praise God in every sentence - come on, Do you talk like that all the time or just at church? Its hard to imagine an architect discussing the blueprints among his associates praising God twenty times during the meeting.
I do believe in spiritual gifts and that God gives all of us gifts, it just many are not aware of their gifts.
But this hypnotic suggestion makes sense. Sounds like an abuse of power, manipulating people emotionally to gain control. There was another even more famous Preacher, Rheinhart Bunkie I think his name was. He would go to Africa and preach to millions. Miracles took place. I do not think he was fake.
I think there are shams and there is the real deal, we just need discernment. I would stay away from some of these churches though.

 

[Truman]

What caused me to see through the theatrical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, babbling in public tongues, and falling down, was when I decided to observe the pastor and church elders to see if they joined in. I found that although the pastor encouraged the manifestations, he never manifested any of it himself, nor did the church elders. This showed me that there was manipulation going on, a type of hypnotic suggestion that triggered people to do the extreme manifestations.

A good example from a pastor with a sense of humour and a realistic view of spurious manifestations was when he told the congregation that after a five second countdown a wave of glory would sweep through the church. He did the countdown and as soon as he said, "Zero!" pandemonium broke out all through the congregation with all sorts of manifestation and emotional outbursts. When it all died down, the pastor said, "Did you feel that?" Many cried out, "Yes we sure did!" The pastor then said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!" What he did was to show how hypnotic suggestion works with a crowd of people.

This is what happens when Benny Hinn waves his hands at a group and they all fall down. A hypnotist does the same thing to a group when he says, "Sleep!" and waves his hands at the group and they all fall asleep.

Hillsong music does the same. The particular nature of it causes people to go into trances, increasing in intensity and at the climax manifestations happen. I saw a video where the pastor wanted to calm the people down to go to the next part of the meeting, but he couldn't get control of the people for around 15 minutes, because the people had been hypnotised by the music to such a state that it took all that time for people to come back down to earth.

But if you observe the pastor and leadership team in these meetings, you will see that they remain cool as cucumbers. They are the ones manipulating the people while they themselves don't allow themselves to enter into the hypnotic suggestion and manifestations.

Not all Charismatic churches are like that, but if you find yourself in a meeting where these things are happening, watch the leadership team and how they manipulate the people into the sensory and emotional trance states. You will also find that the true Gospel of Christ is never preached in those meetings. It will always be God will bless you and make you prosperous, healthy, and that Jesus will be your friend and will give you what you claim for.

Two valid sides to this argument. I'm on both of them!

 

[Truman]

Yes, this charismatic movement has been around a very long time. I remember also in the 1970's at my secular work place I joined in with a group of fellow workers during our lunch break to praise God every day. It was the first time I heard and began to understand the word, 'charismatic'. One of my good friends in that group was still a practicing Catholic. He helped me, a practicing Pentecostal, to understand that God is no respecter of persons not even due to their church affiliations or the lack thereof.

Give God the glory indeed!

Two valid sides to this argument. I'm on both of them!

As my son would say, "Word!"

 

[amadeus]

I never understood the things I've heard about these churches that handled snakes, barked like dogs ...weird stuff and why would that be spiritually beneficial? The wave of people collapsing going through the crowd? "Are they all pretending? ... Is this real?" I went to a Benny Hinn convention. The thing is, he spent an hour praising and worshipping God, nothing but thankfulness, adoration, love for God. Then the show started. The wave passed by, I felt nothing, thought I was missing out. I was a young Christian 28 years ago, within 2 years of being saved so I was learning. I told my year 8 year old daughter forcefully, "Put your hands up ... Praise God!" Nothing happened. I was disappointed ... I'm doing something wrong I thought ... My heart was there - but the force was not in me! I think Yoda could have helped me in that moment. I guess maybe someday it will happen when I am more spiritual like the rest of these folks?"
I did grow grow spiritually and in knowledge but I am still afraid of rattle snakes! I moved to Texas four years ago and prayed for God's protection, that He would keep poisonous snakes away from my family and my dog and the only time I saw one was crossing the street and I was driving - I drove by it and felt a spiritual wave go through me - it whispered, "Stop the car, back up, run it over and kill it _ two or three times to make sure!" I just don't know what got into me, killing God's creatures? Sorry animal lovers out there. Only joking! Seriously, I thought this snake would someday bite some person or dog and maybe I was wrong ... Or maybe it was this unction that Jessie Duplantis talked about. Lol, You have to have a sense of humor talking about this stuff. You also need discernment of what is true and false.
I went to Four Square church for 12 years where they spoke in tongues and taught that spiritual gifts were real. I believe they are, and have witnessed them, use them myself. The Pastor had the gift of tongues but never used it on stage. He had the gift of teaching, prophecy ( in a sense of speaking out God's word, being filled with the Spirit) for sure. He was smart, a former PhD pharmacist turned preacher with a Masters degree in theology. Everyone at one time or another used to receive personal messages from God as if the sermon was written just for you. That's a gift. We would sometimes join together in small groups pray. I felt uncomfortable when people prayed for me in tongues, there was no interpreter and so I didn't feel that it was beneficial in any way; but knew that God knows what I need and always answered my prayers. I still never felt the need to raise hands. An act of surrender? There is a sense of a phony, put on super spiritual pretense by some when they are among Christians. Its too much sometimes ... praise God in every sentence - come on, Do you talk like that all the time or just at church? Its hard to imagine an architect discussing the blueprints among
I do believe in spiritual gifts and that God gives all of us gifts, it just many are not aware of their gifts.
But this hypnotic suggestion makes sense. Sounds like an abuse of power, manipulating people emotionally to gain control. There was another even more famous Preacher, Rheinhart Bunkie I think his name was. He would go to Africa and preach to millions. Miracles took place. I do not think he was fake.
I think there are shams and there is the real deal, we just need discernment. I would stay away from some of these churches though.

Your words are careful and not without wisdom. Keep on asking and seeking as Jesus taught. How can any of us be wrong if we sincerely do that?

 

[Truman]

Shout out to the charismatic Catholics! :)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

And some would like to have the gifts of God for their own glory rather than for God's with no understanding or real appreciation for God's will in the matter!

That is a good point. What I learned about spiritual gifts is that they are mainly used to help others, not for personal gain.
Tongues is a prayer language for personal edification. Unless there is an interpreter of tongues, how could anyone know what the message means.
Prophecy is more valuable to the congregation. I have always been drawn to prophecy but I am not aware of speaking unknown truths about a strangers life to help them. The Holy Spirit brings all truth to remembrance and to speak a particular passage at the right time when someone needs it, is God working through you. Sometimes I am aware of the Holy Spirit speaking into someone else's life, using me and sometimes _ I'm sure_ I don't have a clue _ I dont need to, it is not for me.
The word of knowledge is fascinating too. Speaking directly to someone in the audience you never met and addressing their problems is also fascinating, but rare I think. Pastors would be more equipped in this area.
GOD heals people miraculously ... If one of his trained physicians is not available. He has used dolphins, dogs, cats, horses to save people's lives and so it shouldn't seem strange that He uses us. Discerning evil spirits is real. I am in tune with that.
Exhortation is another beneficial gift. I use this often. Warning, urging people, salvation is for today ... Judgment is coming soon.
GOD uses us in many ways and most of the time we are not aware of it. Sometimes you say the right thing at the right time when someone needs it. Do you think that thought was self generated? Maybe it was wise advice coming from an experienced mature and/or trained person; but maybe it was God's message coming through you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Debate asside, you need to quit calling people lukewarm for disagreeing with you. That's a copout. Someone could call you lukewarm just as easily.

There is nothing lukewarm about me or any of my posts. One would have to be blind to think that.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I never understood the things I've heard about these churches that handled snakes, barked like dogs ...weird stuff and why would that be spiritually beneficial? The wave of people collapsing going through the crowd? "Are they all pretending? ... Is this real?" I went to a Benny Hinn convention. The thing is, he spent an hour praising and worshipping God, nothing but thankfulness, adoration, love for God. Then the show started. The wave passed by, I felt nothing, thought I was missing out. I was a young Christian 28 years ago, within 2 years of being saved so I was learning. I told my year 8 year old daughter forcefully, "Put your hands up ... Praise God!" Nothing happened. I was disappointed ... I'm doing something wrong I thought ... My heart was there - but the force was not in me! I think Yoda could have helped me in that moment. I guess maybe someday it will happen when I am more spiritual like the rest of these folks?"
I did grow grow spiritually and in knowledge but I am still afraid of rattle snakes! I moved to Texas four years ago and prayed for God's protection, that He would keep poisonous snakes away from my family and my dog and the only time I saw one was crossing the street and I was driving - I drove by it and felt a spiritual wave go through me - it whispered, "Stop the car, back up, run it over and kill it _ two or three times to make sure!" I just don't know what got into me, killing God's creatures? Sorry animal lovers out there. Only joking! Seriously, I thought this snake would someday bite some person or dog and maybe I was wrong ... Or maybe it was this unction that Jessie Duplantis talked about. Lol, You have to have a sense of humor talking about this stuff. You also need discernment of what is true and false.
I went to Four Square church for 12 years where they spoke in tongues and taught that spiritual gifts were real. I believe they are, and have witnessed them, use them myself. The Pastor had the gift of tongues but never used it on stage. He had the gift of teaching, prophecy ( in a sense of speaking out God's word, being filled with the Spirit) for sure. He was smart, a former PhD pharmacist turned preacher with a Masters degree in theology. Everyone at one time or another used to receive personal messages from God as if the sermon was written just for you. That's a gift. We would sometimes join together in small groups pray. I felt uncomfortable when people prayed for me in tongues, there was no interpreter and so I didn't feel that it was beneficial in any way; but knew that God knows what I need and always answered my prayers. I still never felt the need to raise hands. An act of surrender? There is a sense of a phony, put on super spiritual pretense by some when they are among Christians. Its too much sometimes ... praise God in every sentence - come on, Do you talk like that all the time or just at church? Its hard to imagine an architect discussing the blueprints among his associates praising God twenty times during the meeting.
I do believe in spiritual gifts and that God gives all of us gifts, it just many are not aware of their gifts.
But this hypnotic suggestion makes sense. Sounds like an abuse of power, manipulating people emotionally to gain control. There was another even more famous Preacher, Rheinhart Bunkie I think his name was. He would go to Africa and preach to millions. Miracles took place. I do not think he was fake.
I think there are shams and there is the real deal, we just need discernment. I would stay away from some of these churches though.

You have certainly experienced the good, bad, and ugly in your church experience! True worship of God comes from the heart rather than the outward physical actions. The Scripture says to rend our hearts and not our garments. We lift our hearts to the Lord before our hands. We test everything with what is written in Scripture. If it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't of God. When the Holy Spirit is active in a meeting, Christ is set forward and glorified, not the man in the white suit. We trust the Word of God as written in the Bible over and above our feelings, or anything the man at the front tells us to do.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If a person says that he owns a spiritual gift, then what he is manifesting is false and not in the Spirit. The genuine person who manifests a gift of the Spirit knows that it is the Holy Spirit working through him and knows it is not because he is a special person who deserves the gift, but that the Holy Spirit has decided that he is the must suitable person to manifest that gift. He may manifest that gift only once and never again, but the next time the Holy Spirit wants to use him, he may manifest a totally different gift.

In my younger days in an AOG church, there were those who claimed to have almost the whole nine gifts operating through them, and others were trying to collect gifts as a stamp collector collects stamps. Such people are puffed up with pride and the gifts they claim are manifestations of the flesh and not of the Spirit.

Greetings Paul, and hope you are blessed.

I do agree that this notion of somehow collecting gifts seems pretty whacked out and nonsensical to me. But now, I can't say as that I agree with your above synopsis either. "Owning" a gift is not the terminology I would use, but I do believe each person in the body was being given a gift back in New Testament times, and each uniquely as God so chose:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

The ensuing passage suggests that these gifts are each given uniquely to the various unique parts of the body:

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink [g]into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

In other words, a prophet might be the eyes; an evangelist the feet; a worker of miracles or one worth the gift of healing the hands, etc. So I think the argument that God can use anybody for anything, while potentially true, kinda flies in the face of the way God ordained the body of Christ to operate.

What do you think?

 

[CharismaticLady]

If it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't of God.

Personally, I see the Bible as showing us that God can do anything, so never put Him in a box. Even the Word tells us that when it is said of what Jesus did, that we would do those things and MORE, thus they were not to limit themselves to just what Jesus did and no more. That is legalism.

As far as handling snakes, that is presumption, therefore not of God. Mark 16:18 about picking up snakes or having no harm happen when drinking poison, that is a Hebrew idiom and only means the truth that by faith and obedience we can expect divine protection. I like 1 John 5:18 for that. But Jesus would not jump off a pinnacle expecting the angels to catch Him, just because Satan told Him to. Jesus said that was presumption.

As far as barking like dogs, that was only to express that they would do anything God asked of them, even howl at the moon, or anything that may have seemed foolish as a test. It is a long story, but that was the purpose, and I know how it began. It is like Abraham willingly killing his son just because God told him to.

There are other things that have been questioned, that I would never question. Like gold dust, or precious gems falling from the sky, or appearing out of pores. Why a Christian would attribute them to Satan is beyond me. After all, what are the buildings and streets of heaven made out of???

 

[teamventure]

There is nothing lukewarm about me or any of my posts. One would have to be blind to think that.

So you need to see the other side of the coin with your accusations towards others calling them lukewarm.
There is nothing lukewarm about any of their posts and you would have to blind to think that of them. See how thats a two way street?

 

[Truman]

There is counterfeit money because real money exists.
I walked into an unknown church in July, 1994. It was in a warehouse. There were several hundred people there.
I stayed at the back because I wanted to stay unnoticed. And I was close to a rear door, in case things got weird and I wanted to quickly leave.
The worship band sounded like early 70s California folk rock. I liked it. I was born in '58.
I waited for the minister to arrive in his suit, but a guy in jeans, Nikes, and a golf shirt took the mic instead.
Later, he told people not to pay attention to the manifestations, but to focus on Jesus.
We were invited to go up for prayer. Having stood in single-file prayer lines before, I made sure I was the last up. I was taking it slow.
As I got near to the front, I realized that people were lining up side by side. That put me on one end. I was the first to get prayed for.
A guy stood in front of me and I had God-given visions, the most important of which was my Father's love for me.
Then the guy in front of me touched me and I was knocked off of my feet. I don't know how long I was on the floor, but when I tried to get up, I couldn't.
I was terrified that others would think I was a nut because up to that point, I was convinced that people falling over in church was anything but God. I hadn't had time to think it through.
Before that day I'd lived a life of hard-core drug and alcohol abuse. Including heroin and cocaine. Since then, I've relapsed twice, once for 5 days and once for 5 months.
It's been 17 years since the last time.
And as surely as I am sitting here typing this, I know that I am on the road to my home, in the New Jerusalem.
A lesson I've learned through all of this is to trust God and love people. :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

Greetings Paul, and hope you are blessed.

I do agree that this notion of somehow collecting gifts seems pretty whacked out and nonsensical to me. But now, I can't say as that I agree with your above synopsis either. "Owning" a gift is not the terminology I would use, but I do believe each person in the body was being given a gift back in New Testament times, and each uniquely as God so chose:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

The ensuing passage suggests that these gifts are each given uniquely to the various unique parts of the body:

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink [g]into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

In other words, a prophet might be the eyes; an evangelist the feet; a worker of miracles or one worth the gift of healing the hands, etc. So I think the argument that God can use anybody for anything, while potentially true, kinda flies in the face of the way God ordained the body of Christ to operate.

What do you think?

I fully agree. It is difficult sometimes to convey every shade of meaning in a response. I concentrated on those who have the notion that they can collect the gifts as one would collect baseball cards and are only satisfied when they think they have the whole set.

But you are quite correct in that God gives gifts commensurate with the ministry He calls a person to. If a person is called to be an evangelist, then God gifts him with the tools to do the ministry effectively. The gifts may be the gift of Faith, Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom and Working of Miracles. The ministry of a Prophet may be gifted with Prophecy, Word of Knowledge, Discerning of Spirits, Interpretation of tongues. The ministry of Pastor may include the gifts of healing, prophecy, Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, Discerning of Spirits. The ministry of intercession may include Various types of tongues, Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom and Faith.

I believe that the ministries, along with the associated gifts are for those who have achieved a level of experience and maturity in order to be recognised in the body of Christ for the effective fruit of the ministry. As Paul said, leadership is not given to novices in the faith lest they be puffed up with pride and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Personally, I see the Bible as showing us that God can do anything, so never put Him in a box. Even the Word tells us that when it is said of what Jesus did, that we would do those things and MORE, thus they were not to limit themselves to just what Jesus did and no more. That is legalism.

As far as handling snakes, that is presumption, therefore not of God. Mark 16:18 about picking up snakes or having no harm happen when drinking poison, that is a Hebrew idiom and only means the truth that by faith and obedience we can expect divine protection. I like 1 John 5:18 for that. But Jesus would not jump off a pinnacle expecting the angels to catch Him, just because Satan told Him to. Jesus said that was presumption.

As far as barking like dogs, that was only to express that they would do anything God asked of them, even howl at the moon, or anything that may have seemed foolish as a test. It is a long story, but that was the purpose, and I know how it began. It is like Abraham willingly killing his son just because God told him to.

There are other things that have been questioned, that I would never question. Like gold dust, or precious gems falling from the sky, or appearing out of pores. Why a Christian would attribute them to Satan is beyond me. After all, what are the buildings and streets of heaven made out of???

While I was reading a commentary on 1 John this morning, a sentence jumped out of the page to me, as if the Holy Spirit wanted to bring my attention to it. It was significant seeing that I had been posting a lot on Facebook and these forums concerning the teaching and practices coming out of the Charismatic movement. Here is the sentence:
"It is therefore the duty of a godly teacher, that he may confirm the disciples to faith, to extol the grace of Christ as much as possible, so that we may be satisfied with that and desire nothing more."
This means that if a genuine Holy Spirit teacher is working toward having his listeners increase their faith in Christ by holding up Him as our wonderful Savour as much as he can, then that would satisfy us, and we would not desire all the additions that are seen in some Charismatic meetings.

I see gold dust and jewels raining down as additions that we don't need in order to increase our faith in Christ. It has been proved that two ladies in the Bethel church were employed to put gold glitter into the ventilation system to make it appear that gold dust was raining down. It was a deliberate deception, and this would bring reasonable doubt that other similar manifestations would be very suspect and man orchestrated rather from the Holy Spirit.

Also, physical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, falling backwards, and other uncontrolled behaviour are also additions that we don't need in order to increase faith in Christ. The Word of God says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and that the power of God is into the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. This means that all the physical manifestations going on in some meetings does nothing to increase faith in Christ, but rather distracts and turns people away from Christ and on what is happening to themselves.

Next time you are in a meeting where all these things are going on, take a close look at the leaders and see if they are manifesting the same physical jerking, shaking, falling down, etc. I'll bet you that they will be doing none of those things, while encouraging the rank and file to do them.

Also, do a bit of study concerning how hypnotic suggestion works, and then compare it with things that are happening in the meetings and how the music and actions of the worship leaders are relating to the people. Take a look at examples of pagan ceremonies where people are spaced out in trances, and then look at a typical Hillsong worship time lead by the music and singers and see if you can see anything similar.

Also, have a close look at the book of Acts and see if you can see anything similar to what you may be seeing in the meetings. Are there similarities, or differences?

Also, we can critically examine the preaching and teaching and ask ourselves the question, is the teaching Christ-centred, emphasizing faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross? Or does it ignore Christ completely and concentrate on how God can bless us physically, materially or financially?

The Scripture says that God has given us love, power and a sound mind. This means that we can examine everything that goes on in meetings and look at them with our brain engaged and our eyes open. We can have the courage to examine the ways hypnotic suggestion works with key words and music, and examine the Scriptures to see what actually should happen in a church worship service. When there are unusual events happening in a meeting, we need to be aware that things are not always what they appear to be.

 

[Truman]

To me, "your best life now" is diametrically opposed to the apostle's teaching of death to self, e.g. walking out Luke 9:23.
To me, the goal should be the inner circumcision and not financial prosperity. Whose kingdom are we trying to build?
But I don't know everything...keeping the bond of the Spirit seems quite important to the Lord.
Putting Him first, I find things go well, according to His plan for my day. :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

To me, "your best life now" is diametrically opposed to the apostle's teaching of death to self, e.g. walking out Luke 9:23.
To me, the goal should be the inner circumcision and not financial prosperity. Whose kingdom are we trying to build?
But I don't know everything...keeping the bond of the Spirit seems quite important to the Lord.
Putting Him first, I find things go well, according to His plan for my day. :)

This is what I said in another forum:

The ministry of Jesus to Israel was set as an example for all subsequent Christian ministry. This is shown in His statement: "The works that I do, you shall do also". This was proved through the ministry of the Apostles and others throughout the Book of Acts.

What we saw in the ministry of Jesus and the Book of Acts were:

Sick people healed by the power of God

demons cast out

The Gospel of Christ preached

The Spiritual gifts operating in the churches

At the turn of the 20th Century during the Pentecostal revival, we saw the same things happening. In the 1960s during the Charismatic revival also the same. The teaching was firmly Gospel-based in that Jesus came to save sinners, and everything that happened revolved around it.

But in subsequent years we have seen a trend toward personal spirituality, the desire for the "deeper life", physical manifestations, all changing direction from Christ and His finished work on the Cross, to people's personal sensory experiences.

When I first came to Christ in 1966 in an AOG church, the music was a piano and an organ and people sang the choruses and hymns with great joy and enthusiasm. The preaching was Christ-centred, straight from God's Word.

But over the last 40 years, the music has changed to "professional" music groups and singers giving a performance from the stage and "leading" the congregation in worship. The worship changed from heart-felt praise and worship to the Lord, to worshiping according to the "professional" musicians singers on the stage. It now has become, in Hillsong, music that is designed to hype up people's emotions and senses to almost a fever pitch where many actually go into trances, and when the pastor comes on the stage to calm people down, he can't, because the trance-like state of the people is out of control, and to stop it is like trying to stop a speeding train.

The preaching and teaching how now developed from Christ-centred and Gospel-based, to "God will bless you and be your friend. He will heal you on demand, and increase your prosperity". Instead of faith being rooted in God's promises, it has became a naming, claiming form of sorcery to get what the person desires for him or herself. Prayer has gone from making requests to God and trust Him for the outcome, to using it as a type of power to achieve outcomes, as if prayer has a power in itself. Using prayer like this is sorcery and witchcraft. People have used the gift of tongues in the same way by laying hands on someone and praying over them in tongues. This is using tongues as a form of sorcery, when the true use of tongues is to convey the mind of the Spirit in a prayer language to God.

Not all Charismatic churches have gone this way, but the corruption has got so ingrained that these things are now seen as part of the mainstream and an integral part of the nature of the Charismatic.

To boil the whole thing down to the simplest, the basic definition of "Charismatic" is the position that the Spiritual gifts as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are available to the church today, and the Charismatic revival happened when groups of believers accepted that and God honoured their faith as they sought Him that the Holy Spirit would activate the gifts in their groups.

The tragedy is that the true Charismatic movement has been hijacked by the false teachers, religious empire builders, practioners of Hindu Mind-Control and occult New Age spirituality, charlatans with "new" revelations, false prophets - all labelling themselves as "Charismatics".

When my Windows computer becomes corrupted and I can't fix it, I do a total new install of Windows and start again from the basics without the added software that has introduced the virus or the corruption. Maybe we need to do that with the Charismatic movement. Treat it like a virus - put it into quarantine to prevent it doing more damage to the church, and get right back to the basics of the Gospel that we see in the Book of Acts.

 

[Truman]

Nice talking with you, Paul. I've got to pick up my guitar and commune with the Lord for a bit. You have a nice evening. :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

Nice talking with you, Paul. I've got to pick up my guitar and commune with the Lord for a bit. You have a nice evening. :)

That's great. I'm a guitarist too. Rhythm guitar.