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Featured Does all of Israel have to be restored before the Tribulation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Josho, Sep 24, 2020.

  1. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    So the question for this thread is...

    Does all of Israel have to be restored before the Tribulation?

    When we read the Old Testament, we find out that old Israel was bigger than modern day Israel, we also find out that the Promised Land's boundaries is also a lot bigger than modern day Israel.

    In Jeremiah we find out that Israel will be restored.

    Jeremiah 30
    This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”

    Then in Romans 11:26 we find out all Israel will be saved.

    And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.

    So do these prophecies have to be fulfilled before the Tribulation?
     
  2. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Please define who is Israel.
    Remember that the Jewish State of Israel only represents the House of Judah. They, themselves fully admit this truth.
     
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  3. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Well would this define Israel's original boundaries?

    Genesis 15:18-21

    On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates- "the Kenites, the Kennezzites, the Kadmonites, "the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, "the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

    So the original promised boundaries stretched all the way from Nile River to the Euphrates, the other side of the Jordan was also part of the Promised Land.

    So would that have to all be restored to Israel before the tribulation?
     
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  4. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Not sure how accurate this boundaries are of the Promised Land on this map, but this is what I found on Google Images. Which looks like the whole distance of the Euphrates and the Nile on each side.

    You can see that part of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, modern day Israel, even a little bit of Turkey and Kuwait is meant to be a part of the Promised Land.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  5. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Just saying....

    It would seem that some Biblical prophecy still needs to be fulfilled before the Tribulation even happens...

    I am currently reading Jeremiah, and not everything in Jeremiah has been fulfilled yet I believe.
     
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  6. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah Chapter 30

    "Restoration. Particular, the People."

    This Bible Study is written by Roger Christopherson, and it's transcription/ location is provided by http://www.theseason.org

    This chapter is addressed to those living in the latter days, and we will read in the final verse of this chapter, "in the latter days ye shall consider it." We are living in those end times, and the things written about those times are happening around us today. The one world system that will draw all nations to itself has now been functioning for the past fifty years, and is called the United Nations. God is instructing us what we shall do during this time, and there is not one word that would give anyone hope of any fly away of the saints. In fact quite the contrary.

    Chapter thirty has to do with the restoration of both houses, the house of Judah which is the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, mixed with some Levites, and a heavy mixture with the Kenites. They are the ones called the Jews of today. The other house is the house of Israel, and we know them today as the Christian nations around the world. The time will come very shortly when both of these houses will be joined together as one, as Ezekiel wrote about in Ezekiel 37:15-19.

    Ezekiel 37:19 "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand."

    It will be wonderful time, and this event has not happened at this time.

    Jeremiah 30:1 "The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,"

    Jeremiah 30:2 "Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book."

    The book of Jeremiah is that Book that God told him to write. We are reading the instructions from God to us, through the pen of Jeremiah.

    Jeremiah 30:3 "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."

    These are two separate nation, the house or nation of Israel, and the house or nation of Judah. It was 722 B.C. when the ten tribes of the house or nation of Israel were scattered through the Caucasus Mountains, and migrated to the places where they now exist as a nation, and they have never returned.

    The other house or nation of Judah has in part returned to reestablish their tiny nation of Israel, but their protection comes from their brothers, of the house of Israel, the Christian nations of today. God tells us how we shall identify the house of Israel in the latter days in Hosea 1:10; "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and It shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not my pPeople,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God.' "

    God's Word is true, and the House of Israel has become that numerous down through the years. They have been scattered to where this house now covers most Europe, and the Americas, as well as many other areas. These people do not know their identity, and merely call themselves "Caucasians" after the migration event of their being scattered. It is in those places where those nations exist that they are known as the sons of the living God.

    Jesus Christ came out of the tomb, and defeated death; He is the "living God", and those that are said to be of Jesus Christ are called Christians. Friend, the Christian nations are the sons of the living God. Israel, which is the Christian nations will return to the land that God gave to their forefathers, and the two sticks of Israel and Judah will be joined.

    Though many look at this chapter as being historic, God is looking to the future, even to our time. How will they be held captive? God will hold them captive in their hearts through their love for the Heavenly Father. He will reveal their identity to them, and they will see that His love is true.

    Jeremiah 30:4 "And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah."

    By this time of study, you should be aware that God is addressing the Christian nations and the Jews separately. In much of the teaching given today, there is no separation in understanding between the two houses. So we are about to read of important events concerning these two houses from the mouth the living God, which will affect both the Jews and the Christian nations.

    Jeremiah 30:5 "For thus saith the Lord; "We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace."

    Remember that Jeremiah told those men and women of Judah, that were taken into captivity that they can be in peace while in captivity. Friend, this applies also to those of our day, going into the captivity of the Babylon of the Book of Revelation. We can live in peace while in the captivity of Satan's deception. God is saying, when I hear your voices in that day, they are voices "of trembling, of fear and not of peace."

    Jeremiah 30:6 "Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?"

    God is asking here, "Is it possible that a man can deliver a child?" Anyone know better then that, for a man doesn't have the womb or physical makeup to bear a child. What God is saying is that even the men look like they are in the pain of childbirth like the women. They are grabbing themselves like they are giving birth and having labor pains.

    My friend, it is up to you today whether you shall have the peace that God promised in these final days, or if you are going to look like one of these pale faces that has worked himself or herself into a travail the equivalent of a woman in childbirth. The time of the great tribulation, also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, can be a time of great blessings and one to look forward to. IF YOU WILL DO IT GODS WAY. Those that will have the trouble will be the ones that will listen to the Shemaiahs and the Hananiahs, the false prophets of our day. The pain that will exist will be in confusion and deception.

    Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

    God is talking about the "Lord's day", and on that great day that marks the end of Jacob's trouble, it will be a time like this old earth has never seen before and nor it ever see again. The time of Jacob's trouble has been shortened for the Elect of God's sake, and when it is all over, God will save them out of it. Jacob is the father of all the tribes, which comprise both houses [Israel and Judah], and when the final trump sounds there will be a joining of all the tribes back together.

    The time of Jacob's trouble is a time of correction, and it is a time that God shows His love for you by disciplining his children. When you reach the point where God doesn't correct you, then you have gone beyond the point of any touch with the Heavenly Father. You give the love to Him, to get the blessings in return, and you can not fool God, for He can read your mind and know your intent.

    Jeremiah 30:8 "For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:"

    This is again talking about the Lord's Day, the day of the coming of Jesus Christ. It is the time of the sounding of the seventh and final trump, when all men shall be changed to their spiritual bodies, and the kingdom of God is set up on this earth. We call that time the Millennium age that will run for one thousand years, and be a time of strict discipline and teaching. The false teachers will be gone, as well as Satan and his fallen angels. This is the day spoken of here.

    This is the end time and all flesh will be gone. Satan the Antichrist will have already ruled, and have been placed in the pit. This time has not happened yet, and that yoke of Babylon that started in Jeremiah's day will stretch all the way to the end of this earth age and will come to a close. That day is still in the future sense, in the very near future.
     
  7. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Maintaining the view that Israel is an ethnic minority in the general geography of Palestine and that's where the action will be, can only miss the Great Tribulation "that if it were not shortened (for the sake of the elect) no flesh would survive"
     
  8. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Josho, it all depends on what you mean by "all of Israel being Restored before the tribulation?"

    As for the "Promised Land" as defined in Gen 15:17-21, that was given to Abraham's descendants over a period of time from when they crossed the river Jordan up and until the end of King Solomon's reign after which it was progressively stripped from them and finally the land of Judah was taken from them and became a devastated and desolated country.

    In Genesis 13:14-15 I see the English paraphrase should be understood in this way: - 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are — northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land/earth which you see I give to you and/, {that entity,} I will give to your descendants forever/for a long period of time {which is at a vanishing point of time in the future}.

    The vanishing point of the "forever" with respect to Promised Land occurred in 70 AD.

    In Genesis 15:16, Abraham is told that some of his descendants will return in their own strength to the Land of Canaan without the help of the Lord, in the fourth Age, i.e. 4.000 years after the birth of Isaac.

    However, in Ezekiel 34:12-13, my understanding of what God said that He would do to gather them to Himself can be expressed in this manner: - 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them to/into their own land/fertile field; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, {metaphor for Israel’s religion}, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country/earth., where they are found by Him.

    There are two tribulation found in Scripture. There is Jacob's tribulation, which is drawing to an end in our near future, and has been inflicted on the descendants of Jacob from the time of the passing of the 490 years grace to put an end to their sins and to also repent of their sins which the nation did not do, and so the two ages of the visitation of their iniquities upon the fathers children and the children's children began from that time. The second period of tribulation occurs after Satan and the five beasts are released from the Bottomless pit during the last 20 - 30 years of the Millennium Age.

    Now the words of Jer 30:1-3 paints a slightly different picture if we translates one word correctly. This is how I understand this portion of chapter 30 should read.

    30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 "Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land/earth that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'"

    In causing the descendants to return to the earth that I, God, gave to their fathers, God is speaking of the return back to a relationship with their Father God. This passage is not talking about a return to the Land of Canaan, i.e. part of the "Promised Land," but rather the nation of Israel returning to a relationship with God that will result in their inheritance of the whole earth, as is also promised to the NT Saints.

    I would recommend that you find a good interlinear and research the above quoted passages for yourself and see if my suggested changes to the tradition of our English Translations is justifiable because of the meaning of the respective Hebrew words, or if I am just a wacky quack who you can ignore.

    Shalom
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  9. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    What I asked was for you to define the people who are the true Israelites of God. As distinct from those people who call themselves Israel. Jesus said who they belonged to in Revelation 2:9 Also Romans 2:29

    The boundaries of the new Christian nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will be all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates.
     
  10. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    It happens after the tribulation, in the OT it is called the time of jacobs trouble,

    Jer 30:
    For behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the Lord. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”

    4 Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah.

    5 “For thus says the Lord:

    ‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
    Of fear, and not of peace.
    6 Ask now, and see,
    Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
    So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
    Like a woman in labor,
    And all faces turned pale?
    7 Alas! For that day is great,
    So that none is like it;
    And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
    But he shall be saved out of it.


    8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
    Says the Lord of hosts,
    That I will break his yoke from your neck,
    And will burst your bonds;
    Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

    9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
    And David their king,
    Whom I will raise up for them.

    10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
    ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
    For behold, I will save you from afar,
    And your seed from the land of their captivity.
    Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
    And no one shall make him afraid.

    11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
    Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
    Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
    But I will correct you in justice,
    And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’
     
  11. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Amen, it has not.

    if we read revelation, the woman is sent to the wilderness where she is protected. And satan or the beast goes after the rest of the world, namely her offspring or the gentile believers) and it is this time of jacobs trouble that causes her to repent, in the end like Paul said in Romans 11. The time of the gentile has been full filled and all israel will be saved
     
  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    No. Quite the opposite. The Tribulation comes first, then the redemption and restoration of Israel.

    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (Zech 12:10,11)

    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
    (Zech 13:9)
     
  13. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Would you say the restoration of Israel and Judah happens in the Millennium or in the new Heaven?
     
  14. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    It happens when Jesus returns in my view, as the passage says, he restores Israel and punishes the nations who hurt them (we see that many times in the OT) and he set up his Throne where all who endure to the end Worship him, even comming once a year to worship him, and those who do not are punished.

    Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

    and this happens after Jesus himself restores them

    zech 14:
    6 It shall come to pass in that day
    That there will be no light;
    The lights will diminish.
    7 It shall be one day
    Which is known to the Lord—
    Neither day nor night.
    But at evening time it shall happen
    That it will be light.

    8 And in that day it shall be
    That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
    Half of them toward the eastern sea
    And half of them toward the western sea;
    In both summer and winter it shall occur.
    9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
    In that day it shall be—
    “The Lord is one,”
    And His name one.

    10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and fromthe Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

    11 The people shall dwell in it;
    And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
    But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

    Take this with Ez 37

    Ez 37 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
     
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  15. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    So since you agreed with me on this part that not all prophecy has been fulfilled yet before the Tribulation, is there any other prophecies that still need to fulfilled before the Tribulation takes place?
     
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  16. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    I can just look at Matt 24 where Jesus gives us these signs. He says there will be birth pangs immediately preceding great tribulation (natural disasters, hunger, disease etc where they exponentially get worse. But the end is not yet)

    the prophecies n my view would not start until the abomination of desolation takes place. Then there will be tribulation. The is I think the next real sign.
     
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  17. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    I have a question that should be considered, "Does God need to have control of an area of land to be able to establish an ever lasting kingdom among the people on the planet which we call "earth?" The answer is NO.

    In Daniel 2:34-35, how can a mountain fill the whole earth? Is the word translated as "mountain" a metaphor used to describe the "Religion" for want of a better word, as a religion can fill the whole world but it is impossible for a literal "mountain" to do so? Read the two verse below and try to explain them away literally: -

    34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.​

    Then let us now consider another two verses, Daniel 2:44-45 from the same prophetic passage, and answer the question as to where God states that His ever lasting kingdom will be established?

    44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure." ​

    In this passage God tells us the relative timing of when He will establish His ever lasting kingdom, which is "during the time of those kings," but he does not tell us where on the surface of the earth He will do so. What He does tell us that the kingdom is not left to other people, but this kingdom, based on a "stone/foundational rock" will destroy every other kingdom.

    This passage is speaking of a "spiritual event/battle" for the minds of the people, but the kings being referred to are the heavenly Beasts/spiritual being, that manifest/establishes themselves in the sea of the people such that their influence is over people and these people can swarm over the landscape.

    If we read the above verses, 44-45, literally then it is difficult to comprehend what has been written and we will not see the spiritual battle that will occur during this present time.

    For those of us who can see the spiritual battle that is raging in the Middle East and in the other nations of the earth, we can see how the fake news is being called the "truth" and the actual "truth" of this spiritual battle is being buried by the literal explanations, called conspiracy theories, to explain away the spiritual elements of the battles that are going on around us.

    Is our relationship with God primarily a spiritual or literal relationship?

    When we can answer that question, the answers to the OP can become real to us.

    Shalom
     
  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I think we have to get past the deception of Satan that this planet is just a "speck of dust". This earth is all the physical creation there is. We are not on a planet. God created a single heaven and earth, 4 dimensional cube, bound by time. This cube contains heaven above, the earth, and the area below the earth, sheol. This earth is all the reality there is. God is in full control of what happens to the geography of earth and the divisions of the nations. When God and the Lamb appear, this geography will change back to one single continent, so technically, it will be like a mountain filling in all the current "empty" areas known as oceans and seas.
     
  19. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking literally or figuratively in your post?
     
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  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    sounds like divining to me!
    THE Tribulation?
    ok
     
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