Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.

[Rita]

I think men and women are equally in need as well, but in different ways. We are meant to compliment one another, by that I mean the needs balance out if we are working as a team. The problems often arise when one person considers that their needs are greater and should be more of a priority.

My ex played emotional games, but I didn’t realise until I saw him playing those same games with the whoever he was in a relationship with once the marriage had ended.
Anyhow, this is taking this off topic a bit, so I will let the discussion carry on x

 

[St. SteVen]

I think men and women are equally in need as well, but in different ways. We are meant to compliment one another, by that I mean the needs balance out if we are working as a team. The problems often arise when one person considers that their needs are greater and should be more of a priority.

Agree.

My ex played emotional games, but I didn’t realise until I saw him playing those same games with the whoever he was in a relationship with once the marriage had ended.
Anyhow, this is taking this off topic a bit, so I will let the discussion carry on x

Actually...
I would like members to discuss the subject of divorce and remarriage.
So perhaps this is a good segue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[St. SteVen]

Actually...
I would like members to discuss the subject of divorce and remarriage.
So perhaps this is a good segue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God has granted me the honor to "minister" (befriend/be a friend) to many divorced individuals.
I realized after I had been doing it for a while why it was so effective. (my view)
Just being friends with these individuals (mostly men) and not talk at all about divorce.
If they brought it up, I would listen. I gave no advice unless asked for.

What this did for them was to give them a time when they could have fun.
And with no thoughts about their troubles, they could relax and feel safe and accepted.

Consequently, I have been Best Man at two weddings.
I could have been very adversarial with these guys.
I have been married to one wife for 44+ years.
What if I would have come after them with Bible in hand instead?
Speaking the truth in "love"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Socially, divorce can be such an ugly and shameful thing.
And even worse if you are a Christian.

If we could put the Bible aside for a moment and just get real...
I know of some very godly couples that are divorced and remarried.
We probably all know these folks. Makes me think we don't understand God on this subject.

And what typically happens in the lifespan of a marriage? People grow apart.
The remarriage aspect allows a second chance at life with a mate.
Hopefully a better match this time.

I would like to hear about divorce and remarriage in real life terms.

/

 

[JohnDB]

The King James Version was commissioned by - wait for it - King James I in 1604. Henry VIII died in 1547. The KJV was indeed commissioned for the Church of England. There is some myth that James commissioned it because he wanted a divorce-friendly version, but this is nonsense. He was never divorced and there is nothing divorce-friendly about the KVJ. The events leading to the KJV and the reasons for its commissioning are well-known. Who Wrote the King James Bible? History of the KJV

I was saying that Henry commissioned the Anglican Church...not the KJV. Sorry if I caused confusion.
Henry VIII commissioned the Great Bible by Miles Coverdale. Even though Miles mostly stole the work of Wycliffe and Erasmus. Even the Coverdale Bible was a repeat of stealing those two gentlemen's work.

King James' 1611 KJV was to be chained up in the Town Square so that it would be available for public reading by everyone. (And used to teach how to read to commoners)

The modern KJV (not the NKJV) was a collaborative effort by both Cambridge and Oxford Universities and again was for the Anglican Church. It really never was popular until a massive marketing campaign in the 1920's. Most immigrants from England and even Germany (before the world wars but also after) brought with them the ESV. (So many new Bibles brought into the New Land and to start the recording of the new family tree)
The Great Migrations of Europeans from England and elsewhere brought with themselves the Geneva Bible before that translation was produced and made popular.

 

[JohnDB]

Here's the NT Greek. Who translated it correctly? The Greek word translated as sexual immorality in modern translations is porneia.
Which should be translated as fornication. I'm not KJO, but he got it right on this one.


View attachment 43575

/

I didn't say that the KJV is wrong.

Just that some of the other arts and sciences need to be brought in as well.

Jesus had a VERY defined style and manner of answering the religious elites questions in front of audiences.
Ones that usually set their heads spinning.

But also keep in mind that Jesus was speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic. (Depending upon if he was quoting the Law or not)

So the straight truth answer is not going to appear by squinting at the translation. Although people try to justify themselves....there's the answers I give when asked by people in person. And I don't use quotes from scriptures to answer them. I explain what Jesus meant instead of what He said. Because they need compassion instead of judgment mostly.

In short....
Divorce sucks for EVERYONE involved. And God hates what Divorce does to us because He cares about us. Nothing says "life failure" like a divorce. There's usually no one righteous in a divorce. I'm not saying that people don't have good reasons to divorce. Just that wounded people who have a "life failure" moniker by having been divorced need something different from the usual treatment they receive from churches.

 

[JohnDB]

Actually...
I would like members to discuss the subject of divorce and remarriage.
So perhaps this is a good segue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God has granted me the honor to "minister" (befriend/be a friend) to many divorced individuals.
I realized after I had been doing it for a while why it was so effective. (my view)
Just being friends with these individuals (mostly men) and not talk at all about divorce.
If they brought it up, I would listen. I gave no advice unless asked for.

What this did for them was to give them a time when they could have fun.
And with no thoughts about their troubles, they could relax and feel safe and accepted.

Consequently, I have been Best Man at two weddings.
I could have been very adversarial with these guys.
I have been married to one wife for 44+ years.
What if I would have come after them with Bible in hand instead?
Speaking the truth in "love"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Socially, divorce can be such an ugly and shameful thing.
And even worse if you are a Christian.

If we could put the Bible aside for a moment and just get real...
I know of some very godly couples that are divorced and remarried.
We probably all know these folks. Makes me think we don't understand God on this subject.

And what typically happens in the lifespan of a marriage? People grow apart.
The remarriage aspect allows a second chance at life with a mate.
Hopefully a better match this time.

I would like to hear about divorce and remarriage in real life terms.

/

There were some stats I heard once about remarriage. Like only 36% are considered successful with the second wife and smaller percentages with each successive spouse. (Liz Taylor)

Remarriage is a sticky subject.

When choosing a spouse if you sucked at it the first time what drastic life changing parameters did you change for picking the next one?

If you misbehaved causing a divorce....have you changed not only the behaviors but the attitudes that led to those behaviors? (Thought patterns are extremely difficult to change)

If a person doesn't have substantive answers for these questions....it's likely going to end in another train wreck.

 

[St. SteVen]

In short....
Divorce sucks for EVERYONE involved. And God hates what Divorce does to us because He cares about us. Nothing says "life failure" like a divorce. There's usually no one righteous in a divorce. I'm not saying that people don't have good reasons to divorce. Just that wounded people who have a "life failure" moniker by having been divorced need something different from the usual treatment they receive from churches.

Agree.
Thanks for your reply.

There are victims of divorce. One wants the divorce, and the other can't stop them.
And if there are children...

/

 

[Duck Muscles]

As a divorcee, God knows living the rest of my life in misery is hell on earth.

I'd rather be forgiven by God than outgrow the love she and I once had because we grew apart rather than closer together.

Sometimes divorce is God's way of answering prayer. Mutual respect, one last act of love, for self and each other. Freed to find the right one God intended

 

[St. SteVen]

As a divorcee, God knows living the rest of my life in misery is hell on earth.

I'd rather be forgiven by God than outgrow the love she and I once had because we grew apart rather than closer together.

Sometimes divorce is God's way of answering prayer. Mutual respect, one last act of love, for self and each other. Freed to find the right one God intended

Thanks for your post.
And welcome to the forum.

You have touched on what I am leaning toward. God said "No." in the Bible because he wants to warn us against it.
But when it inevitably happens THEN what does he want? I don't think he throws people away as society does.

/

 

[Duck Muscles]

Thanks for your post.
And welcome to the forum.

You have touched on what I am leaning toward. God said "No." in the Bible because he wants to warn us against it.
But when it inevitably happens THEN what does he want? I don't think he throws people away as society does.

/

You are welcome.
And thank you.

 

[O'Darby]

When I married my first wife, we were both virgins (I know - but, hey, I was 6 and she was 4 ) and remained married for 33 years until she died of breast cancer. I had no plans even to date anyone else, but my current wife of 17 years was dropped into my lap from 7500 miles away three years after my first wife's death. She had been married twice before, both for short times in what passed for marriage in the USSR. She was and is far more devoutly "biblical" than I am, but in both instances she simply did what she felt she had to do to protect her daughter. She never gave the biblical admonitions about divorce and remarriage a thought and frankly neither did I. Real life almost always takes precedence - and should, it seems to me.

 

[Wick Stick]

What difference do you see in a Certificate of Divorce in biblical times and an Annulment today?

As nearly as I can tell, the Old Testament regulations surrounding divorce are set up to prevent men from committing dowry fraud - that is, marrying a woman, collecting her dowry, then divorcing her after a short while to go and find a new bride with a new dowry to spend.

There are no dowries today, so the point is completely different. Annulments typically only happen in Catholic countries where the church still holds power over marriage. There, the point of an annulment is to keep eligibility to be married at some point in the future. Otherwise one is condemned to either remain single or else have a state wedding, which many people consider illegitimate.

 

[Rita]

I was part of a ministry team for divorce women, many were rejected by their church families. Even my own church family were ill equips to deal with the very deep pain that I faced when my marriage ended.
They call divorce ‘ Death without casseroles ‘ and on the scale of grief it is second , first being the loss of a child and third being the loss of a spouse.
I knew that it was time and I also Knew the Lord was with me and to this day I have never felt any guilt about the divorce, I did however have to really evaluate my role In how things had gone so wrong, no way was everything my husbands failing despite the endless affairs.
I have never had any desire to re marry and 16years down the line I am content and happy , when my marriage ended I felt I was being released from a prison - my husband was not a believer ( I came to faith three years into it ).
I felt a pull to handle the divorce Gods way , I didn’t seek revenge, kept the lines of communication open despite internally wanting to throw a brick at my ex at times. We remained friends until he died of cancer in 2019.

 

[St. SteVen]

As nearly as I can tell, the Old Testament regulations surrounding divorce are set up to prevent men from committing dowry fraud - that is, marrying a woman, collecting her dowry, then divorcing her after a short while to go and find a new bride with a new dowry to spend.

You raise an interesting point.
I don't recall anything about dowry in the law.

Actually, I thought a dowry was PAID by the groom. ???
But the definition says that is called a bride price and dower.

Genesis 34:12 NIV
Make the price for the bride and the gift I am to bring as great as you like,
and I’ll pay whatever you ask me. Only give me the young woman as my wife.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dowry
A dowry is a payment, such as property or money, paid by the bride's family
to the groom or his family at the time of marriage. Dowry contrasts with the related concepts
of bride price and dower. While bride price or bride service is a payment by the groom, or his family,
to the bride, or her family, dowry is the wealth transferred from the bride,
or her family, to the groom, or his family.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I was part of a ministry team for divorce women, many were rejected by their church families. Even my own church family were ill equips to deal with the very deep pain that I faced when my marriage ended.
They call divorce ‘ Death without casseroles ‘ and on the scale of grief it is second , first being the loss of a child and third being the loss of a spouse.
I knew that it was time and I also Knew the Lord was with me and to this day I have never felt any guilt about the divorce, I did however have to really evaluate my role In how things had gone so wrong, no way was everything my husbands failing despite the endless affairs.
I have never had any desire to re marry and 16years down the line I am content and happy , when my marriage ended I felt I was being released from a prison - my husband was not a believer ( I came to faith three years into it ).
I felt a pull to handle the divorce Gods way , I didn’t seek revenge, kept the lines of communication open despite internally wanting to throw a brick at my ex at times. We remained friends until he died of cancer in 2019.

Thanks for that testimony.
I wonder what the percentages are for people walking away from church or God in that situation. ???
Were you able to in most cases help the women you were ministering to retain a relationship with God,
even though they had been alienated by the church?

/

 

[Rita]

Thanks for that testimony.
I wonder what the percentages are for people walking away from church or God in that situation. ???
Were you able to in most cases help the women you were ministering to retain a relationship with God,
even though they had been alienated by the church?

/

Most of the women remained close to the Lord, it was Gods people who they had issues with. Many had husbands who had had affairs or were abusive and yet they never lost their roles in church ( many were leaders ) This was the side of things that I could never understand, there was no accountability with the men , just the women. Sadly the ministry closed some years back, but many of us have remained online friends - most were from the USA , I was the token Brit from across the pond.

 

[Rita]

I did go along to a Christian run ‘ recovery from divorce ‘ it was quite helpful until one session almost demanded that we all repent of being divorced. As I said I never felt any conviction, had complete peace about that side of things. So I didn’t comply with that part and didn’t go along to anymore sessions.

 

[Behold]

The modern KJV (not the NKJV) was a collaborative effort by both Cambridge and Oxford Universities and again was for the Anglican Church. It really never was popular until a massive marketing campaign in the 1920's.

Your KJV history is your personally warped pipe dream. @JohnDB


The fact is, that nearly every great Preacher , ... Wesley, Spurgeon, Cartwright, and all the amazing "end time specialists" like Dakes, and Matthew Henry.. and Clarence Larkin...
And now add in

James Kennedy
Adrian Rogers
David Jeremiah
Lloyd Ogilvie
Billy Graham

Now add in EVERY GREAT REVIVAL since 175O..


What do all those have in common?

They were all ORIGINALLY under the direct Influence of the "Authorized Version" the KJV, even if later they decided to be stupid later in their old age.... and try to correct the BIBLE with the K.Greek.

A.) That's the History, Reader......of this particular bible.

So, dont let those who hate the KJV rabbit hole you into their particular ignorant obsession.

 

[Wick Stick]

You raise an interesting point.
I don't recall anything about dowry in the law.

Actually, I thought a dowry was PAID by the groom. ???
But the definition says that is called a bride price and dower.

Genesis 34:12 NIV
Make the price for the bride and the gift I am to bring as great as you like,
and I’ll pay whatever you ask me. Only give me the young woman as my wife.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dowry
A dowry is a payment, such as property or money, paid by the bride's family
to the groom or his family at the time of marriage. Dowry contrasts with the related concepts
of bride price and dower. While bride price or bride service is a payment by the groom, or his family,
to the bride, or her family, dowry is the wealth transferred from the bride,
or her family, to the groom, or his family.

/

My understanding of the dowry was that it was meant to help the young couple start their life together - it provided a financial cushion for the groom while he went and (literally) built a home.

But it probably depends to some extent on the social status of the two families, and the other terms of the marriage. In the Bible, marriages often establish treaties.

 

[JohnDB]

Your KJV history is your personally warped pipe dream. @JohnDB


The fact is, that nearly every great Preacher , ... Wesley, Spurgeon, Cartwright, and all the amazing "end time specialists" like Dakes, and Matthew Henry.. and Clarence Larkin...
And now add in

James Kennedy
Adrian Rogers
David Jeremiah
Lloyd Ogilvie
Billy Graham

Now add in EVERY GREAT REVIVAL since 175O..


What do all those have in common?

They were all ORIGINALLY under the direct Influence of the "Authorized Version" the KJV, even if later they decided to be stupid later in their old age.... and try to correct the BIBLE with the K.Greek.

A.) That's the History, Reader......of this particular bible.

So, dont let those who hate the KJV rabbit hole you into their particular ignorant obsession.

Shhhhh
Adults were talking and you interrupted....

Take your Bible and go back into the corner....k?