Do you believe the lie?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is this all you have in response? You didn’t address a single thing…but that is not unexpected….when you have no answers you deflect with attacks….attacks are not defense.

Just answer the questions I put to you…..or are they too difficult?

LOL! I have addressed A LOT of what you've said and you dismiss it all and say I just believe what I do because I'm reading mistranslations of all those many verses which teach that Jesus is God. I have better things to do than try to debate someone who dismisses every single verse I use to support my view as having been mistranslated. What a joke. Get a clue. I'm done with this.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hahaha! This is too funny. Guess what? They don't all agree with each other.

Pick your scholars….

Also, the translators of the English translations were/are fluent in the Bible's languages and you disagree with how they translated many verses. So, what is the point of this question?

What do you accept as truth? We will all be judged on the choices we make, but more importantly, on the reasons for those choices.

No matter what anyone says, we should be like the Bereans and study the scriptures for ourselves to see if what people say about the scriptures is true (Acts 17:10-11). That requires more than just studying the works of others, but requires submitting to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to help us understand what we're reading. Human wisdom alone is not going to lead us to the truth because it is fallible. Scripture says to not lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6). We need the Holy Spirit's guidance (1 Corinthians 2:9-16).

You assume a great deal…..I am a very diligent Bible student and always have been. I must prove things to myself and the Bible as a whole tells me the entire story, not just a small portion of it.
God’s spirit plays a big part in my studies…..and in my conclusions. Suffice it to say we will all stand before the same judge…..the majority will be offering their excuses to the one they call “Lord”…..but he will respond with words that will rip them in two. “I never knew you”. (Matt 7:21-23)

Let’s just wait and see who are abandoned and who are accepted. Jesus knows his own even if we do not….and that is all that matters.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God’s spirit plays a big part in my studies

Using a lowercase "s" for God's Holy Spirit says it all about you.

John 14:26 (NASB): But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I said to you.

John 15:6 (NASB): “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, namely, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you are testifying as well, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

I quoted these from the NASB which you have quoted from before. Of course, you don't accept how it translates many verses, so why you would use it at all is beyond me.

 

[Davidpt]

And you won’t, because all the mistranslations are designed to keep you hooked on a doctrine that Jesus himself never taught. The translators of the Bibles you accept were all trinitarians and so the translation bias is not obvious to you…..you see what you want to see, and believe what you want to believe, because of that bias in translation.….swallowed…hook, line and sinker.

Jesus said that if you build on a faulty foundation, no matter how impressive the outside appears to be, it will crumble when the storm hits….and the storm is coming.
It is the “many” who build on this faulty foundation according to Jesus…..and “few” will be found on the road to life…..why? (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

I use them because the truth is still contained in the Bibles that those in Christendom use….by using your own translations you cannot accuse me of referring to the NWT to back up my points. You overlook what you don’t want to see. You wouldn’t believe anything I quoted from the NWT, but you have to believe the translations that you all accept.

I like to compare different translation with a Concordance and an Interlinear……and I have to say that is very enlightening. Never have I been disappointed in the NWT’s rendering.

No, but I study the works of those who are fluent in the Bible’s languages….what about you?

My imagination has nothing to do with my conclusions….I simply take the whole Bible as one story, with one author, who tells us what happened in Eden, and how he sent his son to rectify everything so that his first purpose in creating humans to live on the earth forever, will be achieved. (Isa 55:11)

What was God’s first purpose in putting us humans here on this carefully prepared planet…..and why did he give his children free will when it has created so many problems for us? What was the reason why God chose some for life in heaven? Can you tell me?

What did Thomas believe concerning his Lord Jesus? Was he out of harmony with the other apostles, of whom Paul spoke collectively when he identified “the Father” as their ”one God”? AND Jesus as their “one Lord”? (1 Cor 8:5-6)

If the word “theos” means…

“a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”……and can also mean….

1. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      
      1. of magistrates and judges” (Strongs)

What did Thomas’ expression really mean? He called Jesus “theos” but not “ho theos”……that one little word (“ho”) that is invariably missing from English translations of the Bible, most notably in John 1:1.
Only one “theos” in that verse is “ho theos” meaning Yahweh/Jehovah….the other is just “theos”.

Jesus is never referred to as “ho theos”.

So then what was Thomas actually saying”? Was he saying that Jesus was Yahweh? For a Jew that would be blasphemy! Jesus and his apostles, as well as his target audience, were all Jewish.

Even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4….is he Yahweh?
Paul referred to the “many gods” of this world as “theos”. (1 Cor 8:5-6)
The word doesn’t have the exclusive meaning that Christendom wants to give it.

The depth of study in Christendom’s “theology” never even scratches the surface when it comes to genuine study of the Scriptures as a whole…..they cherry pick their mistranslated verses to prop up a doctrine that Jesus and his apostles never taught.

Since you brought up John 1:1, well there is also verse 3 in that same chapter.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:3 says Jesus made everything.

It undeniably says nothing that was made came into being without him.

Which would have to mean per your view that since Jesus Himself was made, then He would be part of the category of things that were made.

But the verse says nothing that was made came into being without Jesus.

Therefore, Jesus could not have been made, because that would mean He made himself, which is logically impossible.

You might argue that God first made Jesus, then after He made Him, this then is applicable--but not before He made Him, but after He made Him---and without him was not any thing made that was made. Which then undeniably contradicts this part---All things were made by him. How could He make Himself? Or how could God make Jesus and that it then equals, without him was not any thing made that was made? How can everything that was made, which would have to include Jesus per your view, be made without Jesus, including Himself, since you are arguing that Jesus was a created being?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Adam evidently did not possess (his own) immortality, or have eternal life IN HIMSELF, but of Christ, the Son of God it is written that "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality" (1 Timothy 6:15-16); and "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" (John 5:26).

The Son of God alone can possess immortality, because the Creator alone has eternal life in Himself. ​

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One,
and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen.
And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.​

Christ alone can possess the keys of hades and of death, because He died, and rose again from the dead because death could not hold Him. He is the Word of God in Whom is life [zoe], made flesh (John 1:4,14).

Immortality - which is associated with being alive in a human body that does not die - is dependent upon having eternal life, but life exists IN God alone, and only because God exists. Without the existence of God there is no life. Paul said,​

"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being;
For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).​

No CREATED human being has eternal life in himself. The eternal life of any created human being who has been given eternal life is in Christ: Jesus told those who believed in Him:​

​

Zao, as I was reading your post, I wasn’t sure whether 1 Timothy 6:15–16 may have been misapplied, or if perhaps the significance of verse 13 wasn’t fully considered. It seems possible that there’s some confusion between the One who alone possesses immortality, the sole Giver of life and the one to whom that life was granted. As the Gospel clearly states: “concerning His Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and was declared to be the Son of God with power... by the resurrection from the dead” (Romans 1:3–4).

I’d really encourage you to take a closer look at the context of 1 Timothy 6. I believe you’ll see that the One who possesses immortality is not Christ himself, but His Father (his God). This is in line with the consistent testimony of the Gospels and the Epistles. Don’t get me wrong, I understand why you might be inclined to read it that way. But in all honesty, attributing to the Son what belongs uniquely to the Father risks diminishing God's sovereign power, something the Lord Jesus himself would never endorse.

God is the one who “gives life to all things” (1 Tim 6:13) and that statement actually appears in the same Greek sentence as “who alone has immortality,” which is significant. He has within Himself an endless source of creative power, never drained, never diminished. As Jeremiah says, “He is the living God and the everlasting King” (Jer 10:10), and He’s the same “living God” who works in both the physical world (Acts 14:15–17) and the spiritual (1 Tim 4:10).

Jesus was granted immortality by his resurrection from the dead when His Father & God raised him. Because of his sinless life and obedient death, he now holds the keys to death and the grave, meaning he has the authority to give life to what was once dead. The full weight of Rev 1:17-18 reveals he did not have any of these qualities prior to him being given life.

Of course, Revelation 1:17–18 loses its meaning entirely if Jesus is God in the absolute sense, there’s no true victory, no “firstfruits” significance. Everything spoken of as given to him by God, his inheritance...wouldn’t truly be an inheritance at all. Imagine that!

 

[Hiddenthings]

You might argue that God first made Jesus, then after He made Him, this then is applicable--but not before He made Him, but after He made Him---and without him was not any thing made that was made. Which then undeniably contradicts this part---All things were made by him. How could He make Himself? Or how could God make Jesus and that it then equals, without him was not any thing made that was made? How can everything that was made, which would have to include Jesus per your view, be made without Jesus, including Himself, since you are arguing that Jesus was a created being?

Have you considered the implications if Jesus was not brought into being by the Logos of God? Where do you see the greatest impact on the Gospel if Jesus did not become the Word made flesh, but instead was always the Word made flesh?

 

[Hiddenthings]

.I am a very diligent Bible student and always have been. I must prove things to myself and the Bible as a whole tells me the entire story, not just a small portion of it.

I agree with your general point; however, I believe your understanding of the nature of angels and the saints is somewhat lacking, I don’t think that area has been fully examined or tested (more work to do here!).

Also, it’s important to note that the throne promised to Christ, and the one the Apostles expected him to ascend to, is on earth.

As Matthew 25:31 says: “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.”

What is the throne of his glory? Well, it's the one his Father promised him (and David)...

“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give him the throne of His father David. And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Luke 1:32–33)

More study could be done here also.