Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[Wrangler]

However, from the standpoint of those women who do not submit, most of the time it is a trust issue.

Mostly, it is an ego issue. Who do these women, not trust; God, the man they chose or themselves?

 

[Mink57]

Mostly, it is an ego issue. Who do these women, not trust; God, the man they chose or themselves?

Which ego? The man's or woman's?

 

[Wrangler]

Which ego? The man's or woman's?

The women's ego. It's so big, we cannot even acknowledge its' existence.

In examining the cause for the Original Sin, it was the sin of coveting that got Eve. She aspired to be God and acted on that ego driven aspiration.

 

[Pierac]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

Well... Lets' see...

What concerns me more than scribal additions is the biblical text altered by men like you in the past... Men that are insecure with their manhood!

Rom 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Changes made by our Bible translators. Changing a woman’s name “Junia” to a man’s name is unacceptable. Other translators who keep the woman’s name but change her relationship to the apostles is also unacceptable.. It raises integrity questions. I have also discovered that our Bible
dictionaries and concordance have been possibly contaminated by theologians due to either lazy scholarship or an out right attempt to alter the definition. It appears that scholars of some of these reference books only ask theologians for the definition or seek the incorrect information to match their theological view. Since there is no know record of a male name of Junias, and all textual scholars and manuscripts agree that the name is Junia, why are some Bibles and Bible dictionaries and concordance changing the true meaning?

King James with strong numbers
Salute782 Andronicus408 and2532 Junia,2458

( Note: the same Strong number but different name?)

NASB with strong numbers

Greet782 Andronicus408 and Junias2458

G2458
Thayer Definition:
Junia = “youthful”
1) a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners
Part of Speech: noun proper feminine . (Notice no mention of apostleship )
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin

Strong’s Definition:
Of Latin origin; Junias, a Christian: - Junias. (Notice no mention of gender or apostleship and wrong name)

Word Study Definition: (Notice no mention of apostleship and wrong name)

Iounías; gen. Iounía, fem. Junias, a kinsman and fellow prisoner of Paul

Easton Bible Dictionary: (Notice no mention of gender or apostleship)

Junia
(Rom_16:7), a Christian at Rome to whom Paul sends salutations along with Andronicus.

Faussett Bible Dictionary: (Notice no mention of gender)

Junia
A Christian at Rome, one of Paul's "kinsmen ("fellow countrymen", Rom_9:3) and fellow prisoners who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before him" (Rom_16:7).

Perhaps.... you should search how Paul taught .....

1Co 11:4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered disgraces his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head.

This was done in Public and out Loud in Church!

1Co 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak. Rather, let them be in submission, as in fact the law says. If they want to find out about something, they should ask their husbands at home, because it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.

So... either Paul completely contradicted His own teaching 3 chapters earlier.... or men like you added to scripture... Want to guess what the scholars found.... LOL Yep... 1Co 11:4 is all over the manuscript map...

Shown to be added by men not unlike yourself... Men unable to deal with strong women and want to shup them up.... Yet Jesus speaks through His body... and his body is full of Women!!! Did Paul not write again... Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When I was in Tennessee we had names for men like you... but only women had them.... God works in mysterious ways!

Paul

 

[reformed1689]

Well... Lets' see...

What concerns me more than scribal additions is the biblical text altered by men like you in the past... Men that are insecure with their manhood!

Rom 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Changes made by our Bible translators. Changing a woman’s name “Junia” to a man’s name is unacceptable. Other translators who keep the woman’s name but change her relationship to the apostles is also unacceptable.. It raises integrity questions. I have also discovered that our Bible
dictionaries and concordance have been possibly contaminated by theologians due to either lazy scholarship or an out right attempt to alter the definition. It appears that scholars of some of these reference books only ask theologians for the definition or seek the incorrect information to match their theological view. Since there is no know record of a male name of Junias, and all textual scholars and manuscripts agree that the name is Junia, why are some Bibles and Bible dictionaries and concordance changing the true meaning?

King James with strong numbers
Salute782 Andronicus408 and2532 Junia,2458

( Note: the same Strong number but different name?)

NASB with strong numbers

Greet782 Andronicus408 and Junias2458

G2458
Thayer Definition:
Junia = “youthful”
1) a Christian woman at Rome, mentioned by Paul as one of his kinsfolk and fellow prisoners
Part of Speech: noun proper feminine . (Notice no mention of apostleship )
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin

Strong’s Definition:
Of Latin origin; Junias, a Christian: - Junias. (Notice no mention of gender or apostleship and wrong name)

Word Study Definition: (Notice no mention of apostleship and wrong name)

Iounías; gen. Iounía, fem. Junias, a kinsman and fellow prisoner of Paul

Easton Bible Dictionary: (Notice no mention of gender or apostleship)

Junia
(Rom_16:7), a Christian at Rome to whom Paul sends salutations along with Andronicus.

Faussett Bible Dictionary: (Notice no mention of gender)

Junia
A Christian at Rome, one of Paul's "kinsmen ("fellow countrymen", Rom_9:3) and fellow prisoners who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before him" (Rom_16:7).

Perhaps.... you should search how Paul taught .....

1Co 11:4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered disgraces his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head.

This was done in Public and out Loud in Church!

1Co 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak. Rather, let them be in submission, as in fact the law says. If they want to find out about something, they should ask their husbands at home, because it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.

So... either Paul completely contradicted His own teaching 3 chapters earlier.... or men like you added to scripture... Want to guess what the scholars found.... LOL Yep... 1Co 11:4 is all over the manuscript map...

Shown to be added by men not unlike yourself... Men unable to deal with strong women and want to shup them up.... Yet Jesus speaks through His body... and his body is full of Women!!! Did Paul not write again... Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When I was in Tennessee we had names for men like you... but only women had them.... God works in mysterious ways!

Paul

OR, a third option, you completely misinterpret the passage. Notice the woman speaking in 1 Corinthians is a disgrace. It's not celebrated, not encouraged. As far as Romans 16, how does that change anything at all with regard to this topic? It doesn't.

 

[reformed1689]

Neither does it say that women are to submit to their husband's if the husband isn't doing what he's supposed to do.

Actually it does. It says wives submit, full stop. It doesn't qualify that, doesn't give caveats. It says wives submit.

 

[Pierac]

OR, a third option, you completely misinterpret the passage. Notice the woman speaking in 1 Corinthians is a disgrace. It's not celebrated, not encouraged. As far as Romans 16, how does that change anything at all with regard to this topic? It doesn't.

Or you missed the point....

1Co 14:26 Church Order What should you do then, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If someone speaks in a tongue, it should be two, or at the most three, one after the other, and someone must interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church. Let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Two or three prophets should speak and the others should evaluate what is said. 30 And if someone sitting down receives a revelation, the person who is speaking should conclude. 31 For you can all prophesy one after another, so all can learn and be encouraged. 32 Indeed, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, 33 for God is not characterized by disorder but by peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 36 Did the word of God begin with you, or did it come to you alone? 37 If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord's command. 38 If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39 So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues. 40 And do everything in a decent and orderly manner.

You see, when you remove the verses.... the context of text flows and is not interrupted by additions.... Note many older manuscripts have 1Co 14:34-35 after verse 40?

1Co 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak. Rather, let them be in submission, as in fact the law says. 35 If they want to find out about something, they should ask their husbands at home, because it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.

Philip Comfort in his Book New Testament Text and Translation Commentary writes....

In addition to the textual evidence cited above, it must be said that Payne (1995, 240-262) has noted that both B and it' (Old Latin Codex Fuldensis) have marginal markings or readings which suggest that their scribes knew of the textual problem pertaining to 14:34-35. In Codex Vinicanus there is a marginal umlaut by the line that contains the end of 14:33, which indicates awareness of the textual problem...
Even prior to Payne's observation about B, and 88, certain scholars were convinced that 14:34-35 was a marginal gloss that found it's way into the main text... The inclusion of 14:34-35 creates a number of exegetical concerns, the chief of which pertains to the issue of women's verbal participation in church meetings. If Paul prohibited women from speaking in church meetings, why would he have indicated in 11:5 and 13 that women who pray and prophesy must do so with their heads covered? Obviously, these women were performing these verbal functions during a church meeting (see 11:17) So why would Paul later censure their speech?

I have many many books on our Greek text .... all teach the same on this topic.... Perhaps you reformed1689 could actually do some research instead of putting down and trying to shut up the other half of the body of Christ

Peace little one,
Paul

 

[reformed1689]

Perhaps you reformed1689 could actually do some research instead of putting down and trying to shut up the other half of the body of Christ

Putting down? I have not put down women. That is a gross misrepresentation of ANYTHING I have said in this thread. Nor do I say women are to shut up. You obviously have not read this whole thread.

 

[JRM]

Colossians 3:16 reads:

16) Let the word of Christ dwell in richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing on another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto the Lord.
17) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18) Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19) Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
23) And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily,, as to the Lord, and not unto men.

These same passages can also be found in Ephesians 5:22; 25. Verse 28 reads: So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Bob Estey]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

I believe Peter and Paul believed this. At some point one might ask, "Did Peter and Paul always write down exactly what God told them to write down?"

 

[JRM]

I believe Peter and Paul believed this. At some point one might ask, "Did Peter and Paul always write down exactly what God told them to write down?"

Guess what would happen if they did not??!!

 

[Bob Estey]

Guess what would happen if they did not??!!

People would have to get their information straight from the Lord.

 

[JRM]

People would have to get their information straight from the Lord.

Are you saying that God is NOT the Author of the Bible and that the contents of Scripture is NOT talking straight directly to you?

No wonder you're having problems understanding. the things of God.

 

[Bob Estey]

Are you saying that God is NOT the Author of the Bible and that the contents of Scripture is NOT talking straight directly to you?

No wonder you're having problems understanding. the things of God.

Paul told us to pray constantly (1 Thessalonians 5:17). When you pray, do you listen to God or do you just talk?

 

[JRM]

Paul told us to pray constantly (1 Thessalonians 5:17). When you pray, do you listen to God or do you just talk?

For a surety, you don't read posts very well, do you?. What has 1 Thessalonians 5:17 have to do with our discussion at hand?

 

[Bob Estey]

For a surety, you don't read posts very well, do you?. What has 1 Thessalonians 5:17 have to do with our discussion at hand?

I believe you objected to my question: "Did Peter and Paul always write down exactly what God told them to write down?" If we are constantly praying, and listening to what God tells us, why would it matter if Peter and Paul always wrote down exactly what God told them to write down?

 

[reformed1689]

I believe Peter and Paul believed this. At some point one might ask, "Did Peter and Paul always write down exactly what God told them to write down?"

So you want to question Scripture? If that is the case Bob, what parts of Scripture are right? What parts are not? No, I'm not going down that path. We don't just get to ignore the parts of Scripture we do not like.

 

[Bob Estey]

So you want to question Scripture? If that is the case Bob, what parts of Scripture are right? What parts are not? No, I'm not going down that path. We don't just get to ignore the parts of Scripture we do not like.

We know God and Jesus are always right, so if you see God or Jesus quoted, you know you must obey.

 

[reformed1689]

We know God and Jesus are always right, so if you see God or Jesus quoted, you know you must obey.

How do you know they were quoted accurately? You have a problem with the Bible. I get it. But guess what ALL Scripture is inspired. Not just the Red letters or the quotes of God.

 

[Bob Estey]

How do you know they were quoted accurately? You have a problem with the Bible. I get it. But guess what ALL Scripture is inspired. Not just the Red letters or the quotes of God.

I know they were quoted accurately because I know the Bible doesn't lie.