Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.

[amadeus]

That's a great point.
And even between believers. God hates divorce, but he loves us more.
Divorce is a bad situation. God is in the business of restoring people in bad situations.

The world (and even the church) tries to make divorce a "scarlet letter", marking the victim for life.
God is there to accept and comfort us if we will but turn to him.

We have all heard the testimonies of what God has done and continues to do for us.
Like the song, "Way maker, miracle worker..."

View attachment 39754

/

I won't try to wade through the if,and,or buts of this as for now it would not apply to me. My wife and I have been married for over 50 years with no prior marriages for either of us. No divorce is expected in our lifetimes.

For others, divorce should be avoided whenever possible. Sometimes it may not be possible. The scriptures do provide guidelines for believers and people in doubtful situations may ask others for advice if they need it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Look, you are able to run this discussion into a great many pages as you argue hypotheticals,insert other excerpted scriptures,in order to insist your OP premise stands.

It doesn't.

It can't,ever.

Because all it takes to vacate your opinion is one statement from Christ wherein He states Adultery,sex,fornication,outside of the marriage, is the one exception to the overall prohibition against divorce.
And He did state that.

I just re-read the key verse. See below.

The committing of adultery is in the remarriage.
With the only exception being remarriage due to fornication.
How can that be an exception if it is the broader term?

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

 

[TheHC]

I think the key to the passage is when Jesus refers to what God has joined together; a marriage covenant.
Rather than stating, whom God hath joined together.

When two becomes one in marriage and one of those two cheat,they've broken the covenant.
Which is why divorce is permitted.

Very good reasoning!

That's an interesting question. What did God put together?

IMO…
The “what” is the marriage institution involving a covenant / contract, wherein a man & a woman make a lifelong promise, to each other and to God.

@BlessedPeace answered it well, in post #215.

And to agree with you, “permitted” is a better term.

A marriage ending in divorce, and especially the underlying cause or causes, is always sad.
Jehovah God doesn’t want us to be sad. He’s “the Happy God” (1 Timothy 1:11), and He wants the same for us. But obedience is prime…. and this world, temporarily alienated from God (James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19), makes it difficult at times.

Best wishes, to my cousins.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That's an interesting question. What did God put together?

IMO…
The “what” is the marriage institution involving a covenant / contract, wherein a man & a woman make a lifelong promise, to each other and to God.

@BlessedPeace answered it well, in post #215.

And to agree with you, “permitted” is a better term.

A marriage ending in divorce, and especially the underlying cause or causes, is always sad.
Jehovah God doesn’t want us to be sad. He’s “the Happy God” (1 Timothy 1:11), and He wants the same for us. But obedience is prime…. and this world, temporarily alienated from God (James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19), makes it difficult at times.

I was just thinking this week that there are a couple of cultural things that we don't consider in all this.
1) In biblical times, marriages were typically arranged by the parents. Lovers didn't choose each other as mates.
2) A certificate of divorce was given to the wife by a husband. Wives couldn't divorce their husbands.

A couple in an arranged marriage were making a lifelong covenant. ???

/

 

[Behold]

I just re-read the key verse. See below.

The committing of adultery is in the remarriage.


/

Reader,

For this particular subject, the KJV is where you need to go, as some other versions really translated this verse completely wrong.

Notice..


""""So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."""""

Now LOOK..

"If while her husband liveth, she be married to another man'' = "called an adulteress".


Now here is how that is wrongly taught.

1.) She got married to a 2nd Husband, = Adultery.


Now look at the verse again, Reader.

Its says if her Husband is not dead and she be married to another Husband.

How many husbands does she have?

She has 2 Husbands..

She never divorced the first one...

READ THE VERSE..


So, this woman has 2 Husbands... and there is another word for that.....

 

[St. SteVen]

1.) She got married to a 2nd Husband, = Adultery.

What if the couple agrees to celibacy?
Is it adultery then?

So, this woman has 2 Husbands... and there is another word for that.....

Like polygamy?
Not a sin as I understand it.

Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?

Only when it is your wife's sister as a rival wife. WHILE your wife is still living.

Leviticus 18:18 NIV
Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

/

 

[JohnDB]

What if the couple agrees to celibacy?
Is it adultery then?

Like polygamy?
Not a sin as I understand it.

Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?

Only when it is your wife's sister as a rival wife. WHILE your wife is still living.

Leviticus 18:18 NIV
Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

/

How can a man remarry after divorce and commit adultery if polygamy is allowed?
(He cant)

Also....if a woman commits adultery she was regularly stoned to death. No reason to divorce a dead person. (John 8)

Something is wrong with this logic.

Maybe there's something wrong with the translation of this verse since King Henry the 8th caused the Bible, translated into English, finally be published on a broad scale. And to this day people translating the scriptures pay homage to the original translators work.
Ya know....maybe....

 

[Behold]

What if the couple agrees to celibacy?
Is it adultery then?



/

2 Marriages, is the issue.
= "if her husband lives and she be married to another.."

So, let me answer your other question... AND for the Readers who find this post..., = a fair warning, as this is going to be more
"eye opening" then you expected.

Now...There is a marriage license, and there is a marriage (wedding) ceremony.

However, in the Garden of Eden, There was none of this.....

God said that "its not good for a Man to be alone" So, He put Adam to sleep, took out a rib and Created another man with a Womb.

Wombman//. or "woman", and She is "made for the man"... She is a FE-Male.

God made her with curves, and to be soft and round and sweet and kind and loving and tender hearted..
He made Eve (woman) to be Intensely ATTRACTIVE to Adam., as that causes the "earth to be replenished".

God is very interesting.
God created Sexual Intimacy to be an extremely strong need.
So, enjoy that with your WIFE OR HUSBAND, often, but only with Them.
"the marriage bed is undefiled"..

And there is a lot here to understand but notice that the rib of the man is at his side, and that is where the Womb-man, is created to exist.
Not out in front trying to control and not behind the man as a slave.
BUT BY HIS SIDE< where She is his greatest : HELP - Mate.

The Russians have a unique way of describing this.... as the "second half" vs the "better half" as you find it described in the USA.

"Second Half" is more biblical, as that means "you are completed by", and that is a Wife To her Husband.. She Completes Him...
It is a fact in this life, in this world that if you have a Great Man, you have a great wife who is usually the reason .
Good Wives provide foundation and support and encouragement and focus, and unconditional love.

God has an interesting psychology in place regarding women and men.

= Women want to feel secure.
= Men want to feel respected.

And if that is not happening in a marriage then that one is over, if it does not change into that relationship.

So, I digressed because Readers need to know some things...


Now.... what was marriage in the Garden of Eden..., and still today?

A.) "flesh, joining flesh"... as "a man shall leave his parents and CLEAVE to his WIFE"...

How do you cleave to your wife?

= "Flesh joining Flesh" .. "2 shall become ONE FLESH".

THATS SEXUAL Intercourse......

This is the "consummation of "...

And as i was teaching yesterday... ... = With God all things are covenant, and often BLOOD Covenant.

This is why a woman can "bleed" when her Husband initially joins himself to her...
See that?
God created that also, as a blood covenant between the man and His WIFE.

And that reader, is not a marriage license or a wedding ceremony.. yet it is a MARRIAGE.

And THAT is why Paul told us to "flee Fornication" because that is "flesh joining FLESH", = 2 become ONE.

Now, Reader, this can "freak you out" if you realize what i just taught you... so, here is "the deal".

And im going to show you, but im not going to argue with you, as for some.... its best that you just dont understand any of this at all, as its the knowledge of sin, that is always the issue...... as that is why its SIN.

So, if you are born again, and you have joined yourself to others, if you are fornicator... then STOP DOING THAT., and be so very thankful that you are not under the law.... but under grace .. as you just realized you broke your marriage, and not just one, if you are chronic fornicator.
You're not under the law, but you do have a moral responsibility to tell your wife.
Now, im not talking about flirting with someone, or even a lot of fantasy regarding thinking about being with someone, intimately.
Stop that also, but you keep that to yourself.
Do not tell that to your Church Members, as they will burn you with it.
They will.
Do not tell them.. if you have a out of control fantasy life.
You can tell me.. Or you can tell someone in the ministry who has a "faithful spirit".

Be very careful who you tell what, as the devil will shine it out loud for all to see, so be careful with your personal life history.

And if you are an unbeliever, never born again... then you are "under the law" and the law says that when you fornicate you have become ONE with that ONE.

So, Dont do that., as once you do, you have an issue that you didnt realize.

And the way to solve that, is to Trust in Christ and Let God get ALL those sins off of you, so that you become a "new Creation", just like brand new.

Now you may still face the consequences for your previous behavior down here, after you are born again, but, you'll never have to face God in eternity regarding any of that..

See, when Jesus becomes our "sin bearer", He does not miss any of them.

"God hath made Jesus to BE SIN FOR US", and that means ALL your SIN.

Welcome To Salvation.

ITS A GIFT ..

Don't leave this Earth without it....

 

[O'Darby]

The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.

Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?

The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.

The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.

The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.

This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???

For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18

Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.

Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

--- COMPARE ---

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

No time to read the whole thread, but I believe what He clearly said is in Mark 10, the earliest Gospel:

He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.​

​

No fornication exemption AT ALL.

Matthew's is the Jewish Gospel. It's pretty clear Matthew knew the Jews would say "WHAT??? Not even for fornication?" and added the exemption.

I find it comical to picture Jesus interrupting his own profound statement with "Oh, except in the case of forniction, of course - nobody has to put up with THAT."

 

[St. SteVen]

How can a man remarry after divorce and commit adultery if polygamy is allowed?
(He cant)

That's a good question.
1) If the wives are not divorced, there is no adultery.
2) Jesus said the only grounds for divorce was fornication.
Which means the bride was not a virgin, as promised by the parents.
Breach of contract.

Also....if a woman commits adultery she was regularly stoned to death. No reason to divorce a dead person. (John 8)
Something is wrong with this logic.

That's a great workaround. - LOL

Maybe there's something wrong with the translation of this verse since King Henry the 8th caused the Bible, translated into English, finally be published on a broad scale. And to this day people translating the scriptures pay homage to the original translators work.
Ya know....maybe....

The King James version supports the NT Greek.
It differentiates fornication and adultery. Modern translations don't. (in general)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

No time to read the whole thread, but I believe what He clearly said is in Mark 10, the earliest Gospel:

He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.​

​

No fornication exemption AT ALL.

Matthew's is the Jewish Gospel. It's pretty clear Matthew knew the Jews would say "WHAT??? Not even for fornication?" and added the exemption.

I find it comical to picture Jesus interrupting his own profound statement with "Oh, except in the case of forniction, of course - nobody has to put up with THAT."

Yes, good. Mark 10 adds some interesting details, which leaves this subject as clear as mud.

1) The Certificate of Divorce was not a part of the law God gave the Israelites. Moses allowed it.
2) However, divorce for reason of fornication WAS a part of the law God gave the Israelites.
See Deuteronomy 22:13-18 below.

Deuteronomy 22:13-18 NIV
If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her
14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying,
“I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,”
15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders
at the gate proof that she was a virgin.
16 Her father will say to the elders,
“I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her.
17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’
But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.”
Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town,
18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him.

No time to read the whole thread, but I believe what He clearly said is in Mark 10, the earliest Gospel:

He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.​

​

No fornication exemption AT ALL.

Matthew's is the Jewish Gospel. It's pretty clear Matthew knew the Jews would say "WHAT??? Not even for fornication?" and added the exemption.

I find it comical to picture Jesus interrupting his own profound statement with "Oh, except in the case of forniction, of course - nobody has to put up with THAT."

I'm not sure why the bit about fornication, which WAS a part of the law was excluded in Mark but included (added) to Matthew.

But then Jesus does away with divorce of any kind.
It seems to parallel a relationship with God. Often idolatry is referred to as an adulterous act.

Ezekiel 6:9 NIV
Then in the nations where they have been carried captive, those who escape will remember me—
how I have been grieved by their adulterous hearts, which have turned away from me, and by their eyes,
which have lusted after their idols. They will loathe themselves for the evil
they have done and for all their detestable practices.

Matthew 12:39 NIV
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign!
But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

/

 

[Behold]

No time to read the whole thread, but I believe what He clearly said is in Mark 10, the earliest Gospel:

He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.​

​

No fornication exemption AT ALL.

Reader,

If you misapply verses that Jesus was giving to the House of Israel, (Jews) under the Law to the Bride of Christ who are not under the law, then what you are applying, will not fit as doctrine .

You always have to look at verses that came before the New Covenant, as many of them are contextually (legally) related to the Jew, under the law.
So, if you apply those verse to those who are "not under the Law, but under Grace" then that is theological error.

Paul teaches us this as "rightly dividing" the word.

Let me show you something else Reader..

Adam and Eve, were not "under the law".. as Moses was not around then, so, no Law, no 10 Commandments.

And it was in that situation that God explained "one Flesh" as marriage.
That means that didnt change.

But what has changed is being made free from Sin, by the Cross of Christ. "under Grace".

 

[O'Darby]

Reader,

If you misapply verses that Jesus was giving to the House of Israel, (Jews) under the Law to the Bride of Christ who are not under the law, then what you are applying, will not fit as doctrine .

You always have to look at verses that came before the New Covenant, as many of them are contextually (legally) related to the Jew, under the law.
So, if you apply those verse to those who are "not under the Law, but under Grace" then that is theological error.

Paul teaches us this as "rightly dividing" the word.

Let me show you something else Reader..

Adam and Eve, were not "under the law".. as Moses was not around then, so, no Law, no 10 Commandments.

And it was in that situation that God explained "one Flesh" as marriage.
That means that didnt change.

But what has changed is being made free from Sin, by the Cross of Christ. "under Grace".

I have no idea what you're talking about, and I don't think it's because I'm obtuse. We are talking about two distinctly different versions of what Jesus said about divorce to the same audience - the earlier version in Mark and the later version in Matthew.

 

[Rita]

Well I am not into polygamy so I divorced my husband, just too many other women in the relationship. !!!

 

[Behold]

I have no idea what you're talking about, and I don't think it's because I'm obtuse. We are talking about two distinctly different versions of what Jesus said about divorce to the same audience - the earlier version in Mark and the later version in Matthew.

I explained it clearly., so let me try it from an adjacent angle.

See, anytime Jesus is explaining something, before He is Crucified, He's talking to Jews, and not the Christians., unless He is speaking prophetically or sometimes symbolically, or allegorically.

And example is...

The Prodigal Son.. as that is really just the Gospel.. That is God and the LOST son, (all unbelievers) and God gives Him a Ring, a Coat, and a Feast., which is Salvation, and Heaven.
See that RING? A BRIDE wears a Ring.... "the Bride of Christ"
See all that?
So, all of that is related to Salvation in the Church age.

Reader.....Christianity began when Jesus said..>>"into thy hands, i commit my Spirit".

Thats when Christianity Started, as it couldn't start until God provided Salvation through Christ's BLOOD and death.

Till then, you have this... = Jesus talking to Jews....>"if you keep my words you are my DISCIPLE indeed".

Notice Christ didn't say.. "Son of God" or "Heir of God" or "Born again"?

A.) No Cross = No Christianity Yet.

So, when Jesus was not there yet, He was not talking to the "church"., as that didnt start till the "time of the Gentiles began" and its the Cross of Christ that started it... Christ's death on the Cross IS the New Covenant and the New Testament and the place where Law ends for the Believer and Grace becomes its replacement.

"not under the law, but under Grace" = all the born again.

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for Righteousness, to/for, everyone who believes".

So, IN COMES the New Covenant, and that one made everything change regarding how God was dealing currently with the world.

As Now the Jew is set aside, and the Gentiles are being "grafted in"., in the "time of the Gentiles"..

When does God restart His dealing with the Jew?

A.) The Tribulation.


So, in the New Covenant, the TEACHER... Theologically speaking is not the Pope, or Calvin, or Luther, or Church Fathers, or Peter, or Jude, or James, or Andrew, or Mary.....

Its Paul.. as he is the "apostle to the gentiles" and we are in the "time of the Gentiles"....and so, when we look at verses that were given before the Crucifixion, we are seeing Jesus the Jew, dealing with the Jew, and THEY, are all under the LAW.
So, those verses, many of them, will not theologically work for the Bride of Christ, and RIGHT THERE is where so much confusion and "up pops another denomination" to add to the 45,000 world...... keeps going and going.

Reader, when you dont evaluate the NT verses and the OT Verses in Light of the Cross, then you will wrongly divide the NT and you will be confused about Salvation, confused about verses........and on and on.

What you have to have, reader, is a good teacher, because if you dont, you have a bad one and a bad one, might be connected to the devil., as He has His ministers, all around you.

Look to the Teacher who shows you how to see the Bible, as the Holy Spirit teaches it.
And that teacher is always always always going to Keep you CROSS CENTERED, regarding your Faith and Theology.

The= false teachers, lead you into Self Effort and Self Righteousness.

 

[O'Darby]

I explained it clearly., so let me try it from an adjacent angle.

See, anytime Jesus is explaining something, before He is Crucified, He's talking to Jews, and not the Christians., unless He is speaking prophetically or sometimes symbolically, or allegorically.

And example is...

The Prodigal Son.. as that is really just the Gospel.. That is God and the LOST son, (all unbelievers) and God gives Him a Ring, a Coat, and a Feast., which is Salvation, and Heaven.
So, all of that is related to Salvation in the Church age.

Reader.....Christianity began when Jesus said..>>"into thy hands, i commit my Spirit".

Thats when Christianity Started, as it couldn't start until God provided Salvation through Christ's death.

Till then, you have this... = Jesus talking to Jews....>"if you keep my words you are my DISCIPLE indeed".

Notice Christ didn't say.. "Son of God" or "Heir of God" or "Born again"?

A.) No Cross = No Christianity Yet.

So, when Jesus was not there yet, He was not talking to the "church"., as that didnt start till the "time of the Gentiles began" and its the Cross of Christ that started it... Christ's death on the Cross IS the New Covenant and the New Testament and the place where Law ends for the Believer and Grace becomes its replacement.

"not under the law, but under Grace" = all the born again.

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for Righteousness, to/for, everyone who believes".

So, IN COMES the New Covenant, and that one made everything change regarding how God was dealing with the world.

As Now the Jew is set aside, and the Gentiles are being "grafted in"., in the "time of the Gentiles"..

When does God restart His dealing with the Jew?

A.) The Tribulation.


So, in the New Covenant, the TEACHER... Theologically speaking is not the Pope, or Calvin, or Luther, or Church Fathers, or Peter, or Jude, or James, or Andrew, or Mary.....

Its Paul.. as he is the "apostle to the gentiles" and we are in the "time of the Gentiles"....and so, when we look at verses that were given before the Crucifixion, we are seeing Jesus the Jew, dealing with the Jew, and THEY, are all under the LAW.
So, those verses, many of them, will not theologically work for the Bride of Christ, and RIGHT THERE is where so much confusion and "up pops another denomination" to add to the 45,000 world...... keeps going and going.

Reader, when you dont evaluate the NT verses and the OT Verse in Light of the Cross, then you will wrongly divide the NT and you will be confused about Salvation, confused about verses........and on and on.

Ah, clear at last! You worship Paul (or at least the Jesus of Paul), not Jesus (or at least not the Jesus of the Gospels). Not an uncommon theology. Many think Paul is in fact the inventor of Christianity. In my blog entry of yesterday, I mentioned a recent 15-part series Searching for the Historical Jesus. It makes this very point.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Reader,

For this particular subject, the KJV is where you need to go, as some other versions really translated this verse completely wrong.

Notice..


""""So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."""""

Now LOOK..

"If while her husband liveth, she be married to another man'' = "called an adulteress".


Now here is how that is wrongly taught.

1.) She got married to a 2nd Husband, = Adultery.


Now look at the verse again, Reader.

Its says if her Husband is not dead and she be married to another Husband.

How many husbands does she have?

She has 2 Husbands..

She never divorced the first one...

READ THE VERSE..


So, this woman has 2 Husbands... and there is another word for that.....

Polygamy.


How many Fundamentalist Christian women, divorced, never remarried because they didn't understand that verse?


And even so, if a husband divorced his wife, no woman is obligated to live without knowing a genuine living relationship.

These "laws of God", are what Jesus condemned in the Pharisees injecting their laws and punishments in the name of God.

 

[Behold]

Ah, clear at last! You worship Paul, not Jesus.

@0'darby

I dont appreciate you lie.
Keep them to yourself and off the Forum.

and also, you are not a devoted Bible believer, according to your THREAD..... and that is among the reasons that what Paul teaches, is not related to your theology.
And that is something you need to deal with, asap.

Now, Paul said...

"be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ", and a person who is not a student of the word, would read that as.. "Paul said to worship Him".

Now, that is not the concept... Paul is showing us, that His Walk of Faith, His Christianity, His Doctrine, is to become OURS.

The doctrine for the Church and the very "Gospel of the Grace of God", was delivered to Paul, from Jesus Himself.

This is why Paul said that His Gospel he received came from "NO MAN".
And the Gospel that Real Christians teach and preach and BELIEVED< came from Paul, who called it "my Gospel", 3X in the NT.

Paul's epistles, his teaching is our Church Doctrine.

Everything from The Gospel, to the teaching on Gift's of the Spirit, and "how to choose a Pastor"...

This all comes from PAUL.

So, we the born again, have to study Paul's 13 Epistles, as this is where we find HOW we are to "rightly divide" the word , "study to show ourselves approved to God...... (more verses by Paul).

So, if your teacher or preacher or pope or commentary writer, does not teach you what im showing you, then get a new one.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.

Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?

The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.

The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.

The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.

This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???

For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18

Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.

Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

--- COMPARE ---

Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

/

Dear St. SteVen,

Fornication is sex between two people who are not married to each other. Fornication can occur between married or unmarried individuals. In the case of fornication with married individuals, it is called adultery.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

A wife's uncleanness can be that she was not a virgin when the marriage took place (as you pointed out) - but it can also be that her uncleanness was caused by adultery during the marriage. Both are grounds for divorce.

When Christ began His Old Covenant relationship with the Nation of Israel, He, in effect, married the nation. But when Israel became unfaithful (committed adultery), Christ divorce her:

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The teachings of marriage and adultery are presented in scripture because those teachings apply spiritually to Christ and His Elect.

When an Elect person is saved, they have spiritually married Christ and have become His bride. This is why Paul said that when a new believer receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they have become espoused to Christ.

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

They are said to be a virgin because the Early Rain of the Spirit gives the person a new birth. Their past fornications with Satan are no longer applicable because the person is now a "new creation".

After a person is espoused to Christ, the Bridegroom will go away with the promise to return later to take his virgin to the marriage ceremony. However, in order for the marriage to take place, the espoused believer MUST remain faithful (chaste) to Christ. If Christ returns and finds that His virgin is no longer chaste, the marriage will not take place.

Because the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure (Deu 32:2, Job 37:6 & Joel 2:23), the virgin will remain carnal and spiritually blind (like Adam and Eve were) while she waits for the Bridegroom to return. As a result, , the virgin will not remain faithful to Christ while He is away because Satan will come to her and deceive her - just as he deceived Adam/Eve in the Garden of Eden. Because this happens to all the Elect after they are espoused to Christ, it is necessary for Christ "come again" and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain of the Spirit, the Elect person will be converted and their virginity restored. They will then be ready for the Bridegroom to return and take them to the marriage ceremony.

The concept of the marriage analogy is primarily taught by the parable of the Ten Virgins, but as with all truth, it is taught "here a little and there a little".

The purpose of the marriage analogy is to teach the pathway that the Elect will travel to their salvation. Christ also uses other analogies to teach this same pathway.

Here is where Christ's marriage relationship with the Elect first began:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Adam and Eve are the "wife of youth". But after Satan came to them, Adam/Eve fornicated with Satan (believed Satan over Christ) and became unfaithful. This act is called spiritual adultery. After Christ discovered their adultery, Christ divorced them and cast them out of His home (the Garden of Eden/Kingdom of Heaven). Since that time, Christ has been working to restore His marriage with Adam/Eve (the Elect).

As I said earlier, the Nation of Israel, under the Old Covenant, was Christ's first attempt to restore His marriage relationship with the Elect. But since the Old Covenant of Law could not keep the nation faithful to Him, that marriage also ended in divorce. Now under the New Covenant, Christ is working to change mankind spiritually beforehand so that His wife will remain faithful to Him. Christ makes this spiritual change within His bride by giving them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit prior to the marriage taking place. After the marriage ceremony, the bride will remain faithful.

Joe

 

[BlessedPeace]

Dear St. SteVen,

Fornication is sex between two people who are not married to each other. Fornication can occur between married or unmarried individuals. In the case of fornication with married individuals, it is called adultery.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

A wife's uncleanness can be that she was not a virgin when the marriage took place (as you pointed out) - but it can also be that her uncleanness was caused by adultery during the marriage. Both are grounds for divorce.

When Christ began His Old Covenant relationship with the Nation of Israel, He, in effect, married the nation. But when Israel became unfaithful (committed adultery), Christ divorce her:

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

The teachings of marriage and adultery are presented in scripture because those teachings apply spiritually to Christ and His Elect.

When an Elect person is saved, they have spiritually married Christ and have become His bride. This is why Paul said that when a new believer receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they have become espoused to Christ.

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

They are said to be a virgin because the Early Rain of the Spirit gives the person a new birth. Their past fornications with Satan are no longer applicable because the person is now a "new creation".

After a person is espoused to Christ, the Bridegroom will go away with the promise to return later to take his virgin to the marriage ceremony. However, in order for the marriage to take place, the espoused believer MUST remain faithful (chaste) to Christ. If Christ returns and finds that His virgin is no longer chaste, the marriage will not take place.

Because the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure (Deu 32:2, Job 37:6 & Joel 2:23), the virgin will remain carnal and spiritually blind (like Adam and Eve were) while she waits for the Bridegroom to return. As a result, , the virgin will not remain faithful to Christ while He is away because Satan will come to her and deceive her - just as he deceived Adam/Eve in the Garden of Eden. Because this happens to all the Elect after they are espoused to Christ, it is necessary for Christ "come again" and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain of the Spirit, the Elect person will be converted and their virginity restored. They will then be ready for the Bridegroom to return and take them to the marriage ceremony.

The concept of the marriage analogy is primarily taught by the parable of the Ten Virgins, but as with all truth, it is taught "here a little and there a little".

The purpose of the marriage analogy is to teach the pathway that the Elect will travel to their salvation. Christ also uses other analogies to teach this same pathway.

Here is where Christ's marriage relationship with the Elect first began:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Adam and Eve are the "wife of youth". But after Satan came to them, Adam/Eve fornicated with Satan (believed Satan over Christ) and became unfaithful. This act is called spiritual adultery. After Christ discovered their adultery, Christ divorced them and cast them out of His home (the Garden of Eden/Kingdom of Heaven). Since that time, Christ has been working to restore His marriage with Adam/Eve (the Elect).

As I said earlier, the Nation of Israel, under the Old Covenant, was Christ's first attempt to restore His marriage relationship with the Elect. But since the Old Covenant of Law could not keep the nation faithful to Him, that marriage also ended in divorce. Now under the New Covenant, Christ is working to change mankind spiritually beforehand so that His wife will remain faithful to Him. Christ makes this spiritual change within His bride by giving them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit prior to the marriage taking place. After the marriage ceremony, the bride will remain faithful.

Joe

And a man who has sex before marriage is a fornicator and unclean. A man who has sex with someone not his wife is an adulterer.

And per the law he would be stoned to death.