I only count 2. Did one go missing? - LOL
(might be in the same place as the missing "n" in alignment)
Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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(might be in the same place as the missing "n" in alignment)
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Has it occurred to you, you give the devil a front row seat even though it's through mockery? He loves to consume our thinking anyway he can and he laughs with glee when he gets those who call themselves the followers of Jesus to do his work.
Both of those terms come from the Revelation of John. Specifically, from one verse. Rev. 20:14 see below.
The book is chock full of metaphor and symbolism. Probably not a wise place to create doctrine.
And in context, is seems contradictory. First, death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Then anyone whose name was not found written
in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Where did they end up exactly?
Death and Hades, the place of the dead, were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
If there is no more death, nor place of the dead, who goes, and how does the lake of fire work?
Makes no sense.
Revelation 20:13-15 NIV
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them,
and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
What's your solution?
A gag order to prevent reasonable discussion about questions of faith.
Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. ???
The churches we were raised in have subjected us to horrendous ideas about God's character.
Should we be silent and not speak up? And then accuse those who do, of partnering with the devil. (sigh)
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I was speaking to Patrick's mockery and the fine job he's been doing inadvertently promoting the devil.
A counterfeit hundred dollar bill is not recognised by focusing on it. It is recognised by being familiar with the genuine article
Counterfeits and decoys are everywhere; only familiarity with the real deal will make them recognisable.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
There are those who die in childbirth who have had no opportunity to make choices. However, when people are able to make adult choices, or even younger, allowing for immaturity and influences, then people are given to make eternal choices. Those who appear to reject Christ may not actually be doing that. But after death our fate has already been determined.
Am I in the same boat, or are you more comfortable with the way I am responding/presenting?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
So, you don't believe in a forever burning hell? (good)
Be careful though...
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown UR, - LOL
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You are misreading this verse to appear to agree with Universalism. To "restore everything" has a specific, technical meaning here, relating to biblical prophecy. The theme in the Bible was God's promise to Abraham to give him a nation of faith, as well as a fatherhood over many nations of faith.
The nation, Israel, fell, and the Prophets promised her "restoration." According to the Prophets, this restoration of Israel will include a change in the entire world. But never was the implication that every individual would get "saved."
Nations can be restored after war, and can even be restored to the Christian religion. But evangelical "Salvation" is a very individual thing, and means something more than just a national restoration. Evangelical Salvation is a person's choice to live in union with God, making Him Lord over every aspect of one's life. Obviously, not all do that now, and I seriously doubt that will ever be the case in this fallen world.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The "wrath of God" is not absent in CU., as the Cross is the Wrath of God.
Jesus endured it.
So, CU understands this, but does not understand that the Cross is an invitation to receive.
Its give to all to BELIEVE, by faith, and once you put your FAITH in Christ then God deals with your sin, and restores you unto Himself, spiritually, as "born again".
Each person has to decide.
Each person is given the opportunity as BIRTH gives you the opportunity to trust in Christ.
Will you?
Its up to you, and God will honor your choice, now and forever.
People who went to Hell today, are thinking...."what did i do to deserve this". ?
And that is not the question.
The Question is..>"why didnt you trust in Christ"., as that is the reason you went to Hell.
There are no born again in Hell.
There are no Christ rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No, I don't. It is one of the very worst suppositions made by bad apologists.
It certainly was a reason I rejected Christainity for decades.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
weather you like it or not, make zero difference. God does exactly as He desires, and is not accountable to anyone.
The Person Who spoke of the eternal punishment of the unbelieving lost, the most in the Bible, with clear warnings, is God Incarnate, The Lord Jesus Christ.
In the Old Testament, the SAME God of the New Testament, carried out His Righteous Judgement on the rebellious people of Korah, who had sinned against Him. In Numbers chapter 16, we are told that God opened up the ground below these people, and destroyed that ALL of them! In this God is 100% Justified and Righteous!
In the New Testament, God on earth, Jesus Christ, warned those who rebelled against Him and His Gospel Message, that their fate would be, "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42). This very strong language used by Jesus Christ, is to show plainly the EXTREME suffering of these. It is NOT simply a "figure of speech", but the reality of the destination of ALL those who reject Him as the ONLY Saviour, and refuse to repent of their sins and believe in the Gospel of Him.
St. SteVen said:
There will be an Age of correction/Restoration/redemption to bring everyone in line with God.
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
There is certainly MORE to "everything" than Israel.
There will be an Age of correction/Restoration/redemption to bring everyone in line with God.
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Why would you say that restoring Israel is to "restore everything"?
There is certainly MORE to "everything" than Israel.
That seems pretty self-serving for Christianity to make such a claim. IMHO
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The Original Autographs of the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, are Inspired by God the Holy Spirit, and is without ANY errors, being Inerrant and Infallible. Anyone who does not fully believe in this, has no real Christian Faith, as it would be in a faulty Word of God and Gospel Message.
Wasn't sure what rating to give you on that. I agreed as much as I disagreed. - LOL
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