1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Divine selection

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by guerrillasaint, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. guerrillasaint

    guerrillasaint New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Romans Paul talks about Devin Selection. He says (and I am paraphrasing) that God choose who he wanted to save before eternity. Still it is the duty as a christian to spread the word about Jesus and call to the lost sheep. I want to know since God hasn't called everyone to be his chosen people are they really rejecting Jesus? When I was in Bible Study Fellowship yesterday the lectures said that a person can not want to be saved or be with God unless he moves them to want. So if he hasn't moves some others to want are they really rejecting him?
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    207
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    God only moves you when you ask him to move you. He knows who he can trust. I'll back this up scripturally tomorrow, it's late for me now.
     
  3. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    207
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I have a clearer head tonight, so here we go:You've touched on what the Apostle Paul said in several places but these particular verses comes to mind:Ephesians 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Ephesians 1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:There's not much to mistake with the wording:
    proorizo -- pronounced: pro-or-id'-zo from 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine: KJV -- determine before, ordain, predestinate.
    Strong's #G4309Even in the old testament, YHVH told us the very same thing:Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.There's a definite trend here. However, I draw your attention to a couple of things. The Lord knows whom he can trust; he knows your heart, he knows mine, and he knows the heart of anyone that reads this thread.He knew/knows who he can count on for various roles in life - particularly those such as the prophet Jeremiah and the Apostle Paul, for instance. This gets into a different subject for another day, but he has reason to trust them.We are all predestinated but it goes far beyond our understanding. God blessed us by clueing us in on it though, and the answer is contained in the context of the above verses. We're called to do his work and we're each here for a reason - His reason. That doesn't mean that you have a free pass to do nothing. He told us to be the salt of the Earth. YHVH will use us and how do we not know that our ministry may awaken another from his spiritual slumber? Therein lies the reason; that we are the salt of the Earth.Matthew 5:13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
     
  4. Broken Crusader

    Broken Crusader New Member

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, to add to the conversation.....I know I am a seeker, I always have been. My pastor talks about seekers all the time, and how we are who Christ wants to help build His church and proclaim the Good News.Conversly, my ex, and some of u know of her, just the other day, when I asked how things are between her and God, she said, " I dont believe in God" It's very sad, but she is not, and has never really sought God. I know, I believe, God can do great things through anyone even her, but she definitly doesnt fit the mould of who God wants. How does all that fit? Salvation is for everyone right? I know, who ever wants it, but surely God tries to reach all of us. no?
     
  5. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    207
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    He tries, but that doesn't mean they always will listen. Everyone will have a chance, not everyone will take it, unfortunately. I pray it will happen, but I know that not everyone will accept him.That's why it's written:Matthew 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.I'm not labeling you 'ex' or anyone swine, but the analogy here is clear.
     
  6. guerrillasaint

    guerrillasaint New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    see my question is does God really try to reach out to everyone? And if he doesn't is that rejecting him? I am by no means saying he is wrong in his selection I am not questioning that. I am just wondering wither I could continue to tell those how aren't Christians or assuming that they are rejecting God when they weren't chosen in the first place. Now I know I can't say if they are chosen or not, nor will it stop me from talking to them about Christ. I just won't use that kind of language or assume that they are purposefully dismissing God's call on their life.
     
  7. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    207
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Your answer will be found in I Timothy 2:3-4 and in the book of Acts. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Acts 17:30-32And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. There's your answer. Everyone has a chance, whether they take it or not is not God's doing or fault.
     
  8. Fox

    Fox New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the Bible, conversion is represented as a miraculous, life transforming process - a process that is impossible without the direct, active intervention and participation of G-d. In fact, He initiates the conversion process. He first opens the minds of those He is calling, or inviting, to conversion so they can begin to understand the Scriptures with a clarity and depth they could never attain on their own.This wonderful, miraculous process usually begins when the individuals G-d is calling hear, or read, the truth of G-d accurately explained from His true servants. Our Creator begins to open their minds at that time to comprehend the true gospel of Yeshua. G-d ’s Word now begins to make sense to them. Just as a picture emerges when the pieces of a puzzle are fitted together, so can those whom G-d is inviting to be converted begin to understand the Holy Scriptures. This is the miracle of G-d’s calling.The idea that one must be "chosen" originated with Yeshua Himself, who told His disciples that "many are invited, but few are chosen" (Mattityahu 22:14). The concepts of being invited and being chosen are both biblically legitimate, but they are rarely understood and routinely misused. "Many are invited, but few are chosen." G-d ’s desire is to give salvation - eternal life -to all mankind. "For G-d did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" (Yochanan 3:17). The key, however, is that not all are being saved at this time, in this age (Romans 11:7-8, 25-26; Ephesians 1:7-10). G-d chooses a person to receive eternal life only when he learns and accepts the truth, repents and is baptised. The truth, Yeshua explained, is what G-d reveals through His Word, the Bible (Yochanan 17:17). To become acceptable to G-d, all must recognise and accept G-d’s Word as the main source of truth. Our Creator "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:1-4). After learning the fundamentals of G-d’s truth, one must repent . "ADONAI is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but for everyone to come to repentance" (2 Kefa 3:9). There are no exceptions. G-d wants everyone to repent .When G-d offers them an opportunity to serve Him, the choice is theirs. That choice is not merely a one-time decision. They must commit themselves to that choice and persevere to the end (Mattityahu 24:13). At the end of this age the rulers who resist Yeshua "will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful" (Revelation 17:12-14). Notice that those who are with Yeshua are not just called and chosen; they are also faithful. Being called and chosen is not the end of the story. We must remain faithful to our calling to be saved. At times we may be called upon to prove our faithfulness by enduring trials and overcoming obstacles to our faith as evidence of our continued commitment to serving G-d. His truly converted people are designated in the Scriptures as "the body of the Messiah" (1 Corinthians 12:27) and "the church of the living G-d" (1 Timothy 3:15).G-d has made it clear who His real disciples are. They are first called to repentance by having their minds opened to accurately understand the teachings of the Scriptures. If they respond by choosing to surrender their will to G-d so His Spirit can guide both their hearts and their conduct, they are chosen for salvation - to have a part in His eternal kingdom. Then all who remain loyally obedient to Him are the true "called, chosen and faithful" people of G-d.
     
  9. Fox

    Fox New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was thinking about your second post, guerillasaint, and I think I see where you're coming from - not people who have deliberately rejected G-d or Yeshua but who have never "known" Him. It reminded me of something that I'd read and I finally tracked it down this morning, so I'll share it here:"What happens to people who never had the opportunity to come to that understanding and make that commitment? Are they the ones Yeshua spoke of who will be "resurrected to judgment"? What about infants and other young children who die long before they can understand or gain the maturity to receive the Holy Spirit and seek G-d’s Kingdom? What about people who live and die in nations where they may never even hear the name of Yeshua, much less make any kind of commitment to Him? What about people who adhere to high moral values but don’t hold to any particular religious beliefs or commitment? What will happen to them and when? Will the treatment these people receive be just? Is G-d fair? Will He give everyone equal opportunity to receive eternal life? Or is He selective, offering eternal life only to some?Let’s begin with what John describes as the first resurrection. He speaks of "those who are Christ's," some of whom had suffered martyrdom and all of whom had rejected false religions and deceptive teachings. He writes: "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of G-d. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection2 (Revelation 20:4-6NIV).Notice that some come to life after the 1,000-year reign of Christ. Those given eternal life at the beginning of that period, at Christ’s return, represent the first resurrection. But here we plainly see that others do not come to life again until 1,000 years have passed. If only one resurrection is to occur, John would simply have referred to this event as the resurrection. However, since it is called the first resurrection, at least one more resurrection must follow.Death does not discriminate. The righteous and sinners all die. Jesus used two widely known tragedies of His day to acknowledge that death can be arbitrary and to draw an important lesson from it: "There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all the other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish’" (Luke 13:1-5).The details are unclear. Apparently some were viciously slaughtered by Roman soldiers during a religious ceremony at the Temple in Jerusalem. On another occasion a tower collapsed, killing some. Both incidents are examples of the random deaths of innocent people. Jesus says these people weren’t any worse than others. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Similar events are all around us. We’re especially disturbed when children’s lives are cut short by accidents, crime or illness. We shake our heads in bewilderment when an airplane crashes, a house burns, a bomb shatters a shopping center, business or school. Victims of these tragedies were in the wrong place at the wrong time; G-d didn’t single them out for punishment. As Solomon explained, we are all subject to the uncertainties of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11-12).So what about all those who died and were never called to salvation? This group represents the majority of all people who have ever lived. What is their eternal fate? John said those not resurrected at the time of Jesus’ return ("the rest of the dead") will live again at the end of the Millennium: "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished" (Revelation 20:5). A few verses later comes a further description of the scene of this"resurrection: "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before G-d, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and the grave delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works" (Revelation 20:11-13).G-d will give sufficient time to those resurrected after the 1,000 years to prove by their actions and decisions that they do indeed believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and are willing to submit to His way of life, surrendering their own will. Jesus said that the person who will receive the gift of eternal life—who will "enter the kingdom of heaven"—must be one who "does the will of My Father in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). Those who are part of this second resurrection will have their minds opened to the truth of God’s plan. They will have the opportunity to decide whether they will do the Father’s will or not. After having had their spiritual eyes opened and this truth revealed to them, they will be judged according to their works, their response to their new understanding. They will be given the same responsibility that was extended to others at other stages of God’s plan. They will have the opportunity to develop faith in Jesus Christ and demonstrate their belief and commitment by the way they live.This resurrection is not a second chance for salvation; for them it is their first opportunity to really know God. Those in this resurrection are "judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books". "
     
Loading...