Did Jesus claim to be God?

[CharismaticLady]

Look im not saying your wrong or criticizing the doctrine im just saying that the biblical evidence for it isn't very strong
Starting with the fact the term trinity isn't there. The start of John there could very well be evidence that the Word is referring to Jesus
But it might not be as well. We see the term "the Word" get used a lot to describe the Gospel as well

The lengths one must go to validate the Trinity with scripture requires some speculation.
It reminds me of the Catholic arguments for some of their doctrines that have weak biblical foundations

The word, "Trinity" is not there, that is just what they call the Godhead. Do you just object to the word, or the concept?

 

[Cristo Rei]

The word, "Trinity" is not there, that is just what they call the Godhead. Do you just object to the word, or the concept?

I don't object i just find it difficult to comprehend even the RCC says its a mystery. Can anyone say that they truly know?
We often see Jesus referring to God as a separate entity as well. Im reminded of him praying to God just before the soldiers arrest him. Even on the cross, at is death he asked why God had abandon him.

So where there is evidence for the Trinity we also see evidence against it. Otherwise how do we explain Jesus referring to God as a separate entity?

But like I said even the RCC can't fully explain the Trinity so im ok with it...
There something else but that bothers me and im kind of embarrassed to admit it cos its a fundamental which everyone seems to understand but me.

I'll release a thread on it maybe, i feel stupid but not understanding this and when i discuss it on another forum it didn't go well. It went badly so id have to be very careful with how I present my incredulity on this topic. I mite just wait a bit, im still a newbie here

 

[Helen]

Can anyone say that they truly know?
We often see Jesus referring to God as a separate entity as well. Im reminded of him praying to God just before the soldiers arrest him. Even on the cross, at is death he asked why God had abandon him.

He was only here for 33 years. He had 'laid aside' His heavenly glory.
So that is no argument.

Plus , isn't our walk "by faith"? We believe by-faith, we live by faith,
..you are trying to work out naturally that which is spiritual.
That is like sitting down and trying to work out with our tiny brain where God came form or what did He do before He created the world.
It will drive you mad.

Have you ever just sat with God and sked Him to show YOU personally what He wants you to believe by faith.
That is Peace.

Blessings Helen

 

[CharismaticLady]

There something else but that bothers me and im kind of embarrassed to admit it cos its a fundamental which everyone seems to understand but me.

I'll release a thread on it maybe, i feel stupid but not understanding this and when i discuss it on another forum it didn't go well. It went badly so id have to be very careful with how I present my incredulity on this topic. I mite just wait a bit, im still a newbie here

Click on my name and start a conversation with only me on it. I'll also tell you how I visualize the Trinity to be three, but one.

 

[theophilus]

Look im not saying your wrong or criticizing the doctrine im just saying that the biblical evidence for it isn't very strong
Starting with the fact the term trinity isn't there. The start of John there could very well be evidence that the Word is referring to Jesus
But it might not be as well. We see the term "the Word" get used a lot to describe the Gospel as well

The lengths one must go to validate the Trinity with scripture requires some speculation.
It reminds me of the Catholic arguments for some of their doctrines that have weak biblical foundations

This post shows the lengths some will go to to reject the Trinity.

 

[DNB]

None of those verses describe the Trinity. It appears that Protestants aren't sola scripture after all

Not to mention that the Comma Johanneum is not even an authentic text (1 John 5:7). Most reputable textual critics will agree with this (even trinitarians).

 

[DNB]

So true, verses like these and there are many more, do nothing to support their Trinity doctrine being in scripture and from YHWH.

Then the next typical response or rebuttal usually flies back at you with more supposedly self-explanatory words of proof, or even with a new barrage of many more verses, deliberately produced to overwhelm you. This self-imposed avalanche and confusion also serves to deflect your attention and avoid ever returning to the original verses first posed, on the off chance they can be debated and even defeated.

You will be hard-pressed and stunned if you can get a decent commentary with context and original meanings of words of scripture from any Trinitarian.

Their display of many parroted verses, some of their words usually carefully crafted in bold, underlined, some with extra large fonts and even in color, red color, are to blind you into submission hoping you will eventually fall in line and come to their senses.

Hypnotic, and incessant scripture-dumps, supplemented with a type of group or bandwagon psychological effect is ineffective on those interested in truly understanding scripture and its doctrines.

APAK

Yes, that's right @Cristo Rei . And don't lose sight of what a real Biblical revelation demands. Consider how the doctrines of Faith over Works, Gentiles allowance into the Kingdom, and the suffering Messiah were imparted to us. We have prophetical attestation confirmed by an inspired writer. We have clearly explicit statements, word for word, describing the principle that they are professing - all the key words are found in abundance, in Scripture. We find an explanation of the fundamental reason why God both, hid, implemented and revealed these things in the manner that he did. We have verse after verse, paragraph after consecutive paragraph, even entire chapters dedicated to imparting these novel principles.

And yet, the most esoteric, confusing and implausible doctrine of them all, is the most obscure. Let the trinitarians exclaim 'Praise be to God' (sarcasm)!

 

[DNB]

Look im not saying your wrong or criticizing the doctrine im just saying that the biblical evidence for it isn't very strong
Starting with the fact the term trinity isn't there. The start of John there could very well be evidence that the Word is referring to Jesus
But it might not be as well. We see the term "the Word" get used a lot to describe the Gospel as well

The lengths one must go to validate the Trinity with scripture requires some speculation.
It reminds me of the Catholic arguments for some of their doctrines that have weak biblical foundations

John 1 is a literary device called Antanaclasis
Antanaclasis is a rhetorical device in which a phrase or word is repeatedly used, though the meaning of the word changes in each case.
It is the repetition of a similar word in a sentence with different meanings, or a word is repeated in two or more different senses.

Many of Shakespeare’s literary pieces contain examples of antanaclasis. Like in these lines, “Put out the light, then put out the light…” (Othello).
The first meaning is that Othello would extinguish the candle, and in the second reference its meaning is that he would end Desdemona’s life.

 

[APAK]

Yes, that's right @Cristo Rei . And don't lose sight of what a real Biblical revelation demands. Consider how the doctrines of Faith over Works, Gentiles allowance into the Kingdom, and the suffering Messiah were to us. We have prophetical attestation confirmed by an inspired writer. We have clearly explicit statements, word for word, describing the principle that they are professing - all the key words are found in abundance, in Scripture. We found an explanation of the fundamental reason why God both, hid, implemented and revealed these things in the manner that he did. We have verse after verse, paragraph after consecutive paragraph, even chapters dedicated to imparting these novel principles.

And yet, the most esoteric, confusing and implausible doctrine of them all, is the most obscure. Let the trinitarians exclaim 'Praise be to God' (sarcasm)!

Yes indeed, the 'natural' flow of scripture reveals the knowledge and wisdom of the glorious plan of YHWH through his Yahshua his Son. One should never force scripture to mean what we want without first implementing serious quality control measures. This is never done alone. We must be in prayer to seek guidance that our thoughts are what the Lord desires us to know about the subject under study.

As pieces of a jigsaw puzzle must fit perfectly to complete successfully, so too with scripture. The words and verses must fit together smoothly and into groups of common context, theme and doctrine, without using our own shortcomings of guessing and even adding our own 'glue' that binds pieces together unnaturally and forcefully.

APAK

 

[DNB]

This post shows the lengths some will go to to reject the Trinity.

Why would you say that theophilus? There is not a trinitarian in the world that hasn't asked the exact same questions that @Cristo Rei did. Not a single person can accuse him of being difficult, ...if they were sincere. You're showing your bias and incompetence on the matter, by accusing someone of denial because they asked the most requisite and pertinent questions. For, I would accuse him of credulity if he didn't pose those axiomatic questions.
You are the only one going to great lengths to justify the unjustifiable, and stubbornly and blindly adhering to the unfathomable and incomprehensible.

 

[tigger 2]

Let's not forget that 1 John 5:7 in the KJV (and those few still using the same out-dated text) is clearly spurious. Look it up. That's why most Bibles today omit it.

 

[Taken]

Did Jesus claim to be God?
OP ^

Isa 41:
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 48:
[12] Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

John 8:
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 10:
[30] I and my Father are one.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[JunChosen]

Addressed to the OP only,

Matthew 27:63:
Saying, Sir we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

John 2:19:
...destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Only God has the power to raise the dead.

To God Be The Glory

 

[FollowHim]

An interesting. When i read the title i stopped and thought about it and I couldn't remember Jesus ever saying it directly
After that, some of the verses which u quoted came to mind. U made some very good points

Then u know what came to mind, the Trinity. Im fairly sure that the bible doesn't use that term of explain the Trinity as we know it
And so for Protestants who are sola scripture how do they explain this doctrine that doesn't appear in the Bible

Jesus could not say at the beginning of His ministry "I am God" because it is easy to claim in words, but not be discovered as a friend, as relatable, as a sacrifice for sin.

The whole ministry was to show the apostles the walk, to disciple them, to teach them and to anoint them in the Holy Spirit, so they would be prepared to die proclaiming the name of Jesus and being a light in the world.

It was their walk that would prove Gods people can be righteous, loving and good. Amen

 

[Taken]

None of those verses describe the Trinity. It appears that Protestants aren't sola scripture after all

Disagree:

Matt 28:
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

TRI- is a prefix meaning THREE:
(Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

UNI- means ONE

TY- is a suffix which ties the Condition Together of the THREE together as ONE...
"Something"... Scriptural speaking...
One God.

Revelations used ONE "Title":
Lord (Jesus) God (Heavenly Father) Almighty (Power).

Rev 4:
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Jesus didn't come to DECLARE. Himself God.
Jesus came to SHOW Himself God.
It is BY Gods Gift of FAITH, a man can Believe it.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[FollowHim]

Jesus didn't come to DECLARE. Himself God.
Jesus came to SHOW Himself God.
It is BY Gods Gift of FAITH, a man can Believe it.

Glory to God,
Taken

Jesus did not need to declare who He was, He was a fisher of men, to bring them into the Kingdom, those who were good soil, wishing to listen and learn and let His word take root and grow.

 

[DPMartin]

the king's word is king in his kingdom, God's Word is God in His creation, or basically God to anything not God. also, the three are One as in One not without the others. Jesus went on more than once about He in the Father and the Father in Him. or things to the effect that what He says is what the Father says.

 

[101G]

Jesus said it many times, but many have eyes that cannot see, nor ears to hear. well see and hear. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

now if God is with us why is it he have to say he is "God" when he has already been told us that he is God? once again, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." YES, that Son that Child is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. yes that Son is Father. now it's written in black and white, and yet the question, "did he say it", he just did. but just like God said by his apostle,
Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," ... BINGO.
Romans 1:23 "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
Romans 1:24 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:"
Romans 1:25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
Romans 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:"

see it's that rebellious spirit, yes, the spirit of your REAL father the devil. for many want believe God, but put your spin on it. even the scriptures, which is God written word, many still want believe "GOD" himself. listen again, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

why do he have to say ... hey, "I'm God", when he has already told you?.

PICJAG.

 

[Cristo Rei]

This post shows the lengths some will go to to reject the Trinity.

Please show me where I rejected the Trinity!!!