Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?
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Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
0bed said:
FHII said:
Yes, 0bed, read the whole statement. The great white throne of Judgement is not for the bride of Christ, its for all else who did not accept the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. The bride of Christ are those of the first Resurrection. They we will not be judged according to the law, our works, because Jesus already paid the ransom for our souls, serving as our get out of jail card. We confessed our sins unto the Judge in heaven, so that our criminal record can be expunged, allowing us to get off scot-free. For those of the second Resurrection however, they will stand before the judge to be judged according to their works. This is the entire point for repenting of your sins and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior when it comes down to it, its so that you don't have to face judgement, because Jesus Christ is the ultimate bailout. Once you understand this simple observation, the entire Gospel message becomes crystal clear.
FHII
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0bed said:
Your answer doesn't make sense to me and I'm moving on. Look 2 Cor 3 isn't difficult. Its not adking about the 3rd heaven or the seven thunders.... It say the 10 commandments have been abolished by Christ. Either you accept it or you don't.
It says the LAW has been fulfilled and is no more. The Law is the first five books. Paul compares human living hearts to tablets of stone which were often used for legal documents. The mistake is to assume these tablets are the Ten Commandments, but is does not say that. In your mind you have incorrectly replaced tablets of stone, which could be any stone tablets, with Ten Commandments, .FHII said:
Fleshy tables of the heart (πλαξὶν καρδίας σαρκίναις)
The best texts read καρδίαις the dative case in apposition with tables. Render, as Rev., tables which are hearts of flesh. Compare Eze_11:19; Jer_17:1; Jer_31:33. (Vincent Word Studies.)
2 Corinthians 3:7-11
The Old-Testament dispensation was the ministration of death (v. 7), whereas that of the New Testament is the ministration of life. The law discovered sin, and the wrath and curse of God. This showed us a God above us and a God against us; but the gospel discovers grace, and Emmanuel, God with us. Upon this account the gospel is more glorious than the law; and yet that had a glory in it, witness the shining of Moses’s face (an indication thereof) when he came down from the mount with the tables in his hand, that reflected rays of brightness upon his countenance. 2. The law was the ministration of condemnation, for that condemned and cursed every one who continued not in all things written therein to do them; but the gospel is the ministration of righteousness: therein the righteousness of God by faith is revealed. This shows us that the just shall live by his faith. This reveals the grace and mercy of God through Jesus Christ, for obtaining the remission of sins and eternal life. The gospel therefore so much exceeds in glory that in a manner it eclipses the glory of the legal dispensation, v. 10. As the shining of a burning lamp is lost, or not regarded, when the sun arises and goes forth in his strength; so there was no glory in the Old Testament, in comparison with that of the New. 3. The law is done away, but the gospel does and shall remain, v. 11. Not only did the glory of Moses’s face go away, but the glory of Moses’s law is done away also; yea, the law of Moses itself is now abolished. That dispensation was only to continue for a time, and then to vanish away; whereas the gospel shall remain to the end of the world, and is always fresh and flourishing and remains glorious.
Matthew Henry
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/2-corinthians/3.html
shnarkle
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Just to clarity; God did not give the law to the Jews, but to all the tribes of Israel. Christ as well as the author of Hebrews pointed out that those who were tasked with taking care of the oracles of God didn't do a very good job because they hid it under a basket when they should have been sharing it with others. When an Israelite stopped keeping the law of God they were considered to be a gentile.
However, if we look at Acts we see that those gentiles who are now becoming part of the fold are not to be treated as gentiles anymore. Paul points out that before they joined the fold a Jew could give them animals that weren't slaughtered according to the law. If the knife wasn't sharp enough, or if there was blood that couldn't be removed it had to be given to a gentile, but gentiles that were now part of the church couldn't be given this anymore. Nor were they allowed to engage in idolatry, fornication etc. He then makes a very interesting statement:
"19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
The reason why he confines his warnings to idolatry, fornication and the dietary laws is because these newly converted gentiles are now in the synagogues on the Sabbath so he is simply stressing some of the most important items to be addressed. I hasten to point out that this is quite some time after Christ has been raised form the dead and gone to heaven.
You posted:
Romans 14:2-4 “One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables. The one eating, do not despise the one not eating. And the one not eating, do not judge the one eating, for God received him. Who are you judging another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.”
Romans 14:5 “One indeed judges a day above another day; and another one judges every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.”
Dietary Law?"
shnarkle: Romans 14:2-4 isn't about dietary laws. It's explicitly talking about vegetarianism.
---------------------------------
Keeping the feasts? Sabbath? No.
shnarkle: Here again, there is no mention of the Sabbath or even feast days. As I pointed out earlier the text of Acts is clear that the church kept the Weekly Sabbath long after Christ had gone to heaven.
------------------------------
Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.”
Circumcision? No.
shnarkle: There are no slave or free, Jew or Gentile, male or female either.
----------------------------
2 Corinthians 9:7 (concerning giving) “Each one as he purposes in his heart, not out of grief or out of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
Tithing? No.
Should we say, “those are the ‘ceremonial laws’, but we are still bound by the ‘moral laws’”? Can we subdivide the Law?
shnarkle: Yes, we can. Paul makes it quite clear that whenever he addresses the issues of righteousness, justification, or the sacrificial system; these are all done away with Christ's sacrifice. When he refers to the commandments, he says things like: "faith establishes the law". It doesn't make much sense to establish something to then turn around and do away with it. Therefore it becomes obvious that he is making a distinction between these two aspects of the law.
----------------------------
Galatians 3:10 “For as many as are out of works of Law, these are under a curse. For it has been written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things having been written in the book of the Law, to do them.”
shnarkle: The bible also points out that those who love one another fulfill the law. Galatians makes it clear that transgressing the law is sin; so it should come as no surprise that to sin is a curse. Christ came to take the curse of the law away. He didn't take the obligation of the law away.
------------------------------
Galatians 5:3 “And I testify again to every man being circumcised, that he is a debtor to do all the Law,”
There is a specific technical foundation to our not being under the Law, that is, bound to keeping its precepts.
Romans 7:1-6 “Or are you ignorant, brothers, (for I speak to those knowing Law), that the Law lords it over the man for as long a time as he lives? For the married woman was bound by Law to the living husband; but if the husband dies, she is set free from the Law of the husband. So then, if the husband is living, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's. But if the husband dies, she is free from the Law, so as for her not to be an adulteress by becoming another man's. So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin were working in our members through the Law for the bearing of fruit unto death. But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.”
Simply put, the Law governs our life. “The soul that sins shall die”. The Law requires our death, and we’ve died in Christ. Romans 6 explains we were immersed into Christ when He died, so His death counts as our own. Therefore, the Law’s righteous demand upon us, that we die, has been met.
I’ll say this again.
The Law demands our death, and we’ve died. Therefore, the Law is finished with us.
“But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.”
This is why the Apostle can write,
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus”.
There cannot be. There is no longer any law that condemns us. We’ve died to the Law. Just as the woman whose husband dies is free to marry, no longer bound by the law governing marriage, we are no longer bound by the Law of Moses. We are free to “remarry”, as it were, that is, to serve another. We no longer serve the Law, we serve Christ.
shnarkle: This is all true, but it should be clearly stated that to marry another is now lawful. The law that allows one to marry still exists. It makes no sense to say that the law is done away with when you are relying on the exact same law to allow you to marry another. This should be self evident, but it still needs to be pointed out. In other words, the law is still there, it just isn't being transgressed anymore.
------------------------------
What did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 9:19-21 “For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more. And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law; to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law.”
He was free to live as those without Law (excepting the fact that he still served Jesus Christ).
shnarkle: Well no, that's not really what that's saying. He plainly makes a distinction between those who are "without" the law and those who are "under" the law. Paul is still under the law to Christ. He was not free to live lawlessly, and he proved this over and over. He even went through a ceremony in Acts to show that he didn't reject the law at all. His whole argument with the law is that no one is justified by the works of the law. This is in no way an argument for doing away with the law.
--------------------------------
What did the Apostles and the early church say?
In Acts 15, the question was specifically raised, “Do the gentiles need to keep the Law?”
Peter had a clear response. “why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we had strength to bear?”
The consensus was clear. Abstain from idols, sexual immorality, eating things strangled, and eating blood. The reason for this was given. “For in every city from ancient generations Moses has those proclaiming him (preaching Moses), having been read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (vs. 21)
shnarkle: I'm kinda surprised that you don't see that the church was in the synagogues on the Sabbath, i.e. keeping and learning the law. Abstaining from idols, sexual immorality, and eating blood are all explicit references to the Mosaic law; they are the most important items that the early church felt needed to be observed.
----------------------------------
For the sake of those who have grown up their whole lives being taught that this was not to be done, don’t do it.
shnarkle: I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. He isn't addressing those who already know that eating blood is wrong. He's pointing out to those who just joined the fold that this is wrong.
----------------------------
It was around this same time that Paul both had Timothy circumcised, because they were going to be evangelizing Jews who knew Timothy was half-Greek, and refused to have Titus circumcised, because the Jews were insisting that he had to be. For the sake of the Gospel, Timothy was circumcised. But to defend the principle, Titus was not.
I think a great example of this whole idea is when I finished paying off my car last year. What would the sense be if I thought I still had to send in that monthly payment? Now, I’m free to send another couple hundred a month to the bank if I want to. But that’s up to me.
shnarkle: This is something that most Christians are woefully ignorant about. If one were to actually look back into the Old Testament they might see that God instituted usury as a means of overtaking the inhabitants of the Promised Land. God instructed Israel to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the Promised Land, but Israel failed to accomplish this so God then instructed them to utilize yet another instrument of war; i.e. usury. It is incredibly effective at making one a debt slave. Jews get a bad rap for doing this, but as God Himself says: "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge"
------------------------------
“Is there no restraint against bad behavior anymore???”
Galatians 5:13-16 “For, brothers, you were called to freedom. Only do not use the freedom for an opening to the flesh. But through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”
shnarkle: "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a summary of the law. To sum up the law is to show that it is equivalent to the law. The legalists of Paul's day could have come to him and claimed that one must love their neighbor as themselves to attain salvation, and Paul would have denounced them and pronounced them anathema.
To say that those who walk in the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is no different than saying that they will not transgress the law.
Here's the best analogy I've ever heard to explain what so many people don't understand:
Ranches in some parts of Australia are so immense that to fence in the cattle is prohibitively expensive. The solution: sink wells in the center of the property which make it impossible for the cattle to stray far enough to reach the perimeter of the property. This is a perfect analogy for the gospel. The property line/law is still there, but it isn't what is keeping the cattle from crossing/sinning. The water is what is keeping them from crossing/transgressing that line. To stray far enough to cross/transgress that property line is to sin/die
However, if we look at Acts we see that those gentiles who are now becoming part of the fold are not to be treated as gentiles anymore. Paul points out that before they joined the fold a Jew could give them animals that weren't slaughtered according to the law. If the knife wasn't sharp enough, or if there was blood that couldn't be removed it had to be given to a gentile, but gentiles that were now part of the church couldn't be given this anymore. Nor were they allowed to engage in idolatry, fornication etc. He then makes a very interesting statement:
"19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
The reason why he confines his warnings to idolatry, fornication and the dietary laws is because these newly converted gentiles are now in the synagogues on the Sabbath so he is simply stressing some of the most important items to be addressed. I hasten to point out that this is quite some time after Christ has been raised form the dead and gone to heaven.
You posted:
Romans 14:2-4 “One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables. The one eating, do not despise the one not eating. And the one not eating, do not judge the one eating, for God received him. Who are you judging another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.”
Romans 14:5 “One indeed judges a day above another day; and another one judges every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.”
Dietary Law?"
shnarkle: Romans 14:2-4 isn't about dietary laws. It's explicitly talking about vegetarianism.
---------------------------------
Keeping the feasts? Sabbath? No.
shnarkle: Here again, there is no mention of the Sabbath or even feast days. As I pointed out earlier the text of Acts is clear that the church kept the Weekly Sabbath long after Christ had gone to heaven.
------------------------------
Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.”
Circumcision? No.
shnarkle: There are no slave or free, Jew or Gentile, male or female either.
----------------------------
2 Corinthians 9:7 (concerning giving) “Each one as he purposes in his heart, not out of grief or out of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
Tithing? No.
Should we say, “those are the ‘ceremonial laws’, but we are still bound by the ‘moral laws’”? Can we subdivide the Law?
shnarkle: Yes, we can. Paul makes it quite clear that whenever he addresses the issues of righteousness, justification, or the sacrificial system; these are all done away with Christ's sacrifice. When he refers to the commandments, he says things like: "faith establishes the law". It doesn't make much sense to establish something to then turn around and do away with it. Therefore it becomes obvious that he is making a distinction between these two aspects of the law.
----------------------------
Galatians 3:10 “For as many as are out of works of Law, these are under a curse. For it has been written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things having been written in the book of the Law, to do them.”
shnarkle: The bible also points out that those who love one another fulfill the law. Galatians makes it clear that transgressing the law is sin; so it should come as no surprise that to sin is a curse. Christ came to take the curse of the law away. He didn't take the obligation of the law away.
------------------------------
Galatians 5:3 “And I testify again to every man being circumcised, that he is a debtor to do all the Law,”
There is a specific technical foundation to our not being under the Law, that is, bound to keeping its precepts.
Romans 7:1-6 “Or are you ignorant, brothers, (for I speak to those knowing Law), that the Law lords it over the man for as long a time as he lives? For the married woman was bound by Law to the living husband; but if the husband dies, she is set free from the Law of the husband. So then, if the husband is living, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's. But if the husband dies, she is free from the Law, so as for her not to be an adulteress by becoming another man's. So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin were working in our members through the Law for the bearing of fruit unto death. But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.”
Simply put, the Law governs our life. “The soul that sins shall die”. The Law requires our death, and we’ve died in Christ. Romans 6 explains we were immersed into Christ when He died, so His death counts as our own. Therefore, the Law’s righteous demand upon us, that we die, has been met.
I’ll say this again.
The Law demands our death, and we’ve died. Therefore, the Law is finished with us.
“But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.”
This is why the Apostle can write,
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus”.
There cannot be. There is no longer any law that condemns us. We’ve died to the Law. Just as the woman whose husband dies is free to marry, no longer bound by the law governing marriage, we are no longer bound by the Law of Moses. We are free to “remarry”, as it were, that is, to serve another. We no longer serve the Law, we serve Christ.
shnarkle: This is all true, but it should be clearly stated that to marry another is now lawful. The law that allows one to marry still exists. It makes no sense to say that the law is done away with when you are relying on the exact same law to allow you to marry another. This should be self evident, but it still needs to be pointed out. In other words, the law is still there, it just isn't being transgressed anymore.
------------------------------
What did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 9:19-21 “For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more. And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law; to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law.”
He was free to live as those without Law (excepting the fact that he still served Jesus Christ).
shnarkle: Well no, that's not really what that's saying. He plainly makes a distinction between those who are "without" the law and those who are "under" the law. Paul is still under the law to Christ. He was not free to live lawlessly, and he proved this over and over. He even went through a ceremony in Acts to show that he didn't reject the law at all. His whole argument with the law is that no one is justified by the works of the law. This is in no way an argument for doing away with the law.
--------------------------------
What did the Apostles and the early church say?
In Acts 15, the question was specifically raised, “Do the gentiles need to keep the Law?”
Peter had a clear response. “why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we had strength to bear?”
The consensus was clear. Abstain from idols, sexual immorality, eating things strangled, and eating blood. The reason for this was given. “For in every city from ancient generations Moses has those proclaiming him (preaching Moses), having been read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” (vs. 21)
shnarkle: I'm kinda surprised that you don't see that the church was in the synagogues on the Sabbath, i.e. keeping and learning the law. Abstaining from idols, sexual immorality, and eating blood are all explicit references to the Mosaic law; they are the most important items that the early church felt needed to be observed.
----------------------------------
For the sake of those who have grown up their whole lives being taught that this was not to be done, don’t do it.
shnarkle: I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. He isn't addressing those who already know that eating blood is wrong. He's pointing out to those who just joined the fold that this is wrong.
----------------------------
It was around this same time that Paul both had Timothy circumcised, because they were going to be evangelizing Jews who knew Timothy was half-Greek, and refused to have Titus circumcised, because the Jews were insisting that he had to be. For the sake of the Gospel, Timothy was circumcised. But to defend the principle, Titus was not.
I think a great example of this whole idea is when I finished paying off my car last year. What would the sense be if I thought I still had to send in that monthly payment? Now, I’m free to send another couple hundred a month to the bank if I want to. But that’s up to me.
shnarkle: This is something that most Christians are woefully ignorant about. If one were to actually look back into the Old Testament they might see that God instituted usury as a means of overtaking the inhabitants of the Promised Land. God instructed Israel to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the Promised Land, but Israel failed to accomplish this so God then instructed them to utilize yet another instrument of war; i.e. usury. It is incredibly effective at making one a debt slave. Jews get a bad rap for doing this, but as God Himself says: "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge"
------------------------------
“Is there no restraint against bad behavior anymore???”
Galatians 5:13-16 “For, brothers, you were called to freedom. Only do not use the freedom for an opening to the flesh. But through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”
shnarkle: "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a summary of the law. To sum up the law is to show that it is equivalent to the law. The legalists of Paul's day could have come to him and claimed that one must love their neighbor as themselves to attain salvation, and Paul would have denounced them and pronounced them anathema.
To say that those who walk in the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is no different than saying that they will not transgress the law.
Here's the best analogy I've ever heard to explain what so many people don't understand:
Ranches in some parts of Australia are so immense that to fence in the cattle is prohibitively expensive. The solution: sink wells in the center of the property which make it impossible for the cattle to stray far enough to reach the perimeter of the property. This is a perfect analogy for the gospel. The property line/law is still there, but it isn't what is keeping the cattle from crossing/sinning. The water is what is keeping them from crossing/transgressing that line. To stray far enough to cross/transgress that property line is to sin/die
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