Dispensationalism is it Scriptural?

[Naomi25]

OH NO! I didn't catch that you are not following a pre-trib rapture. That's sad - it's our blessed hope! It's our only ticket outta here to avoid the almighty wrath of God in the Tribulation - which is clearly going to happen. We live in an age of Grace - all sins forgiven. God is NOT dishing wrath out to us, but he will after we leave. Otherwise, what's the point of the blessed hope - to be here for all the drama and pain?

Hi DAH, I see you are fairly new here, so welcome!
I'm very happy to discuss this with you, but just wanted to mention beforehand that while I do tend to swing towards understanding the bible teaching in one direction on this subject, I'm by far dogmatic on it. I don't see it as a cause for real argumentation, just discussion. I say this because I know a lot of people get very intense when talking about their end time view. And to a point I get that, because it excites me to no end, to think of our Lords return. In that regard it is of utter importance! But we must not let it cause division within the body! So yes, while I might differ from you, I hope the following conversation will be one of discussion and discovery more than anything else!

In replying to your first point here....my first question, that I've always wondered...you might be able to answer for me! I can see no clear distinction in scripture that tells us that the "wrath" that is coming upon the people of the earth for their sin, is not, actually, talking about the final judgement. All those passages, if you read them, could be talking about either. Personally, I think the natural reading leans itself towards the final judgement wrath, as the passage is often balanced by talking about our salvation. Salvation and wrath. Not early escape and wrath.
And I'd have to also point out that as Christians our ultimate blessed hope is Christ's second coming. Titus 2:13 says that the blessed hope is Christ's "appearing". The Greek word used here means "appearing, manifestation, glorious display". Now, I suppose if one needed it to, that could apply only to the Christian's going up at the Rapture. But it could also apply to Christ's final return, his appearing at the end of the age. So...there remains a question there.

This is a great study from Pastor O'Steen out of Georgia. Very simple to understand and read the scripture on your own to verify.

Most Bible teachers fail to consistently divide the Bible (2 Tim. 2:15) between the prophetic kingdom program of Israel and the mystery program of the body of Christ. The things that were SPOKEN by the prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21) cannot be the things that were kept SECRET from the prophets since the world began (Rom. 16:25)! This is exactly why many "fundamental preachers" today deny the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Rightly dividing the Bible will keep you from believing in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture and thereby losing your blessed hope (which is a serious error, Col. 1:23). We are instructed by the apostle to the Gentiles to be looking for Christ from heaven-not-the-antichrist-from-earth!

The English word rapture refers to a state or experience of being carried away. It comes from the Latin word rapto which means to seize or snatch away by force. So, although the word rapture is not in the KJB, it is certainly a good word to use in describing believers being "CAUGHT UP" (1 Thess. 4:17) off the earth into heaven by the power of God! The body of Christ was a mystery that was revealed through Paul (Eph. 3) and so was the rapture of that body ("I shew you a mystery", 1 Cor. 15:51). The body of Christ is NOT the subject of the PROPHESIED tribulation period (all 7 years are subject of prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27). The rapture of the body of Christ is only revealed in Paul's epistles. We must not confuse our rapture with the mid-trib rapture of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (Rev. 12:5) or the post-trib rapture of the Jews back into their land (Matt. 24:29-31).

Those that hold to a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib view of the rapture accuse those of us who understand our blessed hope of just wanting to escape tribulation. I plead guilty! Anybody in their right mind would want to escape the prophesied tribulation period when God pours out His wrath on the world! However, that is NOT why I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I do so because it is scriptural. Throughout church history God's people have suffered much tribulation (Acts 14:22) but we are not going through the prophesied tribulation period which will be the time of JACOB'S trouble (Jer. 30:7).

I also don't really understand this, either. I mean...I understand wanting to avoid suffering! But, it seems to me that Christ tells his Church that they will suffer in this world. And we've seen that to be true, have we not? Now...I think I understand that Dispensationalists say that there is a difference between 'wordly' suffering that people go through every day at the hands of other sinful people, or nature...and the judgements that God will throw down upon the earth in the Tribulation...is that right? I suppose that right there is another sticking point to me. Firstly, I just don't really get the whole "I'm going to judge the world with judgements, and then toss those unbelievers in hell where they get more judgements". I mean...don't get me wrong, sinful, unrepentant people will go to hell, but it just always seemed odd to me that God would give them a little "pre taste" on earth first.
But...you say that the 7 years are really for Israel. Well...that I buy a little more. I can see biblical precedent of God using calamity to draw his people back to him. But I still don't see how that immediately requires the Church to just be...gone! Israel has been present on earth while God has been dealing with the Gentiles. You see....whenever I read of Christ's return, it always fits into his last return, not his "rapture" return. The bible talks of his return in conjunction with judgement. Or with this world being burned up and made new. Or with the new Jerusalem coming down. Or the White Throne judgement. I cannot find a natural reading that suggests a separation of 7 years between rapture and the end.

 

[Naomi25]

Many Bible teachers today don't seem to understand the stark difference between the rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ. Notice the following differences:

The Rapture (1 Thess. 4:17) The Revelation (1 Pet. 1:13)
1. Mystery revealed through Paul (1 Cor. 15:51) 1. Spoken by prophets (Jude 14-15)


2. Before the Tribulation (1 Thess. 5:10) 2. After the Tribulation (Matt. 24:27)


3. Christ comes secretly to meet us 3. Christ comes publicly to earth (Rev. 1:7)
in the air (1 Thess. 4:17)

4. No signs precede (Titus 2:13, 1 Thess. 1:10) 4. Signs precede (Matt. 24)


5. Christ comes in blessing (Phil. 3:20-21) 5. Christ comes in judgment (Rev. 19:11)


6. Christ comes for His body (Col. 3:1-4) 6. Christ comes for Israel (Rom. 11:26)


7. Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10) 7. Judgment on Nations (Matt. 25:31-46)


8. Rapture to heaven (1 Thess. 4:17-18) 8. Rapture to Land (Matt. 24:31; Isa. 43:1-7)


John 14:1-3 IS NOT THE RAPTURE!


[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The traditional view: (always question the assumptions! - the gates to Heaven are narrow. Few will study the Word of God.)

1. The Father's house is Heaven.

2. When Jesus ascended back to Heaven He started a construction project so that every believer will have their own mansion ("I don't know what it will be like, but if Jesus has been working on it for 2,000 years..."). But, He said “ARE many mansions,” not “WILL BE after I go build them.”

3. Christ is teaching His disciples about the rapture of the Church.

One of the major hinderances to Bible study is reading truth back into a passage before it was revealed. The way this passage is usually taught is a great example of anticipating revelation. It is easy to read the Body of Christ and the rapture into this passage, but the Body of Christ and our rapture were mysteries revealed through the apostle Paul (Eph. 3:1-12; 1 Cor. 15:51-52).


• In my Father's house

Christ referred to the temple in Jerusalem as His Father's house (Jn. 2:16). Some teach that in v.2 Christ is referring to the temple that will be in Jerusalem in the Kingdom Age (Ezek. 40-42). But most of those teachers also claim that the word "mansions" should be translated "rooms.” The King James Bible is perfect and not one word of it should ever be altered. Prophesying of Christ, Isaiah predicted, "And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue..." (Isa. 22:24). The Father’s house is the house of Israel.

• are many mansions

One of the definitions of a mansion is "the house of the lord of a manor.” A manor is "the land belonging to a lord or nobleman.” By saying there were many mansions in His Father's house, Christ was saying that there were plenty of opportunities in redeemed Israel to reign with Him in the kingdom of heaven (see the parable in Lk. 19:11-27). There will doubtless be many mansions in the New Jerusalem which will descend out of heaven after the Kingdom Age (the city will be 1,500 miles square). The names of the twelve tribes of Israel are on the gates of that great city (Rev. 21:12).

• If it were not so, I would have told you

Why would the Lord have to make such a statement to His apostles? They had forsaken all to follow Him, so He was reassuring them that it will payoff in the kingdom (Matt. 19:27-30).

• I go to prepare a place for you

Before they could receive this promise, Christ had to prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven. He was going back to the Father by way of the cross. Through His blood He would prepare a place for them in the kingdom of heaven (Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10). Israel will enter the kingdom under the blood of the New Covenant. Of course, at this point the apostles did not understand the cross (Lk. 18:31-34). The kingdom was “prepared… FROM the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). In regard to the prophetic kingdom program of Israel, Christ is said to be “the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). In contrast, the mystery of the Body of Christ was planned “before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4).

One of the definitions for the word place is an "office or official position" (Jn. 11:48). When Christ sets up His kingdom there will be no more place for Gentile kings (Dan. 2:31-35, 44). The twelve apostles will reign as kings, and the faithful Hebrew saints will rule with them over the Gentile nations (Rev. 2:26-27).

• And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Does this sound like 1 Thess. 4:16-17? Things that are similar are not the SAME. Christ never taught the little flock of believing Israel to look for Him to secretly rapture them up to heaven before the tribulation! He prepared them for the tribulation (Matt. 24), and told them to watch for His return to the earth after the tribulation. When He comes comes again to the earth, He will send His angels to gather Israel together from the four winds (Isa. 43:1-7) so they can reign with Him in the land of promise (Matt. 24:29-31).

Wait....are you saying that Christians who are also Jews will still have to go through the Tribulation? That their Jewish blood trumps their blood bought regenerated heart? Just trying to clarify...ta.

 

[Naomi25]

I think the ISSUE becomes more complex muddling the simple, when men start LABELING themselves.

A pre-tibber, a dispensalationist, a Calvinist, a Christian, a Universalist, blah, blah.

It makes ones beliefs CURT, limited, when each label has an element of truth in them and a LIMITING aspect of the Lords Truth.

Scripture does not dole out Labels, NOR limit the Lords Truth. It is His TRUTH, the Lord desires a man to BELIEVE and TRUST...whether or not they Understand it.

It has been for centuries MEN that like to physophically decide the Extent and Limits of the Lords Truth and then LABEL it, and then Adopt the Label and Slap that LABEL on their foreheads For all to know and see.

The Lords way is simple....They do not require man made Labels. And a man can not even KEEP the Lords way, without the Power of the Lord within the man.

Pretrib, midtrib, end of trib, during the rest of your natural life cycle, what you eat, where you live, who you eat with.........what man can kill your body, slander you....

ALL irrelevant, for a man WHO IS IN Christ, and the Holy Spirit IN the man....!!

Such a man IS already alive forever and forever with His Lord, His God.

If the Lord desires to drag you though the tribulation....He is with you.
Which means, whatever You are being subjected TO, so also is His Spirit.

If He desire to cause you to sustain the hardships of locusts, of lack of food, of chaos, wars, stench of sulfur........He is with you, and either enduring the same, or overpowering the effects to Him and to those that ARE HIS.

For one thing...God has His Earth to deal with, aside from its occupants. The Earth itself is Corrupt. It's already sustained it's Water cleansing, and WILL be subject to His Purifying FIRE. And Like with the FLOOD, so also will many men who rejected the Lord, BE affected by Gods Wrath upon the Earth.

And Like with the FLOOD, many were destroyed in the FLood and a few were raised above the Havoc of the Flood, to the face of the waters and saved.
So also shall shall it be the SAME, when the Wrath of God is upon the Earth with FIRE, many will be destroyed in the Fire, and few will be raised above the face of the earth and saved.

Trust in the Word of God, and the gifts He has prepared and given to men who believe in His Christ, the Lord Jesus.
Mankinds limiting Labels...pfft!

God has a LABEL for men...It's called His People ISRAEL....(and I do not mean Isralies, a Land, or Jacob....I mean the name of the Lords People, IS ISRAEL)...and has a name for each man that IS His People for their forehead.

God Bless,
Taken

You know...I tend to agree with you on the label thing! And yet, as men (or women) we just tend to want them! Why is that?
Anyway, the more I think, read, see, pray, etc, the more I reckon I'm a "bitza". You know...bit of this, bit of that...If anyone asked I'd have to say I'd fit mostly into the Amil camp. But I don't really follow the 'replacement theology' thing...I think God has plans for Israel yet. But that's not unusual for people in the Amil camp, contrary to what a lot of people think. But I'm also thinking that the Dispensationalists might be on the money when it comes to Isaiah 17, Eziekiel 38...things are looking interesting in Syria at the moment in terms of those prophecies.
Does one actually need to fit neatly into a particular school of thought? I don't know. Anyway, I think that as long as we sincerely long for Christ's return and do our best to be true to scripture, it doesn't matter if we're off a bit on the how's or where's of his return. All we need to know is it will happen, and it will be glorious!

 

[Harvest 1874]

I suppose the biggest problem I have with Dispensationalists is the way they seem to feel that they can pin-point, almost to the day, (I'm being a bit factious there) the beginnings and ends of all the past "D's", with the exception of this final one (which they conclude we just happen to be living in right now...... which BTW, so has every generation that has ever lived and died before us, believed).

This one, they have conveniently left "open-ended."

Yet, hundreds (perhaps, thousands) of their proponents and adherents have written enough books predicting the exact date of "The End" to fill the ark. That "End" would be the closing of this final "D"..... but it never happens. Neither do all "The Antichrists" they have identified as "the one" who will usher in our demise by becoming the One World Ruler.

There are several other problems I see with their whole fantasy, such as their sad attitude of complete "Defeatism." They appear to give more power to Satan than they do to God, because they preach that the Gospel we were told to preach is really pretty impotent, and is not going to do much more than eventually "save" only a tiny portion of the world..... at which point God will just finally give up, and end the whole mess.

But, this will do for now.

As I had stated previously I don’t consider my-self a “Dispensationalist” although I do believe in dispensations, i.e. various worlds (ages) and specific time periods and etc. as these are all taught in the scriptures. As for pin-pointing certain dates that’s simply a matter of study of prophecy, something which many Christians avoid like the plague, howbeit the Lord would not have added prophecy (especially that relating to the end of the age) within the Holy Scriptures if it were not necessary for the child of God, remember the words of the Apostle, “ALL scripture is profitable… to the man of God”. Are we to presume that prophecy is not a part of ALL scripture?

Prophecy is never certain until its fulfillment, so predicting future events with any “exact” certainly is complicated at best; however this does not preclude its study anyway. The Lord desires his children to be inquisitive, seekers of wisdom and understanding.

Many prophecies have already been fulfilled (such as the beginnings and endings of previous dispensations and ages, specific events such as the, flood, the beginning of the Law dispensation, Israel’s “seventy years” of desolation, the First Advent and etc.) it’s not all that hard to find specific dates on these events (not exact days, but specific years now that’s possible), a good beginning would be through study of the True Bible Chronology which will greatly aid in this endeavor.

As for your final remarks regarding “Defeatism”, we (Bible Students) don’t believe in any such thing; I think you’ve been listings to too many doomsayers, especially some of our Seventh Day Adventist friends.

 

[Harvest 1874]

THAT is familiar...

LOL...right, eweee long post, 5 minutes out of my life just GONE!! Gimmie the short and quick, who has time for precise and detailed...
LOL..

God Bless,
Taken

"who has time for precise and detailed..."

Well I would fandom to guess a good bible student, especially one who is truly desirous of understanding, as for the mere curiosity seeker, the lazy or lukewarm Christian, the fault finder or the skeptic they generally have short attention spans anyway, and thus learn little in season.

"A sluggard does not plow in season so at the harvest time he looks but finds nothing." Prov 20:4

 

[Willie T]

As I had stated previously I don’t consider my-self a “Dispensationalist” although I do believe in dispensations, i.e. various worlds (ages) and specific time periods and etc. as these are all taught in the scriptures. As for pin-pointing certain dates that’s simply a matter of study of prophecy, something which many Christians avoid like the plague, howbeit the Lord would not have added prophecy (especially that relating to the end of the age) within the Holy Scriptures if it were not necessary for the child of God, remember the words of the Apostle, “ALL scripture is profitable… to the man of God”. Are we to presume that prophecy is not a part of ALL scripture?

Prophecy is never certain until its fulfillment, so predicting future events with any “exact” certainly is complicated at best; however this does not preclude its study anyway. The Lord desires his children to be inquisitive, seekers of wisdom and understanding.

Many prophecies have already been fulfilled (such as the beginnings and endings of previous dispensations and ages, specific events such as the, flood, the beginning of the Law dispensation, Israel’s “seventy years” of desolation, the First Advent and etc.) it’s not all that hard to find specific dates on these events (not exact days, but specific years now that’s possible), a good beginning would be through study of the True Bible Chronology which will greatly aid in this endeavor.

As for your final remarks regarding “Defeatism”, we (Bible Students) don’t believe in any such thing; I think you’ve been listings to too many doomsayers, especially some of our Seventh Day Adventist friends.

So, to address the only really important part of all that interchange...... When the end comes, which do you think will be the greater number of people, those who believe (or believed in history) or Unbelievers? THAT was my "defeatist" attitude comment. I have met very few Christian people who think Believers will outnumber Unbelievers. I think Believers will outnumber Unbelievers by a ratio of about 5 to 1.

 

[Harvest 1874]

So, to address the only really important part of all that interchange...... When the end comes, which do you think will be the greater number of people, those who believe (or believed in history) or Unbelievers? THAT was my "defeatist" attitude comment. I have met very few Christian people who think Believers will outnumber Unbelievers. I think Believers will outnumber Unbelievers by a ratio of about 5 to 1.

The difficulty here Willie is that you ascribe to the teachings of the church nominal who preach that now is the only day of salvation, that if you're not a believer (now during the Gospel age) all is lost. The scriptures to the contrary are quite emphatic that God will not only have ALL men to be saved (Saved from the Adamic curse), but likewise that he will have ALL men to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4

"My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure." Isa 46:10

"The word that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Isa 55:11

Since God does not propose to save men on account of ignorance, but "will have all men to come unto the knowledge of the truth"; and since the masses of mankind have died in ignorance; and since "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (Eccl. 9:10); therefore God has prepared for the awakening of the dead, in order that they might be brought to knowledge, faith and salvation. Hence his plan is, that "as ALL in Adam die, even so ALL in Christ shall be made alive, but each one in his own order"--the Church, the Bride, the body of Christ, first; afterward, during the Millennial age, all who shall become his during the Mediatorial reign, the Lord's due time for all to know him, from the least to the greatest. 1 Cor. 15:22

 

[Phoneman777]

Preterist are those who maintain that many of the prophecies in the Revelation as well as those given in our Lord’s Great Prophecy have already been fulfilled, in the past, most at the end of the Jewish age.

Futurist on the other hand maintain that many if not all of these same prophecies are either presently being fulfilled or are still in the future to be fulfilled.

Dispensationalists contend that the Divine purpose in connection with mankind is a progressive one, one which the Lord has been outworking since the beginning of man’s creation, a “mystery” which has been hidden from the worldly wise one embracing many ages and dispensations, one which is not only attested to by the scriptures, but by the very facts of history itself.

I often see references to these 3 particular prophetic schools of thought, but sadly most people are totally ignorant of what is, I believe, the only true interpretation of prophecy: HISTORICISM.

Why is this so? After all, it was HISTORICISM which exposed the RCC as Satan's headquarters on Earth and was taught EXCLUSIVELY by Protestants for over 300 years since the time of the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. It was through the preaching of HISTORICISM that the RCC was dealt such devastating blows, which prompted their Counter Reformation, during which time the Jesuit Order was formed, and it is all too common knowledge that Jesuit priests were responsible for both Futurism AND Preterism - which teachings were designed to get the heat of Rome and direct our attention to the past or future for the rise of Antichrist. Today, thanks to the very successful campaign of ecumenical leaders who find exposing the errors of Catholicism not worth the negative fallout to their ecumenical desires, Protestants don't even realize the facts of where the various prophetic interpretation arose. C. N. Darby himself was swept off his feet by Futurism and it was he who introduced the "Secret Rapture" theory, which is not found anywhere in Scripture, but only in the minds of those who wish to remain willfully ignorant of the facts. Historicism teaches that, barring certain specific details which remain clouded in somewhat mystery, God has fully revealed in the prophetic visions of Daniel, Revelation, etc., the path upon which the church would travel - no blind spots.

 

[Willie T]

The difficulty here Willie is that you ascribe to the teachings of the church nominal who preach that now is the only day of salvation, that if you're not a believer (now during the Gospel age) all is lost. The scriptures to the contrary are quite emphatic that God will not only have ALL men to be saved (Saved from the Adamic curse), but likewise that he will have ALL men to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4

"My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure." Isa 46:10

"The word that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Isa 55:11

Since God does not propose to save men on account of ignorance, but "will have all men to come unto the knowledge of the truth"; and since the masses of mankind have died in ignorance; and since "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave" (Eccl. 9:10); therefore God has prepared for the awakening of the dead, in order that they might be brought to knowledge, faith and salvation. Hence his plan is, that "as ALL in Adam die, even so ALL in Christ shall be made alive, but each one in his own order"--the Church, the Bride, the body of Christ, first; afterward, during the Millennial age, all who shall become his during the Mediatorial reign, the Lord's due time for all to know him, from the least to the greatest. 1 Cor. 15:22

Where did you get all those crazy ideas from that I believe those things? Frankly, all that fluster you just posted made hardly any sense, at all. (It took me three reads, and I am still not sure what the heck you said.)

 

[Taken]

You know...I tend to agree with you on the label thing! And yet, as men (or women) we just tend to want them! Why is that?
Anyway, the more I think, read, see, pray, etc, the more I reckon I'm a "bitza". You know...bit of this, bit of that...If anyone asked I'd have to say I'd fit mostly into the Amil camp. But I don't really follow the 'replacement theology' thing...I think God has plans for Israel yet. But that's not unusual for people in the Amil camp, contrary to what a lot of people think. But I'm also thinking that the Dispensationalists might be on the money when it comes to Isaiah 17, Eziekiel 38...things are looking interesting in Syria at the moment in terms of those prophecies.
Does one actually need to fit neatly into a particular school of thought? I don't know. Anyway, I think that as long as we sincerely long for Christ's return and do our best to be true to scripture, it doesn't matter if we're off a bit on the how's or where's of his return. All we need to know is it will happen, and it will be glorious!

Labeling is a conspiracy...lol...
It's the big pharmakia....if you can LABEL it, you can high dollar sell a Pill for it....!!
And it is such an effective tool of Politics too!
Divide the people, and the "servants" who are self-proclaimed "rulers" always win the control...lol lol lol

No clue what Amil is, nor need to know.
I have a Label, it's called MY Name! And have no problem saying I am a student, follower, faithful believer, of My Lord and My God Christ Jesus.

The fact is the Lord does want all IN CHRIST to be on the same page....His page.

The fact that there are umpteen bazillion different denominations, tells you, there is a whole lot of man-made interpretations infesting the Word of God. Add to it the Labels and individual doctrines and protocols and it does have a similitude to a cultish undertone.

There are a few Scriptures, I never hear anyone talk about that pretty much make all these man-made interpretations, and "great" philosophical "thinkers", so exalted and "their thinking" rountinely adopted, and this pope speaks, and 10 million people oooh and ahhh in agreement, until the next pope speaks and changes it, and again instant agreement. It is the same in politics, pharmakia, work force, sports, etc. People are followers, but for some reason, once they begin following Christ, all of a sudden they ARE the teacher WITH ALL the answers....from where?
Other mens philosophies, a blip on the TV, a Pastor.....astounding eh?

So anyway, that is my take. Boo- Labels!!
And TRUST in the Lord. Speak what He speaks and learn how to understand His Word, according to Him....not the world.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Willie T]

Now you're just starting to talk kind of crazy, Harvest 1874 .

 

[Harvest 1874]

Where did you get all those crazy ideas from that I believe those things? Frankly, all that fluster you just posted made hardly any sense, at all. (It took me three reads, and I am still not sure what the heck you said.)

You're the one who brought up believers verses non-believers and the ratio between the two, one would naturally assume from your remarks here that this was your belief that at the end of the age there's going to be a great number of non-believers, and what is the typical view or fate of these non-believers as prescribed by the professing church, is it not that they are lost?

As the Lord said, Eyes they have, but see not, ears but they understand not. The truth is not for everyone at this time, some (the few) are able to receive now the rest blinded by the God of this world will not be able to receive it until the next age when the Adversary has been bound in the bottomless pit.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I often see references to these 3 particular prophetic schools of thought, but sadly most people are totally ignorant of what is, I believe, the only true interpretation of prophecy: HISTORICISM.

Why is this so? After all, it was HISTORICISM which exposed the RCC as Satan's headquarters on Earth and was taught EXCLUSIVELY by Protestants for over 300 years since the time of the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. It was through the preaching of HISTORICISM that the RCC was dealt such devastating blows, which prompted their Counter Reformation, during which time the Jesuit Order was formed, and it is all too common knowledge that Jesuit priests were responsible for both Futurism AND Preterism - which teachings were designed to get the heat of Rome and direct our attention to the past or future for the rise of Antichrist. Today, thanks to the very successful campaign of ecumenical leaders who find exposing the errors of Catholicism not worth the negative fallout to their ecumenical desires, Protestants don't even realize the facts of where the various prophetic interpretation arose. C. N. Darby himself was swept off his feet by Futurism and it was he who introduced the "Secret Rapture" theory, which is not found anywhere in Scripture, but only in the minds of those who wish to remain willfully ignorant of the facts. Historicism teaches that, barring certain specific details which remain clouded in somewhat mystery, God has fully revealed in the prophetic visions of Daniel, Revelation, etc., the path upon which the church would travel - no blind spots.

I would have to say that dispensationalism not as its extremist followers teach it but as it is simply found in the scriptures pretty much presents the true historical view of the unfolding of the divine plan, a study of which would reveal all the most notable events recorded throughout history all the way up to the great falling away, the rise of Pacy (the Antichrist) and the setting up of the abomination of desolation, etc. etc.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Now you're just starting to talk kind of crazy, Harvest 1874 .

I'm talking crazy... I'm completely lost as to the point of your last post in regards to the ratio between believers and non-believers, what was the point of the question.

You know I'm just kidding with you Willie, no harm.

 

[Taken]

"who has time for precise and detailed..."

Well I would fandom to guess a good bible student, especially one who is truly desirous of understanding, as for the mere curiosity seeker, the lazy or lukewarm Christian, the fault finder or the skeptic they generally have short attention spans anyway, and thus learn little in season.

"A sluggard does not plow in season so at the harvest time he looks but finds nothing." Prov 20:4

You do understand that was sarcasm toward complainers of long posts with detailed information?

It's the modern day. Everyone want to know everything, but they do not want to be bothered to Learn it.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[charity]

Those 3 words I BOLDED take us right back to showing that "the verse that says it all" is often only each individual's interpretation. As you stated, the verses hypothetically posted were clear TO THE PERSON WHO POSTED. But that does not mean other people saw it the same way.

I think you know how the Westboro Baptists would see Luke 14:26, even if they read the context of the entire chapter.... but is that how you see it? Of course it isn't.

I can see your point, @Willie T, and can see that a word of explanation is also needed, to confirm the reason for using a quotation.

I am not aware of the Baptists you refer to, unfortunately, so cannot respond to that.

Thank you, Willie T.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Harvest 1874]

You do understand that was sarcasm toward complainers of long posts with detailed information?

It's the modern day. Everyone want to know everything, but they do not want to be bothered to Learn it.

God Bless,
Taken

No problem, you should know that I was responding to the quote, and what it implied, not to you personally.

 

[charity]

Yes, I would like to know why you all appear to object to dispensationalism so much. What specifically do you object to?

 

[OzSpen]

Uhm - okay. God, who forgives us of ALL our sins and dispenses grace will for some unknown reason punish us in wrath.

That is a bent view of a God that died for our sins.

DAH,

What happened to those 5 missionaries in Ecuador in 1956? Are you suggesting that Jim Eliot and Nate Saint, forgiven sinners by God's grace, suffered at the hands of the Auca Indians because of God's wrath towards them? The fact is that many people in the history of the church have suffered horrific persecution and trauma because they were Christian.

I urge you to get the emailer from Voice of the Martyrs to read of the terrible things happening to Christians around the world TODAY.

Take a read of Foxe's Book of Martyrs (available online) to see what has been experienced by Christians throughout Christian history. How many Christians have been slaughtered during the current Middle East war?

To think that God is going to shield us from these trials is counter to biblical Christianity (see James 1:2-4 NASB). God has a profound purpose in trials for the believer.

Oz

 

[Willie T]

I can see your point, @Willie T, and can see that a word of explanation is also needed, to confirm the reason for using a quotation.

I am not aware of the Baptists you refer to, unfortunately, so cannot respond to that.

Thank you, Willie T.
In Christ Jesus
Chris