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Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Episkopos, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    I'm interested in any quotes. I know C. Larkin says the same. But the Nicene Creed affirmed an eternal kingdom, not 1000 year kingdom as the official church position.
     
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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    "They" have some historic doctrinal truth, or nobody would listen to them. But the challenge is to find direct quotes from scripture supporting "any" of their numerous end times claims.
     
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  3. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello there, @Dave L,

    Perhaps you should actually read some of their literature, such as Dr E.W. Bullinger's, 'Commentary on Revelation', and other such works: rather than base your accusation on the arguments taking place in a forum situation, where room for thorough explanation is limited, and the knowledge possessed by those who take part perhaps equally so.

    * By my own experience I cannot support your accusations, and regret your obvious bias.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  4. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    If you stray beyond what Jesus and the NT writers say about Israel, the Kingdom, the restoration of Israel and more, you add to the book of Revelation which is what Dispensationalists do in their two peoples/physical kingdom errors.
     
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  5. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello again, @Dave L,

    More accusation! I suggest that you confine yourself to your own study of the Word of God, and leave, 'them' (including myself) to 'theirs', thereby leaving the outcome in God's hands: for He alone can make righteous judgements, based on knowledge.

    Praise His Holy Name!


    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  6. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    If you or any Dispensationalist can produce one scripture directly supporting a 7 year tribulation. Or a pre-trib rapture. Or a restored Roman Empire, or scripture directly saying Russia will attack Israel, you win. Only one direct quote from scripture on any of these popular beliefs will do.
     
  7. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello there

    Winning or losing is of no concern of mine, Dave, I have no intention of entering into debate on any of those issues, for I am satisfied with what the Lord has brought me into, in Christ Jesus. Such debates as you mention pale into insignificance in the light of the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus, and the fulness of the Church of the One Body of which He is the Head.

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  8. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    If you can come up with any scripture supporting their end time claims, you can have genuine faith in the matter. Faith comes from hearing the word. But until then you have nothing to trust but them.
     
  9. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Dave L,

    - A 7 year tribulation.
    - Pre-tribulation rapture
    - A restored Roman Empire
    - Russia will attack Israel

    I have not heard of the last two, but the 7 year tribulation period, and the pre-tribulation 'rapture' I will come back to you on if you like. I will come back tomorrow, God willing.

    With love in Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Direct quotes only. Not interpretations.
     
  11. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    And Where did your understanding come from?

    Your minds logical conclusion?
    Or
    Did Jesus' Word say, Do not literally believe Everything He said?

    My Doctrine? I have repeatedly said Jesus has a Doctrine, and I fine His Doctrine Sufficient.

    Others have made the same claims, while also claiming....hey ...


    (BTW Ya sure Jesus is the Truth....but, but, but, not everything he said is "exactly (literally) true.)

    If i was new to learning about Jesus, and was being taught THAT....I'd be thinking what kind of weird religion is Christianity...to claim to Believe Jesus....but not really...because he makes up things that are not "literally" true.

    No. It becomes a matter of WHAT is leading you. Your Mind or the Lords Spirit.

    No. It is the concept of men saying "literal and not literal" repeatedly about umpteen scriptures.

    I find nothing hilarious about the ignorant things men say.

    You don't know me, nor do I believe the word of God taught you to claim what Jesus taught was ever not true.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  12. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello Dave,

    You will have to receive what I am capable of, and no more, I'm afraid.

    * Re the pre-tribulation rapture:-

    'And now I stand and am judged
    .. for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
    .... Unto which promise our twelve tribes,
    ...... instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
    ........ For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.'

    (Act 26:6-7)


    'For this cause therefore have I called for you,
    to see you, and to speak with you:
    because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.'

    (Act 28:20)


    * The verses above show that the one hope that dominates the period covered by the book of Acts is Israel's hope .

    'And again, Esaias saith,
    There shall be a root of Jesse,
    .. and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles;
    .... in Him shall the Gentiles trust.
    ...... Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing,
    ........ that ye may abound in hope,
    .......... through the power of the Holy Ghost.'

    (Rom 15:12-13)


    * Romans 15:12,13 (above) links this hope with the millennial chapter of Isaiah 11:1-16, making it quite clear that it is to be realised on the earth.

    'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;
    so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days
    shall the sun be darkened,
    .. and the moon shall not give her light,
    .... and the stars shall fall from heaven,
    ...... and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    ........ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
    .......... and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
    ............. and they shall see the Son of man
    coming in the clouds of heaven
    ................ with power and great glory.
    And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
    .. and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds,
    .... from one end of heaven to the other.'

    (Mat 24:27-31)


    'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
    .. that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
    .... shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven
    .. with a shout,
    .... with the voice of the archangel,
    ...... and with the trump of God:
    ........ and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    .......... Then we which are alive and remain
    ............ shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
    .............. to meet the Lord in the air:
    ................ and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'

    (1Thess. 4:15-17)


    * Those who share in it return to the earth with the returning Lord and the holy angels, at the parousia that He reveals so clearly in Matthew 24:27-31.

    * 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 teaches that after meeting the Lord in the air, those who have part in that event will return to the earth with Him.

    'And at that time shall Michael stand up,
    .. the great prince which standeth for the children of Thy people:
    .... and there shall be a time of trouble,
    ...... such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
    ........ and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
    .......... every one that shall be found written in the book.
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    .. some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    .... And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
    ...... and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.'

    (Dan 12:1-3)


    * The Lord descends with a 'shout' (keleusma) which means, 'the word of command'. The other occurrence of this word, comes in the Septuagint of Prov. 20:27, 'With the voice of the archangel'. The archangel's name is Michael (Jude 9) and in Daniel 12:1 he is linked with Israel (the children of Daniel's people) and the Great Tribulation, and this definitely fits the time described by the Lord in Matthew 24 and Israel's hope.

    * This is confirmed by the next statement 'and with the trumpet of God'. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 links the believer's hope in the Acts period with resurrection at the last trumpet. Now 'the last trumpet' presupposes a series, and the only series of trumpets in the New Testament are in the Book of Revelation. The 'last trumpet', the seventh, leads us to the same point as 1 Thessalonians 4, the realization of the kingdom of the Lord on the earth (Rev. 11:15) which most clearly takes place at His parousia or Second Coming.

    'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
    .. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    .... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
    ...... for the trumpet shall sound,
    ........ and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
    .......... and we shall be changed.
    ............ For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
    .............. and this mortal must put on immortality.'

    (1 Cor 15:51-53)


    * The hope of the church after the Acts period as revealed in Paul's prison epistles, is not the parousia of Matthew 24 or 1 Thessalonians 4, with it's earthly goal, but is a hope that takes us to the glory of heaven's holiest of all.

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris

    Note:
    I am indepted to a book by my dearly loved brother-in-Christ, Stuart Allen,
    'The Early and Pastoral Epistles of Paul'.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Thanks for taking time with this. I don't see any direct mention of a 7 year tribulation or pre-trib rapture. But you read these concepts into passages that do not lend themselves to that interpretation. For example; Paul places the Rapture after the resurrection of the Just. And Jesus places this on the last day. Direct quotes follow.

    “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17)

    “Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:24)


    “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)


    “Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.” (Daniel 12:2)


    “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV
     
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  14. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    If the resurrection is on the last day, literally, why does it speak of two resurrections? One, which if you are in, you will not face the 2nd death, and then another one 1000 years later?
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29) = two resurrections on the same day.

    The New Birth is the first resurrection:

    “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:” (Ephesians 2:1–2)

    “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6) As seen in Revelation 20.

    To be completed with the resurrection of our bodies on the last day.
     
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  16. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    But it says the rest did not come to life again until after the 1000 years complete.
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    We are alive in Christ on earth and in heaven. This is the first resurrection to be completed on the last day in the resurrection of our bodies. The rest of the dead will not be resurrected until then. = two resurrections already started with the righteous, delayed for the wicked. But both happening on the last day. We are Christ's body, seated with him in heaven, as in Rev 20.
     
  18. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @stunnedbygrace,

    'But the rest of the dead lived not again
    until the thousand years were finished.
    This is the first resurrection. '

    (Rev. 20:5 )

    'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
    on such the second death hath no power,
    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
    and shall reign with him a thousand years.'

    (Rev. 20:6

    * This is the first of two resurrections associated with the 1,000 years during which the overcomers, will reign with Christ. Christ will continue to reign, but their reign with Him will last for that period.

    * The second of these two resurrections will take place after the 1,000 years.

    * Revelation 20 :1-5 will supply the details of these two resurrections and who will have part in them. However there will be other resurrections, as you will know.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  19. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello Dave L

    I must contradict you, for there is no resurrection when we are born from above.

    Those two references speak of our identification with Christ, in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, but that is in God's sight, in spirit: we have yet to be reckoned as being 'asleep in Christ' before that day of God's choosing, when we will appear with Him in glory. Our life is hid with Christ in God until that day.

    To speak of it as a resurrection is deceptive.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Dave, no offense, but if scripture commands that as much as is in us we are to be at peace with all men then you and I had better to stay away from each other. You incessantly make demands for people to quote scriptures but leave out their interpretations, as if you alone have the sole right to do that, which I find unbelievably offensive in the extreme.

    If I desire to discuss something with you I will post you directly. Otherwise, I suggest you not tempt me.

    Asking as courteously as I know how.
    Hidden In Him
     
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