Did Christians invent the Trinity-2

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Mr E

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Mar 12:35


And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
Mar 12:36

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mar 12:37

David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Is Jesus point the same if this is translated as lord?


No. Sorry @Matthias but it's a completely different point if it is rightly translated as lord and NOT a name for God.

If you translate it as Big L -Lord, you are saying that David (in spirit) hears God (Yahweh) call the Messiah (a human) another name for God. This simply doesn't happen. It's not a matter of capital letters-- when you use Big L- the translators ONLY use that as God. But that's not what the text does. Not in David's use in Psalms, which was the point Jesus was making.
 

Matthias

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No. Sorry @Matthias but it's a completely different point if it is rightly translated as lord and NOT a name for God.

If you translate it as Big L -Lord, you are saying that David (in spirit) hears God (Yahweh) call the Messiah (a human) another name for God. This simply doesn't happen.

Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. He isn’t claiming to be Yahweh.
 
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Mr E

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Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. He isn’t claiming to be Yahweh.

He's pointing out that being the Messiah is spiritual, not physical. He's emphasizing that in the Kingdom of Heaven-- God's Kingdom, the Messiah is spirit and that Kingdom is spiritual. The one seated at God's right hand, David saw as his lord/master in that spiritual sense. Most people actually get this. You never hear them say-- David Christ, the way they say Jesus Christ, but true to the scriptures both are accurately used and just as David understands that it isn't ever going to be himself seated next to God in heaven, rather it is his spiritual master seated there-- Jesus reiterates this in challenging those Pharisees.

He is saying-- You think the Messiah is a physical thing because you think it is a physical Kingdom of David's descendants. You're wrong. It's a spiritual thing and David realized it. The Kingdom is spiritual. The Kingdom is within. David saw this, you still don't, but I'm here to tell you. To declare that the Messiah is from above, and that is where he is seated at the right hand of the Father.
 

Matthias

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The Masoretic Text and The Septuagint translate it as lord?

Masoretic text (Hebrew) - adoni = lord (English)

Septuagint text (Greek) - kurios = lord (English)

adoni = kurios = lord.

Yahweh speaks to my adoni / kurios / lord.

Yahweh speaks in the prophetic oracle to a human.

The link places the Hebrew and the correct translation in English side by side.

Psalms 110 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

The Hebrew word is obviously adoni, not adonai.

That’s why the Lockman Foundation said they would correct the error in their 1995 translation in the next edition (2020).
 

Peterlag

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A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach.
 

Matthias

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Mar 12:35


And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
Mar 12:36

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mar 12:37

David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Is Jesus' point the same if this is translated as lord?

The point in scripture about Jesus is that he is “the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31).

That’s it. That’s all.

For more than that we must go outside of scripture to post-biblical interpretation of scripture. That’s where the Ante-Nicene Fathers enter the picture. People like Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen and many more.
 

Matthias

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Yes-- Do you think David thought of himself as anointed (Messiah)?

I think David and many others besides and in addition to him thought they were anointed. I don’t believe any of them believed that they themselves were the Messiah.
 
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Matthias

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David’s master / lord, the Messiah, is a human person.

Trinitarianism strikes back - here via a Baptist scholar, because JAT isn’t properly trained and equipped to do it:

”There is only one person who is Christ, and that person is divine. Thus, there is no human person named ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’ Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person.”

(William Lane Craig, “Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry?”)

Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry?
 

Mr E

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I think David and many others besides and in addition to him thought they were anointed. I don’t believe any of them believed that they themselves were the Messiah.

You do such good work to present Jesus as human, and lord as referring to a human--- then you trip over it by thinking that 'messiah' means something else. Just as lord should not be mistaken for Lord or LORD, neither should messiah be mistaken for anything besides 'anointed.'

Like 'lord' it isn't a name or a title except at the hand of translators.

The Jews would NEVER think that messiah referred to anything but a human person. (one like Moses, one from the line of David) That's precisely why they had no answer when Jesus caught them off guard and pointed out that David recognized in spirit that God was not referring to the Messiah as earthly. Yes, of course there are anointed ones, of which David would be top of mind-- but it was David himself who acknowledged the Messiah as being his master, not one far off who would come, but one present already. One superior to himself, though he was truly God's anointed on earth, he had a lord/master/anointed one in heaven.
 

Matthias

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You do such good work to present Jesus as human, and lord as referring to a human--- then you trip over it by thinking that 'messiah' means something else. Just as lord should not be mistaken for Lord or LORD, neither should messiah be mistaken for anything besides 'anointed.'

Like 'lord' it isn't a name or a title except at the hand of translators.

***

The Jews would NEVER think that messiah referred to anything but a human person.

That’s right. Jesus himself is a Jew. He didn’t think of himself as a non-human person.

***

That's precisely why they had no answer when Jesus caught them off guard and pointed out that David recognized in spirit that God was not referring to the Messiah as earthly. Yes, of course there are anointed ones, of which David would be top of mind-- but it was David himself who acknowledge the Messiah as being his master, not one far off who would come, but one present already. One superior to himself, though he was truly God's anointed on earth, he had a lord/master/anointed one in heaven.
 

Mr E

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***



That’s right. Jesus himself is a Jew. He didn’t think of himself as a non-human person.

***

At least acknowledge that the translators do the same thing with Messiah that they do with Lord. You need to put Lockman on speed dial.
 

RLT63

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Trinitarianism strikes back - here via a Baptist scholar, because JAT isn’t properly trained and equipped to do it:

”There is only one person who is Christ, and that person is divine. Thus, there is no human person named ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’ Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person.”

(William Lane Craig, “Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry?”)

Is Worship of Jesus Idolatry?
That article just confuses me.
 

farouk

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The Masoretic Text and The Septuagint translate it as lord?
By way of comparison with Psalm 110.1, some Bibles give a small 's' for 'spirit of Christ' in Romans 8 and some of them a capital, but it clearly refers to the Holy Spirit.

A lot of effort is wasted trying supposedly to 'prove' that Psalm 110.1 does not refer to the Lord Jesus.
 
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Matthias

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That article just confuses me.

What about the article confuses you?

Dr. Craig is telling us straight up what trinitarianism has taught since the 4th century.

Catholic scholars tell us the exact same thing.

Have you heard it in the churches you’ve attended? I seriously doubt it.
 

RLT63

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What about the article confuses you?

Dr. Craig is telling us straight up what trinitarianism has taught since the 4th century.

Catholic scholars tell us the exact same thing.

Have you heard it in the churches you’ve attended? I seriously doubt it.
I've been taught that the Ark of the Covenant was wood overlaid with gold, so it was gold, wood, gold and it represents Jesus. He was God (gold) he became man (wood) and he ascended to Heaven (gold).
Jesus is referred to as the “Son of Man” 88 times in the New Testament. In fact, Son of Man is the primary title Jesus used when referring to Himself (e.g., Matthew 12:32; 13:37; Luke 12:8; John 1:51). The only use of Son of Man in a clear reference to Jesus, spoken by someone other than Jesus, came from the lips of Stephen as he was being martyred (Acts 7:56).

Son of Man is a title of humanity. Other titles for Christ, such as Son of God, are overt in their focus on His deity. Son of Man, in contrast, focuses on the humanity of Christ. God called the prophet Ezekiel “son of man” 93 times. In this way, God was simply calling Ezekiel a human being. Son of man is simply a periphrastic term for “human.” Jesus Christ was truly a human being. He came “in the flesh” (1 John 4:2).

Son of Man is a title of humility. The Second Person of the Trinity, eternal in nature, left heaven’s glory and took on human flesh, becoming the Son of Man, born in a manger and “despised and rejected by mankind” (Isaiah 53:3). The Son of Man had “no place to lay his head” (Luke 9:58). The Son of Man ate and drank with sinners (Matthew 11:19). The Son of Man suffered at the hands of men (Matthew 17:12). This intentional lowering of His status from King of Heaven to Son of Man is the epitome of humility (see Philippians 2:6–8).

Son of Man is a title of deity. Ezekiel may have been a son of man, but Jesus is the Son of Man. As such, Jesus is the supreme example of all that God intended mankind to be, the embodiment of truth and grace (John 1:14). In Him “all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9). For this reason, the Son of Man was able to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). The Son of Man came to save lives (Luke 9:56; 19:10), rise from the dead (Mark 9:9), and execute judgment (John 5:27). At His trial before the high priest, Jesus said, “I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). This statement immediately ended the trial, as the court accused the Lord of blasphemy and condemned Him to death (verses 65–66).

Son of Man is a fulfillment of prophecy. Jesus’ claim before the high priest to be the Son of Man was a reference to the prophecy of Daniel 7:13–14, “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” Daniel saw glory, worship, and an everlasting kingdom given to the Messiah—here called the “Son of Man”—and Jesus applied this prophecy to Himself. Jesus also spoke of His coming kingdom on other occasions (Matthew 13:41; 16:28). The author of Hebrews used a reference to the “son of man” in the Psalms to teach that Jesus, the true Son of Man, will be the ruler of all things (Hebrews 2:5–9; cf. Psalm 8:4–6). The Son of Man, in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, will be the King.
What does it mean that Jesus is the Son of Man? | GotQuestions.org
 
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