Do you belong to "the [true] Church" (1 Tim 3:15)?, if so, how do you prove it?

[mjrhealth]

Seriously? You have got to be kidding me.

I think that it has to be an essential of the faith to understand that the Bible is holy and inspired by God.

No it is essential to faith to be led by His spirit that He promised all those who believe, just look at this forum and we see what too much bible study does, and so little of His Spirit.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

That is where men get there revelation from.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jesus promised us the best wine at the last, just like it was at the wedding, the water into wine.

Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

When we trust Him we will never go wrong , well less often.

 

[Helen]

Seriously? You have got to be kidding me.

I think that it has to be an essential of the faith to understand that the Bible is holy and inspired by God.

Hi there.

I think I know what he means. The Book itself is not “holy” of itself.
Someone, not God, stuck the work “holy” on it.

We all know that the word bible just means book.

The book itself if a load of ink and paper...the God who inspired it , and speaks through it , is Holy.
He and He alone makes the inspired book precious.

The book, without God’s Spirit, is just a book.

I think that is what he means .

 

[brakelite]

And just by faith and mjr can't even agree on what sin is... And they presume to accuse Adventists of being confused as to what is truth!!! Again, the irony.

No it does not, God is not the law, God is love , Jesus is love, Love is His character, Grace reflects His character because Grace is just that flexible, the law is not

And yet love is the fulfilling of the law. You don't get it mate.

In that discourse it did not mention the primary reason why we are forgiven...through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.



See Galatians 6:13. It was not satan, but Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, who said that even those who are circumcised don't keep the law. These are the same people who are trying to get everyone else circumcised, as though it meant salvation.

If those who were sticklers for keeping the law, and who made keeping the law their one goal in life, could not keep it, what makes you think that you can or even do keep the law?

Because God promises that anything is possible to them that believe.

Also, consider that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); but that we need to take the following into account:

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Exactly. And neither you nor mjr believe it possible to keep God commandments... Little wonder then that you don't. Remember, the just shall live by faith not the disobedient.

 

[quietthinker]

The reality is, no one is justified through keeping the law:

What you don't seem to understand justbyfaith or perhaps it is that you choose to misunderstand is that no one is saying that one is justified by keeping the law....that has been clarified infinitum. By bringing this charge repeatedly, evidence that your ears are stopped to what is actually being said is evident.

The truth of the matter is you and some others here are opposed to God's Law and you are opposed to it because it condemns you as a sinner including the Sabbath Commandment. It is the 4th Commandment which raises your ire because it opposes the position of the Catholic church to which of course you cow tow. There is no ambiguity here.

As you well know, she claims the change from the 7th day to the 1st day as a sign of her perceived authority. By protestants honouring it over and above the 7th day as per the Commandment you acknowledge her authority. Perhaps you might like to look at other of the Law (10C's) she has altered to suit her carnal designs.

 

[mjrhealth]

And yet love is the fulfilling of the law. You don't get it mate.

Oh yes I do, without the law, no man can boast can they.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph_2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or that other bit

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

But continue as you must, every one you cause to stumble you will be held accountable, if you must,

Bu tin your messed up religion, Jesus died to fulfilled the law, than you demand He help you keep the law that He fulfilled, why so you can come here and boast

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[brakelite]

Bu tin your messed up religion, Jesus died to fulfilled the law, than you demand He help you keep the law that He fulfilled, why so you can come here and boast

please explain how fulfill means cancel. How His obedience means we don't have to. No, you still don't get it.

 

[ReChoired]

leaning on the exclusivity of ones church is a spiritual weakness

I lean upon God's 'weakness' then, rather than mine own strength:

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​

Jesus, the Head of the One True Church, is most exclusive, when it comes to truth and error, light and darkness, good and evil, love and selfishness. Psalms 77:13, there is no other way, as it is written:

Joh_10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.​

 

[ReChoired]

please explain how fulfill means cancel. How His obedience means we don't have to. No, you still don't get it.

Notice how they "always" stop at Ephesians 2:9 and how they read half a verse and misunderstand "end" therein:

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

 

[Cooper]

The apostles were Pentecostal.

 

[justbyfaith]

No it is essential to faith to be led by His spirit

That too.

Hi there.

I think I know what he means. The Book itself is not “holy” of itself.
Someone, not God, stuck the work “holy” on it.

We all know that the word bible just means book.

2Ti 3:15, And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I consider that everything written is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness; but that it is only what is written that is holy that is able to make us wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

In other words, there is scripture and there is holy scripture.

I believe that holy scripture is exclusively contained in the library of books we call "The Holy Bible".

Exactly. And neither you nor mjr believe it possible to keep God commandments... Little wonder then that you don't. Remember, the just shall live by faith not the disobedient.

I'm glad for you that you are able to wear daily tzitzit and tallit and tefilin...as for me, I do not have access to those things; so I currently continue to fall short of God's glory in that area. I probably never will go to the extent of wearing tefilin; that would be tantamount to becoming an orthodox Jew. And I believe that the whole of the Bible teaches that we do not have to become Jews in order to remain Christians.

What you don't seem to understand justbyfaith or perhaps it is that you choose to misunderstand is that no one is saying that one is justified by keeping the law....that has been clarified infinitum. By bringing this charge repeatedly, evidence that your ears are stopped to what is actually being said is evident.

I suppose that you think it is a bad thing that I preach what I preach in order to safeguard people against making that conclusion (that we are justified by the law); since that mistake could easily be made with the preaching of SDA people here.

The truth of the matter is you and some others here are opposed to God's Law and you are opposed to it because it condemns you as a sinner including the Sabbath Commandment.

Yes, I know that I am a sinner based on what God's law teaches. So are you. See Romans 3:23. Both you and I have sinned and in the present tense come short of the glory of God. The good news is that we are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

It is the 4th Commandment which raises your ire because it opposes the position of the Catholic church to which of course you cow tow. There is no ambiguity here.

I do not tow the Catholic line in this. I normally rest on the sabbath day.

Of course, the sabbath law does not require that you worship the Lord on Saturday.

We worship on the first day of the week because it was the day of the week that Jesus rose from the dead (Matthew 28:1; see also Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[brakelite]

Notice how they "always" stop at Ephesians 2:9 and how they read half a verse and misunderstand "end" therein:

Rom_10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

Yes, and no man can glory, even in his obedience. "Without Me ye can do nothing" does not mean "ye can do nothing", nor does it mean "ye need not do anything", nor does it mean, "ye cannot do anything". It simply means, "ye can do stuff, even all things, but you need Me beside you at all times". Christ in us, the hope of glory.
KJV Matthew 19
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
KJV Mark 9
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

What is sad is that so much of the church defames the power of God by claiming that sin cannot be overcome. Why? Because they don't believe in the above promises. They have so little faith. What did Jesus say regarding power over demons? Faith as a mustard seed? Enough to remove mountains? Is it easier to remove a mountain or stop lust?

 

[brakelite]

The further we go in this thread the more the Babylonian confusion becomes apparent among the non Adventists here. You cannot now agree as to what degree the Bible or the scriptures is to be held with regards authority or inspiration. Some say holy, others not. Some say complete authority, others say no, our priests must interpret it for you. Others still say no, the spirit in you is more authoritative.
You cannot even accept the testimony of others without adding straw men in support of your rejection of God commandments....

I'm glad for you that you are able to wear daily tzitzit and tallit and tefilin.

Did God write the above on stone, or did Moses write that on parchment. Which do you think was the more permanent? Which do you believe Christians should observe? Do you truly believe Adventists are advocating this, or are you being deliberately obtuse,? When are people going to grow up and talk about these things as adults?

that we are justified by the law); since that mistake could easily be made with the preaching of SDA people here.

Again, I would ask for a quote from one seventh Day Adventist in this forum that suggests we are justified by obedience to God commandments. Yet you make that your stock excuse... Your default comeback.
The question you need to ponder is this...
Can a Christian justify disobeying the Ten Commandments? If a non believer cannot justify sin and God holds him accountable...How can a believer?

 

[justbyfaith]

The further we go in this thread the more the Babylonian confusion becomes apparent among the non Adventists here. You cannot now agree as to what degree the Bible or the scriptures is to be held with regards authority or inspiration. Some say holy, others not. Some say complete authority, others say no, our priests must interpret it for you. Others still say no, the spirit in you is more authoritative.
You cannot even accept the testimony of others without adding straw men in support of your rejection of God commandments....

Obviously this is an Adventist thread, so you can make this case here. If it were a Oneness thread, then I could make a case that the SDA people are disunified with the rest of those who disagree with Oneness doctrine.

Because all of us are not of one kind of church who are dealing with you SDA's here. We all come from backgrounds that are different. If any of us is born again of the Holy Spirit, then we are in agreement as to what the gospel is...that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures. I would say that God loves diversity and accepts people on the basis of the essential mentioned just above.

Did God write the above on stone, or did Moses write that on parchment. Which do you think was the more permanent? Which do you believe Christians should observe? Do you truly believe Adventists are advocating this, or are you being deliberately obtuse,? When are people going to grow up and talk about these things as adults?

In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus says that the least of the commandments are valid and that those who do and teach them will be called great in the kingdom. So it is not just what is written on the stone tablets that is the law; but the 613 moral tenets given in the Torah also apply.

Again, I would ask for a quote from one seventh Day Adventist in this forum that suggests we are justified by obedience to God commandments.

Here you go (for I believe that it is clear to all that you yourself are SDA)...

Can a Christian justify disobeying the Ten Commandments? If a non believer cannot justify sin and God holds him accountable...How can a believer?

Answer: We are forgiven through the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:9).

And yes, it is clear that after asking me for one example, you proceeded to provide me with one.

 

[brakelite]

Obviously this is an Adventist thread, so you can make this case here. If it were a Oneness thread, then I could make a case that the SDA people are disunified with the rest of those who disagree with Oneness doctrine.

Because all of us are not of one kind of church who are dealing with you SDA's here. We all come from backgrounds that are different. If any of us is born again of the Holy Spirit, then we are in agreement as to what the gospel is...that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures. I would say that God loves diversity and accepts people on the basis of the essential mentioned just above.



In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus says that the least of the commandments are valid and that those who do and teach them will be called great in the kingdom. So it is not just what is written on the stone tablets that is the law; but the 613 moral tenets given in the Torah also apply.



Here you go (for I believe that it is clear to all that you yourself are SDA)...



Answer: We are forgiven through the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:9).

And yes, it is clear that after asking me for one example, you proceeded to provide me with one.

No, I gave no such example. There is a vast difference between claiming justification is attained by obedience, and presuming justification is retained without it.

If any of us is born again of the Holy Spirit, then we are in agreement as to what the gospel is..

Highly debatable. The only thing you are all agreeing to is your collective denial of what the Bible says characterises the church of the last days... Revelation 12:17 and 14:12.

 

[marksman]

I suppose that all comes down to which religion you belong to. This one will blow up for sure.

"This one.": Which religion is "this one?"

 

[marksman]

I am not asking for men's opinions. 1 Timothy 3:15 states that there is "the" (definite article) true church. In another place it states "one faith" (Ephesians 4:5). There are not many true churches. There is only one. Revelation 12 is one place which shows this. One woman. Not many as the harlots of the Great Whore (Roman Catholicism).

You are setting the cat amongst the pigeons. Well done!!

I notice that the verse in 1 Timothy 3:15 in the greek that where it says about knowing how to behave in the house of God, it means a dwelling and more implicitly a family. So that gives credence to the verse that says where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am in the midst.

Which means of course that numbers are irrelevant.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, I gave no such example.

You did.

There is a vast difference between claiming justification is attained by obedience, and presuming justification is retained without it.

Yes, they are exact opposites. Therefore in your belief that justification is not retained without obedience, you are claiming that justification is attained or maintained by it.

I would contend that it is not obedience that obtains and/or maintains our salvation; but that it is our salvation that obtains and/or maintains our obedience.

Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This is a major aspect of the gospel of Jesus Christ in a nutshell.

Our obedience to the law does not justify us (Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:10).

Rather, we are justified freely by his grace (unmerited favour).

 

[ReChoired]

Obviously this is an [Seventh-day] Adventist thread ...

Only because it is 'the Bible thread' first.

 

[ReChoired]

...Our obedience to the law does not justify us ...

Which of the Seventh-day Adventists in this thread, ever said otherwise?

We teach (and constantly state, though strawmen by others (non-Seventh-day Adventist) are continually produced otherwise):

Isa_45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.​

The foundation and position of the Seventh-day Adventist movement.

 

[mjrhealth]

please explain how fulfill means cancel. How His obedience means we don't have to. No, you still don't get it.

Oh you mean you still dont get it.

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

But that is exactly what you have done.

Mar 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles

Mixing the law and the Spirit, the hold and the new, and look at what is has done to you and your religion, created an abomination.