Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[reformed1689]

First you say you're okay with women talking in churches. Now you're back to it's not okay, because scripture prohibits it.

No, you are twisting things Bob. That passage is not dealing with conversations. It is dealing with teaching and exerting authority.

 

[reformed1689]

You're okay with women talking in churches? Paul wasn't, according to the verses I quoted.

No you are just making some DUMB assertions on the text and not dealing with the text itself.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, and no reasonable person reading that interprets that as they cannot even have a conversation in a church building.

the scripture there is speaking out during the preaching with questions or arguments, or during the church service, woman are not to do that. It may be that was a problem in some of those churches, for the proof of that is in the scripture that they are to ask their husbands at home if they have questions and want to learn something. My thinking is that some women were out of order, interrupting the preaching and the church services during the meeting. Some of the women may also have been arguing with the pastors over doctrines during the meeting, which Paul would have said was shameful behavior. Another reason was Paul in that chapter is speaking about, prophecies, and other spiritual giftings, but he says it must be done decently and in order, at most 2 or 3 to speak. Some of the women may have been very out of order with tongues and interpretations of tongues.
You must look at the entire relevant chapter to get an understanding here.

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (in context seems to be related to questioning things during the services which would also be shameful)

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

v38, people who won't acknowledge what Paul is commanding, you can't fix that in their minds, so dont even try if they continue to choose to be spiritually ignorant about these matters.

 

[TLHKAJ]

If you're a man, but are not my God (which is a given), my husband, my pastor, or my boss in a workplace ....you have absolutely ZERO authority over me.

Even my pastor has no authority over me in my home.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

you have absolutely ZERO authority over me.

In worldly affairs, yes.

You seem to like this worldly precept.

“…know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4)

 

[Bob Estey]

another literary device of Paul’s im guessing; a way to emphasize a point
dunno tho

I doubt if he thought it through. I think he was just upset.

 

[Bob Estey]

Again, you seem to think this encompasses all and any conversation. It doesn't.

Let's move on to Paul's assertion men have authority over women. Quietthinker pointed out men don't have authority over themselves. That would be the Lord's job. How, then, can a man have authority over a woman, usurping God?

 

[Bob Estey]

No you are just making some DUMB assertions on the text and not dealing with the text itself.

I was taking Paul literally without reading my own beliefs into what he said.

 

[TLHKAJ]

In worldly affairs, yes.

You seem to like this worldly precept.

“…know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4)

Actually, you assume wrong. I like to adhere to what the scripture actually says. You have no authority over me according to scripture. You are not my God, my husband, nor my pastor. I know that hurts your ego.

 

[TLHKAJ]

33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. ! Corinthians 14:33-35 RSV

There is a very key phrase here... "For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, even as the law says."

What law is Paul referring to? The law (10 commandments) had no commandment regarding women in churches or religious gatherings.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You are not my God, my husband, nor my pastor. I know that hurts your ego.

No injury to me at all.

But this might injure YOUR ego:

Abigail addresses David as “lord” and presents herself as his handmaiden BEFORE she was married to him!

“And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid.” (1 Samuel 25:23-24)

Ruth addresses Boaz as “lord” and presents herself as handmaiden BEFORE being married to him:

“Then she said, Let me find favour in thy sight, my lord; for that thou hast comforted me, and for that thou hast spoken friendly unto thine handmaid, though I be not like unto one of thine handmaidens.” (Ruth 2:13)

What a lost and perverted generation we live in these days!

Where are the biblical women at??!!

 

[Bob Estey]

There is a very key phrase here... "For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, even as the law says."

What law is Paul referring to? The law (10 commandments) had no commandment regarding women in churches or religious gatherings.

Yes, exactly. What law is he referring to? After Adam and Eve sinned, God predicted men would rule over their wives (Genesis 3:16), but that wasn't a commandment.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Yes, exactly. What law is he referring to? After Adam and Eve sinned, God predicted men would rule over their wives (Genesis 3:16), but that wasn't a commandment.

That was part of the curse, as men toiling by the sweat of their brow to work the ground, and women travailing in childbirth. But I can tell you, with God, that curse is lifted. I didn't travail as most women do in childbirth (as a Christian). I labored, but I had very short labors and almost effortless birthing.

But I don't think that's the law that Paul was referring to, because God was referring to her husband, not all men. I believe Paul was referring to the laws and customs of society, which governed how people should conduct their lives.

 

[TLHKAJ]

No injury to me at all.

But this might injure YOUR ego:

Abigail addresses David as “lord” and presents herself as his handmaiden BEFORE she was married to him!

“And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid.” (1 Samuel 25:23-24)

Ruth addresses Boaz as “lord” and presents herself as handmaiden BEFORE being married to him:

“Then she said, Let me find favour in thy sight, my lord; for that thou hast comforted me, and for that thou hast spoken friendly unto thine handmaid, though I be not like unto one of thine handmaidens.” (Ruth 2:13)

What a lost and perverted generation we live in these days!

Where are the biblical women at??!!

David was Abigail's king and then her husband. Boaz was Ruth's near kinsman who was obligated to redeem her according to the law. That involved marriage. You are not my husband. Period. You're certainly not my lord, nor my king. And thankfully to God, you're not my husband.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

David was Abigail's king

David was not King yet. He was on the run from Saul. And she wasn’t his wife yet.

Boaz was Ruth's near kinsman who was obligated to redeem her

In the verses I quoted she nor Boaz were aware that they would be married yet.

Ruth’s mother-in-law had not revealed this to her yet.

 

[TLHKAJ]

David was not King yet. He was on the run from Saul. And she wasn’t his wife yet.

What other man did she address as "lord"? How about Ruth? And there are examples of men calling other men "lord." What do you make of that?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What do you make of that?

What do you make of this:

“For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.” (1 Peter 3:5-6)

And Rebekah addresses Abraham’s servant as “lord”:

“And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, …with her pitcher upon her shoulder. And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.” (Genesis 24:15-18)

 

[Wrangler]

Let's move on to Paul's assertion men have authority over women. Quietthinker pointed out men don't have authority over themselves. That would be the Lord's job. How, then, can a man have authority over a woman, usurping God?

See 1 COR 11:3. 1st WHAT, then HOW. Depending on the translation, it refers to either a woman or wife and it does say WHAT, 'the head of woman/wife is man.'

Quietthinker tends to make tangential points, not quite on topic, an instinctive derailer. The HOW we can leave up to God, about this and most things of Scripture. I often pray for the Holy Spirit to lead me to be the husband she needs, to do and say what she needs. Then, I follow the Spirit. Easy.

 

[TLHKAJ]

What other man did she address as "lord"? How about Ruth? And there are examples of men calling other men "lord." What do you make of that?

Calling someone lord, or master, denoted submission or reverence toward someone who was in authority. And both women and men used those terms.

1 Samuel 25:14
[14]But one of the young men told Abigail, Nabal's wife, saying, Behold, David sent messengers out of the wilderness to salute our master; and he railed on them.

Here, David's young man called Nabal "our master." These do not provide a basis for every woman calling every man her lord or bowing to every man. If you had authority over me given by God (as my husband, my pastor, etc) I may address you as "sir." But I do that toward women and men anyway as a term of respect. I use the terms "ma'am" and "sir." It doesn't make myself less than. It is a way of considering someone else before myself. Respect.... common courtesy.

 

[TLHKAJ]

What do you make of this:

“For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.” (1 Peter 3:5-6)

And Rebekah addresses Abraham’s servant as “lord”:

“And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, …with her pitcher upon her shoulder. And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.” (Genesis 24:15-18)

Again.... YOU are NOT my husband. And you will not be my husband in the future. lol
Get over it.