Do you believe the lie?

[Hiddenthings]

You have decided what the Word teaches though the Word teaches you something different.

Christ is God.

So, would you say my assessment of your response is fair? that you were hesitant to look, perhaps out of fear of what you might find? Your second reply echoed the first.

Did you happen to overlook verse 13 and the surrounding context? Could it be a passage you've misquoted in the past?

 

[Zao is life]

It's astonishing what can emerge from the minds of men....often packaged in contradictions that, in the end, amount to little more than an unknowable mystery.

JW's . I can only shake my head.

I never opened my door to you. You have invaded a christian thread in a Christian forum to spread the doctrines of your cult. You seem to have agreed with Aunty Jane's doctrines, who is a JW.

I'm placing you on ignore.

 

[Zao is life]

So, would you say my assessment of your response is fair? that you were hesitant to look, perhaps out of fear of what you might find? Your second reply echoed the first.

Did you happen to overlook verse 13 and the surrounding context? Could it be a passage you've misquoted in the past?

You're on ignore now. It's not surprising that someone who twists scripture the way you do twists my words too.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Death is the enemy of God.

This holds great truth, yet your beliefs seem to miss how God has truly addressed death. Nevertheless, your approach suggests that you may not be receptive to learning.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You're on ignore now. It's not surprising that someone who twists scripture the way you do twists my words too.

Interesting response, Zao. I’m not sure how others will perceive the OP of a thread ignoring a polite request to consider a single verse. Such a reaction might lead them to 1 Timothy 6:13 and help explain why this overreaction occurred.

 

[Hiddenthings]

JW's . I can only shake my head.

I never opened my door to you. You have invaded a christian thread in a Christian forum to spread the doctrines of your cult. You seem to have agreed with Aunty Jane's doctrines, who is a JW.

I'm placing you on ignore.

Just to clarify, I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness, though I respect them for having the courage to search for truth, even when it contradicts mainstream doctrine.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Adam evidently did not possess (his own) immortality, or have eternal life IN HIMSELF, but of Christ, the Son of God it is written that "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality" (1 Timothy 6:15-16); and "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" (John 5:26).​

Error can be subtle, and it's easy for someone with a preconceived belief to overlook what is actually written, allowing their own biases to shape their understanding. Being corrected can be uncomfortable, but it should never lead to shame; instead, it should be an opportunity for learning and growth.

All Scholars worthy of the title will attribute this Immortality to God "alone".

Here is a Trinitarian Theologian speaking to 1 Timothy 6:15,16

In verses 15–16, Paul offers seven statements of profound praise to God in a moving doxology. In verse 15, he uses three titles to describe God, reflecting a Jewish style of worship that highlights God's unique sovereignty. As the “blessed and only Ruler,” God holds universal authority over the exact time of Christ's return. The titles “King of kings and Lord of lords” emphasize God's supreme authority over all powers, both human and divine (see Deut 10:17; Ps 136:2–3).

Thomas D. Lea and Hayne P. Griffin, 1, 2 Timothy, Titus, vol. 34 of The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1992), 174

If Zao has misinterpreted 1 Timothy 3:16, what other Scriptures might also be misunderstood?

 

[Zao is life]

Error can be subtle, and it's easy for someone with a preconceived belief to overlook what is actually written, allowing their own biases to shape their understanding. Being corrected can be uncomfortable, but it should never lead to shame; instead, it should be an opportunity for learning and growth.

Another baiting false statement calculated to cause me to take you off ignore and respond.

Not only are you propagating your own false (JW inspired) doctrines here, but now in your above post you have excused yourself for your error and made it clear that you don't feel uncomfortable nor ashamed about it.

I agree, you shouldn't necessarily feel ashamed, but unfortunately you have just proved in your above post that correction in your case will not provide an opportunity for learning and growth for you.

It's pointless asking you to go back to the unorthodox doctrine forum without posting anymore in the forums for Christian debate (which you are not supposed to be posting in), because you already sneaked in here by the back door and showed yourself up.

Answer this question please:

Is Christ God?

If someone does not know that Jesus is God and does not know Him as God, then person does not know Him at all. And their denial of biblical truth (like in the above case) will show that the person's human intellect is not guided into truth by the Holy Spirit and the unaltered, adulterated scriptures. Once you know this it will be an opportunity for you to learn and grow, @Hiddenthings .

Only when you know the truth will the truth set you free. Your mind is clearly in bondage to JW falsehoods.

 

[Zao is life]

Just to clarify, I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness, though I respect them for having the courage to search for truth, even when it contradicts mainstream doctrine.

But you do propagate their false doctrines.

Please answer this question:

Is Christ Jesus God in the flesh?

Yes or no.

 

[Zao is life]

Interesting response, Zao. I’m not sure how others will perceive the OP of a thread ignoring a polite request to consider a single verse. Such a reaction might lead them to 1 Timothy 6:13 and help explain why this overreaction occurred.

LOL. First you twist what a single text is saying, then say I never responded because I never responded with support for your twisting of the text.

 

[Zao is life]

So, would you say my assessment of your response is fair? that you were hesitant to look, perhaps out of fear of what you might find? Your second reply echoed the first.

Did you happen to overlook verse 13 and the surrounding context? Could it be a passage you've misquoted in the past?

Is Christ Jesus God in the flesh @Hiddenthings ?

Yes or no. Please answer.

 

[marks]

I'm going to agree to disagree with you on it because we are just going to be going around in circles.

Regardless of all this the passage still says what it says.

And the plain fact is, your interpretation is in direct contradiction to a number of other passages.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

@Hiddenthings here, despite his refusal to answer the simple question: Is Christ Jesus God, nevertheless had demanded that I respond to his deliberate taking of this subject off topic by pointing out his misinterpretation of 1 Timothy 6:13, so just for the sake of those who believe and know that our Lord Jesus Christ is God who came in the flesh to die and rise again for us after His dead body was quickened [zoopoieo] and raised for us, I'll do so:-

"I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth [zoopoieo] all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession" (1 Timothy 6:13).

Just to be clear, even though the person who brought up this subject is deliberately attempting to derail the thread by changing the subject, and rudely falsely accusing me of deliberately ignoring his demand I speak about the above verse (which no doubt he wants to push his own misinterpretation of the meaning of),

the word quickening [zoopoieo] in 1 Timothy 6:13 refers to God making alive again that which was dead (multiple times in the New Testament), as shown in the quotes below.

In all the verses below, the word refers to (A) the quickening of Christ's dead body by the Spirit of God and raising Him from the dead, as well as (through and with) Christ's quickening and resurrection, (B) the quickening of our dead bodies and us being raised again from the dead.

God is the one who gives life (as my previous posts have indeed said - in Him is life and He GIVES life IN CHRIST to those who are IN CHRIST),

and He quickens the dead (makes the dead alive again) through Christ who is the Word of God in whom is (eternal life) (John 1:4) and who became flesh.

So take a look at the verses and take note of the fact that they are all talking about God quickening the dead, and all using the same word:

"Fool ! That which you sow is not quickened [zoopoieo], except it die." (1 Corinthians 15:36)

"..except it die.":

Paul was answering the question: "How are the dead raised [egeiro]? With what kind of body [soma] will they come?" (1 Corinthians 15:35), and he was talking about the resurrection of the body from death/the dead.

When Jesus died, His Spirit did not die: His soul went into hades (Acts 2:27), where by the Spirit he preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:18-20),

and His dead body, being quickened [zoopoieo] (made alive by the Spirit), was raised from the dead.

So take note of the Greek words [syzoopoieo] and [synegeiro] in the following verses referring to the quickening of the dead, and the raising of the dead:

Colossians 2:12-13
"Ye are buried with him in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [synegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses."

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved); and has raised us up together [synegeírō] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22).

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Ephesians 2:4-6, like Colossians 2:12-13, is talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him:

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

(i) The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in all the above verses.

(ii) The words egeiro, synegeiro and anastasis - whenever they are referring to resurrection from death - are always referring to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament.

Many Christians have misunderstood these verses quoted above (through non-deliberate ignorance), and cannot be blamed, nor should they feel ashamed - UNLESS they willfully continue to change the meaning of the word "quickening" in scripture to be referring to something it is NOT referring to:

So take a look at the same quickening and raising of the dead body being referred to in 1 Timothy 6:13:

1 Timothy 6
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth [zoopoieo] all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath (possesses in Himself) immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.​

 

[Zao is life]

Regardless of all this the passage still says what it says.

And the plain fact is, your interpretation is in direct contradiction to a number of other passages.

Much love!

Okay. In your opinion, not in my opinion or the opinion of many others besides me. So "not fact".

But God bless you it does not make me mad that you don't see what I see and read the very same verses differently.

It's just the way it is. My human intellect verses yours and the Holy Spirit of our Lord knowing who is correct and who is incorrect between us.

 

[marks]

Okay. In your opinion, not in my opinion or the opinion of many others besides me. So "not fact".

But God bless you it does not make me mad that you don't see what I see and read the very same verses differently.

It's just the way it is. My human intellect verses yours and the Holy Spirit of our Lord knowing who is correct and who is incorrect between us.

Fact is not determined by numbers. I'm glad you aren't getting angry over this, that is good!

I will merely continue to implore you to stick to exactly what is written, not more, not less.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you are risen with Him now, you shall appear with Him then.

These things are plainly stated Scripture.

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

I will merely continue to implore you to stick to exactly what is written, not more, not less.

Much love!

Likewise - because like many others, I have not seen you do that with regard to the way you start to read scripture with a premise of OSAS, and then interpret all biblical texts in such a way as to ensure that they comply with the premise.

Like many others, I've found that by starting with no premise at all, scripture leads to NOSAS. The one who was abiding in the Vine and leaves the Vine will wither and die and be cast out.

 

[marks]

My human intellect verses yours

No, not at all. That's not what this is about in the slightest, at least for me. We share the same Holy Spirit, and are reading the same Bible.

Ephesians 4:13-15 KJV
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Much love!

 

[marks]

Likewise - because like many others, I have not seen you do that with regard to the way you start to read scripture with a premise of OSAS, and then interpret all biblical texts in such a way as to ensure that they comply with the premise.

Show me the Scritpure, let's look at it together.

the way you start to read scripture with a premise of OSAS

This is, simply stated, false, deflects from the discussion, as a way to marginalize my assertions. You can disregard what I have to say, but your habit of putting this off onto others, including myself, doesn't fly.

Again, you have no such knowledge of me, and have put up this wall. This is going to be up to you. Do you truly love the truth?

Much love!

 

[Zao is life]

Show me the Scritpure, let's look at it together.

the way you start to read scripture with a premise of OSAS

This is, simply stated, false, deflects from the discussion, as a way to marginalize my assertions. You can disregard what I have to say, but your habit of putting this off onto others, including myself, doesn't fly.

Again, you have no such knowledge of me, and have put up this wall. This is going to be up to you. Do you truly love the truth?

Much love!

We're already stuck on your misinterpretation of the scriptures we have already discussed - two passages that already you have shown that you interpret in such a way as to ensure it complies with your OSAS premise.

So, sorry, but no more going round in circles.

 

[marks]

I've found that by starting with no premise at all, scripture leads to NOSAS.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Do you believe this is true exactly as written? I do. What it says, clear, plain, is that, we are now the sons of God, and we know that when Jesus appears we will be like Him.

Do you know that? Is this true? Everyone who has this hope (expectation based on faith) purifies themself. Do you have this hope?

For myself, I implicitly believe the Bible, and I implicitly believe this passage, and I have this hope. Do you?

Much love!