Do you really think you live up to the righteousness of Christ?

[Robbie]

Really Prentis? You can't even hear what he's saying because you already have made up in your mind that he's not saying it?

Come on dude... count it all garbage... throw it out... listen!!!

Come on... HEAR IT!!!

I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection...

How are you going to say he counted his self righteousness rubbish only to return to trying to be made through righteous by his own righteousness again... don't you remember when he freaked out about the people that were being bewitched into thinking so?

It's not his own righteousness man...

 

[Prentis]

Exactly, he walks by the rigteousness of Christ. We have been made alive in the righteousness of Christ, and we are also to walk in the righteousness of Christ.

God has made a way brother; it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me. Christ walks through us, then, and makes us like him. It's not our righteousness, it's his, because it is how HE is and HE makes us so.

Is God so weak that a body of flesh can stop him from conforming us to the image of Christ? If so, why then, when the same God took on the flesh himself was he not weak, but perfect, walking in his righteousness?

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
Brother, Christ has laid hold of us, and we must lay hold of what he has laid hold of for us. Christ making us a new creation is not an end, but a means that we might be like him, transformed into his image.

 

[Robbie]

Dude... Paul saw the truth of what a wretched man he is... even though he was blameless according to the law... he threw all his self righteousness in the trash... in exchange for the righteousness that was not his own... it had nothing to do with him... other than he had faith in it... it was Christ alone that was his righteousness...

You can't see the truth of how wretched you are because you're deceived into believing your works can make you righteous before God... and because of that you can't see how perfect the Father's love for you is in that He made the ultimate expression of Love when His Son laid down His life for you so you could throw your dirty rags in the trash and be clothed in His righteousness...

I'm afraid if you're not building on the righteousness that is not your own... Who is Christ... you're building on yourself man and when you do that nothing will be saved.

It's about knowing who you are and knowing who He is and realizing He loves you anyways... that perfect love both casts out fear and gives assurance of salvation... you have neither... I'll just leave it at that...

 

[Prentis]

Jesus telle me 'Fear God' and he tells me 'he who tries to save his life will lose it, and he who loses it for my sake will save it'.

There is neither assurance nor love that is without fear.

Answer me this one thing.

If Christ says the truth when he says 'to who much is given, much is required', how then can it be true that to the one who receives the most, new life in Christ, the least is expected, nothing?

If we receive much, we are responsible for that. God is a just God, and we don't hide behind his love, we walk by it, therefore becoming like him and not being condemned.

Today mean preach 'To who much is given, nothing is required', the opposite of the message of Christ, and somehow do it in his name. Christianity has been perverted by those who were called to bear it, and as Christ warns, the unfaithful servant will be cast out. If we ignore so great a salvation, that of our very soul (to which it says we must endure), how can we be excused?

We are to overcome, to move forward, and to walk in the life of Christ. Nodoby gets crucified for saying 'just take this gift, and you can be God's favorite'. He has no favorites. We must obey him.

 

[Robbie]

I believe He's talking about revelation...

For me I have a lot of revelation about this subject because of life experiences...

I've literally seen someone come to the Lord that had a disease and they were healed and they went to the doctor and were tested and it was gone and then they started going to a legalistic church and as they got puffed up and judgmental and started adding to grace their own self righteousness the disease came back... and then when they stopped going to the church and turned back to faith in Christ alone the disease was gone again.

I saw the curse leave when they trusted in His righteousness... and I saw the curse come back when they trusted in their own... and that's just one example...

So for me I've been given much in this particular area... so Christ expects a lot from me... because for me to just turn my back on you and do what I wanted today would have been me walking completely selfish and not loving you...

But that isn't what saves me... that's just proof that Christ is working in me because if it was 10 years ago the last thing I would have been doing was talking to you about God when the waves were good.. haha

So yeah...

 

[Prentis]

Then what does 'much is required mean', if it doesn't mean you can be cut off? It just means 'you should give much'?

We are called to be faithful, and if we are not, we will be cut off.

Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. [sup]2[/sup] Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. [sup]3[/sup] But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.[sup][a][/sup] In fact, I do not even judge myself. [sup]4[/sup] For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. [sup]5[/sup] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

 

[Duckybill]

The 'once saved always saved' Satanic doctrine will lead MANY to Hell forever.

 

[goodshepard55]

Romans3:

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:

5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

 

[brionne]

So what is the level of self righteousness you think you're going to add to the blood of Christ in order ot be saved?

I mean... unless your just talking about God's work in our life which is apart from salvation... and which is amazing and beautiful... but has nothing to do with salvation...

righteousness does have something to do with salvation....the scriptures have much to say about righteousness.

romans 1:16 , God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek; 17 for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”

Galatians 3:11 Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.”

Hebrews 10:38 “But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,” and, “if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

What is the righteousness that we are being judged by?
Romans 3:20 Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin. 2:1 But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22 yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith
We are judged by our faith. Its our faith which determines a persons righteousness according to God. And if a person 'shrinks back' from that faith, then they will loose Gods favor. So salvation is not a 'once saved always saved' scenario.

Dont be fooled into thinking that a mere 'profession' of faith is enough... we have to 'apply' our faith and 'obey' Gods laws and 'love' our neighbors....these are the fruits which identify a person who has faith.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

 

[jiggyfly]

Careful though! Are you using those scriptures to deny others?

Yes, Christ has paid the price and brought us before God with all our sins gone. But that means we need to be faithfull now. A woman is about to be stoned, and Pharisees ask who should throw the first stone. Christ says 'the one who has never sinned'. They leave. He says, being the one who has never sinned, 'I don't condemn you either' freeing her of her PAST sins, then says 'Go, and sin no more'.

We have been given much, and we are to use that to learn much.

Faith without works is dead. And we were called to good works. If it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, doing works prepared in advance by the Father, how can that be saving by the flesh? It is all of God, but we must walk in it and be faithful.

[sup]12[/sup] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Jesus has laid hold of something for us, but that is only half the truth, the other half is that we must lay hold of it. He has made it possible, and it is only possible through him. But now that it is possible, what excuse can we have?

[sup]13[/sup] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [sup]14[/sup] I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul himself did not think he had attained. Yet based on a few verses we build a Christianity that we have already attained and it's all over.

That woman was still under the old covenant.The new covenant where Christ takes away the sins of the world was not introduced until Acts when the HolySpirit was sent. Be careful to consider context.

Paul said that we are without fault in the presence of God because of what Jesus did on the cross, God is at peace with everything. Do you want to change that? Aren't you satisfied with Christ's redemptive work?

The 'once saved always saved' Satanic doctrine will lead MANY to Hell forever.

But pompous, religious acts void of love will lead some away?

 

[Prentis]

Again, you cannot take one side of scripture and throw out the other half.

There was a man who had debt to the King. He kneeled before the king begging for forgiveness; he and his family could not repay, but if he went to prison, his whole family would starve. The King forgave him (as you say). But then another man owed to him a small sum, and begged him also, saying 'if you take me to prison my family will starve, please have mercy'. And he did not have mercy but brought him before the courts and had him go to prison. When the King heard this, he had the first servant thrown to prison, and required that he pay every last penny (which he couldn't).

I know, it's about forgiveness. But can you see the clear pattern? Even though man is forgiven his past sins it can all be taken away.

What about the parable of the talents? Does no one believe that part either?

What about Paul saying 'woe is me if I do not preach the gospel', do we all just think he's being over-dramatic?

What about 'to whom much is given, much is required', is that a lie?

I say this with love and respect jiggyfly, but modern christianity cancels half of scripture by it's interpretation of the other half. Yes, there is a free gift, forgiveness of past sins and new life... But for a purpose, that we be fruitful to God, if we are not (considering we have all the tools and help) we will be cut-off. :mellow:

 

[Robbie]

We're not taking one side to the scriptures Prentis...

We're giving Christ the glory He deserves for being our salvation and because that's our foundation we understand the scriptures.

You have a twisted perception of the scriptures because you're still not humbled in the sight of the Lord so you read them with the eyes of pride.

With man salvation is impossible... with God it is possible... God's provision for salvation is Jesus... but you don't want to humble yourself and accept that... and you think you're being spiritual by basically saying, "Oh is it not possible for God to make us walk perfect?" but the thing is that's not how God chose to save us... He chose to save us by sending His Son... which I understand because that's very humbling... and a place of humility is the safest place for humans to be... and the reality is if God gave us the strength to be these perfect righteous beings without being clothed in His Son's righteousness maybe we'd all be the least perfect we could possibly be because our pride would get to the point where we would start saying, "I will be like the most High" And we all know where that ends up...

 

[jiggyfly]

Again, you cannot take one side of scripture and throw out the other half.

There was a man who had debt to the King. He kneeled before the king begging for forgiveness; he and his family could not repay, but if he went to prison, his whole family would starve. The King forgave him (as you say). But then another man owed to him a small sum, and begged him also, saying 'if you take me to prison my family will starve, please have mercy'. And he did not have mercy but brought him before the courts and had him go to prison. When the King heard this, he had the first servant thrown to prison, and required that he pay every last penny (which he couldn't).

I know, it's about forgiveness. But can you see the clear pattern? Even though man is forgiven his past sins it can all be taken away.

What about the parable of the talents? Does no one believe that part either?

What about Paul saying 'woe is me if I do not preach the gospel', do we all just think he's being over-dramatic?

What about 'to whom much is given, much is required', is that a lie?

I say this with love and respect jiggyfly, but modern christianity cancels half of scripture by it's interpretation of the other half. Yes, there is a free gift, forgiveness of past sins and new life... But for a purpose, that we be fruitful to God, if we are not (considering we have all the tools and help) we will be cut-off. :mellow:

You actually believe that you can maintain Christ's righteousness?
Rather than trying to walk like God I'll be content to just walking with Him.

 

[Prentis]

We're not taking one side to the scriptures Prentis...

We're giving Christ the glory He deserves for being our salvation and because that's our foundation we understand the scriptures.

You have a twisted perception of the scriptures because you're still not humbled in the sight of the Lord so you read them with the eyes of pride.

With man salvation is impossible... with God it is possible... God's provision for salvation is Jesus... but you don't want to humble yourself and accept that... and you think you're being spiritual by basically saying, "Oh is it not possible for God to make us walk perfect?" but the thing is that's not how God chose to save us... He chose to save us by sending His Son... which I understand because that's very humbling... and a place of humility is the safest place for humans to be... and the reality is if God gave us the strength to be these perfect righteous beings without being clothed in His Son's righteousness maybe we'd all be the least perfect we could possibly be because our pride would get to the point where we would start saying, "I will be like the most High" And we all know where that ends up...

Are all things possible, Robbie, or just salvation?

I'm not talking about doing our own works. I'm saying, God has made a way, and we can die, and have Christ live through us. We must choose that, daily. I'm not saying we have to have it all together. I'm saying we must repent when we see we have fallen off, cry out to God to show us so we can grow.

Can you not see that it would only be more glory to God if he could make a man like him, because he LIVES through him, and not less glory?

God wants to live through us. If we claim he can do all things, how can we claim he cannot walk through us? And how can we then, if we have experienced this, say that we don't have to choose it? We must die daily.

You actually believe that you can maintain Christ's righteousness?
Rather than trying to walk like God I'll be content to just walking with Him.

No. I believe Christ in us can make us like him that we would walk like him, and yes walk in his righteousness. If we die to ourselves completely and allow God to train us, as you say, walk with him, He is indeed capable of all things through us.

People believe Christ can save them eternally, but they don't believe he can save them NOW from the power of sin and of the flesh.

Christ in us is the hope of glory. Not the certainty.

Eternal life? Yes. In glory or in shame, though? If we are indeed Christ's, we haver received much. If you do the math, that means we owe much.

 

[7angels]

you all have good points. prentis i know where you are coming from but robbie i am not sure what it is you are trying to say. it sounds like you are talking of salvation comes from Christ and everything we do need to be from God. whether that be praising God or just doing house chores. correct me if i am wrong so i can understand where it is you are coming from. thanks

 

[Robbie]

Prentis... what you're saying is Christ on the cross and the covering of His blood is not enough in and of itself to assure you of your salvation right? That you have to add to Him your righteous works in order to be saved... right?

Then because I don't agree... and I say it's only Christ and His blood that saves you and it has nothing to do with you... you keep acting like because all things are possible with God that it must not be right that Christ alone is our salvation.

But what you don't realize you're doing is you're basically saying, "Because all things are possible with God salvation must be about me being perfect because that's the way I think it should be"

But the thing is God didn't choose to save people by making them perfect according to their works... so it doesn't matter what you think... I mean is there any record of anyone being perfect ever other than Jesus?

And to me it makes perfect sense why God perfects us through His Son and not through our works.

Because we are perfected through His Son we realize He's our righteousness and it's not our own... that causes us to realize that our life and salvation are completely dependent upon Him... which makes us completely dependent upon Him... when we realize we are completely dependent upon Him that's when we truly abide in Him... when we abide in Him we bare fruit... to abide in Him is not to try and make ourselves perfect through our works... to abide in Him is to be completely dependent upon His work on the cross and the covering of His blood for our salvation... the word abide means to have a relationship with... not to have perfect works... and as Jiggyfly said... it's about walking with Him... it's about abiding in Him... it's not about adding your works to His blood in order to save you... that's the way which seems right to mans pride but just leads to death...

So you're greatly mistaken man...

No 7angels... I didn't say anything about chores or worship...

 

[brionne]

Prentis... what you're saying is Christ on the cross and the covering of His blood is not enough in and of itself to assure you of your salvation right? That you have to add to Him your righteous works in order to be saved... right?.

his blood is a provision ONLY for those who put faith in it.

No one has the 'right' to salvation. We are sinners, therefore the only 'right' we have is death. That is all we deserve because we are sinners.
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

But through Christ, God is offering us an 'undeserved kindness'.....its the opportunity to keep living rather then the death we deserve:
Romans 3:, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus. 25 God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was in order to exhibit his own righteousness, because he was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past while God was exercising forbearance; 26 so as to exhibit his own righteousness in this present season, that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man that has faith in Jesus.

If you think you 'deserve' life, or if you think you have a 'right' to salvation, you are mistaken. Salvation is not something we earn, its not something we deserve....its a 'free gift of undeserved kindness' on Gods part. To show our appreciation for his offer, we must prove ourselves worthy of it and the only way to prove ourselves worthy of his gift is to imitate his son. Jesus was righteous by virtue of his conduct, his love, his faith... we must be the same.

 

[goodshepard55]

Romans3:

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:

5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Righteousness is a gift from God as the Word says..it comes through faith in Christ Jesus to ALL that BELIEVE...DO NOT have to work for it just trust God...The Word of God is the Truth...

 

[Prentis]

Turn a blind eye to half the scripture if you will, guys.

Yes, salvation is a free gift. But the definition you give salvation makes that cancel other scriptures. Salvation means you don't die, and are rescued out of your current situation. It doesn't mean, on the other hand, you are assured of glory with God.

Christ is the hope of glory, not the assurance.

If we think Jesus is a magic Jesus that somehow hides all our flaws and makes it that, even though we are NO DIFFERENT than the rest of the world, God favors us more, then we have lost the truth of Jesus. Jesus says 'He who endures to the end will be saved', 'Leave everything you have, and come follow me'. Most of all, 'he who tries to save his life will lose it'.

How have we come to claiming that God giving us much makes us responsible for little? Or do we not believe anymore that Christ is ACTUALLY powerful enough to make us overcome?

 

[Robbie]

You sound like a Pastor Prentis who's memorized a lot of things to say in response to certain topics but has absolutely no clue what he's actually talking about...

Just because you can repeat something doesn't mean you understand it.. and it's especially dangerous when you're repeating someone who's wrong...

I mean you're really gonna compare people believing Jesus on cross and His blood is what saves them to thinking that He's a magic Jesus who just hides our flaws? I mean really?... you're making some dangerous statements...

I mean dude... I gotta say... you definitely shouldn't be trusting in your own righteousness to save you... because you're kinda gnarly... haha