Discipleship and John 15~

[Wormwood]

The call of discipleship is prevalent in the teaching of Jesus. Perhaps one of the most intriguing passages related to discipleship is John 15. Lets take a moment to examine the metaphors in this teaching to explore what Jesus wants to share with us about what it means to be his disciple.

THE TRUE VINE
Jesus declares that he is "the true vine." This is the last of the seven "I am" statements found in John's Gospel. So what does Jesus mean that he is the true vine? Throughout Israel's history, a vine or vineyard was a regular metaphor used to describe the people of God. Although it may make little sense to us in the 21st century, in the ancient near east, vineyards and wine making was a central economic mainstay for farmers. God often uses this normal farming practice as an illustration of his interaction with his people. Consider Isaiah 5 as a key example:

“I will sing for the one I love a song about his vineyard: My loved one had a vineyard on a fertile hillside. He dug it up and cleared it of stones and planted it with the choicest vines. He built a watchtower in it and cut out a winepress as well. Then he looked for a crop of good grapes, but it yielded only bad fruit. “Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad? Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it will be destroyed; I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled. I will make it a wasteland, neither pruned nor cultivated, and briers and thorns will grow there. I will command the clouds not to rain on it.” The vineyard of the Lord Almighty is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are the garden of his delight. And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed; for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.” (Isaiah 5:1–7, NIV84)

Many other examples could be listed. So, Jesus' statement here is startling. He declares he is the "true" vine. This is a very bold statement that clearly indicates that one must find their identity in Christ if they want to be a part of the "true" people of God. Jesus is clearly teaching here that belonging to God and his people starts and ends with him.

THE BRANCHES
Jesus teaches that "you" are the branches. The disciple is the branch that is connected to the vine. There are only two types of branches: connected branches (living & fruitful) and disconnected branches (dead and burned). The clear teaching here is that because Jesus is the "true" vine, a person MUST be connected to him if they are to produce any fruit for God. The fruit God is looking for in our lives can only come through identification with His Messiah. To not be connected with or fail to "remain" in Christ can only result in a dead and fruitless life that produces nothing meaningful to God. There are two key concepts to focus on here.

First, the word "remain." Jesus uses this word (Gk: meno) 7 times in these first eight verses. Jesus goes to great lengths to emphasize the importance of "remaining" in him. To me, this suggests that some can connect to Christ for a time, but ultimately fall away. Remember, Jesus is talking to his core disciples. He is warning THEM not to fall away, but to "remain" in him. We cannot produce fruit to God if we are not connected to Jesus Christ.

Second, Jesus teaches how we remain in him. Jesus calls his disciples to 1) remain in him and 2) let his words remain in them. This, in my opinion speaks to two key elements those who seek to be a disciple: faith and obedience. We are called to continue in a trusting relationship with Jesus. We remain in him through prayer and walking in faith. In fact, Jesus says, if we remain in him, we can ask "whatever you wish" and it will be done. This is a powerful declaration that shows vibrant relationship Jesus seeks with his disciples that is fused and regulated through a continual walk of faith and communication with God. God desires a relationship with us...to be our "friend." Also, it shows the importance of obedience. The words of Jesus are to remain in us. Many today claim to love Jesus and be his disciple, but refuse to submit their lives to his authority and commands. They want to claim "salvation" and moral authority with the label Christian, but do not want to obey his desires when it comes to issues like drunkenness, divorce, sexual immorality, honesty, integrity, etc. A disciple should not try to strain out love for Jesus with obedience to Jesus. Jesus clearly teaches that the two are one. if you love him, you will obey him. More specifically, Jesus points to a key command related to "love one another as I have loved you." The most impoartant command Christ gives us is that Christians love one another sacrificially. If we are not willing to humble ourselves before one another and show kindness and respect to each other on this board, we are not following the most basic command of Jesus that he claims is central to being one of his disciples. Just some food for thought.

Finally, the good news here is that our "fruit" will naturally take place. We do not have to "work" to create the fruit God desires. If we trust in Jesus and follow his word, our lives will naturally produce the fruit God seeks. Jesus says, "You WILL produce fruit, fruit that will last." This is not a conditional statement. It is a statement of fact. Those who are connected to Christ and allow his words to guide their lives WILL produce the fruit God seeks (Perhaps in the comments we can discuss the nature of this fruit).

THE GARDNER
Finally, God is declared to be the gardener. The gardener does two things: 1) prunes the branches and 2) gathers the dead branches to be burned. In order to understand this illustration, it is important to understand the process of cultivating a vineyard. Grape-producing vines do two things 1) they expand rapidly 2) they produce grapes. Farmers learned early on that based on the way they prune their vines, they can maximize the grape-producing branches. First, the gardener will trim back the dead branches from the stump of the vine prior to the growing season. These branches would be gathered and burned to prevent from interfering with the new growth. Next, when the vine began to grow, the gardener would regularly trim back the vine so that rather than the sap and the energy of the vine being used to expand its territory, that focus could be directed to the fruit-producing branches. This would cause the vine to yield the maximum amount of produce.

The point here is that God is at work in his people's lives. If you are walking in faith and prayer in Christ and seeking to be obedient to his teaching, God promises to be at work in your life to make your life fruitful. God DESIRES you to live a fruitful life, just like a farmer desires his vines to produce a LOT of grapes. God is not distant, waiting for us to produce for him. God is at work in us and through us, shaping our circumstances and situations to make us more like Jesus Christ. How encouraging! What if that challenge you are currently facing is not a bad situation, but one in which God has pruned so that your energy can be focused on something where you can be more fruitful for him!? We all get frustrated when our plans fail and our expectations are not met. Yet this verse gives us encouragement that it is very likely that these obstacles are a means by which God can direct our energy toward the things that will end in our greatest good and most fruitful lives. This is part of what it means to "trust" and believe that God truly does care and is working all things for the good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose!

 

[face2face]

Thanks Wormwood for the exhortation.

Have you considered the other reading of John 15:2?

If we are to understand "bear fruit" to refer to converts, "lift up" rather than "takeaway" could be a better fit? (Matthew 12:12). This may reference the idea of a gardener lifting up a struggling plant...

Mistakenly, the word "purges" has often been taken to signify pruning. The word means "cleanse" (cp. Heb.10:2 same word). Here it alludes to the common practice of scrubbing the vine stems with soap and water in order to rid them of a damaging fungus which is still done to this day. Hence Jeremiah with reference to the "strange vine" of Israel which produced vile fruits:

Jer 2:21 I planted you in the land like a special vine of the very best stock. Why in the world have you turned into something like a wild vine that produces rotten, foul-smelling grapes? 2:22 You can try to wash away your guilt with a strong detergent. You can use as much soap as you want. But the stain of your guilt is still there for me to see,” says the Lord God.

Jesus had already applied this process to his disciples, and would continue to do so: "Now you are clean (John 13:10) because of the word which I have spoken to you." He was surely alluding to an instruction in the Law of Moses that newly-planted "trees for food" were to be reckoned as "uncircumcised" and the fruit not to be eaten during the first three years.

The Produce of Fruit Trees

Lev 19:23 “ ‘When you enter the land and plant any fruit tree, you must consider its fruit to be forbidden. Three years it will be forbidden to you; it must not be eaten. 19:24 In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, praise offerings to the Lord. 19:25 Then in the fifth year you may eat its fruit to add its produce to your harvest. I am the Lord your God.

Their three years of discipleship were now more than expired. Soon there would be fruit in plenty-"holy to praise the Lord withal"-but only through the vigorous life of Christ in them: "Abide ye in me, and I (will abide) in you (cp.John 15:7 contrast John 5:38).

John 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you.
John 5:38 nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.

Failure to learn this lesson has meant tragedy for many. "Blessed is anyone who takes no offense at me.” (Matt 11:5).

In times of spiritual stress, the very worst thing a believer can do is to loosen his connection with the body of Christ which makes him a branch of the True Vine.

 

[Wormwood]

face2face,

Thanks for your response.

If we are to understand "bear fruit" to refer to converts, "lift up" rather than "takeaway" could be a better fit? (Matthew 12:12). This may reference the idea of a gardener lifting up a struggling plant...

Personally, I dont see the "fruit" here as referring to converts (although that may be a part of it, I dont think its primarily what Jesus has in mind). John the Baptist speaks of fruit as act reflecting true repentance, Paul refers to fruit as qualities of the Spirit in a person's life, the author of Hebrews speaks of fruit as the result of a disciplined lifestyle. I think all these could apply. However, the primary fruit I think Jesus is referring to is the product of a life lived in close communion with God. Specifically, Jesus references answered prayer. "Ask whatever you wish and it will be given to you. This is to my Father's glory that you produce much fruit, fruit that will last." So, I think fruit here is primarily about a life that reflects a close walk with God that includes all the above....a changed life, a different character, joy, a powerful prayer life, and perhaps even impacting others so they turn to the Lord...etc.

Jer 2:21 I planted you in the land like a special vine of the very best stock. Why in the world have you turned into something like a wild vine that produces rotten, foul-smelling grapes? 2:22 You can try to wash away your guilt with a strong detergent. You can use as much soap as you want. But the stain of your guilt is still there for me to see,” says the Lord God.

This is a great verse. Thanks for mentioning it. Right on target.

Jesus had already applied this process to his disciples, and would continue to do so: "Now you are clean (John 13:10) because of the word which I have spoken to you." He was surely alluding to an instruction in the Law of Moses that newly-planted "trees for food" were to be reckoned as "uncircumcised" and the fruit not to be eaten during the first three years.

Hmmm, this is a new one for me. Not sure I buy into that. I never heard of an "uncircumcised" tree or any suggestion that Jesus referring to his words making his disciples as clean = they were like a tree that couldn't produce edible fruit because it was too immature. I just think Jesus is simply saying, "Your feet were dirty so I washed them and served you as an example. However, you aren't dirty where it matters because you have accepted my word and that is really what indicates if someone is truly clean or not."

Otherwise, I guess we would have to conclude that a new convert cannot produce meaningful fruit to God...at least not for the first three years. Right?

In times of spiritual stress, the very worst thing a believer can do is to loosen his connection with the body of Christ which makes him a branch of the True Vine.

Amen. The context here is that Jesus is warning his disciples that hard times are coming and they will be alone. He says explicitly in 16:1: "All this I have told you so you will not go astray." Jesus wants them to not be stunned when they face great difficulty, persecution and even death. He wants them to endure and hold on to him when circumstances would push them to distance themselves from him for self-preservation. True life is only found in connection with Christ and we need to make sure we remain near to him in a world that is continually trying to pull us away.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

[face2face]

face2face,

Hmmm, this is a new one for me. Not sure I buy into that. I never heard of an "uncircumcised" tree or any suggestion that Jesus referring to his words making his disciples as clean = they were like a tree that couldn't produce edible fruit because it was too immature. I just think Jesus is simply saying, "Your feet were dirty so I washed them and served you as an example. However, you aren't dirty where it matters because you have accepted my word and that is really what indicates if someone is truly clean or not."

Otherwise, I guess we would have to conclude that a new convert cannot produce meaningful fruit to God...at least not for the first three years. Right?

Yes. The OP and lessons contained certainly speak to Lev 19:23 and the wonderful lessons of discipleship hidden there. Themes of fruit, pruning, restraining the our nature to allow spiritual fruits to grow and so on are all in view.

The Law required that for three years the blossoms would be "nipped off" the tree to prevent it bearing fruit, and only in the fourth year the fruit was permitted to develop.

"you shall regard its fruit as forbidden" Rather, “You shall trim its fruit in the manner of a foreskin.” The syntax is unusual. Literally, this clause would read: “You shall trim its foreskin as foreskin (va-ʿaraltem ʾet ʿorlato). Here, we have a cognate accusative, that is, the verb and the object derive from the same root. Later on in the passage we find the masculine plural noun ʿarelim, “in a state of uncircumcision.” Torah Commentary on the Original Hebrew

In a figurative sense, circumcision is a cutting off of flesh, a restraining of its natural inclinations to allow the principles of discipleship to flourish, something which is a constant struggle for us all. Jesus said his baptism (ultimate circumcision) was a constant agony and he could not rest until he fulfilled his baptism in life and in death. (Luke 12:50)

Spiritually speaking this process of cutting off and denying oneself should start in childhood but for most, like me, it began when I was 23 and it wasn't until I practiced the "cutting off" over some years that I was shown the type of spiritual mature fruit which we know is pleasing to the Lord (Col. 2:11).

If we expand the analogy of pruning (circumcising) the tree over a period of time we can see how the process of cutting off until a time of fruitfullness results eventually in a life presented to God... for even the true Israelites were/are considered as "trees of righteousness" (Isa. 60:21) who had their share of pruning throughout the years (more still to come). It is said that even nature shows that it is not good to let fruit ripen upon a young tree. This would be like asking a new believer to perform the tasks of a seasoned lay preacher...without training and much pruning this will only cause unnecessary stress on the tree.

In reading John 15 with Lev 19 in view the record starts to come alive.

“I am the rtrue vine, and my Father is sthe vinedresser. 2 tEvery branch in me that does not bear fruit uhe takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, vthat it may bear more fruit.

It is comforting to know that the vine dresser worked the true vine as discerningly as he works its branches for even the Son learned obedience by the things which he suffered.

I guess we could take the spiritual maturity seen in your post and suggest this depth could not be attained by a newly baptised believer...our Heavenly Father has taken the plant (Wormwood) and as Paul said grafted something wild onto the Christ tree and tendered to its growth over periods of time Lev 19 1-5 years)...washing it with the Word (Eph 5:26)

John is teaching us a process is at work in our lives if we allow the Fathers hands to cut away its dead wood.

What does the cutting and cleansing?

John 15:3 Already wyou are clean xbecause of the word that I have spoken to you. (no Exod 6:12 ESV here)

In the Masters service
F2F John 15:8

 

[Wormwood]

Yes. The OP and lessons contained certainly speak to Lev 19:23 and the wonderful lessons of discipleship hidden there. Themes of fruit, pruning, restraining the our nature to allow spiritual fruits to grow and so on are all in view.

Can you prove this? Jesus says nothing of a 3 year fruitless period. Rather, Jesus is speaking of tending vines and the pruning process that increased fruitfulness by prohibiting vine expansion so the sap of the vine could be focused on producing more grape clusters. It seems to me like a simple illustration and you are making connections that are not readily apparent. I dont think Jesus is saying that there is a three-year maturing process in every new believers life before they can start to produce fruit. It seems to me that the focus is on connection with Jesus as a means of producing fruit in one's life and stretching the simple metaphor too far starts to allegorize the text to create meanings that are drawn more from the reader than from the actual text.

I guess we could take the spiritual maturity seen in your post and suggest this depth could not be attained by a newly baptised believer...our Heavenly Father has taken the plant (Wormwood) and as Paul said grafted something wild onto the Christ tree and tendered to its growth over periods of time Lev 19 1-5 years)...washing it with the Word (Eph 5:26)

I am not following you here. I believe a new believer should start to produce fruit immediately. If a person is connected to Christ, they WILL produce fruit, Jesus said. He didn't say, "After three years, they will produce fruit." No, the simple point here is that if someone turns away from Jesus, their life can produce no fruit to God. The context of this passage is persecution and Jesus is trying to prepare his disciples and urging them to "remain" in him. This is not a formula for conversion, but a promise of a fruitful or fruitless life if a person, in the midst of trials, fails to remain in Jesus. Again, I think stretching this illustration too far is to miss the simple point being conveyed.

I agree with you that God prunes our lives so that we can be fruitful. God is not distant and uninvolved. He is active in our lives and wants those who are connected to Christ to grow daily in the image of Christ.

Thanks again for responding.

 

[mjrhealth]

I am not following you here. I believe a new believer should start to produce fruit immediately. If a person is connected to Christ, they WILL produce fruit, Jesus said. He didn't say, "After three years, they will produce fruit

How long was Moses in the desert before God used Him, At what age did Jesus start His mission?? Everything is in His time not ours.

 

[face2face]

Can you prove this?

The actual work of a Vinedresser who cleans and prunes the vine can be "likened" to cutting the foreskin or nipping the buds off a fruit tree to encourage spiritual growth. The principle is removing something (fleshly) in ones life to increase spiritual fruitfulness.

Jesus says nothing of a 3 year fruitless period.

I may not be explaining myself clearly enough or you may be interpreting my words too literal. We both agree the theme of Vinedresser and Vine relates to God's disciplining His children to increase good works which honour Him. Those who desire His correction in doing what is right are given further increase “more and more” while those who resist Him or turn away, are in danger of being discarded and perish forever. Although repentance is always possible.

Rather, Jesus is speaking of tending vines and the pruning process that increased fruitfulness by prohibiting vine expansion so the sap of the vine could be focused on producing more grape clusters. It seems to me like a simple illustration and you are making connections that are not readily apparent.

The connections are there in principle - the Spirit of Lev 19; John 15: Jer 2; Isa 5 and so on are all expressions of the same teaching. That is the Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword....it cuts and divides things in ones life, often light from darkness, good and evil, bone from marrow etc. Israel were given many symbols to prove such lessons, such as the Vine, an Olive Tree or Circumcision and many others to name a few.

Behind the Word of God is found many principles that intertwine and echoed throughout the Word... they may not be easy to find and not readily available, may take years to uncover. I mean how can Moses use the idea of circumcision in relation to a fruit tree? or the words which come from his lips as being uncircumcised? Does God see the action of cutting fleshly things from a believers life in similar fashion to circumcision & pruning?
Which leads us to your next point....

I don’t think Jesus is saying that there is a three-year maturing process in every new believers life before they can start to produce fruit. It seems to me that the focus is on connection with Jesus as a means of producing fruit in one's life and stretching the simple metaphor too far starts to allegorize the text to create meanings that are drawn more from the reader than from the actual text.

Too literal Wormwood.

There is a process (time irrelevant) of learning which every believer must go through before they can produce spiritual fruit to the honour and glory of God.

Can you think of some examples?

The Apostle Paul in the wilderness

Israel in the wilderness

Remember what we might deem a fruit might not be a fruit in Gods eyes.

You and I in the wilderness

The fruits of character can take time — Gods inmost desire is to produce in us the fruits (the virtues, the character traits) which make up Christian character and is somthing He is willing to wait many years to produce through deep dark trials if need be.

The other fruits are seen in our service — which can require us to battle temptation and conquer sin and mature in the knowlegde of Christ all of which takes time with many setbacks along the way.

The Bible is full of people whose journey from darkness to light took time (maybe even a period of fruitlessness before their season arrived.

John 15:1-2 encapsulates many peoples all growing at different rates in all circumstances of life. I think its an important lesson for disciples to know that going from milk to meat in understanding takes time and the fruits of a disciple early in their walk by no means defines their overall worth to God for Paul persecuted the body of Christ before he understood it and even then he required 18 months of training before he could bare Gospel fruit in others.

I am not following you here. I believe a new believer should start to produce fruit immediately.
If a person is connected to Christ, they WILL produce fruit, Jesus said. He didn't say, "After three years, they will produce fruit." No, the simple point here is that if someone turns away from Jesus, their life can produce no fruit to God. The context of this passage is persecution and Jesus is trying to prepare his disciples and urging them to "remain" in him. This is not a formula for conversion, but a promise of a fruitful or fruitless life if a person, in the midst of trials, fails to remain in Jesus. Again, I think stretching this illustration too far is to miss the simple point being conveyed.

I do appreciate what you are saying but the reality like the literal tree “which is planted by streams of water, ONLY yields its fruit in its season” and Jeremiah picks up on the same theme which is what John 15 is also relaying.

17:7 My blessing is on those people who trust in me,
who put their confidence in me.
17:8 They will be like a tree planted near a stream
whose roots spread out toward the water.

We know this process alone takes time – years in fact in keeping with Lev 19 and the planting of those saplings.

It has nothing to fear when the heat comes. (Trial and suffering)
Its leaves are always green.
It has no need to be concerned in a year of drought.
It does not stop bearing fruit.

From season to season the fruit increase because we place our trust and confidence in God. But who is like this tree but Christ himself?
Hence the pruning is required and times of unfruitfulness are expected.

I agree with you that God prunes our lives so that we can be fruitful. God is not distant and uninvolved. He is active in our lives and wants those who are connected to Christ to grow daily in the image of Christ.

Thanks again for responding.

Totally agree.
Enjoying the thead thank you.
In the Masters service
F2F

 

[Wormwood]

I may not be explaining myself clearly enough or you may be interpreting my words too literal. We both agree the theme of Vinedresser and Vine relates to God's disciplining His children to increase good works which honour Him. Those who desire His correction in doing what is right are given further increase “more and more” while those who resist Him or turn away, are in danger of being discarded and perish forever. Although repentance is always possible.

Okay, I can agree with that.

Too literal Wormwood.
There is a process (time irrelevant) of learning which every believer must go through before they can produce spiritual fruit to the honour and glory of God.

Ok, I was likely misunderstanding you to mean there was an exact 1 to 1 relation. I can accept there is a correlation between the two.

I do appreciate what you are saying but the reality like the literal tree “which is planted by streams of water, ONLY yields its fruit in its season” and Jeremiah picks up on the same theme which is what John 15 is also relaying.

I think the agricultural references are sufficient in themselves. What I mean is, I think most of Jesus' listeners would have been able to relate to his metaphor simply through their agricultural experience without needing to consult other OT agricultural references as a backdrop. I think the relationship you are seeing is that all of these stories refer to agricultural experiences common to the crops and practices in the ancient Near East. So, yes, I agree that there can be some cross over to what we see in the OT, but I think most of that is in relationship to the commonality of farming practices, rather than some kind of clear prophetic reference independent of agriculture.

We know this process alone takes time – years in fact in keeping with Lev 19 and the planting of those saplings.

This is where I disagree. I think Jesus is referring to fruit in relationship to sticking with him in suffering rather than a process of discipleship an maturity. I have seen many people come to Christ and display immediate fruit of repentance, humility, love, kindness, prayerfulness and joy. Jesus specifically refers to answered prayer as one of the "fruits" to which he is referencing. While certainly a person can be more fruitful as they mature, I think you are drawing on an unclear relationship with Leviticus to go a little further than the text itself allows.

God bless

 

[face2face]

I think the agricultural references are sufficient in themselves. What I mean is, I think most of Jesus' listeners would have been able to relate to his metaphor simply through their agricultural experience without needing to consult other OT agricultural references as a backdrop. I think the relationship you are seeing is that all of these stories refer to agricultural experiences common to the crops and practices in the ancient Near East. So, yes, I agree that there can be some cross over to what we see in the OT, but I think most of that is in relationship to the commonality of farming practices, rather than some kind of clear prophetic reference independent of agriculture.

I agree in principle, however there are clear references which relate to this subject such as Luke 13.

Jesus Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

Luke 13: 6 And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’ ”

Can you see Christ drawing back to Lev 19?

Not even a bud to nip off "nothing!"

Three years?

He (God) only asked for one year! God gave them 37 years!! And for a further 37 years that tree stood there, and God's long suffering waited, just waited for the day when He could encourage them to bring forth more fruit.

But it didn't happen did it! Those years went and down came the tree! And yet the Dresser appealed not only for time for it to produce fruit, but he was prepared to fertilise it!

For this reason Wormwood your next point is worth a relook.

This is where I disagree. I think Jesus is referring to fruit in relationship to sticking with him in suffering rather than a process of discipleship and maturity.

Aren't they all related characteristics of a disciple?

I have seen many people come to Christ and display immediate fruit of repentance, humility, love, kindness, prayerfulness and joy.

I also but that does not change the principles and lessons found in true discipleship

Jesus specifically refers to answered prayer as one of the "fruits" to which he is referencing. While certainly a person can be more fruitful as they mature, I think you are drawing on an unclear relationship with Leviticus to go a little further than the text itself allows.

God bless

Allow me to draw further back from John 15, Luke 13 & Lev 19

If you read Deuteronomy we find the fruits are brought forth by the moon.

Deuteronomy.33:14 "And for the precious fruits [brought forth] by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,"

That of course is speaking of the cycle of the seasons. The word "moon" in the Hebrew does duty for the word "months". It's all about seasons. And there were those there who thought they knew all about seasons! It was TIME to produce fruit! But the Dresser knew that notwithstanding the blessings of sun, moon, rain and dry, there was something required of MAN!

The Vinedresser was prepared to FERTILISE the ground! So the bringing forth of good fruit requires (even in agriculture today) the co-operation of God and man!!

Look at Hosea.10:12; "Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you."

Wormwood, can you see the process? Does this not sit behind the appeal of Christ in John 15? We cannot presume instantaneous fruits though the modern christian in their well-doing is hopeful, this is the case, but the reality can be something different.

There is a PRINCIPLE here as there is in all God's Word.

The principle is that without the RAIN of RIGHTEOUSNESS nothing will grow!

Is God showering this rain on all christians near and far?

NO!

For what is the good of the rain of righteousness on UNTILLED soil!!? unprepared ground? The Bible uses these metaphors to explain very important behaviours such as careful reading of the Word, Prayer, and Denying ourselves for others.

There is a whole CYCLE of interactions being spoken of by Paul when he says we can plant and water but God gives the increase. BUT WHAT IF NOBODY PLANTS OR WATERS!?
1 Corinthians 3
3:6 I planted,8 Apollos watered, but God caused it to grow. 3:7 So neither the one who plants counts for anything,9 nor the one who waters, but God who causes the growth. 3:8 The one who plants and the one who waters work as one,10 but each will receive his reward according to his work. 3:9 We are coworkers belonging to God.11 You are God’s field, God’s building.

Now if we do not plough and break up the fallow ground the former and latter rains will be of no use! What were the former and latter rains?

James.5:7 5:7 So be patient, brothers and sisters,5 until the Lord’s return.6 Think of how the farmer waits7 for the precious fruit of the ground and is patient8 for it until it receives the early and late rains. 5:8 You also be patient and strengthen your hearts, for the Lord’s return is near.

Nothing easy here Wormwood - no instant gratification of fruitfulness - no presumption of instant fruits - so it is for the Christian who labours in patience well doing.

For the Christian we must ask - Will we bear fruit?!

And like the barren olive tree... the Lord would have paused long and sorrowfully before going on... "and if not..." What were the fruits?

Listen to Peter..

2Pet.1;
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again a process.

We can finish the scenario for ourselves! If we bear fruit, look at what's ahead of us!!

There is no doubt about what will happen if we don't!

"after that you shall cut it down"


The Dresser of the Vineyard was not going to cut it down!! He was making no threats! That was not his mission!

The Romans would see to that!

 

[Wormwood]

Can you see Christ drawing back to Lev 19?

Im not trying to be difficult, but no. Here is why...

First, the prohibition in Lev. 19 had to do with planting new fruit trees in the land directly after eradicating the Canaanites. This command is similar to some of the commands when the Israelites entered the land to devote the the goods of the conquered to destruction. The focus here is that God was purging the land due to the evil of the Canaanites. In my view, these commands reinforced this idea and prevented the Israelites from seeing this invasion as a means of getting rich off the backs of the conquered. It was judgment at work, not greed.

The Israelites did not continue this practice after the immediate conquest of the land. The context here is how to deal with slaves, establishing themselves in the new land and not imitating the wicked idolatry of those in the land. There is nothing here that suggests this was an ongoing practice in Israel and that the Israelites in Jesus' day considered the fruit of their trees for the first three years as "forbidden."

Also, the parable you mention would not make sense with this view you have assigned to it. Why would there be a frustration of the inability to acquire fruit for the first three years if such fruit was considered "forbidden" anyway? The fact that the owner is upset about not being able to collect fruit suggests that it was lawful and expected to have fruit long before the three year mark was reached!

I also but that does not change the principles and lessons found in true discipleship

But this is exactly my point. You have not shown any three year principles of discipleship. You have pointed to one Leviticus passage about planting trees in the newly conquered land of Canaan as your proof text and a parable about a fruitless tree that the owner was ready to cut down after three years. If there is a common thread between these two passages, it is the message of the severity and finality of God's judgment on fruitless people. Remember, John 15 indicates that all those who are connected to Jesus (disciples) will produce fruit. If a person is fruitless, it is because they are not connected to Jesus (not a disciple). In my opinion, there is no such thing as a fruitless disciple. Disciples are not burned...like fruitless, unconnected branches. Therefore I see no principle of a three year period of little or no fruit expected in a disciples life taught anywhere in the NT. The Leviticus passage is not a lesson on true discipleship. If anything, it is a lesson on judgement and purging the land of evil.

Wormwood, can you see the process? Does this not sit behind the appeal of Christ in John 15? We cannot presume instantaneous fruits though the modern christian in their well-doing is hopeful, this is the case, but the reality can be something different.
There is a PRINCIPLE here as there is in all God's Word.
The principle is that without the RAIN of RIGHTEOUSNESS nothing will grow!
Is God showering this rain on all christians near and far?
NO!
For what is the good of the rain of righteousness on UNTILLED soil!!? unprepared ground? The Bible uses these metaphors to explain very important behaviours such as careful reading of the Word, Prayer, and Denying ourselves for others.

f2f, I just think my hermeneutics are very different from your own. I do not see the Bible as a puzzle to figure out or a series of allegories to which we are to assign meaning. I interpret passages by their immediate context. Certainly there are types and shadows in the OT, but I believe we need to allow the inspired authors to make these connections rather than just randomly assigning our own allegorical insertions while connecting random verses together because they happen to use 3 years. I mean, for three years, there was no war between Aram and Israel. Is that a lesson in discipleship? Daniel was trained in Babylon for three years. Is this a lesson in discipleship? Isaiah walked around naked for three years? Is this a lesson in discipleship?

The clear answer (at least in my mind) is no. The fact is, numbers had meaning for the Hebrews. The number 7 meant completion, the number 10 perfection, similar also was the number 12. Etc. Unlike westerners who merely count numbers, Israelites weighted numbers. So, the consistency with the number 3 here likely has more to do with a theme of trial than a model for discipleship. Jonah was in the fish 3 days and nights. Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Jesus ministered three and a half years. The number 3 and a half is used numerous times in Revelation in reference to persecution of believers. Daniel was trained and tested 3 years in as a captive in Babylon. Elijah caused it not to rain 3 and a half years due to Israel's idolatry. Paul was in the desert 3 years. etc.

More importantly, I strongly disagree with your statement, "Is God sending his rain on all Christians near and far? NO!" I find such a statement very troubling. A "Christian" is one who has been purchased by the blood of Jesus. A Christian is one for whom God has given everything that they might be called his child. To suggest their lack of fruit is a result of God not showering righteousness on them is a serious error. Jesus shed his blood for them, how can you say God is not showering his righteousness on them? If they are Christ's, God HAS showered rightesousness on them for God's people are righteous. Christ's blood is showered on them and they are temples of the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a Christian who has not been showered with righteousness! As Paul says so beautifully, “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?” (Romans 8:32, NIV84)

The question you are dealing with is the issue of sanctification. Why are some Christians "carnal" and do not thrive spiritually? The reason some Christians do not produce a great deal of Spiritual fruit, is not because God is withholding righteousness or grace from them. The reason is because they are not responding to that grace. This is irrespective of years. I have seen Christians who have been believers for 1 year who produce a great abundance of fruit and I have seen Christians who have believed for 20 years who are very carnal. There is no 3 year sweet spot for the believer to start producing fruit. While certainly a person should produce more fruit as they age, this is not always the case. Yet, my point is simply that the fault is not God's for failing to rain down righteousness. The fault is the individual for not walking in faith or keeping "in step with the Spirit." This is why Jesus warns his disciples to stay close and connected to him. We read in Hebrews of the dangers of "drifting away." Slowly a person can begin to drift...stop praying, stop reading the Word, stop fellowshipping with other believers and they can ultimately fall away. Again, this is not due to God not raining his love or righteousness on them. Its due to them not allowing the Word to continue to grow and take root in their hearts.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion thus far. I better get to bed!

 

[bbyrd009]

i am finding the Tree analogy of a person meaningful, and "three years" reflected in other passages, personally. I wouldn't consider it an absolute, or seek to make a law about it, but it surely is relevant?

 

[face2face]

Im not trying to be difficult, but no. Here is why...

First, the prohibition in Lev. 19 had to do with planting new fruit trees in the land directly after eradicating the Canaanites. This command is similar to some of the commands when the Israelites entered the land to devote the the goods of the conquered to destruction. The focus here is that God was purging the land due to the evil of the Canaanites. In my view, these commands reinforced this idea and prevented the Israelites from seeing this invasion as a means of getting rich off the backs of the conquered. It was judgment at work, not greed.

The Israelites did not continue this practice after the immediate conquest of the land. The context here is how to deal with slaves, establishing themselves in the new land and not imitating the wicked idolatry of those in the land. There is nothing here that suggests this was an ongoing practice in Israel and that the Israelites in Jesus' day considered the fruit of their trees for the first three years as "forbidden."

Lev 19 contains spiritual lessons beyond prohibition.

Is not circumcision the token of the covenant? How does covenant language relate to a literal tree?
Was the fruit NOT acceptable to God UNTIL after it had been treated this way?
Can you see the similarities in coming to Christ through baptism?
Are we not circumcised in heart? For the purpose of bringing forth fruits in due season?

Also, the parable you mention would not make sense with this view you have assigned to it. Why would there be a frustration of the inability to acquire fruit for the first three years if such fruit was considered "forbidden" anyway? The fact that the owner is upset about not being able to collect fruit suggests that it was lawful and expected to have fruit long before the three year mark was reached!

Correct "What more could I do to my vineyard that I have not done?” Failing Lev 19 in principle – revealing the failure of man and not God from Isa 5.
You see nothing to circumcise as you rightly say, but one day their stony heart will be replaced. Ezek 36:26

But this is exactly my point. You have not shown any three year principles of discipleship. You have pointed to one Leviticus passage about planting trees in the newly conquered land of Canaan as your proof text and a parable about a fruitless tree that the owner was ready to cut down after three years. If there is a common thread between these two passages, it is the message of the severity and finality of God's judgment on fruitless people. Remember, John 15 indicates that all those who are connected to Jesus (disciples) will produce fruit. If a person is fruitless, it is because they are not connected to Jesus (not a disciple). In my opinion, there is no such thing as a fruitless disciple. Disciples are not burned...like fruitless, unconnected branches. Therefore I see no principle of a three year period of little or no fruit expected in a disciples life taught anywhere in the NT. The Leviticus passage is not a lesson on true discipleship. If anything, it is a lesson on judgement and purging the land of evil.

Three years is figurative timeframe in a disciples life before and after conversion, to till the ground, remove the stones, add the fertilizer and wait for the rains.

Unfortunately your hermeneutics has confined you to an untenable position.

Continuing your theme of Vinedresser and vine we find the firstfuits having been circumcised were presented to God in the fourth year, and rendered praise to Him. The lesson being taught Israel is very clear and echoes that which Jesus taught his disciples often. God’s Word is the cutting agent which results in firstfruit disciples...

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 14:5 and no lie was found on their lips; they are blameless.

These are they who practiced the principles of circumcision cutting away sensuality and sinful desire from their lives though failing at times...until such time as they became His first fruits and provided Him fruits in due season.

It was not until the fifth year they could produce fruits for consumption teaching them the reward for denying themselves is great and serving God first before self is the all encompassing lesson.

Beautiful really.

f2f, I just think my hermeneutics are very different from your own. I do not see the Bible as a puzzle to figure out or a series of allegories to which we are to assign meaning. I interpret passages by their immediate context. Certainly there are types and shadows in the OT, but I believe we need to allow the inspired authors to make these connections rather than just randomly assigning our own allegorical insertions while connecting random verses together because they happen to use 3 years. I mean, for three years, there was no war between Aram and Israel.

What does war between Aram & Israel have to do with the Vinedresser instructing his people how to plant, circumcise fruit and present harvested trees to the Lord?
You would be better saying the 3 years of Luke 13 is a coincidence and that Lev 19 and the lesson therein have nothing to do with a barren olive tree which has failed to produce fruit for three years.

More importantly, I strongly disagree with your statement, "Is God sending his rain on all Christians near and far? NO!" I find such a statement very troubling. A "Christian" is one who has been purchased by the blood of Jesus. A Christian is one for whom God has given everything that they might be called his child. To suggest their lack of fruit is a result of God not showering righteousness on them is a serious error. Jesus shed his blood for them, how can you say God is not showering his righteousness on them? If they are Christ's, God HAS showered rightesousness on them for God's people are righteous. Christ's blood is showered on them and they are temples of the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a Christian who has not been showered with righteousness! As Paul says so beautifully, “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?” (Romans 8:32, NIV84)

"Is God sending his rain on all Christians near and far? NO!"

To also mean, is God tilling and fertillizing the ground of ever Christian and applying His precious rain to them? NO!

The draught of Amos 8:11 has happened nationally and individually. There are times when God hides his face from us because of sin and times when he withdraws totally from them because of their evil deeds.

Would God continue to send His precious rain on those who are waterless clouds, who are carried along by the winds (of doctrine); autumn trees without fruit—twice dead, uprooted; wild sea waves, spewing out the foam of their shame; wayward stars for whom the utter depths of eternal darkness have been.

However...

We are encouraged to embrace the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings eternal life.1:22 And have mercy on those who waver; 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God, hating even the clothes stained by the flesh.

Yes the rain of God's righteousness is an ever flowing stream toward those who desire it and upon those who practice evil and preach lies, they are empty of Gods rain and only good for removing from the vine and burned.

The question you are dealing with is the issue of sanctification. Why are some Christians "carnal" and do not thrive spiritually? The reason some Christians do not produce a great deal of Spiritual fruit, is not because God is withholding righteousness or grace from them. The reason is because they are not responding to that grace.

Agreed. A believer must learn to prepare the ground of their minds and allow the Word of God to be planted and drink in the rain which comes often upon it.
But for those of Heb 6:6 who produce thorns and thistles they will be burned and water ultimately denied. King Saul is a case in point where God refused to speak (rain upon) with him totally and completely.

This is irrespective of years. I have seen Christians who have been believers for 1 year who produce a great abundance of fruit and I have seen Christians who have believed for 20 years who are very carnal. There is no 3 year sweet spot for the believer to start producing fruit. While certainly a person should produce more fruit as they age, this is not always the case. Yet, my point is simply that the fault is not God's for failing to rain down righteousness. The fault is the individual for not walking in faith or keeping "in step with the Spirit." This is why Jesus warns his disciples to stay close and connected to him. We read in Hebrews of the dangers of "drifting away." Slowly a person can begin to drift...stop praying, stop reading the Word, stop fellowshipping with other believers and they can ultimately fall away. Again, this is not due to God not raining his love or righteousness on them. Its due to them not allowing the Word to continue to grow and take root in their hearts.

Throughout this response you continue to be fixated on this 3 year period as though you have inferred a literal timeframe in which a believer prepares in becoming fruitful.

If you read over my comments you will see discipleship is different for everyone but the principles and steps in producing fruits remains the same. The analogy of the Vinedresser and true vine have proven this many times and in many people.

I am looking forward to hearing how we remain in Jesus. I have read over John 15 to see what clues John / Jesus provide us in abiding in him.

God bless
F2F

 

[Wormwood]

I dont have much time to respond because it's late. Just wanted to make a few brief comments and come back to this later. Thanks again for the conversation.

I dont see anything wrong with your views. I just think they are a bit of a stretch. I dont think that is what Lev. 19 is teaching. Its a passage on judgment, not discipleship. I agree that we are called to respond to grace and make our hearts right so the seed of the Word can grow in us. However, I think this happens as long as we are believers. I dont this is primarily something that happens in the first 3 years. Again, I just think you are connecting a lot of dots that dont really have any connection, other than there is gardening involved and 3 year time spans. Again, one is a judgment passage speaking about how the fruit of the wicked Canaanite land was off limits as the land was being purged of evil, and the other is about these disciples staying connected to Christ in the midst of the upcoming trials during Christ's crucifixion and the persecution they will face afterwards in his absence. Nothing is even mentioned here of 3 years.

The draught of Amos 8:11 has happened nationally and individually. There are times when God hides his face from us because of sin and times when he withdraws totally from them because of their evil deeds.
Would God continue to send His precious rain on those who are waterless clouds, who are carried along by the winds (of doctrine); autumn trees without fruit—twice dead, uprooted; wild sea waves, spewing out the foam of their shame; wayward stars for whom the utter depths of eternal darkness have been.

Again, you are smashing together a lot of verses here that have radically different contexts. 1. God's judgment on the people in the days of Amos was related to unbelief and idol worship. I dont know how you can even relate the plagues and invasions God used to kill unbelieving Israelites with God's discipline on believers who are engaged in sinful behaviors. 2. The passage you quote about "twice dead" people is speaking about false teachers who are leading Christians astray. Again, neither passage has anything to do with discipleship or sanctification. They are dealing with the destruction of the unbelieving, not the discipline or pruning God does in the life of a believer.

Anyway, gotta get to bed. Be blessed.

 

[face2face]

I dont think that is what Lev. 19 is teaching. It's a passage on judgment, not discipleship.

I don't wish to repeat myself or go around in circles but to merely suggest this passage is about judgement is to ignore the beautiful lessons being taught.

Lev 19:23 “ ‘When you enter the land and plant any fruit tree,you must consider its fruit to be forbidden41.

41 tn Heb “you shall circumcise its fruit [as] its foreskin,” taking the fruit to be that which is to be removed and, therefore, forbidden. Since the fruit is uncircumcised it is forbidden

Clearly God is teaching His people via the agricultural function a "process of sanctification" which is very near the same message of John and how he records discipleship.

This commentary shines another light on the text by introducing the restriction of cutting the buds.


"prohibit eating the fruit of trees for the first three years after their planting. The “foreskin” of the tree must be left on it for the first three years. In this time, the fruit is not to be eaten and the tree is not to be pruned. During this time, the tree is “unfruitful” because it is “uncircumcised.” In the fourth year, the fruit is set aside for God, and only in the fifth year may Israel eat of it. The pruning of fruit trees and circumcision, the rite by which a male becomes a member of the covenant community, are related in this text" DIVINE PRESENCE AND COMMUNITY
A Commentary on the Book of Leviticus