Did Christians invent the Trinity-2

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RLT63

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“The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome's original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it.

William Barclay
pp. 110-111, The Letters of John and Jude, The Daily Study Bible Series, Revised Edition, The Westminster Press, 1976.

“The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied A. D. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before A. D. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vercellensis [ninth century]).”
pp. 716-718, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies, 1971.
The Johannine Comma
 

Enoch111

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The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century.
That means absolutely nothing. How did it appear in Jerome's Latin Vulgate in the 4th century unless it was already in some Greek manuscripts, since Jerome used both Hebrew and Greek manuscripts? Secondly how could the passage make sense if this verse was missing? And William Barclay is not to be trusted. There are many other proofs that this was genuine Scripture, and I already posted that.
 

Matthias

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I agree with him here but I don't agree with his contempt for the Byzantine texts.

Agreeing with Metzger concerning the Johannine Comma evidence obviously hasn’t caused you to stop believing in the Trinity, nor should it cause any trinitarian to stop believing in the Trinity.

It’s difficult for many trinitarians to accept. For those of them among you, it’s a bridge too far. That’s where I was, when I was KJVO.

Even many among trinitarians who aren’t KJVO have difficulty with it.

P.S.

If a Greek manuscript were discovered which included it, it still wouldn’t demonstrate that John was writing about the Trinity.
 
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RLT63

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Agreeing with Metzger concerning the Johannine Comma evidence obviously hasn’t caused you to stop believing in the Trinity, nor should it cause any trinitarian to stop believing in the Trinity.

It’s difficult for many trinitarians to accept. For those of them among you, it’s a bridge too far. That’s where I was, when I was KJVO.

Even many among trinitarians who aren’t KJVO have difficulty with it.

P.S.

If a Greek manuscript were discovered which included it, it still wouldn’t demonstrate that John was writing about the Trinity.
I was never King James only but I don't agree with many of the decisions translators made in the modern versions What's the Best Bible Translation? And More Importantly, Why? - Berean Patriot
 

Matthias

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I was never King James only but I don't agree with many of the decisions translators made in the modern versions What's the Best Bible Translation? And More Importantly, Why? - Berean Patriot

Interesting article. The author will get a lot of push back.

NASB 1995 is my workhorse translation. I haven’t seen NASB 2020 yet but I’m anxious to. I wrote to the Lockman Foundation about an error in their translation of Psalm 110:1 and they wrote back to me promising to correct it in their next edition. I want to see if they did or not. If they didn’t then I’ll write to them again, attach a copy of the letter that they sent me and ask them for an explanation.
 

Matthias

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“Only two translations worth using (NASB 1995 and NKJV)” = the author of the article made a lot of Bible publishers, trinitarian translators and Christians who don’t use those two translations unhappy - if they bothered to take the time to read it.
 

RLT63

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Interesting article. The author will get a lot of push back.

NASB 1995 is my workhorse translation. I haven’t seen NASB 2020 yet but I’m anxious to. I wrote to the Lockman Foundation about an error in their translation of Psalm 110:1 and they wrote back to me promising to correct it in their next edition. I want to see if they did or not. If they didn’t then I’ll write to them again, attach a copy of the letter that they sent me and ask them for an explanation.
I have a book Differences in Bible Versions by Gary F. Zeola. He likes the NKJV
 

Mr E

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Interesting article. The author will get a lot of push back.

NASB 1995 is my workhorse translation. I haven’t seen NASB 2020 yet but I’m anxious to. I wrote to the Lockman Foundation about an error in their translation of Psalm 110:1 and they wrote back to me promising to correct it in their next edition. I want to see if they did or not. If they didn’t then I’ll write to them again, attach a copy of the letter that they sent me and ask them for an explanation.

What is the error?
 
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Matthias

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What is the error?

The Hebrew word adoni occurs 195 times in scripture. It’s never used in reference to God. It’s a title given only to men, and occasionally angels.

NASB translated it correctly 194 times. The only time NASB mistranslates it is in Psalm 110:1.

Here’s what it looks like in a translation which translates it properly:

“The LORD says to my lord …” (NABRE)

Here’s what it looks like in NASB, which translates it incorrectly:

“The LORD says to my Lord …”

“Lord” is the correct translation of the Hebrew word adonai. It is a title which is used in reference to God in scripture. The correct translation of adoni is “lord”.

The Lockman Foundation is committed to the belief that the Messiah is adonai, not adoni.

When they wrote to me they acknowledged that the Hebrew word in Psalm 110:1 is adoni, not adonai. They had to. Anyone who reads Hebrew knows that it does, and the translators of NASB are certainly able to read Hebrew. It’s indisputable.

The Lockman Foundation published their bias. They promised to correct the mistranslation and added in their letter that, even so, they are still committed to the belief that the Messiah is adonai. I don’t care about what they believe. I care about the word being properly translated.

The article @RLT63 provided says - controversially - that the only other translation worth reading is NKJV. How does NKJV translate Psalm 110:1?

“The LORD said to my Lord …”

The same mistranslation of the Hebrew that NASB made.

I haven’t checked to see how NKJV translates the Hebrew in the other 194 occurrences, but I would be very surprised if they mistranslated the Hebrew in any of them.
 

RLT63

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“Only two translations worth using (NASB 1995 and NKJV)” = the author of the article made a lot of Bible publishers, trinitarian translators and Christians who don’t use those two translations unhappy - if they bothered to take the time to read it.
I don't have a problem with using other translations.
 

Matthias

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I don't have a problem with using other translations.

I don’t either. Do you have any concern that the author of the article you linked might cause some to doubt that we have accurate and reliable translations?
 

Mr E

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The Hebrew word adoni occurs 195 times in scripture. It’s never used in reference to God. It’s a title given only to men, and occasionally angels.

NASB translated it correctly 194 times. The only time NASB mistranslates it is in Psalm 110:1.

Here’s what it looks like in a translation which translates it properly:

“The LORD says to my lord …” (NABRE)

Here’s what it looks like in NASB, which translates it incorrectly:

“The LORD says to my Lord …”

“Lord” is the correct translation of the Hebrew word adonai. It is a title which is used in reference to God in scripture. The correct translation of adoni is “lord”.

The Lockman Foundation is committed to the belief that the Messiah is adonai, not adoni.

When they wrote to me they acknowledged that the Hebrew word in Psalm 110:1 is adoni, not adonai. They had to. Anyone who reads Hebrew knows that it does, and the translators of NASB are certainly able to read Hebrew. It’s indisputable.

The Lockman Foundation published their bias. They promised to correct the mistranslation and added in their letter that, even so, they are still committed to the belief that the Messiah is adonai. I don’t care about what they believe. I care about the word being properly translated.

The article @RLT63 provided says - controversially - that the only other translation worth reading is NKJV. How does NKJV translate Psalm 110:1?

“The LORD said to my Lord …”

The same mistranslation of the Hebrew that NASB made.

I haven’t checked to see how NKJV translates the Hebrew in the other 194 occurrences, but I would be very surprised if they mistranslated the Hebrew in any of them.

If you have such a letter, would you please post it here? That should be in the public domain, because such an admission by the Lockman Foundation would be historical. Why? -I suspect you know why. It's a "foundational" belief for all translations to render 'lord' (little "l") as "Lord" (Big "L") in order to make the claim that Jesus (in quoting Ps 110) is declaring himself to be God.

Of course you are right, and that the word is undeniably little L adoni (phonetic- adonee) and not a name of God -Big L Adonai (phonetic- Adnoeye) so then it would be commendable for them to admit this and change it, but it is without doubt that they knew what they were doing when they did it and they did it on purpose. It would be shocking for them to admit that.
 
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Matthias

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If you have such a letter, would you please post it here? That should be in the public domain, because such an admission by the Lockman Foundation would be historical. Why? -I suspect you know why. It's a "foundational" belief for all translations to render 'lord' (little "l") as "Lord" (Big "L") in order to make the claim that Jesus (in quoting Ps 110) is declaring himself to be God.

Of course you are right, and that the word is undeniably little L adoni (phonetic- adonee) and not a name of God -Big L Adonai (phonetic- Adnoeye) so then it would be commendable for them to admit this and change it, but it is without doubt that they knew what they were doing when they did it and they did it on purpose. It would be shocking for them to admit that.

I have it in a file that is currently in storage. I’ll look for it and post it on here when I find it.

Do you think it will make any difference to JAT when I do?

btw, anyone who wants to can write to the Lockman Foundation. I happened to be an academic, but they will respond to anyone who makes an inquiry.
 

farouk

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The Lord Jesus Himself quoted quoted Psalm 110.1 in Luke 20.42.

Any attempt to disprove God in Three Persons and the honour rightly given to the Lord Jesus at the right hand of the Father is truly sad.
 

Matthias

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The Lord Jesus Himself quoted quoted Psalm 110.1 in Luke 20.42.

Of course. The prophecy in Psalm 110:1 is ultimately fulfilled in him.

Any attempt to disprove God in Three Persons and the honour rightly given to the Lord Jesus at the right hand of the Father is truly sad.

Any attempt to intentionally misreport the Hebrew is an intentional attempt to mislead readers.
 

RLT63

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I don’t either. Do you have any concern that the author of the article you linked might cause some to doubt that we have accurate and reliable translations?
I think there should be a footnote everywhere something was omitted or it should be included in brackets. I like the NKJV. Like the author I have concerns that the Alexandrian texts are not the closest to the originals just because they are the oldest. But with almost any version the message still comes through. I can take The New World Translation and still show you the plan of salvation. As I heard one teacher put it, if you were going to send a radio signal to North Korea you wouldn't just send one strong signal, that would be easy to block. You send thousands of signals knowing they can't block them all. God anticipated hostile jamming. The Bible is written in such a way that even if a section gets omitted the message still comes through.
 
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