Dividing Between Soul and Spirit
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I have heard in my church that if we serve God we have more energy and strength to do his will. So in a way it's a type of rest to be in his Holy Spirit and the fruits of His Holy Spirit. Love and Peace being the one's I notice the most (Galatians 5:22-25).
The rest that’s referred to there is the millennium reign of Jesus to come, aka, Gods rest for His people.
Look up the sabbath-millennium doctrine taught by the early church, such as by Barnabas.
Like HIH said, context is everything in this passage. It is directly referencing the Israelites in the wilderness and how their unbelief prevented their entry into the Holy Land, and instead a generation died in the wilderness with the exception of Caleb and Joshua, who believed in the Lord overcoming the giants of the Land. This is a passage on unbelief, and unbelief is the root of all sin. Unbelief in the providence of God to overcome those giants in the land, And hence why I am always pointing to this growing and increasing reliance on his providence. This is what Resting in the Promises of God entails. This event in the exodus of the Israeli People is a Metaphor for the Christian journey as well.
You are not wrong in your approach here as this passage is pointing to resting in the finished work of Christ on the cross, but it is also pointing to trusting in fully in the providence of God and his promises to us. So He promises us victory over sin not just controlling our sinful desires by discipline and asceticism and suppression of the flesh. By "Letting go and letting God", He brings us victory, and this is just one of the ways we learn to trust in the providence of God, By resting in His finished work on the cross, we are learning to trust in Him carrying out his promises in our life.
Think of it this way. You are a convict found guilty in a court (I use this analogy because scripture does) We are guilty, but the judge justifies us, meaning he declares we are free. We can believe this Justification (Faith) or we can deny this justification (Lack of faith). From that Point on we are free because we have been declared free, But we still have our sinful impulses as new believers. But God not only promises us freedom from the punishment of sin, but also freedom from the desire to sin, This is the Promise we have to learn to trust that He will provide us a way not just to suppress sin but to overcome sin, to be totally free from sin. (John 8:34-36)
This is the unbelief this passage is referring to. Israel was the people of God, They were saved already out of Egypt by the Passover lamb, a picture of Jesus on the cross, the lamb of God, Yet they did not enter the Holy Land because of unbelief in the providence of God. Many in the church today are in the same mold, and see the giants in their life of flesh and sin and cannot fathom overcoming them, they are living in unbeleif and a lack of reliance on the Providence of God to finish the work he has started in us and to bring us to total and complete repentance.... In a sense we make excuses why we can't, but what we fail to see is that God can through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in our life.
This is why I continually point this out as a threat to the Christian in these end times. Many will not enter God's resting place, The Millennial Kingdom because of unbelief. This is the sin of Laodicea Partial belief, and unbelief. Complacency, thinking they are in need of Nothing, yet they have locked Christ out of their life, from finishing the work he has started.
This is not a "Works" Gospel i am preaching, But one of faith to faith (Romans 1:17) It is based on the doctrine of Resting in the finished work of Christ on the cross, and learning to stand on the promises of God in full belief, that he will finish what he has started in us as not just as the author of our faith but the finisher as well (Hebrews 12:2).
God bless.
There is a great difference between the soul and the spirit, and the soul can be divided and should be divided from the spirit. Moreover, 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 shows us that unless the soul is subdued by the spirit and submissive to the spirit, the soul is against the spirit and contradicts the spirit. These verses say, “But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually. But the spiritual man discerns all things, but he himself is discerned by no one.” Soulish implies the meaning of natural or psychological. A soulish man is a natural man, a man living in the soul. The soul is absolutely impotent in spiritual matters.
Good morning!
So then the context in the "with the Lord, a day is like a 1000 years" passage in Peter is referring to Jesus' return to earth.
But the context in Hebrews is entering into God's promised rest, and how those who believe enter in.
I look at the plain sense of Hebrews, Those who believe do enter in, something that happens in association with our believing, we believe, so we rest.
It seems you are looking at the day/millennium in Peter, refering to Jesus' return, but then use this to interpret Hebrews as rest not now, but in the age to come.
Peter is answering the skeptics, and is telling us that our measure of time is not like God's measure of time.
So what I don't see is what tells you that this rest isn't now? That it's later, and refers to "the average believer in the millennium"? Whatever "average" is referring to.
I can guess . . . entering the promised land is like entering the kingdom age, I've heard that idea before. Some look at it as entering into Christian life. I've also heard other things. Of course the sabbath rest points many people to the kingdom age, but Colossians 2 points us to Christ in the Sabbath, which is His shadow.
Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about God giving them "rest with us", but like you said about context, I think that context is clear, about persecution.
The Hebrews contexts is about receiving His promise in belief, and entering into His rest, just as He also rested from all His works.
Boy! Hard to keep a thread on topic! Particularly when I find the discussion so interesting!
Much love!
To me, this is the rest we have now.
We put down our own works. I don't have to try to figure everything out. I don't have to be perfect. Living my life in righteousness and Godliness are God's gift to me, not requirements by which I will hopefully be saved.
For me this is the rest. I rest knowing that God is here with me right now, that being accepted in Christ Jesus does not change because He does not change. I rest knowing that my Creator loves me, has proven Himself over and over to me, but especially in Jesus' death, for me.
His yoke is easy, because the work is His. When we trust Him, rivers of living water gush from our hearts.
Come to me, and I will give you rest, Jesus promised. I come to Him, and He gives me that rest.
Which brings me back to my topic,
Dividing between soul and spirit.
The reason I posted this was to hopefully discuss how the soul and the spirit are different, and how the Word of God shows what parts of us are the soul, that is, the psyche of the fleshy man, and what is the spirit, that is, the new creation who is born from God.
The Bible tells us that the fruit that is of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. So everything else must be from that other tree, right?
Much love!
It's an interesting point of view, now I'm wondering how we're not talking about the same thing. What characterized the "millennial rest"? The rest I'm talking about is the cessation of my own efforts to reconcile to God, to remain reconciled, to be fruitful in my life, any of this. Instead, to focus my trust in my Father, and do with love what presents itself to me to be done, whether addressing some circumstance, or responding to an inner direction, I rest knowing Jesus works beside me, and His work is what is getting the job done.
Can you tell me more about what you mean?
Much love!
I've noticed many times when I've felt positively bouyed up as I'm doing what I know God wants. Other times, I'm pushing against fatigue and pain.
I notice that when I'm not looking at whether something feels easy or difficult, but instead on trusting the God is working good for me, because He loves me, then the particular circumstance doesn't matter so much.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having energy! But I more value having communion, and I even find that there can be very deep communion during very difficult circumstances.
I find the flesh fears suffering, but the spirit knows it brings me closer to God. I find that the flesh balks and bristles, but the spirit opens more to our Father.
Peacefulness during affliction shows the Spirit inside us.
Much love!
I couldn't really find in your post where you showed from the context that this restis the "millennial kingdom" rest, and not a rest we enter now.
This seems to be the ongoing discussion between you and I, is this for us now? Of from a time to come?
You write this as if it is somehow different from,
Do you see something different here? I don't. Word it however you like, God has promised to make us like Jesus, and I for one believe that. Death and sin were conquered on the cross. Life is given me in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is new life now, eternal life, just as He promised.
Ah, coming back to topic, dividing between soul and spirit, I'm sure I know what you are saying here. I want to use these words to show a distinction.
"We" do not have sinful impulses. That is, if you identify yourself in your new creation. That which is born of God does not sin. Is this you? Then you do not have sinful impulses. Therefore it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me. Are you the sinner?
This is the kind of confusion that I'm hoping to discuss in this thread. This whole "millennial rest" is an offshoot.
Do we - children of God - have sinful impulses? I say no, we do not. We are created patterned after God, sharing His nature, and no, we don't want to sin.
So what do we say about those thoughts that come into our heads? The emotional energy that pushes us towards them? We know they are sin. And we know we don't want them. Unbidden they come, and bigger, and stronger, but this is soul, not spirit.
If we define ourselves according to the Bible, we are created righteous, our new life is Jesus' life in us, therefore, thoughts of sin, feelings pushing us towards it, this IS NOT the new man!
We come to understand this, and choose to walk in Christ.
Will we enter His rest now?
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Average as in Common. As some would say, the body catholic, although I refrain from using that term, LoL.
Let me say that I held to the position you favor for many years. It's only more recently that I changed my view. How about if we take a deeper look by going through the whole Chapter? That might shine more light on it. I can go first or you can. Doesn't matter to me.
Yes, I know. When I say millennial rest, I am referring to entering into that time together with Christ after His return where I belong to His kingdom and am sharing in the fruits of it. I'm referring to entering the thousand year reign with Him, not figuratively but in the literal, after the Antichrist has been deposed and all things have been put under His feet, and He establishes His throne in Jerusalem.
When we find things in the Word we cannot receive, cannot understand, cannot reconcile to our beliefs, cannot harmonize with other passages, this to me is a big indicator to make sure I'm submitted to the Word, not trying to import my own ideas, pet views, things like that.
I've come to look for harmony in the Scripture in the smallest detail, and largest overview.
Much love!
The resting place of God is both NOW and future, as it is eternal. "Today" (Hebrews 4:7) every day is an opportunity to not harden our hearts which is what prevents us from entering his resting place. But it also speaks of a future resting place we strive for (Hebrews 4:11).
You are not wrong in your understanding of rest, but it is deeper than this in scope. Much like the sabbath itself is a symbol of God, and has practical aspects for us physically, there are also spiritual aspects to this rest that were a foreshadow of Christ and the cross and a foreshadow of the Millennial kingdom and the promised land for Christians. Our life here on this earth is a wilderness journey in which we must learn to fully rely on the providence of God to overcome the giants in the land, those giants are no longer physical beings but principalities and powers in high places that belittle us and beat us up with guilt and insufficciency of our worth and until we fully rest in His provision we will never overcome them. We make excuses why we cannot overcome them instead of trusting in God that he has overcome them already we just have to trust in those promises.
God Bless.
What does it look like to enter that rest now. That's what you were saying, right?
As far as the chapter, we can do that if you want. Or you can go to those particular parts that lead you to the millennium.
I'm aware of a number of places people look at, for instance, as the promised land gave the rest to Israel, so that they were no longer wandering in the wilderness, people compare that the millennial, but I question whether that changes the meaning of the passage which would exist otherwise, that being, the rest we enter now.
Not keeping a Sabbath, rather, having come to Christ.
How do we "enter that millennial rest now"?
Much love!
I think you underestimate what I mean when I say "rest".
Something that I think also shows the difference between flesh and spirit is the fruitfulness of our activity. Does what we are doing actually fit the situation? Or is it what we think we should be doing, but isn't really on target?
I'm not really talking about physical rest.
Much love!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Very good assessment. Let me expand on it.
Soul = Mind, Will, Emotions, Personality (range of habits), talents, the invisible you.
Spirit = The New Eternal you which takes all that is good of you. As the mind is highly integrated with the brain, our spirit is our purified self. We are born with a dead spirit or spiritual compartment if your will. We can think of this as a God compartment within us that is empty, like a cell phone without a battery. Then we are born again, and God dwells in this place.
Man is sort of designed like the Old Testament Temple. It was a physical template, divided into different sections, it had a Most Holy Place (the Holy of Holies), where God dwelled, behind the veil. Only the High Priest (without sin for one week) could enter. It was where the Ark of the Covenant was as well. When our High Priest (Jesus) enters our hearts (the Temple), He enters into the Courtyard, then into the Holy Place and then lifts the veil of the Most Holy Place so we can see ourselves and the world and have communion with Him.
The Most Holy Place is our spirit, where God dwells - In Christ.
The WORD (sharper than a two-edged sword) goes in and divides the soul and spirit.
The Holy Place represents our soul.
The spirit and soul are the heart of man. It is highly integrated, yet separate, part of us is pure and the other part not. When we die our pure spirit moves on leaving the flesh behind.
The Courtyard represents our body. Our soul and body (the flesh) is where sin dwells.
The Table of Showbread contained the bread and wine that represents our fellowship (communion) with God.
The Lampstand was always lit in the Old Temple. Since Jesus is the Light, we are now able to see spiritually.
The Bronze Laver was used for cleansing before entering the tabernacle to perform sacrifices. It represents the cleansing of the new believer, the baptism by water and our willingness to receive forgiveness and spiritual cleansing.
As you pointed out, the spirit wars against the flesh. God communes with us in our Temple and transforms us into the likeness of Jesus. This takes time. The seed (Word) that was planted needs to be watered and as it grows our spirit, it produces fruit that is demonstrated in our character, behavior, actions, communications with others. The Light shines on our sins and so eventually extinguishes it, we die to our old selves and learn to walk in the spirit.
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