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Did God Create Evil?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by FHII, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I also apologize to you.

    I know I am course at times and as you said I too misunderstand what others have said.

    This imperfection business is a rascal. :lol:
     
  2. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    By the way... I seem to remember Veteran accusing someone of "accusing God of creating evil". That ain't me. I not only testify to the truth that God created it, but that he bragged about it! He said, No one else does this, it's only me! He was bragging in Isa 35 about how greate he was... And I'm not the one who's arguing against him.
     
  3. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    God is good because light conquers darkness. God is good because it is the wicked He hates. God is good because it is the meek who inherit the earth. God is good because there is a plan for this eternal damnation. Separate from God? Never.
    Tell me is your love for this world or God? God, like evil, is much more than just a concept.

    Do you think He should have created a bunch of robots simply subject to His will?
    The funny thing is the oxymoron freewill. Let's explore that.
    We know God condemns sin. The penalty of sin is death (the second death) It seems to me this will isn't quite so free for it's cost is your eternal life. :blink:
    But wait there is a plan. By who? God of course. :) What is the plan? Well, ...according to the bible.
    Wait for it..... :ph34r:



    Believe in Jesus Christ, the risen Son of God. The one who paid the price for our sin. Proclaim with your mouth, believe in your heart. Put faith in God, and He will do the rest for you. Wait theres more.

    That what is planted will grow and change you. How?????

    God softens your heart. He makes you closer to the image of Him. You are the attention of His love, the one who created it all.
    It is written"God is love." It is love that conquers evil. Do you not see His direction? God created the good and the evil, the righteous and the unrighteous. God is righteous. Look at the cross!!!!!! Jesus Christ the risen King. The King of kings, Lord of lords. His splendor is greater the Solomon's.

    Separation from God is the second death, eternal torment, gnashing of teeth, condemnation with Satan and his.
    Revelation 14:9-11
    God is good. Great and awesome is our God. Mighty and powerful is our God. His judgements are proper and just. His yoke is light, and His people are given rest.
     
  4. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Precisely, that is what Isaiah says:

    Isaiah 48:3 "I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.'

    Isaiah 48:7 "They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them."

    Isaiah 48:11 "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another."

    Isaiah 48:13 "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."

    Isaiah 48:15 "I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous."

    Isaiah 46:4 "And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you."

    Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:'

    Isaiah 46:11 "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

    Daniel 4:17 "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."



    So what you see above tells us very plainly how it is that God tells the end from the beginning saying quite clearly that it is because when he says it he also does it. He makes it happen.

    Yet it is a key part of the Omniscience doctrine which says he merely knows it all ahead rather than having a hand in making it happen.

    So what about that Omniscience doctrine? Is it really true?

    Guess what? There is far more scripture that says it is not true than the few verses which have been misunderstood to support it as being true.

    I will begin posting them. Let's deal with that Omniscience doctrine head on and be willing to accept what is revealed.
     
  5. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I think you interpreted my post to mean that I am not a Christian. To be clear, I am a Christian - I believe in the Trinity with my entire soul - mind, heart, and will. The God I worship is Good, Love, Righteous, and Sovereign. His character does not allow Him to create / commit / or use evil or sin even if it is to bring about good ends. If His character did allow Him to have anything to do with evil, He would be evil.

    Light does not conquer the darkness - there is no fight - darkness is no comparison to light - it is a lack of light! Why would God misuse creation (sin) to bring about good? The ends justifying the means is always corrupting, always evil.

    If God were evil, it would be unethical to worship Him.

    It is not possible for God to make His own rules - doing evil and calling it good simply because he did it. He is not the cosmic Father that says "It is not wrong because I am your father!"

    Free will is the ability to make a choice. That's it! Prisoners have freewill. We have always had the ability to make a choice - in the Garden and outside the Garden. Free will is NOT the ability to make a choice between GOOD and EVIL. Free will is NOT making a choice without consequences. Free will is NOT unlimited choices. It is simply the ability to make choices. We were created to exercise free will between good choice. The result of the Fall is not what the serpent told Eve - that we can know choose between Good choices and Evil choices - the reality is before justification, we can only choose between less evil choices.

    So, once again, how do you know God is Good? I know God is Good because He is ethical and is integrity.
     
  6. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Continuing from my post #104

    Genesis 3:9 “And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    Genesis 6:5-6 “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”

    Genesis 11:5-6 “And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.”

    Notice that Abraham did not view God as being omniscient: Genesis 18:24 “Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?” (See also, Genesis 18:28, 30, 32)
    Obviously Abraham did not believe God to be omniscient. But maybe Abraham was wrong? How did God answer?
    Genesis 18:26 “And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
    Genesis 18:28b “… And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.”
    Genesis 18:30b “And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.”

    Genesis 21:17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.”

    Genesis 22:11-12 “And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.”

    And the evidence keeps on mounting higher than the mountains the further into the scriptures we go.
    Do we ignore this? And just pass it off with unsupported suppositions? Or do we accept it as it is stated?

    There is a ton more evidence in the scriptures showing the omniscience doctrine is untrue. We have scarcely touched it all yet.

    And don't forget how God is able to tell the end from the beginning: Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:'
     
  7. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Fact. Evil exists.
    Fact. We were all created sinners thereby we are all evil.
    Fact. God does use evil for His purposes. Look at what He did to Egypt. Do you think Pharaoh would call the plagues good? How about the death of his first born, was that good for Pharaoh? Look at what God did to the Edomites, the Amorites, the Canaaite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite....and the list goes on.

    your post Aspen
    "If His character did allow Him to have anything to do with evil, He would be evil."

    You are judging God here. God is not evil. He can not and will not ever be evil, even though He has authority over evil. God is the only good in this crazy mixed up world. What you are looking at is the seen Aspen. That which is. There is still that which is unseen.
    How do I know? This is my testament of truth I proclaim to my very root, thank God, for it is He who put it there. God is love, thereby Christ is love, and what is asked but to love in Christ.
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Now that is well explained.

    That post I agree with.

    God does have absolute authority over evil but he never uses it outside of his perfect justice.

    Even in Egypt the people could have raised their voice against what was taking place with God's people but they did not. Not even a Pharaoh could stand without a people to support him.

    Therefore it was justice that God did what he did at Pharaoh's refusal to "Let my people go."

    We would be just as much judging God to claim it was not justice for him to do what he did.
     
  9. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    How can God use evil and not be corrupt? It is not possible.

    I guess we will have to disagree justaname.

    The Bible seems to trump God's character in your theology. For me, God's character trumps everything.
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    The problem is that the word should not always be translated as "evil" as i said once before. Because its focus is essentially different when it applies to God's use of ra.

    The simplest refutation I can think of is this:

    God uses his version of ra to punish evil.

    Are we saying that he creates things just to punish things?

    that would be ridiculous.
     
  11. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Genesis 6:5-6 “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”

    The first have of this verse betters my argument as it shows God knows all things. The fact God grieves proves God is love, the repentance is a foreshadowing of what man needs to do.

    Genesis 3:9 “And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
    At the same time as reading Adam's heart and mind. From another post you have used in your argument. See above^
    I would say God is beginning a conversation here. Socially a good servant God takes a submissive role beginning the conversation easy. A similar thing to Cain as God already heard the crying of the ground when He said "What have you done?" Genesis 4:10

    I will respond on others later.

    Amen
     
  12. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Your logic fails for he would have no need to grieve what he knew even before he created it would be. Also, how would it be possible for him to repent something he knew would be the case when he decided to create it in the first place (unless you think he is imperfect and decided he had made a mistake?) Ridiculous !!!

    God did not see himself as making a mistake. He saw the people made the mistake, so let them own it.

    This same principle applies: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."


    That would make no sense. And you obviously want to ignore how he plainly told you he tells the end from the beginning.

    Just as you obviously want to ignore that it is obvious Abraham did not believe he is omniscient.

    You go ahead and hold onto to beliefs the name of which is not even in the scriptures and I will believe like Abraham. :lol:
     
  13. Shirley

    Shirley New Member

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    Gods evil is Justice! God is just! Think about it Aspen. Should evil people be allowed to live? If someone murdered your beloved and was unrepentant would you say they should die?
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Well, it does put a damper on loving your enemies......

    I do not believe anyone should die, but if someone was attacking me or my family and I was able to stop it, I would. I think it is the lesser evil. I

    If it is evil from our perspective and Justice from His, why not call it justice, rather than evil?
     
  15. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    You use your worldly logic to explain away God's obvious text in the Bible, His word. proven by 10 verses still waiting.
    Why would you use logic to understand God, and not the bible? God is Spirit. He can not be contained by your logic, but by the texts He gives us His nature is revealed. The texts are the inspired word of God.
    Worldly is exactly how Abraham approached God. A righteous man indeed, but still attempting to rationalize God. Think back to the story. How many righteous were found in the city. The correct answer is none because Lot was outside the city.
    Again have you never heard? Behold, His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways ours. At least maybe Abraham in his day could say nope. You on the other hand, can not.

    God sets the example for us to attain. It is proven in the life of Jesus. The epistles move us to this truth, through the work of the HS.
    "And you obviously want to ignore how he plainly told you he tells the end from the beginning."

    Are you speaking to me or yourself here? If God knows exactly what will happen from the end to the beginning, thereby all knowing, what doesn't He know? Hint: He actually knows everything, and scripture proves it.

    God according to you does not know what is going on and He didn't know what He was creating when He created Satan.

    Notice that Abraham did not view God as being omniscient: Genesis 18:24 “Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?” (See also,Genesis 18:28, 30, 32)
    Obviously Abraham did not believe God to be omniscient. But maybe Abraham was wrong? How did God answer?
    Genesis 18:26 “And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
    Genesis 18:28b “… AGend he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.”
    Genesis 18:30b “And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.”


    How many righteous were there? Do you think God knew that. Why else was the city getting destroyed? Proving the point God uses evil, the purpose of the thread.
     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    :) You are OK to believe as you need to for now. Do not let the fact that I now see it different deter you. I had every right to believe as I did when I used to believe what you say there. And so do you.

    I only post it in case anyone is ready to move further into a fuller understanding. As I said, the things I stated are only the scarce touching of the mountain high body of evidence which exists in the scriptures. And now that anyone is aware that they can unafraid look to see it they can do so on their own and are no longer trapped lest they want to be. (Revelation 21:8; 1 John 4:18)

    As to the last thing you said, "Proving the point God uses evil, the purpose of the thread."

    I agree within qualification that God uses it within the righteous cause of justice which he himself is the standard setter for.

    So I understand and agree also with aspen's point. I see no real conflict. What I see is more a striving of humans, one to be right over another. But the basic thing being spoken of by both of you is identical.

    Here is how simple it is: If God takes a man's own evil and turns it back upon him so that he reaps what he sows and experiences the fruit of his own ways, what is that?

    Clearly it is God using evil for a just cause. And it proves as you said previously that God has complete authority over everything, even over evil.

    Aspen's concern is as mine that there are people out there who see God as of a bad nature because of this subject and they need be helped to see the finer details of it so as to see that is not true. Certainly what we want to believe is not more important than the stumbling of such people?

    So why not use two different words, one that describes God's use of "spoilage" as in "breaking down" for an intrinsic good purpose and distinguishes it from those using the same for an intrinsically bad purpose?
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Your post has so many added html bits it's impossible to properly address. I'm not personally accusing you or anyone else here of literally worshiping the devil, but I am accusing the followers of the devil for who they follow. It's they who argue the very points you've latched onto the most strongly. Many of my Christian brethren are influenced by their trickery to blame God for being responsible for the evil that is in this world. Satan's rebellion against God is the main reason evil in this world began, and God points that out in so many ways in His Word it's impossible for those who heed His Word to miss. The Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, etc., Scriptures are specific places in His Word where He declares this.
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Per Genesis 1:4 where God divided the light from darkness, that is most often only considered in an earthly scientific aspect, when it's pointing to a much deeper idea, the actual creation in the Heavenly dimension of a place of separation between His Abode and Satan's. The actual creating of lights in the firmament (sky) do not occur until later in those events, at Gen.1:14. So both, the Heavenly dimension, and the earthly dimension (firmament lights) have to be considered in that.

    1. Gen.1:1 - God's original perfect creation. No death, no evil, no rebellion, Satan perfect in his ways serving God at His Throne.
    2. Between Gen.1:1 and 1:2 - Satan rebels, God brings a flood upon the earth to end Satan's rebellion.
    3. Gen.1:2 - state of the earth overspread with waters after God's destruction of Peter's "the world that then was." (2 Pet.3).
    4. Gen.1:2 - forward; God's dividing of His Light from Satan's darkness in the Heavenly; God's establishing of this present world.
     
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    But the mistake you make is by trying to separate that Isa.45:7 verse away from the rest of His Word, and treat it as an absolute for all time. If the KJV translators had rendered the Hebrew another way instead of using the word 'evil', some would still use it to wrongly assign creation of evil to God Himself.

    Every destruction and evil past Gen.1:1 was because of Satan's original rebellion against God. Anyone who doesn't yet know this will... learn about it during Christ's Millennium reign, if not sooner.
     
  20. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Amen. :)

    It sure makes appreciate what David asked, Psalms 8:4 "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"
     
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