Divorce and Remarriage

[Soverign Grace]

Marriage has always been a public announcement of commitment between a man and woman for life. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding/marriage. Sexual relationships do not constitute a marriage. Jesus told the promiscuous woman at the well with 5 husbands, her present boyfriend was not her husband.

In the OT Moses allowed divorce and remarriage on grounds of adultery because the State executed adulterers. In Matthew 19:9 Jesus assumes this in the "except clause". But if the execution does not take place, any remarriage, even of the innocently divorced wife from the adulterous husband constitutes adultery. Not only for them, but for those they marry.

Christians always fled violence so separation is good but remarriage is not. Forgiveness is mandatory but reconciliation is based on wisdom in avoiding abuse.

It's interesting because I was reading that when two people have sexual relationships they're "joined" - I don't know if this is true or not. I know the Bible says "two shall become one" - does this mean only in marriage or can it mean in a sexual relationship? There is so much fornication nowadays that we must really have a lot of spiritual cross-currents going on.

 

[Soverign Grace]

I think we need our minds renewed by the word and it happens depending how much time each spends in the word.

That makes sense. I've been trying to study more regularly. I did years ago but some things happened and I got lazy I guess. Now I'm trying to get into daily bible reading again. Have you ever heard of the Preterist doctrine? I always wondered about it because my mother and sister both listened to Aruthur Melanson on the radio and were believers in Preterism.

 

[Dave L]

It's interesting because I was reading that when two people have sexual relationships they're "joined" - I don't know if this is true or not. I know the Bible says "two shall become one" - does this mean only in marriage or can it mean in a sexual relationship? There is so much fornication nowadays that we must really have a lot of spiritual cross-currents going on.

This is not marriage. It is sexual uncleanness, fornication, adultery etc. Marriage in the bible is always a public announcement of commitment between a man and woman. There are adulterous marriages, and homosexual marriages. But it is of a strictly legal nature.

 

[Butterfly]

DaveL chose to post this thread sovereign grace, and the nature of debate is sometimes to look at the different sides of the arguments. I knew you had a problem on the other thread because you apologised to DaveL - I personally do not agree with Dave, I am pretty sure he knows that, but it doesn't mean that the subject should be avoided.
On the one hand I get what he means about I forgiveness, I divorced before God challenged me to forgive my husband- but the reality in my case was that two months after we seperated he placed a ring on another woman's hand and said he was going to marry her. He asked me if I would divorce him ( something that I had not considered or even had time to think about ) he knew he had no grounds to divorce me. He was not a Christian ( I came to faith after I married ). As far as I was concerned, before God, my marriage was already over - my husband had been unfaithful with different women over a 16year period - I only knew of the present day adultery , and I forgive him the first one I knew about and our marriage continued for some years, but the trust had gone.
I divorced him because I felt I had little choice in the matter, if he wanted to remarry it would have be spiteful to withhold that. I was an emotional wreck at the time. That's what I meant about it bringing about some soul searching.
Rita

 

[Dave L]

That makes sense. Have you ever heard of the Preterist doctrine? I always wondered about it because my mother and sister both listened to Aruthur Melanson on the radio and were believers in Preterism.

It's probably a passing exploration in an attempt to escape Dispensationalism and Premillennialism.

 

[Soverign Grace]

We can get into arguments over the letter. We are seeking the letter, are basically saying...no, but we want a ruler over us.

But if we seek the Spirit of the word, and walk in the Spirit, not demanding something for our flesh, something to rule over our flesh, like other men, then we will not fulfill the lusts of our flesh.

If I think of a clearer explanation, ill post it...

Yes - and we shouldn't. Thanks for pointing that out. Have you ever heard of the Preterist doctrine? I've wondered about it for a number of years. My mother and sister were believers in it, but not me. I always wondered why those who I knew were spiritually regenerated could hold such disparate views.

 

[Dave L]

DaveL chose to post this thread sovereign grace, and the nature of debate is sometimes to look at the different sides of the arguments. I knew you had a problem on the other thread because you apologised to DaveL - I personally do not agree with Dave, I am pretty sure he knows that, but it doesn't mean that the subject should be avoided.
On the one hand I get what he means about I forgiveness, I divorced before God challenged me to forgive my husband- but the reality in my case was that two months after we seperated he placed a ring on another woman's hand and said he was going to marry her. He asked me if I would divorce him ( something that I had not considered or even had time to think about ) he knew he had no grounds to divorce me. He was not a Christian ( I came to faith after I married ). As far as I was concerned, before God, my marriage was already over - my husband had been unfaithful with different women over a 16year period - I only knew of the present day adultery , and I forgive him the first one I knew about and our marriage continued for some years, but the trust had gone.
I divorced him because I felt I had little choice in the matter, if he wanted to remarry it would have be spiteful to withhold that. I was an emotional wreck at the time. That's what I meant about it bringing about some soul searching.
Rita

Divorce is an empty law today not being part of the New Covenant. But separation is a wise thing to do in cases of abuse and for the prevention of disease. But remarriage = having two or more spouses.

 

[Butterfly]

Marriage has always been a public announcement of commitment between a man and woman for life. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding/marriage. Sexual relationships do not constitute a marriage. Jesus told the promiscuous woman at the well with 5 husbands, her present boyfriend was not her husband.

In the OT Moses allowed divorce and remarriage on grounds of adultery because the State executed adulterers. In Matthew 19:9 Jesus assumes this in the "except clause". But if the execution does not take place, any remarriage, even of the innocently divorced wife from the adulterous husband constitutes adultery. Not only for them, but for those they marry.

Christians always fled violence so separation is good but remarriage is not. Forgiveness is mandatory but reconciliation is based on wisdom in avoiding abuse.

Thank you
Would you agree that Jesus forgave the women ?
Also, in the Old Testament people had more than one wife - so if they married for life, and publically, how did that pan out- or were Abraham, David ect going against God. Despite David committing adultery, and having more than one wife, he went on to be known as ' a man after Gods heart '
So forgiveness was given - he had to face the consequences and suffer though.
I am curious as to why you will not answer my direct question about where you think I stand ?
Rita

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think we need our minds renewed by the word and it happens depending how much time each spends in the word.

I don't know about that...its like...who spent more time in the word than anyone else? Wasn't it the men who studied and devoted their whole lives to it? And yet Jesus told them they didn't understand scripture.

So is it the amount of time? Or is it something else?

To me, its like...those pictures that everyone else says, oh yeah...I see the pretty young woman in the hat now! And you're looking at the picture and all you see is an ugly old witch with a wart on her chin. And then if you stare long enough, something happens...your focus changes somehow and you suddenly see the young woman. And if you look at the picture later, you can't see her any more but are just seeing the witch again!

So when we look at a picture, we see black ink on a white background. But it is also possible, if instead, we look at it as if it were a black background with light areas, to see a completely different picture!

And seeing in spirit is kind of like that. We go in and out of it.

Its very difficult to explain.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes - and we shouldn't. Thanks for pointing that out. Have you ever heard of the Preterist doctrine? I've wondered about it for a number of years. My mother and sister were believers in it, but not me. I always wondered why those who I knew were spiritually regenerated could hold such disparate views.

The focus is wrong. Its the best I can explain.

 

[Soverign Grace]

DaveL chose to post this thread sovereign grace, and the nature of debate is sometimes to look at the different sides of the arguments. I knew you had a problem on the other thread because you apologised to DaveL - I personally do not agree with Dave, I am pretty sure he knows that, but it doesn't mean that the subject should be avoided.
On the one hand I get what he means about I forgiveness, I divorced before God challenged me to forgive my husband- but the reality in my case was that two months after we seperated he placed a ring on another woman's hand and said he was going to marry her. He asked me if I would divorce him ( something that I had not considered or even had time to think about ) he knew he had no grounds to divorce me. He was not a Christian ( I came to faith after I married ). As far as I was concerned, before God, my marriage was already over - my husband had been unfaithful with different women over a 16year period - I only knew of the present day adultery , and I forgive him the first one I knew about and our marriage continued for some years, but the trust had gone.
I divorced him because I felt I had little choice in the matter, if he wanted to remarry it would have be spiteful to withhold that. I was an emotional wreck at the time. That's what I meant about it bringing about some soul searching.
Rita

I see where you're coming from - you did nothing wrong, but your spouse did. In those instances you have no real choice. I imagine that is very painful and you didn't have control over the situation - your husband left. I felt responsible because Dave did not offer the information - I asked him. He wasn't posting everywhere condemning people. We know that's wrong because Christ gave us the story of the woman caught in adultery. "Woman, where are your accusers?" We've been in accusatory churches and I know how damaging it is. But Dave only answered me - that's what I wanted to point out. He was not going around condemning, he answered a question truthfully. There is a difference.

It's a hot topic - one that seems to cut deep so I sometimes think a topic is too hot to handle since there are strong emotions tied to it. In my family politics cause great division like this. I was talking to a non-relative at a family member's house and he got very loud and aggressive. Someone told me he's a leftist. So I could see why we disagreed since I'm a right Conservative Christian. So I dropped it. But something that I find interesting is how much Christians disagree.

I see it in my own walk - as I've said, my mother and sister both believed in the Preterist doctrine. I do not. So how could 3 spiritually regenerated believers differ so greatly? I don't know. Maybe it does have to do with how much one spends in the Word - I don't know. I respected my own studying yet I respected my sister and mother's - I don't have the answer yet.

It's interesting that no one brought up the Catholic doctrine. I don't know if there are Catholics on here. I was raised Catholic but left. I do believe there are some true Catholics but the Vatican is evil. I don't know if anyone saw the building built, but it looks like a snake. I don't know how they're fooling so many people. I guess that's why Scripture said that "the road is wide that leads to destruction, the road is narrow that leads to life and few there be that find it.

 

[Dave L]

I don't know about that...its like...who spent more time in the word than anyone else? Wasn't it the men who studied and devoted their whole lives to it? And yet Jesus told them they didn't understand scripture.

So is it the amount of time? Or is it something else?

To me, its like...those pictures that everyone else says, oh yeah...I see the pretty young woman in the hat now! And you're looking at the picture and all you see is an ugly old witch with a wart on her chin. And then if you stare long enough, something happens...your focus changes somehow and you suddenly see the young woman. And if you look at the picture later, you can't see her any more but are just seeing the witch again!

So when we look at a picture, we see black ink on a white background. But it is also possible, if instead, we look at it as if it were a black background with light areas, to see a completely different picture!

And seeing in spirit is kind of like that. We go in and out of it.

Its very difficult to explain.

I guess my impression is that people trust their "specialists" in the word and assume they've got it covered.

 

[Dave L]

I see where you're coming from - you did nothing wrong, but your spouse did. In those instances you have no real choice. I imagine that is very painful and you didn't have control over the situation - your husband left. I felt responsible because Dave did not offer the information - I asked him. He wasn't posting everywhere condemning people. We know that's wrong because Christ gave us the story of the woman caught in adultery. "Woman, where are your accusers?" We've been in accusatory churches and I know how damaging it is. But Dave only answered me - that's what I wanted to point out. He was not going around condemning, he answered a question truthfully. There is a difference.

It's a hot topic - one that seems to cut deep so I sometimes think a topic is too hot to handle since there are strong emotions tied to it. In my family politics cause great division like this. I was talking to a non-relative at a family member's house and he got very loud and aggressive. Someone told me he's a leftist. So I could see why we disagreed since I'm a right Conservative Christian. So I dropped it. But something that I find interesting is how much Christians disagree.

I see it in my own walk - as I've said, my mother and sister both believed in the Preterist doctrine. I do not. So how could 3 spiritually regenerated believers differ so greatly? I don't know. Maybe it does have to do with how much one spends in the Word - I don't know. I respected my own studying yet I respected my sister and mother's - I don't have the answer yet.

It's interesting that no one brought up the Catholic doctrine. I don't know if there are Catholics on here. I was raised Catholic but left. I do believe there are some true Catholics but the Vatican is evil. I don't know if anyone saw the building built, but it looks like a snake. I don't know how they're fooling so many people. I guess that's why Scripture said that "the road is wide that leads to destruction, the road is narrow that leads to life and few there be that find it.

My position is we need to repent from sin and not live in it.

 

[Soverign Grace]

The focus is wrong. Its the best I can explain.

Arthur Melanson taught it - I don't know if you ever heard of him. I doubt he's still on the radio.

 

[Dave L]

Thank you
Would you agree that Jesus forgave the women ?
Also, in the Old Testament people had more than one wife - so if they married for life, and publically, how did that pan out- or were Abraham, David ect going against God. Despite David committing adultery, and having more than one wife, he went on to be known as ' a man after Gods heart '
So forgiveness was given - he had to face the consequences and suffer though.
I am curious as to why you will not answer my direct question about where you think I stand ?
Rita

God provided for David in the death of Uriah but the consequences remained severe. Bathsheba was instrumental in bringing forth the Messiah. I've known divorced and remarried believers who lost their spouse to disease. Or remarried after their spouse died. God works things out in ways so that none of his people will ever be ultimately overcome by sin.

 

[Soverign Grace]

I don't know about that...its like...who spent more time in the word than anyone else? Wasn't it the men who studied and devoted their whole lives to it? And yet Jesus told them they didn't understand scripture.

So is it the amount of time? Or is it something else?

To me, its like...those pictures that everyone else says, oh yeah...I see the pretty young woman in the hat now! And you're looking at the picture and all you see is an ugly old witch with a wart on her chin. And then if you stare long enough, something happens...your focus changes somehow and you suddenly see the young woman. And if you look at the picture later, you can't see her any more but are just seeing the witch again!

So when we look at a picture, we see black ink on a white background. But it is also possible, if instead, we look at it as if it were a black background with light areas, to see a completely different picture!

And seeing in spirit is kind of like that. We go in and out of it.

Its very difficult to explain.

Can you explain that? I can't believe that you just said that. I was reading yesterday "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day..." and pondering what exactly it meant. I've been striving to get to a stronger place with God and I wondered what that verse meant. What does "in the Spirit" mean? I've had times that I've felt face to face with God and yet other times that seem dry and unproductive. How does a believer get "in the Spirit" - I prayed about that yesterday and have many times. I've had a strong desire to step higher or closer to God, is the best way to describe it. But at times it seems elusive.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Its like the man who Jesus gave sight to and then asked him what he saw. The man said, well I see something moving around. I think it's trees...wait a minute, it can't be trees because trees don't move that way so...its men! I think I'm seeing men moving around!

And then Jesus did something else and the man then saw even more clearly.

Does it take God two tries to get a healing right? Or is even this true life story a parable for us?

What about the 3 men Who received their sight? They all ran off in excitement crying, I can see! I can see! Then only one of them returned to Jesus.

If a blind man has never seen anything and then he can suddenly see something, he might assume he is now seeing, even if his sight is really very dim and blurry. And how would he know he was only seeing very dimly when he only has complete darkness to compare it to?

 

[Butterfly]

My position is we need to repent from sin and not live in it.

Well I can only presume you don't want to answer my question- which is fine, but please , if you will. If you believe divorce is a sin, and a person should repent and not live in it - how on earth do you propose that they ' not live in it ' you cannot just become undivorced !
Rita

 

[Dave L]

Well I can only presume you don't want to answer my question- which is fine, but please , if you will. If you believe divorce is a sin, and a person should repent and not live in it - how on earth do you propose that they ' not live in it ' you cannot just become undivorced !
Rita

I think there are two ways to deal with this. The easy way is to separate as in any divorce but for good reasons. Or trust that God will resolve the situation. This could lead to a forceful separation by death, or desertion of the unbeliever, or worse.

 

[Butterfly]

God provided for David in the death of Uriah but the consequences remained severe. Bathsheba was instrumental in bringing forth the Messiah. I've known divorced and remarried believers who lost their spouse to disease. Or remarried after their spouse died. God works things out in ways so that none of his people will ever be ultimately overcome by sin.

Right, now I am really confused -somehow that comes across as a contradiction to what you originally posted - and you still haven't answered my question - unless of course you do not believe that I am saved !!!