Did the Apostle Paul die from being stoned in Lystra?

[TEXBOW]

In 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul tells of a man (himself most think) was taken to the third Heaven. He mentions 14 years prior. Early Church history says that 14 years prior to 2 Corinthians being written Paul was in Lystra. Paul was stoned in Lystra and presumed dead. Did Paul have an out of body Experience and God called him to Heaven? Could Paul have been dead but came back to life? Can we discount similar experiences by people today?

 

[Pythagorean12]

We don't know. Though there are many secular theories

How Did the Apostles Die? What We Actually Know - OverviewBible

 

[quietthinker]

In 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul tells of a man (himself most think) was taken to the third Heaven. He mentions 14 years prior. Early Church history says that 14 years prior to 2 Corinthians being written Paul was in Lystra. Paul was stoned in Lystra and presumed dead. Did Paul have an out of body Experience and God called him to Heaven? Could Paul have been dead but came back to life? Can we discount similar experiences by people today?

I suppose Jonah drowned in the belly of the fish .....unless he was a good breath holder (for three days) and oxygen deprivation gave him visions.
Does it really matter? Is it any big deal for God to resurrect the dead?

 

[Taken]

In 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul tells of a man (himself most think) was taken to the third Heaven. He mentions 14 years prior. Early Church history says that 14 years prior to 2 Corinthians being written Paul was in Lystra. Paul was stoned in Lystra and presumed dead. Did Paul have an out of body Experience and God called him to Heaven? Could Paul have been dead but came back to life? Can we discount similar experiences by people today?

There are cases in the Bible of body’s dying! Souls departing the body, souls returning to the body and bodily life resuming. Temporary bodily Death occurs today...for seconds or minutes...so I suppose your question about Paul may have been possible.

I think the more likely point is there Was an Angel present with Paul, which is verification...Paul was saved.
Acts tells us of Paul being saved, yet Scripture verifies Scripture.
My speculative point.

If anyone “thought" Paul was dead...Angels “escort” departed saved souls to heaven. Unsaved souls are “sent” to Hell...I believe without an escort.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

In 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul tells of a man (himself most think) was taken to the third Heaven. He mentions 14 years prior. Early Church history says that 14 years prior to 2 Corinthians being written Paul was in Lystra. Paul was stoned in Lystra and presumed dead. Did Paul have an out of body Experience and God called him to Heaven? Could Paul have been dead but came back to life? Can we discount similar experiences by people today?

Paul said this was not him that went to the third heaven. He wouldn't boast about himself, but he would this other fellow. Unless we are prepared to say Paul was intending to be deliberately deceptive, it wasn't him.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Paul said this was not him that went to the third heaven. He wouldn't boast about himself, but he would this other fellow. Unless we are prepared to say Paul was intending to be deliberately deceptive, it wasn't him.

Much love!

could he be speaking in the third person?

 

[TEXBOW]

Paul said this was not him that went to the third heaven. He wouldn't boast about himself, but he would this other fellow. Unless we are prepared to say Paul was intending to be deliberately deceptive, it wasn't him.

Much love!

2 Cor 12
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Paul does not say it is not himself. Paul is saying that he does not want to boast of such a thing happening.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Paul said this was not him that went to the third heaven. He wouldn't boast about himself, but he would this other fellow. Unless we are prepared to say Paul was intending to be deliberately deceptive, it wasn't him.

Much love!

It is permissible to say you know someone who did something when that person is yourself, especially if identifying yourself would lead to accusations of boasting. Paul has maintained all along that it is foolish to boast of yourself, even though he wants to boast of this event.

There follows a great lesson regarding hardships that keep us humble.
Paul admits he might otherwise be extremely exalted because of his many revelations.

2Co 12:5-7 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. (6) For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. (7) And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

 

[marks]

could he be speaking in the third person?

He was pretty clear. "I won't boast about myself, but I will this other guy. I knew this guy over 14 years ago, who was caught up to the third heaven."

Either it wasn't him, or the Bible expresses here something that isn't true. I'm thinking the Bible is true.

Much love!

 

[marks]

2 Cor 12
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

Paul does not say it is not himself. Paul is saying that he does not want to boast of such a thing happening.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,

Who did Paul know more than 14 years previously?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

I'll boast about someone like that, but not of myself.

But you are saying he actually did mean himself?

I'll boast about myself in code . . . ?

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

I'll boast about someone like that, but not of myself.

But you are saying he actually did mean himself?

I'll boast about myself in code . . . ?

Much love!

Yes, this is a much loved trio of chapters for me, 10, 11, 12 of 2 Corinthians. Paul turns the argument that he is "walking in the flesh" on its head by showing what folly it would be to boast of the great things that attend his ministry, and in doing so provides a summary of those things.

There is a chain of context in which Paul uses satire as a work-around to present his ministry in the face of opposition that would otherwise claim he is being egotistical, which claim he cleverly sidelines by admitting to the folly of such boasting whilst pointing out the folly of his detractors.

Ch.10 Paul Will Not Boast Beyond Measure:

2Co 10:1-18 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. (2) But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. . .

. . . (8) For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed— (9) lest I seem to terrify you by letters. (10) "For his letters," they say, "are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible." (11) Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when we are absent, such we will also be in deed when we are present. (12) For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. (13) We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you. (14) For we are not overextending ourselves (as though our authority did not extend to you), for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ; (15) not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men's labors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere, (16) to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's sphere of accomplishment. (17) But "HE WHO GLORIES, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD." (18) For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.

Ch.11 Paul Will Call His Boasting Folly:

2Co 11:1-33 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. (2) For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (3) But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (4) For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! (5) For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. (6) Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things. (7) Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? (8) I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. (9) And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. (10) As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. (11) Why? Because I do not love you? God knows! (12) But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. (13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. (14) And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. (16) I say again, let no one think me a fool. If otherwise, at least receive me as a fool, that I also may boast a little. (17) What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were, foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. (18) Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast. (19) For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise! (20) For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. (21) To our shame I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold—I speak foolishly—I am bold also. (22) Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. (23) Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. (24) From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. (25) Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; (26) in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; (27) in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— (28) besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. (29) Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? (30) If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. (31) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. (32) In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; (33) but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.

Ch.12 Paul Will Admit That His Many Revelations Make Him Vulnerable To Pride:

(Note: Gal 1:11-12 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. (12) For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.)

2Co 12:1-21 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: (2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— (4) how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (5) Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. (6) For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. (7) And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. (8) Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. (9) And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (10) Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (11) I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. (12) Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. . .

 

[marks]

There is a chain of context in which Paul uses satire as a work-around to present his ministry in the face of opposition that would otherwise claim he is being egotistical, which claim he cleverly sidelines by admitting to the folly of such boasting whilst pointing out the folly of his detractors.

I love that part too, "Boasting is insane . . . I'm going to go a little insane here . . ." and off he goes. But he is still accurate in what he says.

So when I come to the part of "I won't boast of myself, but I will a guy like that", I'm figuring he's being just as accurate.

Much love!

 

[marks]

(5) Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. (6) For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

Interestingly, your quote here contains Paul's own affirmation that what he says is accurate. "I will speak the truth."

And he goes on to say his reason, lest anyone think of him above what they see or hear from him.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

So when I come to the part of "I won't boast of myself, but I will a guy like that", I'm figuring he's being just as accurate.

Well it's your call whether you believe it is permissible for Paul to write about himself in the third person to avoid the perception he is boasting.

What do you make of John writing these verses?:

Joh 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.

Joh 21:20-24 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" (21) Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?" (22) Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me." (23) Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?" (24) This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

 

[marks]

Well it's your call whether you believe it is permissible for Paul to write about himself in the third person to avoid the perception he is boasting.

It's not just a matter of speaking of one's self in the third person. Paul was specific.

"Of someone like this, I'll boast, but not about myself." That's more than just speaking in the 3rd person.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

It's not just a matter of speaking of one's self in the third person. Paul was specific.

"Of someone like this, I'll boast, but not about myself." That's more than just speaking in the 3rd person.

Much love!

I will speak of someone who admires Paul's restraint in boasting of such a person, but not of himself even though he is the person. Clever Paul.