Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

[DAH]

Is it Biblical? Yup...

Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

We have dispensations of different Gospels, diets, laws, etc.

Simple dispensational differences between Kingdom Gospel and Gospel of Grace:

Kingdom Gospel
Preaches the soon coming of the king and his kingdom (Matt 3:2)

Gospel of Grace
Preaches the grace of God for salvation (Rom 3:22-26)

Kingdom Gospel
The king and kingdom was promised to the nation of Israel (Luke 1:69)

Goselpe of Grace
The grace of God is offered freely to all (Rom 3:22)

Kingdom Gospel
The kingdom was spoken about since the world began (Acts 3:21-25)

Gospel of Grace
The dispensation of God’s grace was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25)

Kingdom Gospel
Killing the king is a sad and wicked thing (Luke 24:17; Acts 2:23)

Gospel of Grace
The crucifixion of Christ is our glory (Gal 6:14)

Kingdom Gospel
The cross of Christ was not part of the message (Luke 9:2 vs. Luke 18:34)

Gospel of Grace
Requires preaching the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Kingdom Gospel
Resurrection was not part of the message (John 20:9)

Gospel of Grace
Preaching is vain without the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14)

Kingdom Gospel
The kingdom requires performance (1 John 2:3; Matt 25:32-46)

Gospel of Grace
God’s grace motivates a purpose in your heart (2 Cor 9:7; 2 Cor 5:14-15)

Kingdom Gospel
The kingdom will benefit everyone on earth (Rev 20:3-4; Isa 2:3-4)

Gospel of Grace
God’s grace unto salvation benefits only those that believe (Rom 3:22)

Kingdom Gospel
Salvation comes in the future when the kingdom comes (Acts 3:19; Heb 9:28; 1 Pet 1:5)

Gospel of Grace
Salvation comes at the moment of belief (Eph 1:13; Rom 5:1)

Kingdom Gospel
To be saved requires enduring to the end (Matt 24:13)

Gospel of Grace
To be saved requires believing your work has come to an end (Rom 4:5)

Kingdom Gospel
There is a difference between Jew and Gentile in the kingdom (Matt 15:26; Zech 8:23)

Gospel of Grace
There are no Jews or Gentiles in the church in this dispensation of grace (Gal 3:28)

Kingdom Gospel
Was given to the Twelve apostles of Israel to preach (Acts 1:3)

Gospel of Grace
Was given to the apostle of the Gentiles to preach (Rom 11:13; 1 Cor 9:17; Eph 3:1-2)

Kingdom Gospel
Waiting for a kingdom of heaven to come to earth (Matt 6:10)

Gospel of Grace
Preaching for those on earth to trust Christ and go to heaven (Eph 2:6-7)

Kingdom Gospel
The kingdom will be a visible presence on earth (Matt 24:27; Rev 19:11)

Gospel of Grace
God’s grace is by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

Kingdom Gospel
Healing of the sick was a sign of the kingdom (Matt 4:23; Mark 16:18)

Gospel of Grace
The lack of healing is a sign of God’s sufficient grace (2 Cor 12:8-10)

Kingdom Gospel
Water baptism prepares Israel to enter the kingdom (Matt 3:3; Acts 2:38)

Gospel of Grace
Baptism by the Spirit places us in the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13)

Kingdom Gospel
Continued obedience to the commandments required (Matt 23:13)

Gospel of Grace
Justified without the law of Moses; not under the law (Acts 13:39; Rom 6:14)

Kingdom Gospel
Faith without works is dead (James 2:24)

Gospel of Grace
Faith in the finished work of Christ gives peace and life (Rom 4:5; Rom 5:1)

These are just a few of the differences between preaching the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of the grace of God. These are only two of the many gospels in the Bible.

If the church agrees we are to preach the gospel. It is important we get the message right and clear. Knowing the difference between the many gospels in the Bible is the difference between a confused church and a saved church.

Today, God is dispensing his grace to a world of sinners, not his kingdom to a world in righteous judgment. It is the church’s responsibility to make all men see this mystery operation of God (Eph 3:9).

Knowing what makes the gospel of the grace of God different is necessary to make our message clear enough so that God’s will be done (1 Tim 2:4).

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” – 1 Timothy 2:4

 

[Harvest 1874]

Thanks so much for this informative response! No worries about a not-instant reply. But you've apologized to a Canadian so now we might get locked into an apology cycle (as Canadians are known for this, lol). Im sorry that after you took time to get me this thorough response that I was already off line for the evening. As an aside, you say you "still" have to work days; does that mean that the end of this is in sight?

Im digesting this info you've shared. And the whole deal is really something that hasn't been part of my Church life or study. So while theres no doubt lots to discuss I think Im just gonna let this all sink in for now.

Thanks again for this info

6 more years until retirement, I should say 6 more years until I can draw SS, most likely I will have to keep on working as long as I can, but probably not as much leaving more time for the Lord's business.

Take your time, look things over and get back with me when you're ready.

 

[DAH]

So, do you really believe that was written just a few years ago? Of course you don't. If you feel you have to get all hung up on the "D" word used in the translation, then you also have to see that Paul was speaking about "administrations" that occurred before his authorship, around 1,900 years ago, (the mid 60's AD) not maybe a hundred years ago. Where are the verses that give us all the start-and-finish dates of the dispensations that have been decreed since then?

Dispensations are not merely defined as "time" - that's a straw man argument. They are simply different periods when God changes the way he deals with man. For instance - dietary issues have clear dispensations from God. This a grossly simplistic illustration - but it would be a hard argument to say God does not change how he deals with man throughout time. Just as there were different dispensations in the rules associated with salvation - all by grace, but most with works; circumcision, baptism, sacrifice, following the law, then the law abolished, we are not stricken dead for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, we do not sell all of our belongings or give loans to anyone who asks, we do not drink poison or perform miracles with the power of the Ghost or speak foreign languages upon acceptance of the Gospel of the Grace, etc...

God is unchanging and yet he reveals his will progressively. This leads to different instructions to different people. How can an unchanging God give changing instructions? The answer is found in the mystery of Christ.

When God reveals information that changes the prophetic context, then we need to place a division in the scripture. The new information divides from the old information. This creates contexts by which we can interpret all of scripture. This is what we call dispensational change.

Paul calls the information he received from the Lord a dispensation (Col 1:25). This information changed the prophetic context of God’s instructions. According to Paul’s teaching, God is dealing with different people, through a different apostle, in a different way, by a different gospel, towards a different destination.

That is a lot of change.

A smaller change occurred between Abraham and Moses. Abraham was given the promises of God and the covenant of circumcision (Gen 17:1-10). Four hundred years later, the law was added because of transgressions (Gal 3:17).

The law did not remove the promises but rather made them a part of a testament. Abraham was not under the Old Testament known as the Mosaic covenant.

Another change occurred when Jesus ushered in the New Testament. The New Testament was not in effect until Christ died (Heb 9:16-17). Jesus was born under the Old Testament and died to institute the New Testament (Gal 4:4).

The New Testament replaced the Old but it could not remove the promises. The covenant of circumcision and promises to the fathers were being fulfilled by a change in the law and the priesthood (Heb 7:12).

When the kingdom comes there will be another dispensational change as the promises are kept by God and the kingdom of heaven comes to Earth beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47). This is made possible by the full operation of the New Testament promises.

All of these changes were prophesied and revealed in God’s purpose to Israel. We can read about them in the prophets and the Hebrew epistles.

The dispensational change given to Paul was separate from prophecy entirely. It is written that it “was kept secret since the world began” (Rom 16:25).

When reading Paul’s epistles, we are reading about a change more excellent than the Old Testament or New Testament. We are reading about the revelation of the mystery of God in Christ to pay for the sins of humanity without a covenant or a law system (Rom 3:22).

No priests, no sacrifices, no covenants, no holy days, no Israel, no land promise. God had revealed information that changed the prophetic context of the time in which we live. We now no longer live in a time prophesied. We now live in a dispensation that is called a Mystery.

DIET EXAMPLE

1. Eating in the Garden
a. Genesis 1:29-30 – Herbs and fruits; vegetarian
b. Purpose: All was provided for them (no hunting allowed)
c. Significant change: Adam’s Fall
d. The garden changed from provision to hard labor; the lesson was gratitude.

2. Eating after the Flood
a. Genesis 9:1-3 – Hunting instituted
b. Purpose: To spread civilization across the earth
c. Genesis 10:8-10 – A mighty hunter built Babel
d. Significant change: Tower of Babel
e. The language confusion forced them to spread out.

3. Eating after the Law
a. Deut 14:2-3 – Peculiar dietary restrictions (Exo 12:20; Lev 3:17; Lev 11)
b. Purpose: God separates Israel from the nations
c. Significant change: the Law instituted
d. God was dealing with one nation
e. When you see dietary restrictions; God is dealing with one nation.

4. Eating after Paul
a. 1 Timothy 4:4-5 – No restrictions; nothing to be refused
b. Purpose: God offering grace to all men
c. Significant change: dispensation of grace
d. What is taught by Paul is now separate from MMLJ and Peter
e. The weak one eats herbs – Rom 14:2-3
f. Liberty from the law – Col 2:16
g. We do all for the glory of God – 1 Cor 10:31; Col 3:17

5. Eating the Fruit Restored
a. Rev 22:1-3 – The tree of twelve fruits
b. The leaves were for healing.

 

[Naomi25]

I am not a Dispensationalist, but I don't actually have a problem with how you guys explain the 'Dispensations' of time. I'm not sure that I agree, but I can see that you make a very strong biblical case for them. In fact I would say that your biblical case for these are clearer and stronger than that for the Pre-trib rapture...which, as much as I'd like to, I can't quite see in scripture.
As for Harvest 1874....while I appreciate the very clearly written posts and how you laid out the info, I do wonder how you can call yourself a true student of the Bible and not see the doctrine of the Trinity woven throughout it.

 

[DAH]

Thanks for being open and not dismissive. One never knows when they might learn something new. Truth is not validated by familiarity - it is validated by Truth. Truth is truth weather one has heard it or not ;-)

It was illuminating for me - I never understood the Word fully until I studied by rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15). It literally opened the bible for me and made all the seemingly contradictory verses vanish - you don't need to spiritualize away verses that don't make sense when looking through a dispensational lens. All of the Bible is written for us - but not all of it is directed to us. It is paramount to know to whom the writer is addressing in order to receive the correct instructions.

Example - I will try to keep it very simple:

Dispensational right division is the key to understanding the Bible with all its contradictions. Taking God’s words literally without rightly dividing ends in failure, Bible mistakes, and doctrinal confusion.

Don’t believe me? Consider the simple list of actual contradictions listed below (I did not make these up - they are in your Bible!)

They cannot be resolved without mid-Acts dispensational right division.

The popular response to seeing contradictions is to try and remove them. Popular removal methods include, “that is not what God meant” (spiritualization), “that is an unfortunate translation” (Bible correction), or “there are no contradictions in the Bible” (denial).

All of these methods constitute a failure to leave the Bible alone in its plain literal meaning. Trying to remove the contradictions produces doubts about whether God truly inspired the Bible and can actually say what he means.

God does not put mistakes in the Bible. However, different contexts create contradictory verses in the Bible. We can reconcile the contradictions below by identifying who is speaking, to whom, and under what dispensational context.

This is not an exhaustive list. This list is not intended to engender doubt about the truth of the Bible. Mid Acts Pauline right division resolves every contradiction listed below.

Gospel contradictions

1. Is the gospel the cross or the kingdom? – Mark 1:14-15 & 1 Cor 15:1-4
2. Was the cross glorious or shameful? – Acts 3:13-15 & Gal 6:14
3. Was the gospel made known or kept secret? – Rom 16:25 & Acts 3:21
4. Did the twelve understand the gospel or not? – Luke 9:2 & Luke 18:34
5. Do we preach gospel of the kingdom or of Grace? – Luke 9:2 & Acts 20:24
6. Justification with or without works? – Rom 4:5 & James 2:24
7. Was Christ’s blood shed for many or for all? – Mat 20:28 & 1 Tim 2:6
8. Do animal sacrifices atone for sins? – Lev 16:27 & Heb 10:4
9. Is God imputing sins against us? – Acts 5:1-10 & Rom 4:8
10. Do we need works for righteousness? – James 2:24 & Titus 3:5
11. Is salvation not of works or by our behavior? – Eph 2:8-9 & Luke 10:25-29
12. Was Abraham justified by works or not by works? – James 2:21-23 & Rom 4:2-3
13. How are sins forgiven? – John 20:23 & Col 1:14
14. Is forgiveness conditional or not? – Mat 6:14-15 & Eph 4:32
15. Does grace abound or is their an unforgivable sin? – Mark 3:29 & Rom 5:20
16. Is the gospel believe or repentance and baptism? – Acts 2:38 & Acts 16:31
17. Are we at peace with God? – Mat 3:7 & Rom 5:1

Baptism contradictions
18. Are we sent to baptize? – 1 Cor 1:17 & Mark 16:16
19. Does the gospel include water baptism? – 1 Cor 15:1-4 & Mark 1:4
20. One baptism or more? – Eph 4:5 & Mat 3:11

Commission contradictions
21. Go to ‘all men’ or just to Israel? – Mat 10:5-6 & Titus 2:11
22. Should they carry money or not? - Luke 10:4-5 & Luke 22:35-36
23. Should the disciples go to all nations or only circumcision?–Mat 28:19 & Gal 2:9
24. Was Paul sent to baptize? – Mat 28:19 & 1 Cor 1:17
25. Are they baptized by Jesus or into Jesus? – John 4:1 & Rom 6:3
26. Are we to witness Christ’s earthly ministry? – 2 Cor 5:16 & Acts 1:22
27. Should Peter take a sword? – Luke 22:36 & Matt 26:52
28. Should we meditate about what to speak? – 1 Tim 4:15 & Luke 21:14
29. Does the Holy Spirit give utterance or do we? – Acts 6:9-10 & Col 4:6
30. Are the gainsayers able to resist? – Luke 21:15 & Titus 1:9
31. Is Paul or Peter the masterbuilder upon Christ? – Mat 16:18-19 & 1 Cor 3:10
32. Is Paul the least or the ‘chiefest’ of the Apostles? – 2 Cor 11:5 & 1 Cor 15:9
33. Was Paul the first or the last? – 1 Cor 15:8 & 1 Tim 1:16
34. How do we know what to say and believe? - Mark 13:11 & 2 Tim 3:15-17

Contradictions about the Law
35. Are we under the law or not under the law? – Mat 5:19 & Rom 6:14
36. Is Sabbath observance required? – Exo 20:8-10 & Col 2:16
37. Is circumcision necessary? – Gen 17:10-14 & Gal 5:2-6
38. Is the law for righteous men? – Mat 5:17-18 & 1 Tim 1:7-8
39. Are we dead to the law or should we follow it? – Mat 23:1-3 & Rom 7:3
40. Does righteousness come by the law? – Deut 6:25 & Rom 10:3-6
41. Is the law a sign of strength or weakness? – Josh 1:7 & Gal 4:9
42. Should we tithe? – Mat 23:23 & 2 Cor 9:7
43. Is giving (tithing) a punishable requirement? – Mal 3:8 & 2 Cor 9:7
44. Should Sabbath laws be enforced? – Numbers 15:32-36 & Gal 4:10-11
45. Liberty or bondage of the law? – Mat 23:1-2 & Gal 5:1
46. Do we need a temple? – Acts 2:46 & 1 Cor 3:16
47. Are the laws of abomination still effectual? – Mat 24:15 & Gal 4:9-11
48. Are we secure in Christ or our continued behavior? – 2 Tim 2:13 & Heb 10:26-27

Jew/Gentile contradictions
49. Is there a distinction between Jew and Gentile? – Mat 15:26 & Gal 3:28
50. Jews saved ‘in due time’ or ‘out of due time’? – 1 Pet 5:6 & 1 Cor 15:8
51. Salvation of the Jews or the Gentiles? – John 4:22 & Rom 11:11
52. Gentile blessing through Israel’s rise or fall? – Acts 3:25 & Rom 11:11
53. Will the Gentiles receive salvation? – Acts 28:28 & Rom 1:28
54. Did the Lord tell the apostles to go to Jerusalem first? – Luke 24:47 & Gal 1:17
55. Christ is at the right hand for whom? – Acts 5:31-32 & Eph 1:19-23
56. Who is the audience for the gospel? – Mat 10:5-7 & 2 Tim 1:11
57. Are we saved into one nation (Israel) or one Body? – Isa 60:3 & Eph 2:16
58. Are we a part of the seedline or adopted? – Gen 9:9 & Gal 4:5
59. Jesus ministry to circumcision or Paul’s ministry to Gentiles? Rom 15:8 & 15:16
60. Did Paul have mutual faith with uncircumcised Romans or with Jesus ministry to the circumcision? – Rom 1:12 & Rom 15:8
61. Were the mysteries revealed before the death of Christ? Mat 13:11 & 1 Cor 2:7-8
62. What was prepared before/since the world began? – Mat 25:34 & Eph 1:3-4
63. Was the work of Jesus prophesied or kept hidden? – Luke 24:44 & Eph 3:9
64. Was the message for today known by the prophets? – Acts 3:24 & Col 1:26\
65. Can we understand the things God has prepared? – Isa 64:4 & 1 Cor 2:10
66. Was the book of Acts the end or the beginning? – Acts 2:17 & 1 Tim 1:16

Contradictions about our service to God
67. Who is responsible for our soul? – Heb 13:7 & Rom 14:12
68. Do we get the Holy Spirit upon belief or baptism? – Acts 2:38 & Eph 1:13
69. Do we need to confess sins to get forgiveness? – 1 John 1:9 & Col 2:13
70. Do we eat animals? – Gen 1:29 & Gen 9:3
71. Which animals do we eat? – Deut 14:3 & 1 Tim 4:4
72. Are we to keep unity or honor separation? – Eph 4:3 & Rom 16:17
73. Be like the ant or the raven? – Prov 6:6-8 & Luke 12:22-24
74. Should we work for food or not? – Mat 6:25-26 & 1 Tim 5:18
75. Should we sell all or provide for our family? – 1 Tim 3:5-6 & Mark 10:17-22
76. Should we judge? – Mat 7:1-2 & 1 Cor 2:15
77. Should ministers work for food? – Luke 10:4-5 & 2 Thess 3:8-11
78. Is having a child a good or bad thing? – Mat 24:19 & 1 Tim 5:14
79. Does the Holy Spirit stay or leave when we do wrong? Psalm 51:11 & Eph 4:30
80. Do we need a teacher? 1 John 2:27 & 2 Tim 2:2 & Eph 4:11

Future events contradictions
81. Peace on earth or not? – Luke 2:14 & Luke 12:51
82. Do the Jews have a special standing before God? – Deut 7:6 & Col 3:11
83. Do we inherit the earth or heaven? – Mat 5:5 & Col 1:3-5
84. Is the coming of the Lord a time of terror or comfort? –Joel 2:1-11 & 1Thess 4:16
85. Looking for earthly dominion or heavenly? – Phil 3:20 & Mat 6:10
86. Will we endure through the wrath or be delivered? – Mat 24:13 & 1 Thess 1:10\
87. Plowshares or swords? – Joel 3:10 & Micah 4:3
88. Physical blessings or spiritual blessings in heaven? Luke 12:32 & Eph 1:3
89. Future or present atonement? – Acts 3:19 & Rom 5:11
90. Future or present grace? – 1 Pet 1:13 & Rom 5:2
91. Will we reign in heaven or on earth? – Luke 22:30 & Eph 2:6

Prayer contradictions
92. How often do we need to pray before it is answered? – Isa 65:24 & Eph 6:18
93. Do we get anything we ask in prayer? – Mat 21:22 & 2 Cor 12:8-9
94. Should we know how to pray or not? – Luke 11:1 & Rom 8:26
95. Do we get what we ask or more than we ask? – Mat 21:22 & Eph 3:20
96. Do apostles have the power to heal? – Mark 16:18 & 1 Tim 5:23
97. Can we expect a healing from God? – Isa 53:5 & 2 Cor 12:7-10

General contradictions
98. Was creation good or bad? – Gen 1:31 & Gen 6:6
99. Were the Jerusalem saints poor or not? – Acts 4:34 & Rom 15:26
100. Do we need to teach ‘Know the Lord’? Jer 31:34 & 1 Tim 4:10-11
101. Are we washed by water or the Spirit? – Acts 22:16 & 1 Cor 6:11
102. Is it greater love to die for your friends or enemies? John 15:13-14 & Rom 5:10
103. Are angels teaching us or are we teaching them? – Zech 1:9 & Eph 3:10
104. Jesus was the stumbling stone or cornerstone? – Rom 9:18-33 & Eph 2:23-18

 

[DAH]

Understanding your Bible dispensationally will help keep you from thinking things like you are the lost sheep, or you are the bride of Christ, or that it's you that returns with Christ as an army on white horses at the 2nd coming. Dispensational study and rightly dividing the word of truth (that's dividing truth from truth - truth for you, the Gentile, and truth for Israel. All of the Bible is true - it's just not all about you). It's illuminating.

 

[DAH]

I am not a Dispensationalist, but I don't actually have a problem with how you guys explain the 'Dispensations' of time. I'm not sure that I agree, but I can see that you make a very strong biblical case for them. In fact I would say that your biblical case for these are clearer and stronger than that for the Pre-trib rapture...which, as much as I'd like to, I can't quite see in scripture.
As for Harvest 1874....while I appreciate the very clearly written posts and how you laid out the info, I do wonder how you can call yourself a true student of the Bible and not see the doctrine of the Trinity woven throughout it.

OH NO! I didn't catch that you are not following a pre-trib rapture. That's sad - it's our blessed hope! It's our only ticket outta here to avoid the almighty wrath of God in the Tribulation - which is clearly going to happen. We live in an age of Grace - all sins forgiven. God is NOT dishing wrath out to us, but he will after we leave. Otherwise, what's the point of the blessed hope - to be here for all the drama and pain?

This is a great study from Pastor O'Steen out of Georgia. Very simple to understand and read the scripture on your own to verify.

Most Bible teachers fail to consistently divide the Bible (2 Tim. 2:15) between the prophetic kingdom program of Israel and the mystery program of the body of Christ. The things that were SPOKEN by the prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21) cannot be the things that were kept SECRET from the prophets since the world began (Rom. 16:25)! This is exactly why many "fundamental preachers" today deny the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Rightly dividing the Bible will keep you from believing in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture and thereby losing your blessed hope (which is a serious error, Col. 1:23). We are instructed by the apostle to the Gentiles to be looking for Christ from heaven-not-the-antichrist-from-earth!

The English word rapture refers to a state or experience of being carried away. It comes from the Latin word rapto which means to seize or snatch away by force. So, although the word rapture is not in the KJB, it is certainly a good word to use in describing believers being "CAUGHT UP" (1 Thess. 4:17) off the earth into heaven by the power of God! The body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed through Paul (Eph. 3) and so was the rapture of that body ("I shew you a mystery", 1 Cor. 15:51). The body of Christ is NOT the subject of the PROPHESIED tribulation period (all 7 years are subject of prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27). The rapture of the body of Christ is only revealed in Paul's epistles. We must not confuse our rapture with the mid-trib rapture of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (Rev. 12:5) or the post-trib rapture of the Jews back into their land (Matt. 24:29-31).

Those that hold to a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib view of the rapture accuse those of us who understand our blessed hope of just wanting to escape tribulation. I plead guilty! Anybody in their right mind would want to escape the prophesied tribulation period when God pours out His wrath on the world! However, that is NOT why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do so because it is scriptural. Throughout church history God's people have suffered much tribulation (Acts 14:22) but we are not going through the prophesied tribulation period which will be the time of JACOB'S trouble (Jer. 30:7).

Many Bible teachers today don't seem to understand the stark difference between the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ. Notice the following differences:

The Rapture (1 Thess. 4:17) The Revelation (1 Pet. 1:13)
1. Mystery revealed through Paul (1 Cor. 15:51) 1. Spoken by prophets (Jude 14-15)


2. Before the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:10) 2. After the Tribulation (Matt. 24:27)


3. Christ comes secretly to meet us 3. Christ comes publicly to earth (Rev. 1:7)
in the air (1 Thess. 4:17)

4. No signs precede (Titus 2:13, 1 Thess. 1:10) 4. Signs precede (Matt. 24)


5. Christ comes in blessing (Phil. 3:20-21) 5. Christ comes in judgment (Rev. 19:11)


6. Christ comes for His body (Col. 3:1-4) 6. Christ comes for Israel (Rom. 11:26)


7. Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10) 7. Judgment on Nations (Matt. 25:31-46)


8. Rapture to heaven (1 Thess. 4:17-18) 8. Rapture to Land (Matt. 24:31; Isa. 43:1-7)


John 14:1-3 IS NOT THE RAPTURE!


[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The traditional view: (always question the assumptions! - the gates to Heaven are narrow. Few will study the Word of God.)

1. The Father's house is Heaven.

2. When Jesus ascended back to Heaven He started a construction project so that every believer will have their own mansion ("I don't know what it will be like, but if Jesus has been working on it for 2,000 years..."). But, He said “ARE many mansions,” not “WILL BE after I go build them.”

3. Christ is teaching His disciples about the rapture of the Church.

One of the major hinderances to Bible study is reading truth back into a passage before it was revealed. The way this passage is usually taught is a great example of anticipating revelation. It is easy to read the Body of Christ and the rapture into this passage, but the Body of Christ and our rapture were mysteries revealed through the apostle Paul (Eph. 3:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:51-52).


• In my Father's house

Christ referred to the temple in Jerusalem as His Father's house (Jn. 2:16). Some teach that in v.2 Christ is referring to the temple that will be in Jerusalem in the Kingdom Age (Ezek. 40-42). But most of those teachers also claim that the word "mansions" should be translated "rooms.” The King James Bible is perfect and not one word of it should ever be altered. Prophesying of Christ, Isaiah predicted, "And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue..." (Isa. 22:24). The Father’s house is the house of Israel.

• are many mansions

One of the definitions of a mansion is "the house of the lord of a manor.” A manor is "the land belonging to a lord or nobleman.” By saying there were many mansions in His Father's house, Christ was saying that there were plenty of opportunities in redeemed Israel to reign with Him in the kingdom of heaven (see the parable in Lk. 19:11-27). There will doubtless be many mansions in the New Jerusalem which will descend out of heaven after the Kingdom Age (the city will be 1,500 miles square). The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on the gates of that great city (Rev. 21:12).

• If it were not so, I would have told you

Why would the Lord have to make such a statement to His apostles? They had forsaken all to follow Him, so He was reassuring them that it will payoff in the kingdom (Matt. 19:27-30).

• I go to prepare a place for you

Before they could receive this promise, Christ had to prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven. He was going back to the Father by way of the cross. Through His blood He would prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven (Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10). Israel will enter the kingdom under the blood of the New Covenant. Of course, at this point the apostles did not understand the cross (Lk. 18:31-34). The kingdom was “prepared… FROM the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). In regard to the prophetic kingdom program of Israel, Christ is said to be “the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). In contrast, the mystery of the Body of Christ was planned “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4).

One of the definitions for the word place is an "office or official position" (Jn. 11:48). When Christ sets up His kingdom there will be no more place for Gentile kings (Dan. 2:31-35, 44). The twelve apostles will reign as kings, and the faithful Hebrew saints will rule with them over the Gentile nations (Rev. 2:26-27).

• And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Does this sound like 1 Thess. 4:16-17? Things that are similar are not the SAME. Christ never taught the little flock of believing Israel to look for Him to secretly rapture them up to heaven before the tribulation! He prepared them for the tribulation (Matt. 24), and told them to watch for His return to the earth after the tribulation. When He comes comes again to the earth, He will send His angels to gather Israel together from the four winds (Isa. 43:1-7) so they can reign with Him in the land of promise (Matt. 24:29-31).

 

[OzSpen]

As a new member of this forum I note that various discussions have been made on the subject of dispensationalism, some arguing for, others against that is to say whether or not it is a man-made doctrine or one actually taught in the scriptures.

Harvest,

Welcome to CyB. I trust you have an edifying time here.

The formulation of Dispensationalism as a distinct theology is of fairly recent vintage - 200 years old.

"Irishman, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) is unquestionably the father of modern
dispensationalism. Darby came from a highly honorable family and received an
excellent education. He entered Trinity College, Dublin, at the age of fifteen and
graduated with highest honors as a Classical Gold Medalist at age eighteen....

"The most well known feature of dispensational theology is the much-debated pretribulational rapture doctrine" (Thomas Ice, A Short History of Dispensationalism).
​

Would you please make your posts MUCH shorter and keep them to 1 or 2 points at the most? Otherwise, I get bored with reading your posts. I'm being honest.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Those that hold to a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib view of the rapture accuse those of us who understand our blessed hope of just wanting to escape tribulation. I plead guilty! Anybody in their right mind would want to escape the prophesied tribulation period when God pours out His wrath on the world! However, that is NOT why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do so because it is scriptural. Throughout church history God's people have suffered much tribulation (Acts 14:22) but we are not going through the prophesied tribulation period which will be the time of JACOB'S trouble (Jer. 30:7).

DAH,

What will happen before Jesus' second coming?

Matthew 24:1-14 (NIV) states:

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 ‘Do you see all these things?’ he asked. ‘Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.’

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. ‘Tell us,’ they said, ‘when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?’

4 Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth-pains.

9 ‘Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
​

Will these calamities happen to Christians immediately before Christ's second coming and 'the end'?

Oz

 

[DAH]

Harvest,

Welcome to CyB. I trust you have an edifying time here.

The formulation of Dispensationalism as a distinct theology is of fairly recent vintage - 200 years old.

"Irishman, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) is unquestionably the father of modern
dispensationalism. Darby came from a highly honorable family and received an
excellent education. He entered Trinity College, Dublin, at the age of fifteen and
graduated with highest honors as a Classical Gold Medalist at age eighteen....

"The most well known feature of dispensational theology is the much-debated pretribulational rapture doctrine" (Thomas Ice, A Short History of Dispensationalism).
​

Would you please make your posts MUCH shorter and keep them to 1 or 2 points at the most? Otherwise, I get bored with reading your posts. I'm being honest.

Oz

Shorter - sure - your retort of Darby is wrong. You really should research it a bit more.

Professor Watson - Colorado University:

“William Watson’s comprehensive research in Dispensationalism Before Darby demonstrates the historical fallacy in the frequent claim that elements of dispensational theology such as the pretribulation rapture, only came into existence in the early 1800s. Watson’s worth is well worth the read.”

It's hundreds and hundreds of years older than Darby's work. Fact.

Fact checking: here is Professor Watson's presentation on his hisrorical findings - disproving the often incorrect summary of the history of dispensationalism you cited

If you're not into video lectures - you can quickly read evidence dating back to the 1st century on dispensationalism here: The Real History of Dispensationalism | Dispensationalism | Covenant Theology

Short enough?

 

[DAH]

DAH,

What will happen before Jesus' second coming?

Matthew 24:1-14 (NIV) states:

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 ‘Do you see all these things?’ he asked. ‘Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.’

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. ‘Tell us,’ they said, ‘when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?’

4 Jesus answered: ‘Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth-pains.

9 ‘Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
​

Will these calamities happen to Christians immediately before Christ's second coming and 'the end'?

Oz

The 2nd coming follows the 7-year tribulation. The church won't be here to experience the verses cited above.

The 2nd coming Jesus sets foot on Earth. We meet him in the air when the church is caught up. There is no blessed hope in being included in God's wrath. If words have meaning - a blessed hope is exactly that.

 

[charity]

Hello @Harvest 1874

Good to have you aboard.

I have followed the principle of 2 Timothy 2:15 for many years now, and praise God for it. However I am loath to put myself in a box with a name on it, except of that of CHRIST my Saviour. For with names come categorising and disputation, and party spirit, with polarisation: which does despite to the unity of the Spirit which we are to endeavour to keep.
(Ephesians 4)

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[DAH]

Hello @Harvest 1874

Good to have you aboard.

I have followed the principle of 2 Timothy 2:15 for many years now, and praise God for it. However I am loath to put myself in a box with a name on it, except of that of CHRIST my Saviour. For with names come categorising and disputation, and party spirit, with polarisation: which does despite to the unity of the Spirit which we are to endeavour to keep.
(Ephesians 4)

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Amen - no titles, no denominations here. Just a KJV Bible believer. Constantly trying to seek God's will -

Eph 3:9 — Eph 3:10
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

 

[charity]

Welcome to you, too @DAH,

I have read and applauded a recent entry of yours in the thread, 'When is the Holy Spirit received', and look forward to sharing the glorious hope we have in Christ our Head, and all the unique features of our calling, in Him.

May God give us all grace to engage with one another in the same spirit which is urged by Paul in the opening verses of Ephesians 4.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[OzSpen]

Shorter - sure - your retort of Darby is wrong. You really should research it a bit more.

Professor Watson - Colorado University:

“William Watson’s comprehensive research in Dispensationalism Before Darby demonstrates the historical fallacy in the frequent claim that elements of dispensational theology such as the pretribulation rapture, only came into existence in the early 1800s. Watson’s worth is well worth the read.”

It's hundreds and hundreds of years older than Darby's work. Fact.

Fact checking: here is Professor Watson's presentation on his hisrorical findings - disproving the often incorrect summary of the history of dispensationalism you cited

If you're not into video lectures - you can quickly read evidence dating back to the 1st century on dispensationalism here: The Real History of Dispensationalism | Dispensationalism | Covenant Theology

Short enough?

DAH,

I have researched it quite a bit. I have a PhD in NT, so I'm not a novice in eschatology.

For an overview of the historical origins of the pre-tribulation rapture, see Tim Warner, The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine‘, that gives some of the information to which I referred. Also see this article in the theological journal from Dallas Theological Seminary, Bibliotheca Sacra 159, July – September 2002, ‘A Rapture Citation in the Fourteenth Century’.

I will get to listening to and reading your link but I don't have the time at the moment.

Thank you for making your response much shorter. ;)

Oz

 

[DAH]

Sounds great - I'll check it out as well. Professor Watson's research was completed last year. I believe he's delved deeper in historical archives than just about anyone else. I suspect you will be fascinated by his findings. It certainly lays to rest a Darby argument for a creation timeline.

 

[OzSpen]

The 2nd coming follows the 7-year tribulation. The church won't be here to experience the verses cited above.

The 2nd coming Jesus sets foot on Earth. We meet him in the air when the church is caught up. There is no blessed hope in being included in God's wrath. If words have meaning - a blessed hope is exactly that.

DAH,

They are your assertions, opinions, and you provided not one Scripture to support them. Without documented evidence, I have no basis for considering them.

In Matt 24:1-14 (NIV), Jesus spoke with the disciples - believers - about the destruction of the temple (vv 1-2). Then the disciples came to him and asked privately, '... What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?' (v. 3). They were not now asking about the AD 70 destruction of the temple, but Christ's second coming and the end of the age.

Then Jesus spoke of the deceivers, false teachers/prophets, wars, nations rising against nations, famines and earthquakes, but the end has not yet come (vv 4-8).

'Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of [Jesus]' (v 9). Who is the 'you' to whom Jesus is speaking? The disciples (and us by proxy since it is recorded in the NT).

Then follows the falling away - the apostasy of believers.

Note v 22: 'If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened' (NIV). So, the elect believers will be on earth for the days until Christ's second coming to be shortened. This verse makes no sense unless the believers/elect are on earth and experiencing the horror preceding Christ's second coming.

Horrific consequences will be experienced by believers prior to Christ's second coming. That's what Matt 24 teaches.

There is sound biblical evidence for belief in historical premillennialism, i.e. post-tribulation rapture. See my article: A pre-millennial, post-tribulation end times understanding

Oz

 

[DAH]

Uhm - okay. God, who forgives us of ALL our sins and dispenses grace will for some unknown reason punish us in wrath.

That is a bent view of a God that died for our sins.

God has a well documented history of removing those he finds righteous from His wrath. He took Noah and his family to safety prior to inflicting wrath on an unbelieving world. He took Lot and his family out of Sodom before inflicting wrath - foreshadowing a rapture of his Body - the Church. You are, IMO, mixing Kingdom doctrine for Israel with Grace doctrine for today's church. It's like reading someone else's mail and applying the message to yourself. Their promises, laws, and curses are not ours. The church, the body of Christ, was a mystery - hid from the world since the world began. The verses you cited were recorded before the mystery gospel was revealed. Words have meaning - the Bible says no one, not even the prophets or the angles, knew about the mystery - therefor it could not have been written about before mid Acts.

There is significant scripure to support a pre trib catching away of the church. I suspect based on the tone at the beginning of your reply that you would research it with a closed mind though.

Never the less - rapture doctrine has no change on how salvation is received. When we are looking down on the world from Heaven as God dishes out wrath - we can talk more about it then.

 

[DAH]

DAH,

They are your assertions, opinions, and you provided not one Scripture to support them. Without documented evidence, I have no basis for considering them.

In Matt 24:1-14 (NIV), Jesus spoke with the disciples - believers - about the destruction of the temple (vv 1-2). Then the disciples came to him and asked privately, '... What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?' (v. 3). They were not now asking about the AD 70 destruction of the temple, but Christ's second coming and the end of the age.

Then Jesus spoke of the deceivers, false teachers/prophets, wars, nations rising against nations, famines and earthquakes, but the end has not yet come (vv 4-8).

'Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of [Jesus]' (v 9). Who is the 'you' to whom Jesus is speaking? The disciples (and us by proxy since it is recorded in the NT).

Then follows the falling away - the apostasy of believers.

Note v 22: 'If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened' (NIV). So, the elect believers will be on earth for the days until Christ's second coming to be shortened. This verse makes no sense unless the believers/elect are on earth and experiencing the horror preceding Christ's second coming.

Horrific consequences will be experienced by believers prior to Christ's second coming. That's what Matt 24 teaches.

There is sound biblical evidence for belief in historical premillennialism, i.e. post-tribulation rapture. See my article: A pre-millennial, post-tribulation end times understanding

Oz

Thanks for the link - arguments I've read before, and as you - ones that haven't caused me to change my mind from what I read in the Bible...to date anyway - I'm always open to learning something new though.

Most Bible teachers fail to consistently divide the Bible (2 Tim. 2:15) between the prophetic kingdom program of Israel and the mystery program of the body of Christ. The things that were SPOKEN by the prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21) cannot be the things that were kept SECRET from the prophets since the world began (Rom. 16:25)! This is exactly why many "fundamental preachers" today deny the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Rightly dividing the Bible will keep you from believing in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture and thereby losing your blessed hope (which is a serious error, Col. 1:23). We are instructed by the apostle to the Gentiles to be looking for Christ from heaven-not-the-antichrist-from-earth!

Although the word rapture is not in the KJB, it is certainly a good word to use in describing believers being "CAUGHT UP" (1 Thess. 4:17) off the earth into heaven by the power of God! The body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed through Paul (Eph. 3) and so was the rapture of that body ("I shew you a mystery", 1 Cor. 15:51). The body of Christ is NOT the subject of the PROPHESIED tribulation period (all 7 years are subject of prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27). The rapture of the body of Christ is only revealed in Paul's epistles. We must not confuse our rapture with the mid-trib rapture of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (Rev. 12:5) or the post-trib rapture of the Jews back into their land (Matt. 24:29-31).


Those that hold to a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib view of the rapture accuse those of us who understand our blessed hope of just wanting to escape tribulation. I plead guilty! Anybody in their right mind would want to escape the prophesied tribulation period when God pours out His wrath on the world! However, that is NOT why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do so because it is scriptural. Throughout church history God's people have suffered much tribulation (Acts 14:22) but we are not going through the prophesied tribulation period which will be the time of JACOB'S trouble (Jer. 30:7).


Many Bible teachers today don't seem to understand the stark difference between the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ. Notice the following differences:

The Rapture (1 Thess. 4:17) The Revelation (1 Pet. 1:13)
1. Mystery revealed through Paul (1 Cor. 15:51) 1. Spoken by prophets (Jude 14-15)


2. Before the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:10) 2. After the Tribulation (Matt. 24:27)


3. Christ comes secretly to meet us 3. Christ comes publicly to earth (Rev. 1:7)
in the air (1 Thess. 4:17)


4. No signs precede (Titus 2:13, 1 Thess. 1:10) 4. Signs precede (Matt. 24)



5. Christ comes in blessing (Phil. 3:20-21) 5. Christ comes in judgment (Rev. 19:11)


6. Christ comes for His body (Col. 3:1-4) 6. Christ comes for Israel (Rom. 11:26)


7. Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10) 7. Judgment on Nations (Matt. 25:31-46)


8. Rapture to heaven (1 Thess. 4:17-18) 8. Rapture to Land (Matt. 24:31; Isa. 43:1-7)

FOR EXTRA MEASURE:

John 14:1-3 IS NOT THE RAPTURE!


[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The traditional view:

1. The Father's house is Heaven.

2. When Jesus ascended back to Heaven He started a construction project so that every believer will have their own mansion ("I don't know what it will be like, but if Jesus has been working on it for 2,000 years..."). But, He said “ARE many mansions,” not “WILL BE after I go build them.”

3. Christ is teaching His disciples about the rapture of the Church.


One of the major hinderances to Bible study is reading truth back into a passage before it was revealed. The way this passage is usually taught is a great example of anticipating revelation. It is easy to read the Body of Christ and the rapture into this passage, but the Body of Christ and our rapture were mysteries revealed through the apostle Paul (Eph. 3:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:51-52).


• In my Father's house

Christ referred to the temple in Jerusalem as His Father's house (Jn. 2:16). Some teach that in v.2 Christ is referring to the temple that will be in Jerusalem in the Kingdom Age (Ezek. 40-42). But most of those teachers also claim that the word "mansions" should be translated "rooms.” The King James Bible is perfect and not one word of it should ever be altered. Prophesying of Christ, Isaiah predicted, "And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue..." (Isa. 22:24). The Father’s house is the house of Israel.


• are many mansions

One of the definitions of a mansion is "the house of the lord of a manor.” A manor is "the land belonging to a lord or nobleman.” By saying there were many mansions in His Father's house, Christ was saying that there were plenty of opportunities in redeemed Israel to reign with Him in the kingdom of heaven (see the parable in Lk. 19:11-27). There will doubtless be many mansions in the New Jerusalem which will descend out of heaven after the Kingdom Age (the city will be 1,500 miles square). The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on the gates of that great city (Rev. 21:12).


• If it were not so, I would have told you

Why would the Lord have to make such a statement to His apostles? They had forsaken all to follow Him, so He was reassuring them that it will payoff in the kingdom (Matt. 19:27-30).


• I go to prepare a place for you

Before they could receive this promise, Christ had to prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven. He was going back to the Father by way of the cross. Through His blood He would prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven (Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10). Israel will enter the kingdom under the blood of the New Covenant. Of course, at this point the apostles did not understand the cross (Lk. 18:31-34). The kingdom was “prepared… FROM the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). In regard to the prophetic kingdom program of Israel, Christ is said to be “the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). In contrast, the mystery of the Body of Christ was planned “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4).


One of the definitions for the word place is an "office or official position" (Jn. 11:48). When Christ sets up His kingdom there will be no more place for Gentile kings (Dan. 2:31-35, 44). The twelve apostles will reign as kings, and the faithful Hebrew saints will rule with them over the Gentile nations (Rev. 2:26-27).


• And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Does this sound like 1 Thess. 4:16-17? Things that are similar are not the SAME. Christ never taught the little flock of believing Israel to look for Him to secretly rapture them up to heaven before the tribulation! He prepared them for the tribulation (Matt. 24), and told them to watch for His return to the earth after the tribulation. When He comes comes again to the earth, He will send His angels to gather Israel together from the four winds (Isa. 43:1-7) so they can reign with Him in the land of promise (Matt. 24:29-31).

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks for the link - arguments I've read before, and as you - ones that haven't caused me to change my mind from what I read in the Bible...to date anyway - I'm always open to learning something new though.

Most Bible teachers fail to consistently divide the Bible (2 Tim. 2:15) between the prophetic kingdom program of Israel and the mystery program of the body of Christ. The things that were SPOKEN by the prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21) cannot be the things that were kept SECRET from the prophets since the world began (Rom. 16:25)! This is exactly why many "fundamental preachers" today deny the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Rightly dividing the Bible will keep you from believing in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture and thereby losing your blessed hope (which is a serious error, Col. 1:23). We are instructed by the apostle to the Gentiles to be looking for Christ from heaven-not-the-antichrist-from-earth!

Although the word rapture is not in the KJB, it is certainly a good word to use in describing believers being "CAUGHT UP" (1 Thess. 4:17) off the earth into heaven by the power of God! The body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed through Paul (Eph. 3) and so was the rapture of that body ("I shew you a mystery", 1 Cor. 15:51). The body of Christ is NOT the subject of the PROPHESIED tribulation period (all 7 years are subject of prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27). The rapture of the body of Christ is only revealed in Paul's epistles. We must not confuse our rapture with the mid-trib rapture of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (Rev. 12:5) or the post-trib rapture of the Jews back into their land (Matt. 24:29-31).


Those that hold to a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib view of the rapture accuse those of us who understand our blessed hope of just wanting to escape tribulation. I plead guilty! Anybody in their right mind would want to escape the prophesied tribulation period when God pours out His wrath on the world! However, that is NOT why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do so because it is scriptural. Throughout church history God's people have suffered much tribulation (Acts 14:22) but we are not going through the prophesied tribulation period which will be the time of JACOB'S trouble (Jer. 30:7).


Many Bible teachers today don't seem to understand the stark difference between the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ. Notice the following differences:

The Rapture (1 Thess. 4:17) The Revelation (1 Pet. 1:13)
1. Mystery revealed through Paul (1 Cor. 15:51) 1. Spoken by prophets (Jude 14-15)


2. Before the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:10) 2. After the Tribulation (Matt. 24:27)


3. Christ comes secretly to meet us 3. Christ comes publicly to earth (Rev. 1:7)
in the air (1 Thess. 4:17)


4. No signs precede (Titus 2:13, 1 Thess. 1:10) 4. Signs precede (Matt. 24)



5. Christ comes in blessing (Phil. 3:20-21) 5. Christ comes in judgment (Rev. 19:11)


6. Christ comes for His body (Col. 3:1-4) 6. Christ comes for Israel (Rom. 11:26)


7. Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10) 7. Judgment on Nations (Matt. 25:31-46)


8. Rapture to heaven (1 Thess. 4:17-18) 8. Rapture to Land (Matt. 24:31; Isa. 43:1-7)

FOR EXTRA MEASURE:

John 14:1-3 IS NOT THE RAPTURE!


[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The traditional view:

1. The Father's house is Heaven.

2. When Jesus ascended back to Heaven He started a construction project so that every believer will have their own mansion ("I don't know what it will be like, but if Jesus has been working on it for 2,000 years..."). But, He said “ARE many mansions,” not “WILL BE after I go build them.”

3. Christ is teaching His disciples about the rapture of the Church.


One of the major hinderances to Bible study is reading truth back into a passage before it was revealed. The way this passage is usually taught is a great example of anticipating revelation. It is easy to read the Body of Christ and the rapture into this passage, but the Body of Christ and our rapture were mysteries revealed through the apostle Paul (Eph. 3:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:51-52).


• In my Father's house

Christ referred to the temple in Jerusalem as His Father's house (Jn. 2:16). Some teach that in v.2 Christ is referring to the temple that will be in Jerusalem in the Kingdom Age (Ezek. 40-42). But most of those teachers also claim that the word "mansions" should be translated "rooms.” The King James Bible is perfect and not one word of it should ever be altered. Prophesying of Christ, Isaiah predicted, "And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue..." (Isa. 22:24). The Father’s house is the house of Israel.


• are many mansions

One of the definitions of a mansion is "the house of the lord of a manor.” A manor is "the land belonging to a lord or nobleman.” By saying there were many mansions in His Father's house, Christ was saying that there were plenty of opportunities in redeemed Israel to reign with Him in the kingdom of heaven (see the parable in Lk. 19:11-27). There will doubtless be many mansions in the New Jerusalem which will descend out of heaven after the Kingdom Age (the city will be 1,500 miles square). The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on the gates of that great city (Rev. 21:12).


• If it were not so, I would have told you

Why would the Lord have to make such a statement to His apostles? They had forsaken all to follow Him, so He was reassuring them that it will payoff in the kingdom (Matt. 19:27-30).


• I go to prepare a place for you

Before they could receive this promise, Christ had to prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven. He was going back to the Father by way of the cross. Through His blood He would prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven (Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10). Israel will enter the kingdom under the blood of the New Covenant. Of course, at this point the apostles did not understand the cross (Lk. 18:31-34). The kingdom was “prepared… FROM the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). In regard to the prophetic kingdom program of Israel, Christ is said to be “the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). In contrast, the mystery of the Body of Christ was planned “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4).


One of the definitions for the word place is an "office or official position" (Jn. 11:48). When Christ sets up His kingdom there will be no more place for Gentile kings (Dan. 2:31-35, 44). The twelve apostles will reign as kings, and the faithful Hebrew saints will rule with them over the Gentile nations (Rev. 2:26-27).


• And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Does this sound like 1 Thess. 4:16-17? Things that are similar are not the SAME. Christ never taught the little flock of believing Israel to look for Him to secretly rapture them up to heaven before the tribulation! He prepared them for the tribulation (Matt. 24), and told them to watch for His return to the earth after the tribulation. When He comes comes again to the earth, He will send His angels to gather Israel together from the four winds (Isa. 43:1-7) so they can reign with Him in the land of promise (Matt. 24:29-31).

Long post again!