Did Jesus claim to be God?

[JohnD]

Yet, GOD the FATHER was the 'overseer', for 'by Jesus' and 'for Jesus', GOD the FATHER oversee the project being completed. (Genesis 1:26)

The text covers things no one could fully comprehend until the fullness of the events of creating mankind played out (finally with the incarnation of God the Word).

"Let us make man in our image and after our likeness..."

Jesus is the <visible>image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15).

God the Father created the body of Jesus in the incarnation (John 1:14, Hebrews 10:5) some 4,000 years after Jesus (preincarnate) created Adam (Genesis 1:26).

We must remember we are dealing with omniscient minds here. Jesus created Adam in the image and likeness of the body the Father would create in the future. Jesus is the prototype blueprint even though Adam was the first to be manufactured.

 

[JohnD]

The text covers things no one could fully comprehend until the fullness of the events of creating mankind played out (finally with the incarnation of God the Word).

The Bible does this in other matters as well.

Galatians 3:24-25 for example which is the fulfillment of the Law of Moses (Romans 3:31) in a way that no one would have fully comprehended until the cross of Christ.

 

[JohnD]

No, no, no, rather the FATHER is the only true GOD. While the Son is the image of the invisible FATHER, and the creator of all things. The Holy Spirit is the Power of GOD in action, the executer of all things spoken by the Son the Word, to come to life.

Remember, GOD the FATHER is the HEAD of Christ, and Christ is the Head of every man, and man is the head of the woman ? (1Corinthians11:3)

The Greek in John 20:17 follows the same non-kai-noun grammar that John 1:1 does (which the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Christadelphians who the Jehovah's Witnesses got the idea from use to falsely indicate Jesus was only a god rather than Almighty God).

"The only true God: the Father AND Jesus Christ" (John 17:3) is the proof text you quote.

The Holy Spirit is God as well (Acts 5:3-4). And he is a person of the Godhead rather than just some power or force (Acts 13:2) which can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30).

Remember the focus of scripture is Jesus (Matthew 5:39-40, Luke 24:27).

Very little in scripture is about the Father (most is about Jesus or in his preincarnate state as YHVH / the LORD / Jehovah). A few passages in the Old Testament about the Holy Spirit here and there, a few more in the New Testament. The Father has almost no mention in the Old Testament. Yahweh is the preincarnate Jesus (John 8:58, Exodus 3:13-15 / John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). ← which destroys the arguments that Jesus was only a tool of creation in the Father's hand (alone, by myself cannot mean the Father created through the Son or the Word).

Remember also Jesus was speaking directly to the Father in John 17. If he had been speaking to the Holy Spirit he could have just as truthfully said "the only true God and Jesus Christ" to the Holy Spirit. But he was talking to the Father.

 

[JohnD]

You guys need to learn how to read. It tells you right in the verse that these are the things the Messiah will need to govern the new body of Christ after he returns for us. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and space.

For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Note I highlighted in your own quote ALL THINGS.

NOT just some things like you suggest.

 

[APAK]

It seems, from one angle, Jesus is the faithful witness about God, telling us what He has seen, and is, in some sense, equal with God (Jn 1:1, Jn 5:18; Php 2:6), yet, not God.

True, although I would not use John 1:1 as one of your references..imo. Jesus is not directly identified and then only by strong implication a few verses before verse and including John 1:14

 

[GracePeace]

True, although I would not use John 1:1 as one of your references..imo. Jesus is not directly identified and then only by strong implication a few verses before verse and including John 1:14

The "pre-incarnate" Christ, or how ever people want to talk about that--"What God was, the Word was".

 

[Fred J]

"Let us make man in our image and after our likeness..."

Genesis 2:7 - Jesus is LORD God who formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Jesus is the <visible>image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15).

Amen.

God the Father created the body of Jesus in the incarnation (John 1:14, Hebrews 10:5) some 4,000 years after Jesus (preincarnate) created Adam (Genesis 1:26).

When there was no creation at all, whether in Heaven, the heavens (galaxy) or on earth, Jesus was first to be created by GOD the FATHER HIMSELF.

'Who is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of (or over) all creation.' (Colossians 1:15&17)

'GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, ....................................................' (John 3:1)

Then later GOD by and through and for the Son, created all creation, whether in Heaven, the heavens (galaxy), on earth, in the ocean or under the earth. (Colossians 1:16&17)

The Son laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the Heavens (Heaven and galaxy) are the works of His hands. (Hebrews 1:10)

We must remember we are dealing with omniscient minds here. Jesus created Adam in the image and likeness of the body the Father would create in the future. Jesus is the prototype blueprint even though Adam was the first to be manufactured.

i want to reveal to you a mystery hidden in Genesis based on the creation of man. Please pay close attention to the verse, that vegetation plainly speaking, was created on the third day. And, most probably there already consist of Sun and water for them to sustain. Next, the man was created in the image of GOD and Son, on the sixth day.

But, note carefully, when Adam was created, there was no vegetation on earth. Nor, there were water to water the earth for their sustenance. This show, Adam was created to be inside the garden of Eden. With given instruction, to eat from the garden itself, and take care of the garden. Before, He and Eve were sent outside the garden, just a step or so into the world now. And, before an angel was placed to guard the entrance of the garden.

Therefore, the sixth day created man was created outside the garden of Eden, in the world. With given instruction unlike Adam's, to multiply and subdue the earth. Now, when Cain became a vagabond separated from Adam and Eve, he was apparently roaming the earth. And, that's where He met his wife, children multiplied by the sixth day created man and woman.

Remember, he complained to GOD, being out there he could be harmed by every one who finds him, human in other word ? Furthermore, Cain built a city, a kingdom, and named it after his son, meaning there were already many people there. (Genesis 4:7)

Hence, progressively later in Genesis 5:4, we are discovering, after fathering Seth at 800 years old, only then Adam went on to have sons and daughters.

Interesting, hope you got this.........

 

[Fred J]

The Greek in John 20:17 follows the same non-kai-noun grammar that John 1:1 does (which the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Christadelphians who the Jehovah's Witnesses got the idea from use to falsely indicate Jesus was only a god rather than Almighty God).

Partly true, partly not true, He is not just a God, but the God. Mighty God who laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the Heavens are the works of His hands. The Everlasting Father, who suffered and won for us everlasting life on His own. Wonderful, Counselor, the Great High Priest, the mediator and intercessor between GOD and man.

He holds the express visible image of the invisible ALMIGHTY GOD who dwells in Heaven and in secret, in person. And, He upholds all things by GOD's Word, in power.

The Holy Spirit is God as well (Acts 5:3-4). And he is a person of the Godhead rather than just some power or force (Acts 13:2) which can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30).

Spot on, and Jesus refer to the Spirit as, 'He', the Comforter, and One who have emotional feelings

Very little in scripture is about the Father (most is about Jesus or in his preincarnate state as YHVH / the LORD / Jehovah). A few passages in the Old Testament about the Holy Spirit here and there, a few more in the New Testament. The Father has almost no mention in the Old Testament. Yahweh is the preincarnate Jesus (John 8:58, Exodus 3:13-15 / John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). ← which destroys the arguments that Jesus was only a tool of creation in the Father's hand (alone, by myself cannot mean the Father created through the Son or the Word).

About the FATHER, the people heard frightening like thunder and lighting, audible voice spoke from Heaven. In the Old Testament the FATHER either inspired or spoke through the Prophets to the people. But, i believe it was Jesus who spoke to these Prophets, since also He is the image and every word of the FATHER.. Who, apparently spoke, because it did not make these prophets fall to the ground in fear.

Only, in these last days the FATHER spoke to us through the Son HE planned to revealed,

To me i believe the FATHER and the Holy Spirit since work from behind the scene, therefore are hardly mentioned..

 

[Peterlag]

Note I highlighted in your own quote ALL THINGS.

NOT just some things like you suggest.

For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The all things are thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: All things were created by him, and for him that he will need to governor when he returns for the body of Christ. You think all things means everything and I don't know why. We speak the same way even today. A wife comes in the house and says to her husband are there any more cookies? The husband says no our son ate all of them last night. All of them does not mean little Johnny ate all the cookies in the world. Same with Jesus. The all things are listed: thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers were created by him and for him. The words for him probably means some things were not created by him.

 

[JohnD]

When there was no creation at all, whether in Heaven, the heavens (galaxy) or on earth, Jesus was first to be created by GOD the FATHER HIMSELF.

'Who is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of (or over) all creation.' (Colossians 1:15&17)

'GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, ....................................................' (John 3:1)

Then later GOD by and through and for the Son, created all creation, whether in Heaven, the heavens (galaxy), on earth, in the ocean or under the earth. (Colossians 1:16&17)

Actually, Jesus is the firstborn over all creation positionally. Intentionally. Not actually. The Father was not a father until the incarnation (Hebrews 1:5) neither was the Son a son until then. Note the tenses of "I will be..." and "he shall be..." meaning prior to this point in history when the Father created the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:5 and John 1:14) neither was true about either of them.

Jesus is the eternal I AM in his Spirit. He was not created in his Spirit, only in his body.

 

[JohnD]

For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The all things are thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: All things were created by him, and for him that he will need to governor when he returns for the body of Christ. You think all things means everything and I don't know why. We speak the same way even today. A wife comes in the house and says to her husband are there any more cookies? The husband says no our son ate all of them last night. All of them does not mean little Johnny ate all the cookies in the world. Same with Jesus. The all things are listed: thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers were created by him and for him. The words for him probably means some things were not created by him.

No. all things means all... things...

 

[Peterlag]

No. all things means all... things...

So little Johnny ate all the cookies in the world? It tells you what the all things are right in the verse.

 

[Fred J]

Actually, Jesus is the firstborn over all creation positionally. Intentionally. Not actually.

Jesus is the eternal I AM in his Spirit. He was not created in his Spirit, only in his body.

He being in the spirit was indeed created, similar like the angels in spirit were created too. (Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:14)

He is before all things which by Him and for Him, GOD the FATHER created them all, in Heaven and on earth. (Colossians 1:16&17)

Rather, Himself alone was created by the FATHER in the beginning, when there was nothing at all. Therefore, to be held in regards all of creation, He is the 'firstborn'.

Again, to be held in regards raising or raised from the dead, He is also the 'firstborn'.

Even, one were to contradict, He is the 'firstborn' over all creation, yet, He is the 'firstborn' of what ? 'Firstborn' meaning, He is the 'firstborn' of or over something, and 'creation' is clearly mentioned.

The same as, David. the 'firstborn' king of and over all kings of Israel, therefore, in regards all kings of Israel, David is the 'firstborn'.

There's no confusion in regards the scripture, but rather for the lack of knowledge and wisdom to understand is the confusion here

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually, Jesus is the firstborn over all creation positionally. Intentionally. Not actually.

Absolute rubbish. Most translations render that verse “firstborn of all creation” or “the firstborn of every creature”…..those who insert “over” are adding a word that does not fit with the rest of scripture.
If Jesus is “the firstborn of ALL creation”, then he has to have existed before ALL creation.
If he is the “firstborn of every creature”, he himself must be a creature…..a created being. (Rev 3:14)

The Father was not a father until the incarnation (Hebrews 1:5) neither was the Son a son until then.

Good grief! If Jesus was “the firstborn of ALL creation” then he did exist as God’s firstborn long before his earthly mission.
Jehovah was a Father of many “sons” in heaven before even the creation of the material universe, and our earth along with it.
God asked Job……

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
(Job 38:4-7)

Where on earth did you get that idea? Not from scripture apparently.

Note the tenses of "I will be..." and "he shall be..." meaning prior to this point in history when the Father created the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:5 and John 1:14) neither was true about either of them.

Nonsense. Heb 10:5 is talking about the preparation of a sinless human body that God’s son would be able to sacrifice on behalf of all of Adam’s children.
John 1:14 says that ”ho logos” became flesh, not that “ho theos” became flesh. Read it in Greek not the mistranslated English.

Jesus is the eternal I AM in his Spirit. He was not created in his Spirit, only in his body.

Not what the Bible teaches at all….this is what some in Christendom believe, but not the majority….yet they still get it all wrong.

Again, read the Jewish Tanakh to see that God is not the “eternal I AM”, as his name has a much broader meaning than his existence. The Jews already knew that Yahweh existed.

Here is Exodus 3:14-15…from the Complete Jewish Bible….

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔

You can see that God’s name is not I AM…but “I Will Be”.

He was indicating to Moses that he would “be” whatever he needed to “be” in order to fulfill his promise in connection with his people. They were going to produce his Messiah and he would make sure that they did.

“The Lord God of their forefathers” was not Jesus….it was Yahweh….”יְהֹוָ֞ה”…..he was the God and Father of Jesus.

 

[Fred J]

The Father was not a father until the incarnation (Hebrews 1:5) neither was the Son a son until then.

Isaiah prophesied this roughly 700 years before the Word became man. He did not witness, unto us a Son is made, but rather, 'unto us a Son is given' and following verse the title He holds. (Isaiah 9:6)

Even after the incarnation, where in the scripture mentioned HIS 'firstborn', other than, 'HIS only begotten'.

Note the tenses of "I will be..." and "he shall be..." meaning prior to this point in history when the Father created the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:5 and John 1:14) neither was true about either of them.

This is a new declaration from the FATHER, since the Son now have become the 'firstborn from the dead'.

'................................................., when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on High; Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'

 

[JohnD]

So little Johnny ate all the cookies in the world? It tells you what the all things are right in the verse.

Extrabiblical examples of exaggeration does not prove exaggeration in the scriptures.

In fact John 1:3 is specific about this that there is no exaggeration in that Jesus (preincarnate) is the Creator of ALL THINGS created (in the beginning).

John 1:3 (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[JohnD]

He being in the spirit was indeed created, similar like the angels in spirit were created too. (Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:14)

If God the Word is also a creation then God the Word created himself. The text clearly states "by him..."

Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Not sure why you referred to this verse:

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV)
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[JohnD]

Isaiah prophesied this roughly 700 years before the Word became man. He did not witness, unto us a Son is made, but rather, 'unto us a Son is given' and following verse the title He holds. (Isaiah 9:6)

Unto us... a Son is given up for sacrifice (Isaiah 53 / John 3:16).

John 1:14 the only begotten of the Father (the only creation of the Father) is the body (humanity):

Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Micah 5:2 (KJV)
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Not origin in the sense of having a birth or beginning but whose goings forth (already existing) is from everlasting (olam in Hebrew meaning eternity).

 

[JohnD]

This is a new declaration from the FATHER, since the Son now have become the 'firstborn from the dead'.

No this is obviously referring to the incarnation.

 

[Peterlag]

Extrabiblical examples of exaggeration does not prove exaggeration in the scriptures.

In fact John 1:3 is specific about this that there is no exaggeration in that Jesus (preincarnate) is the Creator of ALL THINGS created (in the beginning).

John 1:3 (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Well, you want to believe Jesus is God so you spin it your way. I know Jesus is not God so there's no way he could have done what you say.