Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

[bbyrd009]

fwiw we may not end up disagreeing at all, but just getting a different perception of "woman fleeing into the wilderness,"
which is not imo a good thing either, at least quite possibly.
People might "leave" bc God directs them to, but "flee" suggests a different concept imo. Ppl flee when no one is chasing them, too, etc

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness

11 In the day that thy walls are to be built

seem to indicate two different ideas here, if

the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings

does not; i mean, how can you make the Woman into "them that dwell therein?"
"which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel."
define "Carmel" and the rest...follows, i guess
what is "in the midst of Carmel?"

could this and the woman fleeing be equated? Sure, especially if she is eating for 3 1/2 (former, iow) years. But this is a diff picture than the one painted of the Woman, Justified (or whatever) right.

See, "woman" is not...a compliment, in this context, either

 

[Truth7t7]

fwiw we may not end up disagreeing at all, but just getting a different perception of "woman fleeing into the wilderness,"
which is not imo a good thing either, at least quite possibly
seem to indicate two different ideas here, if
does not; i mean, how can you make the Woman into "them that dwell therein?"
"which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel."
define "Carmel" and the rest...follows, i guess
what is "in the midst of Carmel?"

A decree will go out to rebuild the walls and streets in Jerusalem. When Syria moves against Jerusalem, and the worlds armies this will stop the building. Daniel 9:25, Micah 7:11

Revelation 12:6, and Micah 7:14-15 shows the tribulation saints/church in Israel has fled into (3) different places in the wilderness, not just Carmel.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:11-16KJV
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

 

[bbyrd009]

the tribulation saints/church in Israel has fled into (3) different places in the wilderness, not just Carmel.

yes, in tribulation we usually fall back on old ways, that are not as beneficial; "Carmel," where 450 priests of Baal were, comes to mind, and the other two also contain negative associations. We differ on the definition of "in Israel" so i won't comment there.

and as to the rest, any possible connection, i have spent zero time there yet and i certainly don't know, but i do know that Micah is characterizing those who we might say are "under a curse" or at least must be "fed with the rod."

is the Woman being fed with the rod? yes, i think so; but you prolly don't?
so i'd have to ask your definition of this Woman i guess too

 

[Truth7t7]

What

yes, in tribulation we usually fall back on old ways, that are not as beneficial; "Carmel," where 450 priests of Baal were, comes to mind, and the other two also contain negative associations. We differ on the definition of "in Israel" so i won't comment there.

and as to the rest, any possible connection, i have spent zero time there yet and i certainly don't know, but i do know that Micah is characterizing those who we might say are "under a curse" or at least must be "fed with the rod."

is the Woman being fed with the rod? yes, i think so; but you prolly don't?
so i'd have to ask your definition of this Woman i guess too

I believe the woman represents the 144,000 remnant Jews, and church in Israel, that will flee to the mountains, during the future times of Daniels Abomination Of Desolation.as seen in Matthew 24:15-21

Is your eschatology, dispy, preterist, ah millennial,?

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe the woman represents the 144,000 remnant Jews, and church in Israel, that will flee to the mountains, during the future times of Daniels Abomination Of Desolation.as seen in Matthew 24:15-21

you mean the vassal State of Israel (inc) right now, and not Spiritual Israel, although for the moment that is not as important as getting what "fleeing" implies imo

Is your eschatology, dispy, preterist, ah millennial,?

hmm, dunno tbh, whichever one allows for Christ to be revealed in an individual, each in their own time, i guess.
and completely ignores any attempts to predict the future. which one is that?

 

[bbyrd009]

i can assure you that that generation did not pass before all those things took place, if that helps?

King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Christian Standard Bible
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

Contemporary English Version
I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

Good News Translation
Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

International Standard Version
I tell all of you with certainty, this generation won't disappear until these things happen.

υμιν personal pronoun - second person dative plural
humin hoo-min': to (with or by) you -- ye, you, your(-selves).

 

[bbyrd009]

why do you stand there looking up into the sky?
you'll see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up
:)

 

[Ac28]

Harvest 1874 is a true wolf in sheep's clothing. This particular forum is supposed to be a Christians Only forum. This guy is a Jehovah's Witness and everything he has spouted is heretical JW doctrine, right from the mouth of Satan. Yet, no where in the 11 pages of this thread, have the words, Jehovah, Witnesses, or JW appeared - he's a sneak. For their greatest heresy, JWs don't believe in the deity of Christ. They believe He was a created being. That makes it absolutely impossible for those that buy into the JW doctrine to be saved. This man has sneaked into this thread without declaring his heretical motives. Harvest 1874 must be banned from this forum.

Someday, I would not be surprised to read that Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Smith were twin brothers who decided at an early age that their life's work would be to form false Christian organizations, based on pagan principles, that would ultimately destroy Christianity. Russell has shown himself to be a genuine false prophet many times over (all it takes is once). His false Predictions of the 2nd Coming of Christ were based on measurements of the Great Pyramid of Egypt.

 

[charity]

Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

Hello there,

* I have not read through this thread, so forgive me if I am repeating what another has said.

* 'A dispensation' (oikonomia) signifies the, 'act of administering', it occurs in Luke 16:2,3 and 4, and is translated, 'stewardship'. In 1 Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 1:10; 3:2 & 9; Col. 1:25, and 1 Tim. 1:4. These are all the occurrences of the usage of the Greek word, 'oikonomia', not always translated dispensation, as you will see (e.g., it is also translated - fellowship & edifying).

* Dispensational truth is that particular revelation of God's will to man during some particular administration (or economy) and which especially pertains to it.

* When some teaching or practice is spoken of as being 'undispensational', it is because owing to the introduction of a new administration, certain things that obtained under a previous administration have become obsolete.

* The term 'undispensational teaching' therefore, is teaching peculiar to one dispensation which has been imported into another and differing dispensation, or administration, where the conditions of divine dealing render the practical application of such teaching quite inadmissible.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

Hello again,

* The dispensation of law is in many respects in entire opposition to the principles that underlie the dispensation of grace.

* Do and thou shalt live - is the condition of blessing under law. 'And it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He hath commanded us' (Deut. 6:25).

* Live and then do - is the blessed fact of the present dispensation of grace. 'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost' (Titus 3:5). 'Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin' (Rom. 3:20). Certain rites (e.g., Circumcision), observances (e.g., sabbaths), and sacrifices were enjoined upon Israel under law, but these are entirely set aside, no, are made false and untrue if carried over into the present dispensation. 'Let no man therefore judge you in respect of ... the sabbath' (see Col. 2 and Heb.10).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

* If we do not rightly divide the Word of truth, we are in danger of falsifying the gospel, and of misrepresenting the Lord. The false teachers who disturbed the Gentile believers with their words, 'Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved' (Acts 15), could point to chapter and verse for their doctrine.

* Circumcision was not only a divinely-appointed ordinance, but the Lord had said of the man child who was not circumcised, 'That soul shall be cut off from his people, he hath broken My covenant' (Gen 17:14). Nevertheless, the Apostle Paul, when speaking of this very thing to the Galatians, says of the divinely -appointed ordinances when brought over out of their true place - under law - into the dispensation of grace, that they are 'weak and beggarly elements', (Gal.4:9), and that the believers' subjection to such is to be placed upon a parallel with the idolatrous sevice of their unconverted heathen days (see Gal. 4:8-11; 5:1-3; and 6:12-16).

* If the words of the Bible are not to be divided according to their dispensational setting, then we must all be circumcised, all keep the sabbath, the passover, the day of atonement, the feast of tabernacles, and the other observances of the Mosiac ritual, thus setting one passage of Scripture in conflict with another, and ultimately find ourselves in utter confusion.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Harvest 1874]

* The term 'undispensational teaching' therefore, is teaching peculiar to one dispensation which has been imported into another and differing dispensation, or administration, where the conditions of divine dealing render the practical application of such teaching quite inadmissible.

This is what happens when one fells to rightly divide the word of God into the proper "times and seasons", a common mistake made by many of the Lord's professed people.

 

[charity]

Thank you @Enoch111 and @Harvest 1874 for your responses.

Another important reason for 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth' is that if we are uncertain about dispensational truth, we shall not be clear as to the gospel. Many feel that preaching the gospel is what they are called upon to do, but which gospel (or good news) is being preached? There are several named gospels in Scripture, aren't there? The gospel or good news of :-

- the Kingdom. - (Mar. 1:14; Matt. 4:23)
- of God, concerning His Son. - (Rom. 1:1-3)
- of the circumcision. - (Gal. 2:7)
- of the uncircumcision. - (Gal. 2:7)
- of the grace of God. - (Acts 20:24)
- of the glory of Christ. (2 Cor.4:4)
- of the glory of the blessed God. - (1 Tim.1:11)
- The everlasting (eonian) gospel or good news. - (Rev.14:6)

* In order to know to whom these gospels were to be delivered, at what time, and with what intent, we need to rightly divide the Word of God, and differentiate between the dispensations within which they are operating. Only by doing so can we be sure that the gospel being preached today is truth for the dispensation we are currently in.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[H. Richard]

A Common Error:
-
It is a common error for religious preachers/teachers to assume that the Pauline Gospel of Grace should be blended in with what Jesus and the 11 preached. I feel this is a deadly error that will send many to Hell.
-
Gal 1:8 NKJV
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
-
It is a fact that God has given humankind different requirements down through history. The Pauline Gospel of salvation by faith in what God did on the cross (His shed blood) is without precedence in the scriptures. When a person fails to see this they will always blend the Law of Moses (what Jesus and the 11 taught to the Jews) with grace and destroy both of them. Paul warned about this in Rom. 2:16 and Rom 16:25.
-
Rom 2:16 NKJV
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
-
Rom 16:25 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began.
-
It is clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the promised "kingdom of heaven" to the Gentiles. The following scriptures support this fact.
-
Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
-
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
-
Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
-
Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all the promises God made to the Jews that were written about Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8 above.
-

IMPORTANT NOTE: -- This is not to say that God did not have another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9). The church for this age of grace (the Church of His body) started when Paul preached the gospel of grace that was given to him by Jesus.
-
It is my obligation/burden to try and make people see this terrible error. Salvation in this age of Gods grace is by grace or legalism. It can not be by both.
-
H Richard

 

[Enoch111]

It is a common error for religious preachers/teachers to assume that the Pauline Gospel of Grace should be blended in with what Jesus and the 11 preached. I feel this is a deadly error that will send many to Hell.

This is one of the most bizarre allegations I have ever seen. If the Gospels are Scripture, and all of Paul's epistles are also Scripture, then they all must be treated as authoritative regarding the Gospel and every other doctrine (2 TIM 3:16,17). The fact that Paul uses Abraham as the example of one who was justified by grace through faith back in Genesis confirms that you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN.

 

[H. Richard]

This is one of the most bizarre allegations I have ever seen. If the Gospels are Scripture, and all of Paul's epistles are also Scripture, then they all must be treated as authoritative regarding the Gospel and every other doctrine (2 TIM 3:16,17). The fact that Paul uses Abraham as the example of one who was justified by grace through faith back in Genesis confirms that you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN.

***

Your idea is exactly what I am writing about. All the Bible teachings are scriptural but not all are for every dispensation. As I pointed out Jesus said by His own words that He did not come to anyone except the House of Israel. Therefore what He taught the Jews was based on the Law of Moses and it was legalism. Both the Jews and Jesus were under the Law of Moses. But today everyone is NOT under the Law of Moses.

If a person is going to say everything in the scriptures is written TOO US TO DO then they do not understand what Dispensation teaching is all about. All scripture is given for our learning but not all of it teaches the gospel that was hidden in God.

Most will just ignore the following scriptures so they can say there was no change to the gospel in any age.

1 Cor 2:6-8
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV

Eph 3:8-11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that """"now""" the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
NKJV