Did Christians invent the Trinity-2

[RLT63]

What I invited you to do is select one of your own choosing and we could examine it together.

Adoni occurs 195 times in the OT and I provided a complete list of every occurrence. It is a title which is never used in scripture in reference to Yahweh.

Adon, on the other hand, is a root word, and it is used in reference to Yahweh in scripture, as well as in reference to persons who aren’t Yahweh.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 335x
The KJV translates Strong's H113 in the following manner: lord (197x), master(s) (105x), Lord (31x), owner (1x), sir (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. firm, strong, lord, master
   
   1. lord, master
      
      1. reference to men
         
         1. superintendent of household,of affairs
            
            
         2. master
            
            
         3. king
            
      2. reference to God
         
         1. the Lord God
            
            
         2. Lord of the whole earth
            
   2. lords, kings
      
      1. reference to men
         
         1. proprietor of hill of Samaria
            
            
         2. master
            
            
         3. husband
            
            
         4. prophet
            
            
         5. governor
            
            
         6. prince
            
            
         7. king
            
      2. reference to God
         
         1. Lord of lords (probably = "thy husband, Yahweh")
            
   3. my lord, my master
      
      1. reference to men
         
         1. master
            
            
         2. husband
            
            
         3. prophet
            
            
         4. prince
            
            
         5. king
            
            
         6. father
            
            
         7. Moses
            
            
         8. priest
            
            
         9. theophanic angel
            
            
         10. captain
             
             
         11. general recognition of superiority
             
      2. reference to God
         
         1. my Lord,my Lord and my God
            
            
         2. Adonai (parallel with Yahweh)
            

 

[Matthias]

KJV Translation Count — Total: 335x
The KJV translates Strong's H113 in the following manner: lord (197x), master(s) (105x), Lord (31x), owner (1x), sir (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. firm, strong, lord, master
   1. lord, master
      1. reference to men
         1. superintendent of household,of affairs
            
            
         2. master
            
            
         3. king
      2. reference to God
         1. the Lord God
            
            
         2. Lord of the whole earth
   2. lords, kings
      1. reference to men
         1. proprietor of hill of Samaria
            
            
         2. master
            
            
         3. husband
            
            
         4. prophet
            
            
         5. governor
            
            
         6. prince
            
            
         7. king
      2. reference to God
         1. Lord of lords (probably = "thy husband, Yahweh")
   3. my lord, my master
      1. reference to men
         1. master
            
            
         2. husband
            
            
         3. prophet
            
            
         4. prince
            
            
         5. king
            
            
         6. father
            
            
         7. Moses
            
            
         8. priest
            
            
         9. theophanic angel
            
            
         10. captain
             
             
         11. general recognition of superiority
      2. reference to God
         1. my Lord,my Lord and my God
            
            
         2. Adonai (parallel with Yahweh)

We’re right back where we started. We can examine any passage of scripture to see which applies where and to whom, or we can talk about something else.

 

[Matthias]

I happen to be using the NASB Quick Study Bible with the reading plan I’m following this year - the reading plan is called “The Bible Companion”. I use it once every decade, and have for the past four decades.

As with most Bible reading plans, this one may be used with any translation the reader desires to use.

Yesterday’s readings following the plan were: 1 Chronicles 11; Ezekiel 24; Luke 21.

Today’s readings following the plan is: 1 Chronicles 12; Ezekiel 25; Luke 22.

Tomorrow’s readings following the plan will be: 1 Chronicles 13 & 14; Ezekiel 26; Luke 23.

Once through the Old Testament and twice through the New Testament with this plan.

An experiment from a selection in today’s reading; first with NASB95 -

“And they all said, ‘Are You the Son of God, then?’ And He said to them, ‘Yes, I am.”

(Luke 22:70)

Then with something else -

“‘And they all said, ‘Are you God the Son, then?’ And he said to them, ‘Yes, I AM.’”

(Luke 22:70)

Any complaints, trinitarians? Did I do right by you?

How about you @RLT63?

P.S.

For anyone interested in seeing what the full reading plan looks like, here’s a link to it.

Bible Reading Plan

 

[RLT63]

QUOTE]
Yes I am is a plain way of speaking English. Before Abraham was I am is not a plain way of speaking and it's curious that the translators would phrase the statement this way. Unless you think they are trying to pull one over on us and all the translators of the modern versions are in on It too. What does the NASB say?

 

[Matthias]

QUOTE]
Yes I am is a plain way of speaking English.

So it sounds like you’re a satisfied customer with both the NASB95 and the mystery version I compared it with for Luke 22:70. Have I understood you correctly?

Be careful.

“I tell you, he’s the devil, Heine.” - Captain von Stolberg, The Enemy Below

Before Abraham was I am is not a plain way of speaking and it's curious that the translators would phrase the statement this way.

I think the statement is a plain way of speaking and don’t find it curious at all that the translators would phrase it that way.

Unless you think they are trying to pull one over on us and all the translators of the modern versions are in on It too. What does the NASB say?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

(John 8:58, NASB95)

 

[RLT63]

So it sounds like you’re a satisfied customer with both the NASB95 and the mystery version I compared it with for Luke 22:70. Have I understood you correctly?

Be careful.

“I tell you, he’s the devil, Heine.” - Captain von Stolberg, The Enemy Below



I think the statement is a plain way of speaking and don’t find it curious at all that the translators would phrase it that way.



“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

(John 8:58, NASB95)

I've never heard anyone speak that way.

 

[Matthias]

I've never heard anyone speak that way.

You have. Listen again to Jesus. He speaks that way.

Listen to Jesus from a Hebraic perspective.

 

[Matthias]

“‘I am he’ is a claim to be the Messiah and implies neither divinity nor preexistence: ‘Before Abraham’s coming, I am he,’ that is, the promised Messiah. The simple phrase ‘I am’ is used by Jesus 15 times, and in every case (but the present, John 8:58) it is rendered in the Common Version ‘I am he’ or ‘It is I.’ See Matt. 14:27; Mk. 6:50; 14:62; Lk. 21:8; 22:70; 24:39; John 4:26; 6:20; 8:24,28; 13:19; 18:5,6,8.”

(Robert Young, Young’s Concise Commentary, on John 8:58)

Fun trivia fact - which has no bearing on the “I am” statements made by Jesus: Dr. Young is most noted for his work that is familiar to almost all students of the Bible: Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, and for Young’s Literal Translation.

 

[Matthias]

Just for fun, if anyone is wondering after reading Dr. Young’s comment on John 8:58 in post #128 -

“Jesus said to them, ‘Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham’s coming, I am;’”

(John 8:58, YLT)

Inserting his commentary on John 8:58,

“I am he [the promised Messiah].”

 

[RLT63]

We’re right back where we started. We can examine any passage of scripture to see which applies where and to whom, or we can talk about something else.

Psalms 2:12 Should Son be capitalized? It is in the KJV. Do you think this is bias?

 

[Matthias]

Psalms 2:12 Should Son be capitalized? It is in the KJV. Do you think this is bias?

It is capitalized in some translations, not capitalized in other translations (ex. ASV, CJB, CEV, ERV, EXB, ICB, ISV, MEV, NCV, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, VOICE).

There are no upper case or lower case letters in Hebrew.

Are translators who refrain from capitalizing in Psalm 2:12 showing a bias?

 

[RLT63]

It is capitalized in some translations, not capitalized in other translations (ex. ASV, CJB, CEV, ERV, EXB, ICB, ISV, MEV, NCV, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, VOICE).

There are no upper case or lower case letters in Hebrew.

Are translators who refrain from capitalizing in Psalm 2:12 showing a bias?

Does it refer to Jesus? Not capitalizing it is probably not because of bias

 

[Matthias]

Let’s look at a New Testament example - John 14:1.

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.” (KJV)

Should “me” be capitalized? Is it a bias if it is? If it isn’t?

Translations that capitalize: KJ21, AMP, AMPC, DLNT, HCSB, MEV, NASB95, NKJV, NLV, RGT, TLV, VOICE.

Translations that don’t capitalize: ASV, BRG, CSB, CEB, CJB, CEV, DARBY, DRA, ERV, EHV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GNV, GW, GNT, ICB, ISV, PHILLIPS, JUB, LEB, MSG, MOUNCE, NOG, NCB, NCV, NET, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, NMB, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, NRSVUE, NTE, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, WEB, WYC, YLT.

A quick survey at Bible Gateway.

 

[Matthias]

Does it refer to Jesus? Not capitalizing it is probably not because of bias

I anticipated that you might ask that. That’s why I decided to look at a NT passage in post #133 where there is no question that the text is speaking about Jesus.

There is no reason other than theological for “me” to be capitalized. Neither the Greek manuscripts nor the context necessitates it. The choice to capitalize here is clearly a translator bias.

 

[RLT63]

I anticipated that you might ask that. That’s why I decided to look at a NT passage in post #133 where there is no question that the text is speaking about Jesus.

There is no reason other than theological for “me” to be capitalized. Neither the Greek manuscripts nor the context necessitates it. The choice to capitalize here is clearly a translator bias.

Is it wrong to capitalize pronouns that refer to God?

 

[Matthias]

The Messiah in scripture is a man (Gk. anthropos), not a God-Man (Gk. theanthropos).

We have Origen to thank for giving us the God-Man title.

 

[Matthias]

Is it wrong to capitalize pronouns that refer to God?

There are no upper case or lower case letters in Hebrew.

There are upper case and lower case letters in Greek. See the link.

https://public.csusm.edu/aitken_html/mathhistory/GreekAlphabet.pdf

There is no need to capitalize pronouns that refer to God.

There is also no need to capitalize pronouns that refer to the Messiah.

 

[RLT63]

There are no upper case or lower case letters in Hebrew.

There are upper case and lower case letters in Greek. Generally, the Greek will either be in all upper case (see the link) but lower case is also used.

https://public.csusm.edu/aitken_html/mathhistory/GreekAlphabet.pdf

There is no need to capitalize pronouns that refer to God.

There is also no need to capitalize pronouns that refer to the Messiah.

What about the first letter in a sentence?

 

[Matthias]

What about the first letter in a sentence?

In Hebrew there are no upper case letters, so the first letter in a sentence written in Hebrew wasn’t capitalized in that language.

In Greek there are upper case and lower case letters. Originally, all letters were capitalized. The first letter in a sentence was capitalized - as was every letter in a sentence.

There are no punctuation marks in Hebrew or Greek.

 

[Matthias]

There are letters for vowels in Greek.

There are no letters for vowels in Hebrew; letters are only for consonants. Vowels in written Hebrew, when used, are symbols.