Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

[Willie T]

Ok. I guess that would mean, "Yes", I am also a recipient of a 'negative' reaction to anticipating more Christians being saved than not.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Hello @Harvest 1874

Not being able to sleep tonight, I have been reading through your posts throughout the thread, and have enjoyed your clarity: but forgive me, for I have to ask you directly if you are a Universalist? You appear to be so, for you maintain that 'all' will be saved.

Also, you say that you are not affiliated to any denomination or body of people, but you speak in terms of 'we': 'we' being 'Bible students' like yourself I have presumed, yet, you must be part of a body of like-minded people, to be able to speak so confidently in terms of 'we'.

I am wary, for I am drawn to your clarity, but I do not believe that it is the testimony of scripture that 'all' will be saved, and recent exchanges reveal differences in our understanding.

This is sad, for I feel you have much to offer, but when I get alarm signals sounding, I generally retreat, and go back to, 'my Bible and me,' in isolation. I too am not affiliated to any denomination, or company of people, though my influence has been the written and audio ministry of the 'Berean Publishing Trust', in London, through such writers as Dr E.W. Bullinger, Mr Charles Welch, and Mr Stuart Allen, to which I owe a debt of gratitude.

Thankfully, we are all God's workmanship,
Praise His Name!
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

In regards to the reference of my usage of the term "we" and "our" I (myself) am speaking as a Bible Student, that is those who believe in the Divine Plan of the Ages, this of course does not imply that all the brethren share the same opinions on every issue, all are free to believe or to interpret the text as they please, this is our liberty which we have received in Christ Jesus, however on most of the fundamental teachings of the scriptures we are in agreement. Note it was never our intention to misled anyone.

As for your question concerning Universalism, the following should suffice for now, I will be posting a further explanation to my blog shortly, entitle "A Life for a Life", I believe once you have examined it you will better understand where we are coming from.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have (unconditionally) ALL MEN to be saved (from the original Adamic curse), and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim 2:3-6)

Understand that we are not Universalist, God having saved (redeemed) all men from the original curse which was upon Adam and his race does not guarantee everlasting life to any, he merely releases us from the original sentence, brought upon us by Adam’s sin. Eternal salvation will be determined upon the conclusion of the trial (a new trial) of each individual, the Church presently during this the Gospel Age as each prospective member of the body passes beyond the Vail of death, and the remainder of the world by the end of the Mediatorial reign at the end of the millennial age.

 

[bbyrd009]

Whereas it is His bodily presence that is being referred to in Luke 17:20-22, isn't it?

i would say 'yes,' with the understanding that Jesus is referring to our desire there, not reality, "when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man..." ("but you will not be able to")

 

[charity]

Ok. I guess that would mean, "Yes", I am also a recipient of a 'negative' reaction to anticipating more Christians being saved than not.

Not from me, @Willie T,

For I am happy to leave that knowledge in God's hands.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

 

[charity]

In regards to the reference of my usage of the term "we" and "our" I (myself) am speaking as a Bible Student, that is those who believe in the Divine Plan of the Ages, this of course does not imply that all the brethren share the same opinions on every issue, all are free to believe or to interpret the text as they please, this is our liberty which we have received in Christ Jesus, however on most of the fundamental teachings of the scriptures we are in agreement. Note it was never our intention to misled anyone.

As for your question concerning Universalism, the following should suffice for now, I will be posting a further explanation to my blog shortly, entitle "A Life for a Life", I believe once you have examined it you will better understand where we are coming from.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have (unconditionally) ALL MEN to be saved (from the original Adamic curse), and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim 2:3-6)

Understand that we are not Universalist, God having saved (redeemed) all men from the original curse which was upon Adam and his race does not guarantee everlasting life to any, he merely releases us from the original sentence, brought upon us by Adam’s sin. Eternal salvation will be determined upon the conclusion of the trial (a new trial) of each individual, the Church presently during this the Gospel Age as each prospective member of the body passes beyond the Vail of death, and the remainder of the world by the end of the Mediatorial reign at the end of the millennial age.

Thank you for responding, @Harvest 1874,

I hope you were not offended by me.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Harvest 1874]

Thank you for responding, @Harvest 1874,

I hope you were not offended by me.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Not at all my dear sister, its easy to get the wrong impression about an individual and their beliefs when all you have to go by are few dozen posts. These alone are are not enough in themselves as they can be easily misinterpreted and lead one to assume something not implied.

 

[charity]

Many prophecies have already been fulfilled (such as the beginnings and endings of previous dispensations and ages, specific events such as the, flood, the beginning of the Law dispensation, Israel’s “seventy years” of desolation, the First Advent and etc.) it’s not all that hard to find specific dates on these events (not exact days, but specific years now that’s possible), a good beginning would be through study of the True Bible Chronology which will greatly aid in this endeavor.

Hello @Harvest 1874
(Ref:#64. P.4)
Would you please be kind enough to tell me where to look for what you term, 'the True Bible Chronology', so that I can see for myself what you are referring to.

Also, I would be interested to learn to what your references in (#2. P1.) to (SITS Vol.1, page 65-75) and (Harvest Gleanings 3. Page 252) refer, so that I too can make reference to these works, if possible.

In, #13, in response to @Stranger you explained the meaning of 'SITS', but I would value a link to these works online if that is possible.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[DAH]

then why destroy those who destroy the earth? Why pray "on earth as it is in heaven?"

The "Lord's Prayer" is a prayer for Tribulation Saints -

For instance - give us this day our daily bread...when would we, in the age of Grace, require this?

In future Tribulation, as in days of past, Israel will once again be in Tribulation - as in Exodus when they depended on daily Manna (40-years)...this manna literally lasted 1-day at a time. We have grocery stores filled with bread.

Exodus 16:15
(KJV Strong's)
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.

Manna is specifically mentioned in Revelation as well - which the Church will not be present for:\

Revelation 2:17
(KJV Strong's)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Moving ahead in the Lord's prayer - "on earth as in Heaven"....

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus instructed His disciples to pray for the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth. This kingdom was a kingdom in which Israel would be supreme among the nations (Deuteronomy 28.1, 13). they had 12-Apostles lined up to take the seats of 12-princes of 12-tribes....nothing gentile there. Hundreds of verses speak of this kingdom in the Old Testament. One will search the Scriptures in vain to find any record that Jews had a hope of heaven. Their hope was wholly earthly.

Paul’s teaching on the kingdom of God bears little resemblance to the kingdom proclaimed by the prophets or by Jesus (Romans 14.17; 1 Corinthians 4.20, 6.9-10, 15.24, 50; Galatians 5.21; Ephesians 5.5; Colossians 1.13, 4.11; 1 Thessalonians 2.12; 2 Thessalonians 1.5; 2 Timothy 4.1, 18). The kingdom of the prophets and of Jesus was earthly. In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus called for the establishment of God’s kingdom on earth (Matthew 6.10). Paul emphasized God’s heavenly kingdom. Right before his martyrdom Paul declared, “The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen” (2 Timothy 4.18). Paul taught that members of the body of Christ, the Church (Ephesians 1.22-23; Colossians 1.18), i.e., Christians, had heavenly citizenship (Ephesians 1.3; Philippians 3.20) in God’s kingdom, not earthly citizenship. This was entirely different from God’s revelation prior to Paul.

 

[bbyrd009]

The "Lord's Prayer" is a prayer for Tribulation Saints -

ah. Capital t huh?

For instance - give us this day our daily bread...when would we, in the age of Grace, require this?

um, you mean literal bread?

 

[DAH]

ah. Capital t huh?
um, you mean literal bread?

Did the nation need literal bread when in the wilderness? Will the nation need bread again in the tribulation...when they can't take the mark, buy or sell? Does bread not mean bread in English? Why pick and choose which verses to spiritualize - God spoke simply to us via the word, so we could understand, not guess - otherwise there would be thousands of made up meanings to what should be plainly read.

So yes - bread.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Hello @Harvest 1874
(Ref:#64. P.4)
Would you please be kind enough to tell me where to look for what you term, 'the True Bible Chronology', so that I can see for myself what you are referring to.

Also, I would be interested to learn to what your references in (#2. P1.) to (SITS Vol.1, page 65-75) and (Harvest Gleanings 3. Page 252) refer, so that I too can make reference to these works, if possible.

In, #13, in response to @Stranger you explained the meaning of 'SITS', but I would value a link to these works online if that is possible.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner, work has kept me busy of late, and I got behind on the discussions. By the time I got back most of my alerts were for another thread and I just about forgot about this one until someone posted something new.

As for the True Bible Chronology and the Studies in the Scriptures series they can be found on numerous Bible Student web sites, this is one which might prove helpful (Volumes Index) they have a lot of useful content. I linked you right to the pages with the SITS studies, but there's a lot more information to be found on the site.

Presently I am working on a bit by bit presentation of the True Bible Chronology on my blog here, you can go to the site presented and find the whole thing, but some find it hard to read large blocks of information so I'm breaking it down in simple segments which I hope are much easier to digest.

Your servant, Harvest 1874

 

[bbyrd009]

Did the nation need literal bread when in the wilderness? Will the nation need bread again in the tribulation...when they can't take the mark, buy or sell? Does bread not mean bread in English? Why pick and choose which verses to spiritualize - God spoke simply to us via the word, so we could understand, not guess - otherwise there would be thousands of made up meanings to what should be plainly read.

So yes - bread.

hmm, imo the symbology of bread is pretty plain, but for all i know you might get wool from the Lamb of God i guess. Plenty of ppl hungry in developed countries too though

Jesus is Manna (JOHN 6:31-35)

 

[charity]

Sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner, work has kept me busy of late, and I got behind on the discussions. By the time I got back most of my alerts were for another thread and I just about forgot about this one until someone posted something new.

As for the True Bible Chronology and the Studies in the Scriptures series they can be found on numerous Bible Student web sites, this is one which might prove helpful (Volumes Index) they have a lot of useful content. I linked you right to the pages with the SITS studies, but there's a lot more information to be found on the site.

Presently I am working on a bit by bit presentation of the True Bible Chronology on my blog here, you go to the site presented and find the whole thing, but some find it hard to read large blocks of information so I'm breaking it down in simple segments which I hope are much easier to digest.

Your servant, Harvest 1874

Thank you for responding to my query. @Harvest 1874, by giving me the information that I asked for. It is for me now to exercise the Berean spirit (Acts 17:10-11).

‘And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea:
who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,
and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.’
(Act 17:10)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Dispensationalism is merely a means to an end. The 'end' being the knowledge of God, in Christ Jesus: and to know the will and purpose of God for this administration, thereby walking worthy of Him, and in such a way as to glorify Him.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Truth7t7]

Did the nation need literal bread when in the wilderness? Will the nation need bread again in the tribulation...when they can't take the mark, buy or sell? Does bread not mean bread in English? Why pick and choose which verses to spiritualize - God spoke simply to us via the word, so we could understand, not guess - otherwise there would be thousands of made up meanings to what should be plainly read.

So yes - bread.

"Manna"

God will provide "Literal Bread From Heaven" as the tribulation saints are in the wilderness, just as in the days of Moses and coming out of Egypt.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:11-16KJV
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

 

[bbyrd009]

14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.

hmm, you know this is a curse right, not related to manna i don't think; good for contrast if that's what you were shooting for?

 

[Truth7t7]

hmm, you know this is a curse right, not related to manna i don't think; good for contrast if that's what you were shooting for?

I don't see a curse that you claim, I see the tribulation church actually in a literal wilderness being fed literal manna from heaven as the tribuation takes place.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:11-16KJV
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't see a curse that you claim, I see the tribulation church actually in a literal wilderness being fed literal manna from heaven as the tribuation takes place.

ok, then we might approach this from the "feed them the rod" thing, or reflect on the fact that the Wanderers complained about the manna lol

Micah is using the symbology of feeding in "Bashan and Gilead" there to mean as applying to "them that dwell therein," "which dwell solitarily in the woods," iow they have a bad dogma, bad food, not good food; or at least they have "made the land desolate" right. "As in the days of old" is an indicator, and the locations of Bashan and Gilead, "east," is another clue there. As is the association with "oaks," which imply "inferior school of thought."

"thy rod, the flock..." can even be associated with quail for that i guess.

Now, will they nonetheless be shown marvellous things, after the pattern of the coming out of Egypt?
sure, but now the subject has changed; or if it remains the same, we have to see that the marvellous things were shown in the eating of the quail, at least for those who...had an inferior school of thought @ "manna." so to speak
(the most extreme of them died, for anyone unfam with the story; so 'marvellous' might not be the best translation there lol)

 

[Helen]

I don't see a curse that you claim, I see the tribulation church actually in a literal wilderness being fed literal manna from heaven as the tribuation takes place.

I hope not...the wilderness is north of us...and we have 7 months of winter...and many weeks of minus 30 degrees!! Yikes!

Believe it or not...in 1976 we moved up into the wilderness north of Ft St John on the Alaskan HWY
There were 78 of us in a ranch type wood place each family had a cabin...but we all cooked and ate together and had meetings every day.

We were ( we believed) getting ourselves and our kids away from the Beast System which was coming.
Well it gets very cold up there...and try as we may, we could never get the place self sustaining ...impossible.
Needless to say...in 1981 we moved back into the city.

I believe at some point 'blood will run in the streets'.....
I used to believe that there was a place of hiding for this flesh man...but I no longer do...
I believe as Christians we need to "live and move and have our being, in Him"...HE is the only 'safe place'.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so.

......H
PS the other thing we learned was...leaving the city "world" and going deeper..
....Just like with the children of Israel...Moses could get Israel out of Egypt , but he couldn't get Egypt our of Israel.

Using an outhouse in minus 30 or even minus 40 below, does not make a person any more spiritual!!!!

 

[Truth7t7]

ok, then we might approach this from the "feed them the rod" thing, or reflect on the fact that the Wanderers complained about the manna lol

Micah is using the symbology of feeding in "Bashan and Gilead" there to mean as applying to "them that dwell therein," "which dwell solitarily in the woods," iow they have a bad dogma, bad food, not good food; or at least they have "made the land desolate" right. "As in the days of old" is an indicator, and the locations of Bashan and Gilead, "east," is another clue there. As is the association with "oaks," which imply "inferior school of thought."

"thy rod, the flock..." can even be associated with quail for that i guess.

Now, will they nonetheless be shown marvellous things, after the pattern of the coming out of Egypt?
sure, but now the subject has changed; or if it remains the same, we have to see that the marvellous things were shown in the eating of the quail, at least for those who...had an inferior school of thought @ "manna." so to speak
(the most extreme of them died, for anyone unfam with the story; so 'marvellous' might not be the best translation there lol)

We will disagree, I see that Revelation 12:6 & Micah 7:11-16 applying to physical geographical locations around present Israel, and a physical future tribulation that will be fed in future wilderness locations identified, as the world watches astounded, I don't believe it's symbolic, but a future literal event.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:11-16KJV
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.