Did God Create Evil?

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FHII

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But the mistake you make is by trying to separate that Isa.45:7 verse away from the rest of His Word, and treat it as an absolute for all time. If the KJV translators had rendered the Hebrew another way instead of using the word 'evil', some would still use it to wrongly assign creation of evil to God Himself.



Every destruction and evil past Gen.1:1 was because of Satan's original rebellion against God. Anyone who doesn't yet know this will... learn about it during Christ's Millennium reign, if not sooner.

I have done no such thing. There is nothing wrong with the context. God was bragging on who he was (at the moment, to Cyrus) and letting him know that there is no one else beside him. He is the God who does it all.
 

Vengle

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I am posting the following here as I believe it suits the focus of this thread:

When a particular person said, "God created him for that purpose." meaning God created the devil for the purpose of being the author of sin, that I disagree with.

That angel was a cherub. Cherubim have the charge of God to uphold holiness everywhere in God's realm. Earth was considered a part of God's realm at that time.

The Hebrew word for "cover" or "covereth" which Ezekiel 28 shows that cherub doing, refers to how they spread out the wings to protect (literally to "blockade") against unholiness. That is why the two cherubs were atop the Ark of the Covenant with spread wings. It symbolized the great importance God places on His holiness and maintaining it.

Look at the Hebrew roots of that word "covereth" at Ezekiel 28. You will see what I said.

Thus we know that angel was in the Garden of God to protect the holiness there. That angel betrayed his post all due to pride.

Fittingly, afterward we see God posted faithful cherubim to guard the way to the Tree of Life that nothing unholy be able to reach it.

Genesis 3:24 "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

If we did not panic so much when we feel as though what we believe is being challenged we might be able to proceed to learn these simple things. :rolleyes:

It is only your imagination that tells you I am your enemy. I deeply love God with every fiber of my being. I am therefore able to be your friend, not of myself, but of God.
 

veteran

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Understanding why God uses evil in judgment (during THIS world) is not difficult to grasp per His Word, but only in relation to what Satan did against Him.

Satan was originally created good, but then turned evil in rebellion against God. That's why God ended the previous world, and brought this second world we are in now. God then allows Satan to act as a destroyer upon the wicked, AND to test God's people to see if they measure up.

Here's another Scripture example where God uses simile comparison to Satan, using the flesh king of Assyria as a 'type'...


Isa 10:5-23
5 O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation.

Per the end of Isa.30, God uses "the Assyrian" as a type for Satan when referring to symbolic Tophet as the lake of fire prepared of old for him. God is speaking of the historical king of Assyria that came upon Israel, but also as a type for Satan. So much of this has a double meaning. With this verse, God reveals the Assyrian as His punishing rod upon the wicked.


Isa.10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

God's main usage of him is for the rebellious against Him, those His wrath is upon. He was using him at that time upon Israel because of their rebelliousness.


Isa.10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
8 For he saith, "Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?"

God is mocking the Assyrian using his own words, much as He did with the king of Babylon's own words in Isa.14 which is a pointer to Satan declaring he will exalt himself in place of God. The Assyrian brags of those areas of idol worship he found, and declares what he did to those other areas, he will do to Jerusalem.


Isa.10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

What does God mean when He says once He's performed "His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem"? Do you think He meant just for the historical time of the king of Assyria coming upon Jerusalem per history? A later verse will help determine that God is speaking this also of the whole time of this present world, including the coming of the last days Antichrist, and all the way up to Christ's future second coming. Satan most definitely has a hand in that working proclaimed by God's usage of him as His rod of anger upon the wicked.


Isa.10;13 For he saith, "By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped."

The Assyrian boasts of being able to conquer with not even a peep to prevent him.


Isa.10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

God's answer is that the Assyrian is nothing more than a piece of wood formed into a rod to use as punishment upon the wicked. That applies to answer of Satan's boasting against God also.


Isa.10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among His fat ones leanness; and under His glory He shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and His Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

What fire was that per history with the flesh king of Assyria? Per Isa.37, God sent an angel that destroyed 165,000 of the king of Assyria's army that was camped outside Jerusalem. The king of Assyria then went back to Nineveh where he was killed by his own sons.

These events are pointing especially to God as a consuming fire, and the future "day of the Lord" events like in Malachi 4; Matthew 12:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Hebrews 12:25-29; 2 Peter 3:10, etc. The main 'briar' to be burned up is Satan himself in the "lake of fire" after Christ's thousand years reign. Per 2 Peter 3, the end of this present world is to occur with a consuming fire upon the earth, burning man's works off it. That clearly did not happen in the days of the historical king of Assyria. That's how we can know that God is giving a double meaning with this Isa.10 example about the Assyrian as a type for Satan himself, and the end of this present world.


Isa.10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
(KJV)

That is speaking about the final... return of Israel back to the holy lands of promise, both the house of Judah and the house of Israel (ten tribes), the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 being put back together again, with their one King (Christ Jesus) ruling at Jerusalem. That is yet to occur today.

How do we know God is speaking of the end of this world with the above verses, and not just history during the king of Assyria's days? It's because by this time in Isaiah of the historical king of Assyria, he had already... taken the "house of israel" (ten tribes) captive out of the holy lands. The house of Judah at Jerusalem/Judea here were the only ones left in the land at this point in history. But those verses speak of the gathering of the remnant of Jacob, which means all Israel, not just Judah at Jerusalem.

Starting in Isa.10:28, God describes the king of Assyria coming upon Jerusalem in stages, town by town, out of the northern quarters, and names each stop along the way. That is a possible pointer for the very end of this world too, when the Ezekiel 38 armies come out of the northern quarters upon Israel on the last day.
 

Vengle

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Understanding why God uses evil in judgment (during THIS world) is not difficult to grasp per His Word, but only in relation to what Satan did against Him.

Satan was originally created good, but then turned evil in rebellion against God. That's why God ended the previous world, and brought this second world we are in now. God then allows Satan to act as a destroyer upon the wicked, AND to test God's people to see if they measure up.

Here's another Scripture example where God uses simile comparison to Satan, using the flesh king of Assyria as a 'type'...


Isa 10:5-23
5 O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation.

Per the end of Isa.30, God uses "the Assyrian" as a type for Satan when referring to symbolic Tophet as the lake of fire prepared of old for him. God is speaking of the historical king of Assyria that came upon Israel, but also as a type for Satan. So much of this has a double meaning. With this verse, God reveals the Assyrian as His punishing rod upon the wicked.


Isa.10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

God's main usage of him is for the rebellious against Him, those His wrath is upon. He was using him at that time upon Israel because of their rebelliousness.


Isa.10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
8 For he saith, "Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?"

God is mocking the Assyrian using his own words, much as He did with the king of Babylon's own words in Isa.14 which is a pointer to Satan declaring he will exalt himself in place of God. The Assyrian brags of those areas of idol worship he found, and declares what he did to those other areas, he will do to Jerusalem.


Isa.10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

What does God mean when He says once He's performed "His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem"? Do you think He meant just for the historical time of the king of Assyria coming upon Jerusalem per history? A later verse will help determine that God is speaking this also of the whole time of this present world, including the coming of the last days Antichrist, and all the way up to Christ's future second coming. Satan most definitely has a hand in that working proclaimed by God's usage of him as His rod of anger upon the wicked.


Isa.10;13 For he saith, "By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped."

The Assyrian boasts of being able to conquer with not even a peep to prevent him.


Isa.10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

God's answer is that the Assyrian is nothing more than a piece of wood formed into a rod to use as punishment upon the wicked. That applies to answer of Satan's boasting against God also.


Isa.10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among His fat ones leanness; and under His glory He shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and His Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

What fire was that per history with the flesh king of Assyria? Per Isa.37, God sent an angel that destroyed 165,000 of the king of Assyria's army that was camped outside Jerusalem. The king of Assyria then went back to Nineveh where he was killed by his own sons.

These events are pointing especially to God as a consuming fire, and the future "day of the Lord" events like in Malachi 4; Matthew 12:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Hebrews 12:25-29; 2 Peter 3:10, etc. The main 'briar' to be burned up is Satan himself in the "lake of fire" after Christ's thousand years reign. Per 2 Peter 3, the end of this present world is to occur with a consuming fire upon the earth, burning man's works off it. That clearly did not happen in the days of the historical king of Assyria. That's how we can know that God is giving a double meaning with this Isa.10 example about the Assyrian as a type for Satan himself, and the end of this present world.


Isa.10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
(KJV)

That is speaking about the final... return of Israel back to the holy lands of promise, both the house of Judah and the house of Israel (ten tribes), the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 being put back together again, with their one King (Christ Jesus) ruling at Jerusalem. That is yet to occur today.

How do we know God is speaking of the end of this world with the above verses, and not just history during the king of Assyria's days? It's because by this time in Isaiah of the historical king of Assyria, he had already... taken the "house of israel" (ten tribes) captive out of the holy lands. The house of Judah at Jerusalem/Judea here were the only ones left in the land at this point in history. But those verses speak of the gathering of the remnant of Jacob, which means all Israel, not just Judah at Jerusalem.

Starting in Isa.10:28, God describes the king of Assyria coming upon Jerusalem in stages, town by town, out of the northern quarters, and names each stop along the way. That is a possible pointer for the very end of this world too, when the Ezekiel 38 armies come out of the northern quarters upon Israel on the last day.

Amen, you speak with the wisdom given of God as did Paul when he said, Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, ..."
 

veteran

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Now the Ezekiel 31 version of God's usage of historical kings as 'types' for Satan himself. This will reveal Satan's exalted status in God's Garden prior and during his rebellion in wanting to be The GOD.


Ezek 31:1-18
1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; 'Whom art thou like in thy greatness?

God tells Ezekiel to speak this to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude. That "Whom art thou like..." is a question of comparison. So already, God is giving us notice that He's doing a comparison here and is going to be pointing to another entity in this.


Ezek.31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

What? Why does God bring up this "Assyrian" here in comparison to Pharaoh? This is not the time to forget about God's comparisons between the historical king of Assyria and Satan in Scripture like Isaiah 14 and the end of Isaiah 30 about Tophet.

God begins this with a high cedar analogy. This metaphor is used to represent kings as rulers (see Dan.4; Ezek.17). The Assyrian was like a high cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches and cast a great shadow with its shroud of limbs and leaves, of a high stature, and its top among thick boughs. The idea is of one being exalted by God.


Ezek.31:4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.

The waters that fed the high cedar made him great. Waters from the deep set him high, and the waters as rivers flowed around to all the plants around him, and then little streams went to all the trees in the field. The description is with God's River feeding the high cedar in the center of His Garden, with all sorts of goodly plants at the base around the high cedar, and those waters flowing to the rest of the trees in the Garden.

Might think that explanation so far is a jump, but not if the whole chapter is studied thoroughly and gone over again.


Ezek.31:5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.

The high cedar in the midst was exalted above all other trees in the field, because of the multitude of those waters from God's River of the waters of Life.


Ezek.31:6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.

God continues to describe this high cedar tree being exalted, giving shade to all the beasts of the field, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. At one time Egypt was a great kingdom, but it couldn't be said to be as high as this. Likewise with the historical kings of Assyria, Babylon, etc. Those empires included great nations, but certainly not all of them, otherwise they would not have been conquered by other nations as per history. That's the general idea God is pointing to though, the king of Assyria and Pharaoh of Egypt, but that's not the only one God is pointing to with this.

Many miss that per Rev.12:3-4 about the time of Satan's rebellion and drawing a third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him, that a world kingdom is mentioned along with that time. It had ten horns, ten heads, and seven crowns. It had three less crowns than the beast kingdom mentioned in Rev.13:1. We know the Rev.13:1 beast kingdom involves a world kingdom of nations because of Rev.13:2 and Rev.17:15 of what Christ said the 'waters' represent there. So here in Ezek.31 with these "all great nations" in relation to this high cedar analogy, it's double meaning is about Satan when he was originally exalted as a high cedar by God, and trying to steal God's Throne as King.

So yes, the idea of 'nations' existed at the time of Satan's original rebellion against God. This Ezek.31 chapter is giving us a hint about it.

The idea of a 'king' does not originate from flesh kings. It originates from God's Own Office as KING. Satan was not created to be a king, but a heavenly cherub to guard God's Throne. It hurt God's feelings when His people Israel saw the flesh kings of the nations around them, and wanted their own flesh king, for God was their KING already. This is why the pagan kings of history, like Pharaoh, Assyria, Babylon, etc., always serve as 'types' for Satan himself, for that's the position Satan coveted when he first rebelled. God setup those pagan kings and kingdoms of history to show us what Satan had tried to do, which is also why God has shown them all failing in this world. The only King He has setup to remain forever is His Son Jesus Christ, with David as prince.


Ezek.31:7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

As per Ezek.28, God originally created the cherub Satan the full pattern of beauty. He does not have horns on his head and wear red flannel underwear. And God said that's one of the things that corrupted him, his beauty. This "garden of God" reference is not simply about some area called Eden in the Assyrian monuments like Bit-Adini. God is talking about His Heavenly Garden and His River, and how Satan was originally exalted in it.


Ezek.31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.

Got more of a going back and forth about the historical king of Assyria as a type for Satan. God drove Satan out of His Garden, which is the idea of Satan's fall.


Ezek.31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.

After Satan's fall, there are many Bible references to these ideas of his barren branches, like briars and thorns, and lack of casting a shadow in comfort. The 'bramble' analogy of Judges 9 is specifically about Satan as a bramble bush, with the other trees asking him to come reign over them. And he asks them if they'll commit to trust in his shadow. A bramble bush doesn't give much shadow. It's an analogy for Satan's lowly status after he rebelled against God and was cast out as an 'abominable branch'. The only way to learn how God uses all these tree and branch type analogies, is to stay in study of all of His Word.


Ezek.31:13 Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches:

Recall in Matthew 13 with the parable of the sower our Lord Jesus gave. He used the idea of planting seed for God's Word going into the mind. With those whom that seed doesn't take root or is closed off, the fowls eat up the seed, or the thorns take over and choke the seed out. These are all symbols He used from His Word in The Old Testament Books of the prophets like these fowls and beasts upon this fallen one's branches (i.e. Satan).


Ezek.31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

With that God is pronouncing death to the king of Assyria, and to Satan, as with those like the children of men that go down to the grave. We saw that kind of metaphor used upon Satan also back in the Isa.14 example.


Ezek.31:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

What event with the king of Assyria was this? This is more about Satan's fall than death of the flesh king of Assyria. These flood waters are about the time of Gen.1:2 when God stayed the waters upon the earth that destroyed "the world that then was", the time when Satan first rebelled against Him.


Ezek.31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

God shook the whole earth back at that time. As per Jer.4, the mountains trembled, and the hills moved lightly, and all the cities were broken down at the presence of The LORD. God is speaking of more than just a simple grave there. He's speaking of the time of Satan's fall from Heaven, and the fall of his angels that rebelled with him, and the end of that world than then was. Artifacts buried under the oceans of those ancient cities are still being found today, though most consider such artifacts to be from the time of Noah's flood.


Ezek.31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

Now God reverts back to His speaking this about Pharoah. But He is not just speaking of flesh kings like Pharaoh and the king of Assyria, but about Satan himself.
 

FHII

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Veteran, you are spending a whole lot of time trying to prove something that isn't in the scripture (that Satan is a man) as well as trying to disprove something that is in the scripture (God created everything including evil).
 

veteran

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Veteran, you are spending a whole lot of time trying to prove something that isn't in the scripture (that Satan is a man) as well as trying to disprove something that is in the scripture (God created everything including evil).

Obviously, none of that is meant for you. And you don't do other people's thinking for them; they can decide for theirselves.
 

FHII

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Obviously, none of that is meant for you. And you don't do other people's thinking for them; they can decide for theirselves.
Yep.... From your point of view, they can listen to what the Bible says or they can listen to you. I do suppose the choice is theirs.
 

Vengle

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Veteran, you are spending a whole lot of time trying to prove something that isn't in the scripture (that Satan is a man) as well as trying to disprove something that is in the scripture (God created everything including evil).

It is pretty obvious that Satan is not a man, right Veteran?

But not so obvious that some men are Satan?

Or, maybe that too is obvious. :rolleyes:

Satan = Resistor

devil = slanderer
 

justaname

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It is pretty obvious that Satan is not a man, right Veteran?

But not so obvious that some men are Satan?

Or, maybe that too is obvious. :rolleyes:

Satan = Resistor

devil = slanderer
I see two kingdoms, the kingdom of God and Satan's kingdom.

Every created being falls into one or the other. It is God alone who is sovereign over both.

Shalom
 

justaname

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:) You are OK to believe as you need to for now. Do not let the fact that I now see it different deter you. I had every right to believe as I did when I used to believe what you say there. And so do you. I only post it in case anyone is ready to move further into a fuller understanding. As I said, the things I stated are only the scarce touching of the mountain high body of evidence which exists in the scriptures. And now that anyone is aware that they can unafraid look to see it they can do so on their own and are no longer trapped lest they want to be. (Revelation 21:8; 1 John 4:18) As to the last thing you said, "Proving the point God uses evil, the purpose of the thread." I agree within qualification that God uses it within the righteous cause of justice which he himself is the standard setter for. So I understand and agree also with aspen's point. I see no real conflict. What I see is more a striving of humans, one to be right over another. But the basic thing being spoken of by both of you is identical. Here is how simple it is: If God takes a man's own evil and turns it back upon him so that he reaps what he sows and experiences the fruit of his own ways, what is that? Clearly it is God using evil for a just cause. And it proves as you said previously that God has complete authority over everything, even over evil. Aspen's concern is as mine that there are people out there who see God as of a bad nature because of this subject and they need be helped to see the finer details of it so as to see that is not true. Certainly what we want to believe is not more important than the stumbling of such people? So why not use two different words, one that describes God's use of "spoilage" as in "breaking down" for an intrinsic good purpose and distinguishes it from those using the same for an intrinsically bad purpose?

You are also OK to believe what you believe now, but I respectfully disagree with your theory.
Salvation is main reason for the bible, our understanding takes a second seat to that.
Let iron sharpen iron when discerning the texts, but let us be know by our love for one another.

I see human desire to want to place blame for situations i.e. blaming God, or the devil, their spouse, themselves and so on.
Understand it is always God who is in control. These situations help mold us in Christ towards His holy image.
 

Vengle

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I see two kingdoms, the kingdom of God and Satan's kingdom.

Every created being falls into one or the other. It is God alone who is sovereign over both.

Shalom

that's right.

After that angel rebelled making himself Satan and the devil he did make to himself a kingdom of this world.

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

But God is the true ruler in the kingdom of mankind as He made king Nebuchadnezzar to know in the book of Daniel.

Satan's kingdom is like a political coup which Yahweh in no way sweats. Yahweh has been perfectly comfortable to let the devil have latitude so that we all can make a clear choice as to which side we are on.
 

justaname

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Now the Ezekiel 31 version of God's usage of historical kings as 'types' for Satan himself. This will reveal Satan's exalted status in God's Garden prior and during his rebellion in wanting to be The GOD. Ezek 31:1-18 1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 "Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; 'Whom art thou like in thy greatness? God tells Ezekiel to speak this to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude. That "Whom art thou like..." is a question of comparison. So already, God is giving us notice that He's doing a comparison here and is going to be pointing to another entity in this. Ezek.31:3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. What? Why does God bring up this "Assyrian" here in comparison to Pharaoh? This is not the time to forget about God's comparisons between the historical king of Assyria and Satan in Scripture like Isaiah 14 and the end of Isaiah 30 about Tophet. God begins this with a high cedar analogy. This metaphor is used to represent kings as rulers (see Dan.4; Ezek.17). The Assyrian was like a high cedar in Lebanon, with beautiful branches and cast a great shadow with its shroud of limbs and leaves, of a high stature, and its top among thick boughs. The idea is of one being exalted by God. Ezek.31:4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. The waters that fed the high cedar made him great. Waters from the deep set him high, and the waters as rivers flowed around to all the plants around him, and then little streams went to all the trees in the field. The description is with God's River feeding the high cedar in the center of His Garden, with all sorts of goodly plants at the base around the high cedar, and those waters flowing to the rest of the trees in the Garden. Might think that explanation so far is a jump, but not if the whole chapter is studied thoroughly and gone over again. Ezek.31:5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. The high cedar in the midst was exalted above all other trees in the field, because of the multitude of those waters from God's River of the waters of Life. Ezek.31:6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. God continues to describe this high cedar tree being exalted, giving shade to all the beasts of the field, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. At one time Egypt was a great kingdom, but it couldn't be said to be as high as this. Likewise with the historical kings of Assyria, Babylon, etc. Those empires included great nations, but certainly not all of them, otherwise they would not have been conquered by other nations as per history. That's the general idea God is pointing to though, the king of Assyria and Pharaoh of Egypt, but that's not the only one God is pointing to with this. Many miss that per Rev.12:3-4 about the time of Satan's rebellion and drawing a third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him, that a world kingdom is mentioned along with that time. It had ten horns, ten heads, and seven crowns. It had three less crowns than the beast kingdom mentioned in Rev.13:1. We know the Rev.13:1 beast kingdom involves a world kingdom of nations because of Rev.13:2 and Rev.17:15 of what Christ said the 'waters' represent there. So here in Ezek.31 with these "all great nations" in relation to this high cedar analogy, it's double meaning is about Satan when he was originally exalted as a high cedar by God, and trying to steal God's Throne as King. So yes, the idea of 'nations' existed at the time of Satan's original rebellion against God. This Ezek.31 chapter is giving us a hint about it. The idea of a 'king' does not originate from flesh kings. It originates from God's Own Office as KING. Satan was not created to be a king, but a heavenly cherub to guard God's Throne. It hurt God's feelings when His people Israel saw the flesh kings of the nations around them, and wanted their own flesh king, for God was their KING already. This is why the pagan kings of history, like Pharaoh, Assyria, Babylon, etc., always serve as 'types' for Satan himself, for that's the position Satan coveted when he first rebelled. God setup those pagan kings and kingdoms of history to show us what Satan had tried to do, which is also why God has shown them all failing in this world. The only King He has setup to remain forever is His Son Jesus Christ, with David as prince. Ezek.31:7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. As per Ezek.28, God originally created the cherub Satan the full pattern of beauty. He does not have horns on his head and wear red flannel underwear. And God said that's one of the things that corrupted him, his beauty. This "garden of God" reference is not simply about some area called Eden in the Assyrian monuments like Bit-Adini. God is talking about His Heavenly Garden and His River, and how Satan was originally exalted in it. Ezek.31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. 10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; 11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness. Got more of a going back and forth about the historical king of Assyria as a type for Satan. God drove Satan out of His Garden, which is the idea of Satan's fall. Ezek.31:12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him. After Satan's fall, there are many Bible references to these ideas of his barren branches, like briars and thorns, and lack of casting a shadow in comfort. The 'bramble' analogy of Judges 9 is specifically about Satan as a bramble bush, with the other trees asking him to come reign over them. And he asks them if they'll commit to trust in his shadow. A bramble bush doesn't give much shadow. It's an analogy for Satan's lowly status after he rebelled against God and was cast out as an 'abominable branch'. The only way to learn how God uses all these tree and branch type analogies, is to stay in study of all of His Word. Ezek.31:13 Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches: Recall in Matthew 13 with the parable of the sower our Lord Jesus gave. He used the idea of planting seed for God's Word going into the mind. With those whom that seed doesn't take root or is closed off, the fowls eat up the seed, or the thorns take over and choke the seed out. These are all symbols He used from His Word in The Old Testament Books of the prophets like these fowls and beasts upon this fallen one's branches (i.e. Satan). Ezek.31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit. With that God is pronouncing death to the king of Assyria, and to Satan, as with those like the children of men that go down to the grave. We saw that kind of metaphor used upon Satan also back in the Isa.14 example. Ezek.31:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. What event with the king of Assyria was this? This is more about Satan's fall than death of the flesh king of Assyria. These flood waters are about the time of Gen.1:2 when God stayed the waters upon the earth that destroyed "the world that then was", the time when Satan first rebelled against Him. Ezek.31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. 17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. God shook the whole earth back at that time. As per Jer.4, the mountains trembled, and the hills moved lightly, and all the cities were broken down at the presence of The LORD. God is speaking of more than just a simple grave there. He's speaking of the time of Satan's fall from Heaven, and the fall of his angels that rebelled with him, and the end of that world than then was. Artifacts buried under the oceans of those ancient cities are still being found today, though most consider such artifacts to be from the time of Noah's flood. Ezek.31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD. (KJV) Now God reverts back to His speaking this about Pharoah. But He is not just speaking of flesh kings like Pharaoh and the king of Assyria, but about Satan himself.
The text God's Garden can be interpreted as the author proclaiming God's authority over the garden, stressing the situation as much as to name it God's Garden. It's origin can be read completely terrestrial to this world from His seven day creation plainly explained by God's word.
 

veteran

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It is pretty obvious that Satan is not a man, right Veteran?

But not so obvious that some men are Satan?

Or, maybe that too is obvious. :rolleyes:

Satan = Resistor

devil = slanderer

It depends on how you interpret the idea of 'man', its origin per God's Word.

Satan is not a man in the earthly sense, but he is in the heavenly image sense, for the image of Man is God's Own Image which He created the angels with, and Adam with (Gen.1). The origin of that image is from Heaven, not from the earth. This is why angels that appeared on earth per God's Word always had that image of man also. This is also why NT Scripture includes flesh women that have believed on Christ within the "sons of God" spiritual meaning. It's also why Christ Jesus said those in the resurrection don't marry nor take in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

that's right.

After that angel rebelled making himself Satan and the devil he did make to himself a kingdom of this world.

John 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

But God is the true ruler in the kingdom of mankind as He made king Nebuchadnezzar to know in the book of Daniel.

Satan's kingdom is like a political coup which Yahweh in no way sweats. Yahweh has been perfectly comfortable to let the devil have latitude so that we all can make a clear choice as to which side we are on.

That's actually what this PRESENT world is about.

But it in no way points to God as the one who rebelled by blaming Him for the cause of sin.

The text God's Garden can be interpreted as the author proclaiming God's authority over the garden, stressing the situation as much as to name it God's Garden. It's origin can be read completely terrestrial to this world from His seven day creation plainly explained by God's word.

Ideas from Phariseeic Judaism is ever trying to limit God's creation to just this flesh world, and man's flesh. Yet His Word says both of those are going to end.

God's Garden is His Abode. Wherever He is, that's where His Garden is. And it ain't upon this earth today. But it was once in the time of old. Per Gen.3 when He setup flaming cherubim to guard the way to the tree of life, that's when He removed His Garden from this earth.

His Heavenly Jerusalem is with Him also in that Heavenly Abode, still expecting when It will come down to this earth out of Heaven, as per Christ's Revelation.

So much for trying to apply God's things to a 'terrestrial' thinking.
 

justaname

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Per Veteran
"And it ain't upon this earth today. But it was once in the time of old."

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit. Where can I flee from your presence?
Jeremiah 23:24 "Can anyone hide in secret places that I can not see him?" declares the LORD "Do I not fill the heavens and earth?" declares the Lord
Just for clarification Jeremiah and Psalms was after Genesis 3.
I will stick to what the LORD tells me about Himself. He is here now. The physical flesh of Jesus Christ is not here, but the LORD is/was/and always will be here.

I think the issue here is some try to use doctrine to support the text. Clearly it is the text that supports true doctrine.
 

veteran

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Funny how some can't get away from trying to use even Scripture that covers not just earthly things, but also Heavenly things, as if it's only about material things on the earth. No wonder the Pharisee Jews couldn't understand Jesus when He compared Himself to The Bread that we all must eat in order to be saved! (John 6). Even His disciples were a bit taken back by it because of their having been used to following the religious traditions of the Jews.

For those interested, do a Bible study on God's Garden per Gen.2, with God's River flowing out of His Garden to feed four other rivers upon the earth. Two of those earthly rivers mentioned there still exist on the earth today. Yet God's Garden of Eden today is clearly nowhere to be found on this earth. And if you hear someone say it is on earth today, and even equate with the Eden of the pagans, then you know that kind of idea is from them.


P.S.: In the Greek Old Testament called the Septuagint, the word for God's Eden is rendered from the Greek word for 'Paradise'.
 

justaname

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ezekiel 31:11
I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.


When is Satan delivered into the hand of the heathen? I thought it was Michael that warred with Satan.
Or are you saying that God was talking about one and then the other without Himself specifying it? If that is the case how can we ever know who God is talking about if He changes His subject in mid sentence without explaining that? This seems confusing to me, but I thought God was not the author of confusion.

Reading into the text what is not there can be dangerous.
 

aspen

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We experience the affects of evil everyday - just like we feel the affects of cold. Just because both are an absence of real forces does mean we are not affected by them. Actually, when you think about it, Hell is the absence of God's presence.
 

Vengle

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:lol: The shear length of some posts make me realize that it might be good if the owner of this sight set a word limit to each post and a required wait for others to post in response before we are allowed to post again.

Too bad we cannot discipline ourselves to do that.

But then we would have to learn to speak on one small point at a time rather that barraging each other with ten thousand points at once. :lol:

You know, if we are really confident that what we have to say is the truth then we should have no problem doing that.

The owner could allow a particular place where those that feel they need to tell all at once can post away from being debated that their complete view exist just as a reference.

Lengthy posts in the debate section serve no good purpose other than to frustrate.