Did Jesus claim to be God?

[Waiting on him]

Hello Aunty Jane, I see now! that Jesus has said that GOD is a Spirit, even as I had not seen before with the scriptures.

Love, Walter

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
— Luke 24:39

 

[Wrangler]

Micah 5:2 states that his origins are from eternity past (meaning no beginning). Only in his flesh is there a beginning.

I love how such dichotomies are invented from whole cloth with no Scripture in sight.

 

[JohnD]

Yes you are right.

Why is the indefinite article “a” added?
Because the Koine Greek language has no indefinite articles (“a” or “an”).
They have to be added in English, for us to understand the text.

On whose authority?

Take John 6:70 in the ASV…”Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
“… a devil” is not in the Greek. The translators added it, though, for us to understand that Jesus wasn’t calling Judas “the devil.”

Unfortunately, most translators favor a bias, so they don’t accurately translate John 1:1 as it should be read: that “the Word was a god.”

Most, but not all, though.

 

[JohnD]

I love how such dichotomies are invented from whole cloth with no Scripture in sight.

Presuming you had a grasp of the totality of scripture.
My mistake. You apparently do not.

John 8:58 / Exodus 3:13-15 Jesus claimed to be the eternal I AM.
John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24 corroborates this.

John 1:1-2 distinguishes this eternal I AM as the Word who was with the Father (1 John 1:1-2) in the beginning as well as with the Holy Spirit in the beginning.

Philippians 2:5-11 and John 1:14 and Hebrews 10:5 indicate this eternal I AM stepped into humanity as Yeshua Jesus the BRANCH (Zechariah 6:12-13) builder of God's temple the Church (1 Corinthians 3:16).

So how is Micah 5:2 a dichotomy?

Note also the fatherhood of God the Father and the Sonship of God the Son did not exist until the incarnation:

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Prior to this point, neither was true.

 

[JohnD]

Hmmm. You talk about rabbit holes eh? Equality is not achieved when one attribute is shared!

According to what?
Your opinion?

Are you 100% human?

Body, soul, spirit = man.

Your spirit is 100% spirit is it not?
Your body is 100% human.

 

[JohnD]

There is no "God the Word." You are confusing a thing with authority from a Being, which is synonymous with a person.

Words are an attibute of being, not a seperate Being. This explains how God's word was with God. It's not some mystical supposition. Of course God's word has authority. This does not mean that words are a separate person from the Being who utters the words.

I'm scratching my head because I never heard such nonsense in my life.

You are in a room with two other people. All of the same nature (human).

In the room was you, and you were with humans and you were human.

How does that differ from John 1:1-2?

 

[JohnD]

A distinction without a difference.

My pet cat. My pet is a cat.

My family is human. My family is a human.
That's the difference and the distinction.

 

[JohnD]

Let’s try quoting that with the verse you left out…..

No, let's first resolve the verse you are trying to avoid by diverting attention to another point. Cults like the Watchtower are notorious for this tactic when the scriptures disprove their false doctrines.

Once again:

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

 

[JohnD]

if Jesus was equally God, why could he not come in his own name?

Who says he could not?
The Bible says he did not.
Apparently God also has the ability to make choices.

 

[JohnD]

"If we want everlasting life, we have to “know the only true God” AND “the one he sent, Jesus Christ”. (John 17:3) There is no mention of the holy spirit there..."

May I add to this...

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name “Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus” in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

Because the Holy Spirit is inspiring the narrative (John 16:13 / 2 Peter 1:21).

 

[JohnD]

You yourself witnessed in regards verse 16, the Word and Son, created all things in Heaven and on earth. So, verse 15, refers to before all creation, and based on prior to all these creation, the Word and Son is the 'firstborn'.

The Son in his previous form (God the Word John 1:1-3) who later became the Son (John 1:14) note:

Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The incarnation did not take place until when he entered into the world. Prior to that he was not a Son (Hebrews 1:5b) and the Father was not a Father (Hebrews 1:a). shall be / will be mean prior to that point neither were true.

 

[JohnD]

Yes you are right.

Why is the indefinite article “a” added?
Because the Koine Greek language has no indefinite articles (“a” or “an”).
They have to be added in English, for us to understand the text.
Take John 6:70 in the ASV…”Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
“… a devil” is not in the Greek. The translators added it, though, for us to understand that Jesus wasn’t calling Judas “the devil.”

Unfortunately, most translators favor a bias, so they don’t accurately translate John 1:1 as it should be read: that “the Word was a god.”

Most, but not all, though.

If you mistranslate John 1:1 (disregarding the Greek Grammar noun-kai-noun, then you must do so likewise in John 20:17 which would render Jehovah the Father as a god and a father.

John 20:17 (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

In the Greek "I ascend to the Father my and Father yours to God my and God yours"

The only article (ton) precedes the first "Father" reference.

So are you also willing to undeify the Father?

 

[JohnD]

Jesus is equal with the Father in Spirit. But the Father has authority over all (including over Jesus and the Holy Spirit).

Assumption…the Bible does not say this…the church does.

Sure it does.

Jesus made the claim to be equal with the Father (John 5:17-18)
Philippians 2:6 clearly does.
Acts 1:7 says the Father reserves certain foreknowledge under his own authority.
Knowledge that even Jesus did not have (Matthew 24:36, Mark 13:32).
Even the Holy Spirit must search the mind of the Father (1 Corinthians 2:10).

You really need to read the Bible for what it actually says rather than what you are told it says.

 

[JohnD]

The truth is it creates more questions than it answers…..It’s a dinosaur and people only cling to its many errors because they love them…. comfortable lies often sit better than an uncomfortable truth.
I hope you understand that God will not correct us if we are wrong…..(2 Thess 2:9-12) Delusions are not hallucinations….they are someone’s reality….not real to others though.

Let me guess... New World Translation? Is that your bible?

I can direct you to former Witnesses who discovered the fraud in that translation (by its many revisions once it was discovered earlier version of the NWT disproved Watchtower doctrine). It's man making up the rules, man's authority over the Word of God.

If I am wrong and it's LDS then may I direct you to a Provo, Utah based ministry Mormon Research Ministry (mrm.org).

 

[Wick Stick]

WS please explain these verses clearly that you know what it is saying and in context with other previous verses. There was one significant question and only one question the Jews posed to Yahshua, as others asked of his similar ones, and he finally answered it in verse 58.

Can do.

First, some historical context...

One of the important questions within Judaism is the question of how to reckon "who is a Jew?" This question was a subject of debate in Jesus day and also afterwards.

From Old Testament times, heredity was reckoned in terms of paternity. Abraham begat Isaac, etc. But there's a problem. Determining the biological father of a child is... an uncertain proposition. The Jews intermingled with other nations even from the beginning (Num 25), were conquered repeatedly, went into captivity, etc.

Traditional Judaism eventually "solved" this problem by changing their criteria. From Maimonides onwards, one is a Jew if their mother is Jewish, and the paternity is unimportant. But I digress...

This section of John 8 is Jesus' weighing in on that question - "who is a Jew?" So, how did Jesus answer?

Jesus upholds the reckoning according to paternity.

He also addresses the problem of determining paternity in a world without DNA tests. Jesus criteria for determining paternity is - look at the deeds and actions of the man. If one is a child of Abraham, they will ACT like Abraham. If one is child of the devil, they will ACT like the devil.

Here in John 8, the Pharisees accuse Jesus of being a bastard. Jesus tells them to examine his deeds, because His good deeds and miracles show that He is... not just a true son of Abraham, but... a son of God Himself... THE Son of God. And the Pharisees actions? Those reveal their paternity as well... they are sons of the devil.

What remains now is to show that claiming to be the Son of God is to make oneself equivalent to God, which I hold to be true.

However, this post is already far too long, and my purpose here is not to teach.

 

[Wrangler]

Presuming you had a grasp of the totality of scripture.
My mistake.

When you have no argument, have lost the argument, just make a personal attack.

 

[Wrangler]

According to what?

Logic. A mouse is not equal to a whale just because they have one thing in common.

 

[Wrangler]

In the room was you, and you were with humans and you were human.

How does that differ from John 1:1-2?

Words are not a person. Supposing so is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of.

 

[JohnD]

When you have no argument, have lost the argument, just make a personal attack.

Only responding in kind you your insinuations. Only I outright speak mine.
Prove me wrong.

 

[ElieG12]

No, I'm saying I accept the verses that say Jesus has a God, but, taken together with the fact that Christ is husband to God's people (when God is husband to His people--plus, the verse says "Your Maker is your husband...", and John says "Without [Christ], nothing was made that was made"), the unavoidable outcome that that represents (ie, God has a God) is... odd. You'll probably hear people saying it's because as a human (which He still is) He has a God. That's a potential explanation, but I'm not sure it's entirely satisfactory.

No, it's really not as simple as saying "Jesus is exalted": God relates to His people as their God, as their Father, as their Husband, as their Master. If they are having a different "husband" (remember some of these people--eg, the Patriarchs--were God's people when "God" was their husband, but they will now be Jesus's bride (a father doesn't give His wife to his son as a way of "exalting" him!), so... whose are they?), they are, ipso facto, having a different god!

(That's not Biblically acceptable--it's a lot less Biblically acceptable than saying that, somehow, "God has a God", because there are possible explanations for that, but there are no explanations for it somehow being acceptable for God's people to go commit idolatry.)

This infers Jesus was always the "husband" to God's people. John also says when Isaiah saw God, it was actually just Jesus "explaining" God... yet, it's too late, the text called Jesus's representation of God "God". This reminds me of "That all should honor the Son as they honor the Father". How do men "honor" God?

So, anyway, it's not so straightforward when you're actually honoring all the facts, not just trying to cram your view in.

Anyway, I'm realizing that discussing this with you is basically the same foolish waste of time as discussing Paul's "not under Law" doctrine with "Torah observant" Christians. You're not interested in having a nice conversation, and recognizing facts, like normal people. This single issue is your addiction, and I'm not getting drawn into your miserable Black hole with you. I actually have a life to live before God, no need to waste my time trying to prove my point to people to whom it is not possible to prove my point (bc they found a button they can press to get dopamine, and that's all they're mindlessly interested in). You are not having a conversation, you are pretending to so as to dispense this ideology. You are lost--and I'm not getting drawn in.

Ancient Israel and the Christian congregation have a different relationship with God.

For example: While the Israelites were under the law of Moses, Christians no longer have to comply with the detailed requirements of the law with its legal consequences. Those were a nation that was assigned a physical territory; while the members of the Christian congregation are considered citizens of heaven and pilgrims on earth.

On the earth converted into paradise in the future, millions of dead Israelites in the past and many people from all over the world who lived and died in all ages and who were never part of the true Christian congregation will be resurrected. Those who will live on earth will once again become part of the faithful family of God, the Creator, the Father of Jesus, Jehovah.

The citizens of heaven, selected out of the humans, are the bride/wife of Christ. Jesus and his bride/wife in heaven will be the ones to complete the reconciliation of fallen humanity with the Creator on earth.

1 Cor. 15:28 (...) when all things will have been subjected to him [to Jesus], then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One [to Jehovah] who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Rev. 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

So, not all humanity will be the bride/wife of Jesus, but just some selected. He is not the husband of the family of his Father in general.

John 17:6 I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.