Do you believe in Hell ?

[hayden]

Hi Hayden the topic of the thread is do you believe in hell, It is not "do you believe bad people can be forgiven"

Don't you think the two are greatly related? I wouldn't know how to discuss this without touching on the latter. Regardless, it was a rebuttal to your argument.

if you wish to use my comments out of context to display some sort of condescending and incredibly annoying righteous prowess, then whatever blows your hair back.

That's how you read it. Most of my post was questions, if you took them as condescending, or as implying something they did not say, then that is on you. I told you how I see it, don't take it to be a display of my righteousness, because it was not.

The whole point behind the introduction thread is so that you can introduce yourself to us and tell us your beliefs, by not doing so you are acting dishonestly,
James 4:17 "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

If you have no deception to hide then please by all means tell us your beliefs and your purpose for being here. So we can know who you are and enjoy your company more fully.

If you want to know something about me, then just ask. I have held nothing from you, and you have not asked me anything about myself. Thought, you are going to have to be more specific than "what do you believe".

It is entirely up to me what I say about myself on this forum. If you take that to mean that I am trying to deceive you, then there's not much I can do about that. I don't think that you, or anyone else here, are trying to deceive me, and I know nothing about you.

But sadly until I do, I will have nothing more to do with you.

You don't get to know someone by having them post their life summary, or the church they attend, or the beliefs they hold. You get to know someone by talking to them.

I intended my post to be a conflict to you, because I wanted to challenge your thinking, don't take offense by it, it wan't intended that way.

In fact there's no stronger argument for the existence of hell than the evil in this world that demands rectification. I've made this argument many times.

People instinctively know there's a hell, even Jews who say they don't believe in it, but refer to it often and the reason is there is a balance of justice that man cannot dispense.

So why are you telling us what the rectification is, if only God can dispense it? Should you not leave that up to God to decide?

Let's say we capture a serial pedophile and killer. He confesses to stalking, kidnapping, sexually abusing, and then murdering scores of small children and burying them out in the woods. Asked more as a rhetorical question, is it possible for our justice system to adequately punish this man for his crimes? Even if we execute him, even if we make that execution drawn out and cruel, he has only one life to offer in recompence for the many lives he destroyed.

Do you overrule God's declared wages of sin: death?

Tell me, where is the threshold to deserving more than death? Tell me the exact moment when a man deserves more than death, according to your judgment. And, furthermore, where is it written?

IT ISN'T POSSIBLE FOR MAN TO METE OUT THE AMOUNT OF JUSTICE NEEDED TO RECTIFY THE EVIL MAN IS CAPABLE OF!

I agree. The same is true for the "smallest" of sins. For the power of life and death is with God.

By the way, I love this clip from the movie "Changeling". For once, Hollywood got it exactly right, and being produced by Clint Eastwood, I'm not surprised. This man did exactly what I just described, murdering countless boys he kidnapped and being caught, tried, and convicted. Even though he "made things right" with a minister, he comes to realize the awful truth that God has not forgiven him, will not forgive him, even if he sought it diligently with tears, for what he did cannot be forgiven. See the terror that overtakes him when he stares right into the abyss of eternal damnation into which he's about to be shoved. This is a man who knows there is a hell and knows for a fact he's going there and no prayer can save him from it: THIS IS WELL WORTH WATCHING!

Do you truly believe that that man was repentant, or was he afraid of dying? I think the latter. But what about when he is raised, and sees the glory of God, will he repent then? And if he does, does God not have the right to forgive him, even then?

 

[StanJ]

Most Christians do...for some reason there are a few that think the only way to believe in God is to bring Him down to our level of understanding and acceptance. Sigh!

The problem is these people don't really understand the word 'torment', and take it to mean torture. How they believe a spirit can be tortured is beyond me.

 

[williemac]

Williemac, God is not a slot machine that gives you a predictable outcome when you pull the lever. He is a sentient being, and no person can come to repentance unless he wills them to do so. There is another side to the beatitude "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy" and that other side is what happens when one acts utterly without mercy toward their fellow man. Your huffing and puffing comes to nothing because in the end, it's God who makes that decision, regardless of your misguided post that puts that decision into man's hands. It's the one area where Calvinists are more right than they are wrong. St. Paul mused that God had mercy upon him because he acted in ignorance when he persecuted Christians. It's an important point that shouldn't be missed, that even Paul believed the decision to show mercy was God's, and apart from that act of volition, Paul would never have been saved. It's not that different than how a judge passes sentence that varies depending on whether the offender showed signs of remorse and redemption or whether he callously and thoughtlessly inflicted death and destruction on his fellow man. That's because God has given man his own sense of justice, having created man in his own image.

So yes, the scenario I posed is very possible, that God withheld mercy to a merciless individual. It's his right to do so because he isn't a slot machine.

God may not be a slot machine, but the bible says it is impossible for Him to lie. The bible says He is not willing that Any should perish but that all should come to repentance. If you knew your bible, you would not have mistakenly assumed He is a control freak who plays favorites or plays eenie meenie with human souls. He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish. The passage I quoted in 2Cor. states that not only did He receoncile the world to Himself but through us..He pleads with the world to be reconciled. So now you would have Him pleading on the one hand and refusing entry to the responder on the other hand. You are wrong my brother, not understanding both the nature of God nor His promise, nor what He accomplished at Calvary. You are the one who would refuse a person's faith...not God. He is asking for both humility and faith. He gives grace to the humble according to James. He will have mercy or harden on the basis of what He sees in the heart, not by the flipping of a coin or some kind of whim. He does not decide and manipulate who this would be. He simply knows the end from the beginning. Your response wreaks of the typical misguided conclusions from the Calvanisitic camp that does not understand predestination. Salvation comes to those who acknowledge their sin and understand their need for a savior and for mercy. If a person stands before God without having done that,it is likely too late. If he was merciless at one time but came to repentance, (a change of mind), God will have mercy. All sin can and will be forgiven for those who call upon His name. You can paint a scenario whatever way you wish, but in doing so, please don't contradict or deny the gospel in the process, or deny the goodness and faithfulness of God.

If He is willing that none should perish, but we know that some or many will indeed perish, then we can be assured that He is not in a game of control. He granted mankind with free will...the ability to think, reason, and respond. He cannot deny Himself.

 

[StanJ]

God may not be a slot machine, but the bible says it is impossible for Him to lie. The bible says He is not willing that Any should perish but that all should come to repentance. If you knew your bible, you would not have mistakenly assumed He is a control freak who plays favorites or plays eenie meenie with human souls. He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish. The passage I quoted in 2Cor. states that not only did He receoncile the world to Himself but through us..He pleads with the world to be reconciled. So now you would have Him pleading on the one hand and refusing entry to the responder on the other hand. You are wrong my brother, not understanding both the nature of God nor His promise, nor what He accomplished at Calvary. You are the one who would refuse a person's faith...not God. He is asking for both humility and faith. He gives grace to the humble according to James. He will have mercy or harden on the basis of what He sees in the heart, not by the flipping of a coin or some kind of whim. He does not decide and manipulate who this would be. He simply knows the end from the beginning. Your response wreaks of the typical misguided conclusions from the Calvanisitic camp that does not understand predestination. Salvation comes to those who acknowledge their sin and understand their need for a savior and for mercy. If a person stands before God without having done that,it is likely too late. If he was merciless at one time but came to repentance, (a change of mind), God will have mercy. All sin can and will be forgiven for those who call upon His name. You can paint a scenario whatever way you wish, but in doing so, please don't contradict or deny the gospel in the process, or deny the goodness and faithfulness of God.

If He is willing that none should perish, but we know that some or many will indeed perish, then we can be assured that He is not in a game of control. He granted mankind with free will...the ability to think, reason, and respond. He cannot deny Himself.

Very true...unless you are RT. I'm pretty sure Tears is not RT. He's RC.

 

[Madad21]

Most Christians do...for some reason there are a few that think the only way to believe in God is to bring Him down to our level of understanding and acceptance. Sigh!

The problem is these people don't really understand the word 'torment', and take it to mean torture. How they believe a spirit can be tortured is beyond me.

This is true, from what little understanding I have on the subject, people pretty much become torment. they become their own pain and sorrow if that makes sense to anyone.
I will admitt that I have watched a lot of near death testimony on YouTube and read them in Christian web articles, and one of the themes that I have noticed to be unanimous among them is the statement that they understood and agreed fully with why they were there. they say they dont just experience the pain they literally become pain and they know why.
The the other thing they all agree on is the fact that they all scream the same thing "Dont come here" and "Do dont what I did" apparently trying to call out to family and friends to warn them.
Which as I write this I remember the account of Lazarus and the Rich man, and the rich man doing pretty much exactly that.

I have in my own life experienced going down in to the pit when I was a young teen and all I can really remember of that was all the screaming and yelling, I distinctly remember a lady's voice clear to this day telling me to go back. I have also experienced the presence of Christ and that is beyond words to express the joy and love I felt. that was the night I came to Christ for the first time. there is a massive contrast between the two events. Jesus is real and Hell is a very real place.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Most Christians do...for some reason there are a few that think the only way to believe in God is to bring Him down to our level of understanding and acceptance. Sigh!

The problem is these people don't really understand the word 'torment', and take it to mean torture. How they believe a spirit can be tortured is beyond me.

Hey Stan.

You don't think being thrown in a lake of fire is torture?
I understand existing without the spirit of God is torment. And I believe God could have articulated that, however, God specifically created a lake of "fire".
So I would suggest that perhaps it's splitting hairs.

Here's the dictionary meaning...
1.
to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain:
to be tormented with violent headaches.

2.
to worry or annoy excessively:
to torment one with questions.


3.
to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb.

noun
4.
a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.

5.
something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.

6.
a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.

7.
an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.

8.
the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.

 

[walls of jericho941]

Williemac, God is not a slot machine that gives you a predictable outcome when you pull the lever. He is a sentient being, and no person can come to repentance unless he wills them to do so. There is another side to the beatitude "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy" and that other side is what happens when one acts utterly without mercy toward their fellow man. Your huffing and puffing comes to nothing because in the end, it's God who makes that decision, regardless of your misguided post that puts that decision into man's hands. It's the one area where Calvinists are more right than they are wrong. St. Paul mused that God had mercy upon him because he acted in ignorance when he persecuted Christians. It's an important point that shouldn't be missed, that even Paul believed the decision to show mercy was God's, and apart from that act of volition, Paul would never have been saved. It's not that different than how a judge passes sentence that varies depending on whether the offender showed signs of remorse and redemption or whether he callously and thoughtlessly inflicted death and destruction on his fellow man. That's because God has given man his own sense of justice, having created man in his own image.

So yes, the scenario I posed is very possible, that God withheld mercy to a merciless individual. It's his right to do so because he isn't a slot machine.

I do not believe God is a slot machine either, but there is one flaw in your thinking here. And that is God does not desire even one should perish. If God chooses some for hell this means the bible has a major contradiction, and since we know the bible is God breathed, what you are saying would make God a liar. There was two trees in the midst of the garden. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam had a choice.
Dueteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to call this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curssing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
God gives us a choice, its called free will. Godis a just judge, and a judge only judges the actions of another, and if guilt be found issues a penalty. It is us who send ourselves to hell, not God.

 

[Bronzesnake]

I do not believe God is a slot machine either, but there is one flaw in your thinking here. And that is God does not desire even one should perish. If God chooses some for hell this means the bible has a major contradiction, and since we know the bible is God breathed, what you are saying would make God a liar. There was two trees in the midst of the garden. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam had a choice.
Dueteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to call this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curssing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
God gives us a choice, its called free will. Godis a just judge, and a judge only judges the actions of another, and if guilt be found issues a penalty. It is us who send ourselves to hell, not God.

Great post.

John

 

[StanJ]

Hey Stan.

You don't think being thrown in a lake of fire is torture?
I understand existing without the spirit of God is torment. And I believe God could have articulated that, however, God specifically created a lake of "fire".
So I would suggest that perhaps it's splitting hairs.

No, because it's metaphorical not literal. Torment is NOT the same as torture. I don't see anywhere in scripture that states God CREATED a lake of fire.
It's not splitting hairs, it's reading scripture in the correct sense.

 

[walls of jericho941]

No, because it's metaphorical not literal. Torment is NOT the same as torture. I don't see anywhere in scripture that states God CREATED a lake of fire.
It's not splitting hairs, it's reading scripture in the correct sense.

Revelation 20:14 -15 is a good place to read about the lake of fire. Of corse it dont say he created it, but it also dont say in genesis God created water, and there is plenty of that around.

 

[Bronzesnake]

OK, this post may be a little hard to understand because for some reason none of the tools are working....again!

No, because it's metaphorical not literal. Torment is NOT the same as torture. I don't see anywhere in scripture that states God CREATED a lake of fire.
It's not splitting hairs, it's reading scripture in the correct sense.

Matthew 18:9 -And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Sorry Stan, but I think you may be wrong on this one brother. Jesus specifically says that eternal fire was prepared.

I don`t see how you can take these verses any other way, but literally. There is no metaphor, no figurative language, no allegory, and no parable used at all.

The fact that Jesus explains that a place of eternal fire was prepared should kill any doubt.

Can you explain how you came to believe these verses were not literal - is it because you don`t believe in Hell

I`m trying to understand how that works Stan

Revelation 20:15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here again, the verse is describing a literal event of judgment were people will literally be thrown into the lake of fire - not ``a`` lake of fire.

OK Stan. maybe I'm not understanding you literally

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I do not believe God is a slot machine either, but there is one flaw in your thinking here. And that is God does not desire even one should perish. If God chooses some for hell this means the bible has a major contradiction, and since we know the bible is God breathed, what you are saying would make God a liar. There was two trees in the midst of the garden. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam had a choice.
Dueteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to call this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curssing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
God gives us a choice, its called free will. Godis a just judge, and a judge only judges the actions of another, and if guilt be found issues a penalty. It is us who send ourselves to hell, not God.

I think you and williemac are making the same mistake in the application of this scriptural passage. God isn't willing that anyone should perish, but that hope is extinguished by the choices we make in life, for people can put themselves beyond the redemption of God through sheer unforgivable acts. The gospels point this out, that there are sins that can't be forgiven, that we truly can be written off eternally even before we die based on decisions we make to permanently remove ourselves from the reach of grace. I believe the passage you and williemac quoted applies to every single baby that's born, that God hopes the baby will grow into a man or woman who loves him and will want to share eternity with him, but it's clear that in most cases, that doesn't happen.

And that's why I pointed out the reverse side of the beatitude about mercy, those who are merciless shall receive NO mercy. If indeed I'm correct that a serial pedophile and murderer of children cannot possibly be saved, it's not because God didn't offer that person salvation initially, as God does to every person, but it's rather that the person made clear by his actions he wanted nothing to do with God's goodness, so he was cut off from it. It's much the same way God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, cementing him in the decision he already made to refuse to release the Hebrew slaves.

I think what's lacking in your viewpoint and williemac's is a humble acknowledgement that God can have mercy upon whoever he wills and withhold it as well, for God is not a slot machine, and as God told Moses, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion." There's a sovereign decision that GOD ALONE makes when it comes to salvation. It's perhaps the only point of agreement I have with the Calvinists.

 

[StanJ]

Revelation 20:14 -15 is a good place to read about the lake of fire. Of corse it dont say he created it, but it also dont say in genesis God created water, and there is plenty of that around.

Actually, it does say God created water in Gen 1:1

Matthew 18:9 -And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Sorry Stan, but I think you may be wrong on this one brother. Jesus specifically says that eternal fire was prepared.

I don`t see how you can take these verses any other way, but literally. There is no metaphor, no figurative language, no allegory, and no parable used at all.

The fact that Jesus explains that a place of eternal fire was prepared should kill any doubt.

Can you explain how you came to believe these verses were not literal - is it because you don`t believe in Hell

I`m trying to understand how that works Stan

Revelation 20:15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here again, the verse is describing a literal event of judgment were people will literally be thrown into the lake of fire - not ``a`` lake of fire.

OK Stan. maybe I'm not understanding you literally

Helps word studies states;
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

Just as Jesus was being figurative about plucking out your eye, because your eye does NOT make you sin, the use of fire is almost always figurative.

Strong's writes; fire, Mt. 3:10; 7:19; 13:40, et al. freq.; πυρός, used by Hebraism with the force of an adjective, fiery, fierce.

The fact that God's pre-creation plan included a place to ban His spiritual enemies and the unsaved, does NOT mean it is a physical place with actual fire. Think about it....how does fire effect a non-corporeal being who cannot feel physical pain or suffering. Think with your spiritual mind, not your physical one.

I think you and williemac are making the same mistake in the application of this scriptural passage. God isn't willing that anyone should perish, but that hope is extinguished by the choices we make in life, for people can put themselves beyond the redemption of God through sheer unforgivable acts. The gospels point this out, that there are sins that can't be forgiven, that we truly can be written off eternally even before we die based on decisions we make to permanently remove ourselves from the reach of grace. I believe the passage you and williemac quoted applies to every single baby that's born, that God hopes the baby will grow into a man or woman who loves him and will want to share eternity with him, but it's clear that in most cases, that doesn't happen.

And that's why I pointed out the reverse side of the beatitude about mercy, those who are merciless shall receive NO mercy. If indeed I'm correct that a serial pedophile and murderer of children cannot possibly be saved, it's not because God didn't offer that person salvation initially, as God does to every person, but it's rather that the person made clear by his actions he wanted nothing to do with God's goodness, so he was cut off from it. It's much the same way God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, cementing him in the decision he already made to refuse to release the Hebrew slaves.

I think what's lacking in your viewpoint and williemac's is a humble acknowledgement that God can have mercy upon whoever he wills and withhold it as well, for God is not a slot machine, and as God told Moses, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion." There's a sovereign decision that GOD ALONE makes when it comes to salvation. It's perhaps the only point of agreement I have with the Calvinists.

I agree with most of what you say here Tears, but WE make the choice, NOT God. He draws everyone to Jesus and those who respond positively to His drawing will be saved. It is our choice, which is why we are ultimately responsible for our final destination.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Hey Stan

In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

The only way we can understand if a scripture, or specific word is figurative or not is to take it in context, so when we read the "fire of God", we know in this instance, fire is figurative.
However, when I read how Jesus created Hell, and Hell is always described as a place with eternal fire, I understand it to be a literal place, with literal fire. If you can show me a single example where Hell is described any other way, I'll listen

The fact that God's pre-creation plan included a place to ban His spiritual enemies and the unsaved, does NOT mean it is a physical place with actual fire.

It also does NOT mean it isn't.

Think about it....how does fire effect a non-corporeal being who cannot feel physical pain or suffering. Think with your spiritual mind, not your physical one.

I doubt anyone could answer that Stan, but just because we can't understand God, that does not mean God does not exist.

I'm just gonna have to disagree with you here Stan, because I believe pretty firmly that Hell is a literal place, referred to by God, as a Lake of Fire

John

 

[StanJ]

Hey Stan

The only way we can understand if a scripture, or specific word is figurative or not is to take it in context, so when we read the "fire of God", we know in this instance, fire is figurative.
However, when I read how Jesus created Hell, and Hell is always described as a place with eternal fire, I understand it to be a literal place, with literal fire. If you can show me a single example where Hell is described any other way, I'll listen

It also does NOT mean it isn't.

I doubt anyone could answer that Stan, but just because we can't understand God, that does not mean God does not exist.

I'm just gonna have to disagree with you here Stan, because I believe pretty firmly that Hell is a literal place, referred to by God, as a Lake of Fire

John

Scripture interprets itself, so if you read ALL of it you will be able to tell what is what. Hell is an English word, it is from hades or sheol which is the grave. The spiritual place where unbelievers wait for the judgment is shown by Jesus in Luke 16:24, and as it is a spiritual place, the language used is metaphorical, unless you actually believe a dead man can be thirsty?

I never said hell/hades/sheol wasn't a place, it just is not portrayed literally. There is a big difference. As I said before, use your spiritual eyes and heart when you read and not your physical heart and mind. Spirits are NOT effected by literal fire.

 

[walls of jericho941]

I think you and williemac are making the same mistake in the application of this scriptural passage. God isn't willing that anyone should perish, but that hope is extinguished by the choices we make in life, for people can put themselves beyond the redemption of God through sheer unforgivable acts. The gospels point this out, that there are sins that can't be forgiven, that we truly can be written off eternally even before we die based on decisions we make to permanently remove ourselves from the reach of grace. I believe the passage you and williemac quoted applies to every single baby that's born, that God hopes the baby will grow into a man or woman who loves him and will want to share eternity with him, but it's clear that in most cases, that doesn't happen.

And that's why I pointed out the reverse side of the beatitude about mercy, those who are merciless shall receive NO mercy. If indeed I'm correct that a serial pedophile and murderer of children cannot possibly be saved, it's not because God didn't offer that person salvation initially, as God does to every person, but it's rather that the person made clear by his actions he wanted nothing to do with God's goodness, so he was cut off from it. It's much the same way God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, cementing him in the decision he already made to refuse to release the Hebrew slaves.

I think what's lacking in your viewpoint and williemac's is a humble acknowledgement that God can have mercy upon whoever he wills and withhold it as well, for God is not a slot machine, and as God told Moses, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion." There's a sovereign decision that GOD ALONE makes when it comes to salvation. It's perhaps the only point of agreement I have with the Calvinists.

the fact remains(in both our views) its by our actions that cause God to give or with hold mercy. God rewards our actions, weather for good or bad. Thus we do have a choice. The choice is to accept or reject God and His ways.
Stan J, hell is literally portrayed. in revelation 9 verse one and two. The fifth angel was given the key to the bottomless pit, and once opened smoke came out of the pit and the sun and air were darkened by the smoke. This is real literal smoke that will be here on the earth. Unless of course you think the sun and sky are not literal, this seems pretty literal.

also in reply to what you said about genesis 1:1, I disagree with that. The word created in hebrew is bara'(transliterated) If we look at Joshua 17:18 we find this same verb bara' used in cutting down trees. And if we actually study this word it becomes obvious its original meaning was carving or cutting out, sculpting. That also falls in line with God forming adam from soil. That is, if we use scripture to interpret scripture.
Uhm, thats weird. I made two posts and it combined them into one. The second post starts with stan j. #57

edit: there is a total of three posts I made in this one post. It keeps adding it into one post. Is that default or a glitch?

 

[StanJ]

the fact remains(in both our views) its by our actions that cause God to give or with hold mercy. God rewards our actions, weather for good or bad. Thus we do have a choice. The choice is to accept or reject God and His ways.
Stan J, hell is literally portrayed. in revelation 9 verse one and two. The fifth angel was given the key to the bottomless pit, and once opened smoke came out of the pit and the sun and air were darkened by the smoke. This is real literal smoke that will be here on the earth. Unless of course you think the sun and sky are not literal, this seems pretty literal.

also in reply to what you said about genesis 1:1, I disagree with that. The word created in hebrew is bara'(transliterated) If we look at Joshua 17:18 we find this same verb bara' used in cutting down trees. And if we actually study this word it becomes obvious its original meaning was carving or cutting out, sculpting. That also falls in line with God forming adam from soil. That is, if we use scripture to interpret scripture.
Uhm, thats weird. I made two posts and it combined them into one. The second post starts with stan j. #57

edit: there is a total of three posts I made in this one post. It keeps adding it into one post. Is that default or a glitch?

This is the way the board works. If you answer the same post multiple times it combines it into one post....if you answer three or four different posts at the same time, it puts them all in one post in the order you answer them. In the case of the latter your posts are separated by the quotes from the different posts you answered.

 

[logabe]

This is true, from what little understanding I have on the subject, people pretty much become torment. they become their own pain and sorrow if that makes sense to anyone.
I will admitt that I have watched a lot of near death testimony on YouTube and read them in Christian web articles, and one of the themes that I have noticed to be unanimous among them is the statement that they understood and agreed fully with why they were there. they say they dont just experience the pain they literally become pain and they know why.
The the other thing they all agree on is the fact that they all scream the same thing "Dont come here" and "Do dont what I did" apparently trying to call out to family and friends to warn them.
Which as I write this I remember the account of Lazarus and the Rich man, and the rich man doing pretty much exactly that.

I have in my own life experienced going down in to the pit when I was a young teen and all I can really remember of that was all the screaming and yelling, I distinctly remember a lady's voice clear to this day telling me to go back. I have also experienced the presence of Christ and that is beyond words to express the joy and love I felt. that was the night I came to Christ for the first time. there is a massive contrast between the two events. Jesus is real and Hell is a very real place.

Do I believe in hell? Sure I do, but not the hell that I have been reading about on
this forum. We must study to show ourselves approved before God.

Let's understand what hell really is. What we are talking about is saving our soul.
Jesus said, a man can gain the whole world and lose his own soul.

Once a person accepts Jesus as his savior, his spirit has been justified ( saved )
from the ages to come. What do you mean? I mean you and I are living in the
midst of gehenna, but we view the situation with hope. But someone who hasn't
accepted Christ is living in the state of death, meaning they don't understand their
purpose for living. If they die in that state they will be resurrected in that state.
John 5:28-29 says,

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which
all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to
a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds
to a resurrection of judgment.

My point is, all will be raised, but most Christians believe that is where the evil
people go to hell forever. They are half right, but Jesus never said it was for
eternity. He did say, you want get out of hell (jail) until you have paid your last
pence. Matthew 18:34 says,

34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to
the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if
each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Did you see that? Jesus said he would forgive them after they repay all that they
owe. He also said, He will do the same to us if we don't learn to forgive from our
hearts. Meaning... he will throw us in hell until we have paid our debt of not truly
forgiving.

In essence, when we die without repenting, God will raise us up in the same state
that we died in. If you went to sleep (died ) without our spirit being justified, we
will be resurrected in the carnal mind. Paul said, to be carnally minded is death. Not
physical death, but spiritually dead to the things of God and that my friends is hell.

Hell is a state of mind, but when God puts us to sleep we know nothing. But God has
promised that he will not leave us that way, because Jesus died, and was raised. Now
an unbeliever can be resurrected to go into judgment after he/she has died without
Christ. What for? So they can learn the ways of the Lord like we are doing right now.
Isa. 26:9 says,

9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within
me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences
Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn
righteousness.

Notice what Isaiah said, the purpose of judgment was so the inhabitants of the earth
learn righteousness. Now, let's go read John 5:29, so we can put together the purpose
of judgment and begin to burn up the dung inside of our thinking, so we can see that
God is a righteous God.

What have we established? First of all, that God will not put us in hell ( the carnal mind)
forever, only until we have paid our debt. Secondly, that judgment doesn't mean God will
throw us into the Lake of Fire for eternity, but He puts us there to learn righteousness so
in time we can be released.

Is it much better if we accept Jesus before we die? You bet it is, but if your child doesn't
repent in his/her life, I have good news for you. Because of the acts of Jesus Christ, he will
be raised and be taught the wonderful gospel of Jesus the Christ.

The Blood of Jesus Christ will never ever lose it's power... not even in death.

Ole death where's your sting, ole grave ( hell ) where is you victory. It is swallowed up in the
victory of Jesus Christ.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Madad21]

Do I believe in hell? Sure I do, but not the hell that I have been reading about on
this forum. We must study to show ourselves approved before God.

Let's understand what hell really is. What we are talking about is saving our soul.
Jesus said, a man can gain the whole world and lose his own soul.

Once a person accepts Jesus as his savior, his spirit has been justified ( saved )
from the ages to come. What do you mean? I mean you and I are living in the
midst of gehenna, but we view the situation with hope. But someone who hasn't
accepted Christ is living in the state of death, meaning they don't understand their
purpose for living. If they die in that state they will be resurrected in that state.
John 5:28-29 says,

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which
all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to
a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds
to a resurrection of judgment.

My point is, all will be raised, but most Christians believe that is where the evil
people go to hell forever. They are half right, but Jesus never said it was for
eternity. He did say, you want get out of hell (jail) until you have paid your last
pence. Matthew 18:34 says,

34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to
the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if
each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Did you see that? Jesus said he would forgive them after they repay all that they
owe. He also said, He will do the same to us if we don't learn to forgive from our
hearts. Meaning... he will throw us in hell until we have paid our debt of not truly
forgiving.

In essence, when we die without repenting, God will raise us up in the same state
that we died in. If you went to sleep (died ) without our spirit being justified, we
will be resurrected in the carnal mind. Paul said, to be carnally minded is death. Not
physical death, but spiritually dead to the things of God and that my friends is hell.

Hell is a state of mind, but when God puts us to sleep we know nothing. But God has
promised that he will not leave us that way, because Jesus died, and was raised. Now
an unbeliever can be resurrected to go into judgment after he/she has died without
Christ. What for? So they can learn the ways of the Lord like we are doing right now.
Isa. 26:9 says,

9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within
me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences
Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn
righteousness.

Notice what Isaiah said, the purpose of judgment was so the inhabitants of the earth
learn righteousness. Now, let's go read John 5:29, so we can put together the purpose
of judgment and begin to burn up the dung inside of our thinking, so we can see that
God is a righteous God.

What have we established? First of all, that God will not put us in hell ( the carnal mind)
forever, only until we have paid our debt. Secondly, that judgment doesn't mean God will
throw us into the Lake of Fire for eternity, but He puts us there to learn righteousness so
in time we can be released.

Is it much better if we accept Jesus before we die? You bet it is, but if your child doesn't
repent in his/her life, I have good news for you. Because of the acts of Jesus Christ, he will
be raised and be taught the wonderful gospel of Jesus the Christ.

The Blood of Jesus Christ will never ever lose it's power... not even in death.

Ole death where's your sting, ole grave ( hell ) where is you victory. It is swallowed up in the
victory of Jesus Christ.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Soooo why did you quote me? :huh:
Also I think Jesus reveals quite a lot to us about the nature of hell in his account of Lazarus and the rich man I referred to earlier in this thread.

 

[StanJ]

Stan J, hell is literally portrayed. in revelation 9 verse one and two. The fifth angel was given the key to the bottomless pit, and once opened smoke came out of the pit and the sun and air were darkened by the smoke. This is real literal smoke that will be here on the earth. Unless of course you think the sun and sky are not literal, this seems pretty literal.

also in reply to what you said about genesis 1:1, I disagree with that. The word created in hebrew is bara'(transliterated) If we look at Joshua 17:18 we find this same verb bara' used in cutting down trees. And if we actually study this word it becomes obvious its original meaning was carving or cutting out, sculpting. That also falls in line with God forming adam from soil. That is, if we use scripture to interpret scripture.

Rev 9 does not describe hell, it describes Lucifer and what will be brought on the earth. He was the star that fell. The after life is NOT physical. Seems today we should be able to understand that, a lot more than people of some 5 - 8 thousand years ago.

The Hebrew word bârâ', is in the Qal stem here, and is properly rendered as created. It is wrong of you to use a connotation from a stem that is NOT in use.
You may want to learn a little more about how Hebrew is used before making these type of faulty assertions.

to create, shape, form

1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
   of heaven and earth
2. of individual man
3. of new conditions and circumstances
4. of transformation